Seriously, **** Factotums [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Grod_The_Giant

2017-02-06, 04:40 PM

Having just spent several hours trying to build a serviceable mid-op Factotum... seriously, **** that entire class. They can't do anything well. (Note: this is more a rant for my own edification than anything else)

Forget Int-SAD. You don't get Int-to-AC until 16th; before then if you try to rely on Cunning Insight or Cunning Defense for anything more than an occasional bonus you'll run dry in a round or two. So you need Dex for armor and attacks, probably; you'll need Con for hit points unless you can use severely-overpowered Dragon content; you'll probably need Strength for damage with melee weapons or composite bows, unless you can spare a bunch of feats for Dex-to-Damage or have some sort of voodoo for Iajutsu Focus. Then you want a bit of Wisdom for Opportunistic Piety, and probably some Cha for skills, including the aforementioned IF. Speaking of...
Iajutsu Focus, I have come to the conclusion, is a joke. I have to assume people who push it as some great source of power are confusing "flat-footed" with "denied your Dex bonus," because I seriously cannot find any way of reliably activating it more than once. You have to either burn actions/or and gold like water to keep using wands of grease or bags of marbles and hope that your foes don't have many ranks of balance, or gold and prayer to hope they fail the save against distract assailants, or you have to spend huge numbers of skill points and feat slots cobbling together limited, situational crap like Flick of the Wrist and Sudden Draw and hope to get one shot/round. Oh, and it's a Charisma skill, so it needs points in a tertiary stat.
Knowledge Devotion is a lovely boost, most-of-the-weapon-focus-tree-in-a-single-feat, but there are six monster-identifying skills. So much for being the ultimate skillmonkey, because that's more than half your points down the party-know-it-all drain. I mean, you can dabble, sure, but if you want more than a minor +2 boost you'd better be prepared to give up a lot of your skillmonkey hopes-and-dreams. And then what do you do with it?
Spells are a losing game most of your career; it's really not until 8th-10th level that you have anything like enough slots of high enough level to make a difference, and even then anything but a 4th level caster will be showing you up.
Archery will eat up all your feats in short order, and you're still not very good at it-- medium BAB, no bonus feats, no really good reliable sources of bonus damage. Knowledge Devotion is okay, but even a plain Fighter will show you up at your game.
Melee isn't much better. You have no good bonus damage sources, and it doubles down on the need for Strength. You can do tripping okay, if you also invest in Strength; I guess you have accuracy boosters to burn for Power Attack, which requires more Strength. Plus, you're up front, in light armor, with a d8 hit die. Good luck, mate.
Font of Inspiration: How? No, seriously, how can you possibly fit this onto a character sheet when everything in the game needs lots of feats? Four plus feats for Iajutsu Focus (Wep Finesse, Quick Draw, EWP, Flick of the Wrist). Five plus feats for archery (Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Greater Manyshot). Three plus for tripping.(Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes; probably EWP: Spiked Chain and/or Knock-Down, and I bet you'd like some Power Attack while you're at it)
Skills. Ah, skills. Brains Over Brawn is a nice option, sure. I mean, an equal investment in Marshal gets you largely the same benefit (mental-stat-to-Dex-and-Str-checks) and we don't go ga-ga for that, generally, but... no, it's nice, it's a nice way to bump some skills you'd have trouble affording after dumping all your points in Knowledge skills. Cunning Knowledge is good for the once-in-a-blue-moon skills, but it's not like a wand of Divine Insight or Guidance of the Avatar is hard to get your hands on. I mean, don't get me wrong, Factotums are sadly near the top of 3.5 skill users (though they're beaten out by Bardic Knack Bards, Cloistered Clerics, and arguably Incarnates), but 3.5 skill use is rarely strong to begin with.
tl;dr: Trying to make a Factotum do anything productive is an exercise in pain and futility.

Frosty

2017-02-06, 05:02 PM

Have you tried spending feats to get Manyshot, and then getting lots of Fonts of Inspiration? Manyshot is a standard action, hint hint.

Zaq

2017-02-06, 05:07 PM

Have you tried spending feats to get Manyshot, and then getting lots of Fonts of Inspiration? Manyshot is a standard action, hint hint.

