Dragon skill points

[schreier]

I was trying to stat out a Dragon antagonist .... reading the profile, it says:

"All dragons have skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) × (Hit Dice + 3)."

Should you "level" up the hit dice, with scaling intelligence, or use the "max" intelligence for the age category.

For example, a red wyrmling has Int 10. Goes up to 12 at very young, 14 at juvenille, and 16 at adult. So if you had an adult red dragon, would the skill points be:

7HD + 3 at Int 10 (Wyrmling + 3), 6HD at Int 12 (Very Young and Young), 6HD at Int 14 (Juvenille and Young Adult), and 3HD at Int 16 (Adult) = 60 + 42 + 42 + 24 = 168 skill points

OR use 14 Int the entire time = 200 skill points (80 + 48 + 48 + 24)

Oh wait - the "minimum 1" throws me off -- so really, it would be 16 at intelligence 12 in this case, so you would add 10 more to the base I guess (178 skill points)

My guy says that first is more correct, but I can't find a specific reference.


Thanks in advance
schreier

[Uncle Pine]

When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence.

You should use the Int modifier the dragon had at each specific HD to calculate its skill points. However, that could be a little annoying if you need to go through a lot of age categories/Int increases, so considering the dragon will only get to use about 2% of its skills before being slain for good you might want to approximately calculate the skill points it has unless you're aiming to give it a specific feat or PrC and want to finangle all the prerequisites for a full legal build. I generally end up assigning ranks in Spot, Listen, Spellcraft, Diplomacy/Intimidate/Bluff and/or Sense Motive and a few Knowledges and then write etc. in the statblock.

[KillianHawkeye]

Intelligence gains do not affect skill points retroactively. You use the Intelligence score they had for each HD to determine their skill points per level.


7HD + 3 at Int 10 (Wyrmling + 3), 6HD at Int 12 (Very Young and Young), 6HD at Int 14 (Juvenille and Young Adult), and 3HD at Int 16 (Adult) = 60 + 42 + 42 + 24 = 168 skill points

This is the correct method.


Oh wait - the "minimum 1" throws me off -- so really, it would be 16 at intelligence 12 in this case, so you would add 10 more to the base I guess (178 skill points)

No, the "minimum 1" is for the (6 + Int mod) calculation, to ensure that even incredibly stupid characters gain at least one skill point per level. At Int 10, a dragon gains 6 skill points per level.

[Shalist]

When a dragon’s Intelligence score increases due to aging, it gains additional skill points for its new Intelligence score retroactivelyNeed to read the whole passage, basically it only applies to their RHD.

A few other things worth a quick mention:


Dragons have a +2 competence bonus to the Appraise checks (or Intelligence checks made to appraise an item).


Dragons with a a climb speed have +8 racial bonus on Climb checks (www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/climb.htm), and dragons with a swim speed have a +8 racial bonus to swim checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/swim.htm).

Lastly, for dragons with swim speeds (and arguably, burrow speeds):


Varying Degrees of Cover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover)

In some cases, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Hide checks.

Underwater Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#underwaterCombat)

Attacks from Land

Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Landbound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.

So if only their head were poking up out of the water ( or arguably / sand / snow), they'd have 'improved cover' which gives a +10 to their hide check.

[KillianHawkeye]

Oh yeah, I forgot that dragons get a special pass on retroactive skill points. Nothing else does AFAIK.


Also, any creature with a climb or a swim speed gains a +8 racial bonus on the appropriate check. That's just a function of having those movement modes.

[Uncle Pine]

Oh wow, I didn't know that. Good to know that the developers realized it was a pain to assign skill points the other way. Now we just need to check whether any statted dragon printed before the Draconomicon followed that rule already. :smalltongue:

[schreier]

Glad I asked!

So for dragons only - take the max Int from age category, and apply that Intelligence to all of the Racial HD ... class levels (if any) are treated normally - so the Int at the time. And any Int gains (for example, from books or wishes) only apply to the age that they occurred and forward (i.e. only age category Int is retroactive).

[lightningcat]

Wait, you don't retroactively increase skills for permanent increases in Intelligence?



When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence.


I've never noticed that before. Now, I have to wonder if anyone else in my old group knew about it.

[Thurbane]

It's a relatively common houserule to ignore that and allow retroactive skill points.

[Durzan]

I use that house rule, as its a pain in the arse for me and my players otherwise.

[Calthropstu]

I was always under the impression that skill points were acquired retroactively upon gaining stat boosts.

When I level my character from 7 to 8 and bump my int from 15 to 16, I gain an extra 8 skill points... why would this be different for a dragon?

Edit: Just checked, 3.5 has it so they are not retroactive. Pathfinder it IS retroactive..

[KillianHawkeye]

Pathfinder also lets magic items that grant Int bonuses give you one or more extra skills (although I believe the skills are predetermined at the time the item is crafted). D&D does not.

[martixy]

I would suggest sticking to a skill system where A+B = B+A and (A+B)*C = A*C+B*C.

Because currently none of those is true for 3.5.

Pathfinder's satisfies both though, with the class skill bonus and the retroactive skill point increases.

[schreier]

I was reviewing the Draconomicon, and in the advanced section - it says "Feats: Like ordinary dragons, advanced dragons receive one feat for every 4 Hit Dice they have. Any feats gained after the dragon reaches old age can be epic feats (see the descriptions earlier in this chapter)."

In the SRD, it says "Like ordinary dragons, advanced dragons receive one feat for every 3 Hit Dice they have. Feats gained after the dragon attains great wyrm status can be epic feats."

Is the Draconomicon a typo? A reference to 3.0?

[Thurbane]

It certainly sounds like an erroneous reference to how 3.0 handled monster feats.

Draconomicon doesn't appear to have an errata file?

[KillianHawkeye]

Is the Draconomicon a typo? A reference to 3.0?

I would probably call it an editing error. Dragons in 3.0 did gain a feat every 4 HD, before 3.5 made the feat progression universal for all creature types.

[schreier]

Sorry about posting again ... I just realized that, in all of the "advancing" language, it does not address the saves.

I can't find language anywhere addressing save improvement ... am I missing anything?

[KillianHawkeye]

Dragons have all Good saves. Increase them accordingly (based on their Hit Dice).

[Remuko]

Sorry about posting again ... I just realized that, in all of the "advancing" language, it does not address the saves.

I can't find language anywhere addressing save improvement ... am I missing anything?

Dragons have "good" saves in all 3 types. Same as a Monk.

[schreier]

Thanks! I was sure that I had read that somewhere, but then began questioning myself when I looked at their advancement through great warm... there were really strange advances. I guess it changes to standard good later?

As an example, blue dragons start at 6 5 5 in saves, but end at 29 21 27 ...

Edit: oops ... forgot to factor in the attribute bonuses ... so straight good saves

Thanks!

[Draconium]

Thanks! I was sure that I had read that somewhere, but then began questioning myself when I looked at their advancement through great warm... there were really strange advances. I guess it changes to standard good later?

As an example, blue dragons start at 6 5 5 in saves, but end at 29 21 27 ...

The listed saves on the dragons' tables include their ability modifiers. That is, the number listed is equal the base save + the relavent ability score modifier. That's probably why you got confused.

[schreier]

Yep... thanks!