Manyshot also basically doesn't do anything. It's only one attack roll (so it's not more accurate than firing one arrow—it's less, because of the penalty), and it's basically impossible to reliably add damage to it. So you're looking at an extra d8 or so. Maybe with a grand total of, like, +3 or +4 if you can afford the STR for a composite bow (remember that you need 17 DEX for Manyshot if you aren't putting 6 levels in Ranger) and/or if you have a magic weapon, at least for a good stretch of levels around when Manyshot actually comes online.

Greater Manyshot can trigger precision damage more than once, as we all know, but where's that precision damage coming from?

Frosty

2017-02-06, 05:15 PM

Manyshot is like getting a full atk ad a standard action. If you can't make use of that with a class that gets extra standard action, I'm sorry.

Grod_The_Giant

2017-02-06, 05:18 PM

Manyshot also basically doesn't do anything. It's only one attack roll (so it's not more accurate than firing one arrow—it's less, because of the penalty), and it's basically impossible to reliably add damage to it. So you're looking at an extra d8 or so. Maybe with a grand total of, like, +3 or +4 if you can afford the STR for a composite bow (remember that you need 17 DEX for Manyshot if you aren't putting 6 levels in Ranger) and/or if you have a magic weapon, at least for a good stretch of levels around when Manyshot actually comes online.

Greater Manyshot can trigger precision damage more than once, as we all know, but where's that precision damage coming from?
Knowledge Devotion does, admittedly, but the bigger problem is that Factotum doesn't get bonus feats. No, look at it.
1- Point-Blank Shot
3- Knowledge Devotion
6- Rapid Shot
9- Manyshot (BAB, remember-- can't really push this up)
That's the absolute, most bare-bones method possible, pretty much demands that you invest in a Precise Weapon (which also won't really be affordable until ~7th level by standard WBL rules), and only leaves you with space for three FoIs. So... four times per fight, at level 20, assuming you don't need to do anything else. At level 9 you can only do it once, at level 14 twice, and at level 18 three times.

nettle3305

2017-02-06, 05:18 PM

Anthrowhale

2017-02-06, 05:19 PM

I don't think you should rain on FMI quite that much. It's odd, but I don't think it's fair to call it overpowered.

I'm not disagreeing with the thesis though---I've only seen Factotum be particularly useful as a dip.

Grod_The_Giant

2017-02-06, 05:25 PM

I've always thought of Factotum as sort of a precursor to Chameleon, like Warblade 2/Factotum 3/Chameleon 10/Master of Masks 5 is a build I've been thinking about.

I'm not so hot on this build though. I feel like I'd be a bit underpowered late-game.
Oh, that's another gripe! Factotum as a Chameleon entry!

It's terrible.

Chameleon is a class that offers day-to-day flexibility, but little power. For at least the first half of its life, until you can really take advantage of mid-level spells pulled off weird lists, you're basically living off whatever you brought in via your entry method. And Factotum... if there's one thing the Factotum struggles to provide, it's power. Chameleon needs something to give it that early game punch. The best Chameleon entry is either something like a Bard or Harmonious Knight that can pump up their Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration for muscle, or a Magic of Incarnum class entering at the height of their power. (<something with the right skills 1>/Incarnate 1+/Totemist 2+ is the premiere entry-- you get powerful offense that continues to scale nicely with level, off a magic system easily supported by exterior spells and feats-- like, say, that lovely floating feat of yours-- and, as an added bonus, also can be changed around each day).

@Anthrowhale-- FMI?

eggynack

2017-02-06, 05:30 PM

@Anthrowhale-- FMI?
Faerie mysteries initiate. The thing that helps with the HP problem that you called severely overpowered dragon stuff. Using it pulls the factotum further into your whole feat starvation argument though.

Esprit15

2017-02-06, 06:00 PM

What person told you they were going to use every weapon as a Factotum? Pick melee or range, and stick to it. Be a human (or strongheart halfling), because bonus feats (and skills as a human), or maybe an elan or tiefling for Alter Self trickery.

You're not going to be slinging spells. You're going to have single, very versatile, tactical spells. Surprising the normal-op mage or similar monster with an antimagic field and beating them to death with a spiked chain, OR being an expert archer that fills an enemy with arrows.

Compare a Factotum to a Rogue, and it comes out ahead, even without Iajutsu Focus.

icefractal

2017-02-06, 06:03 PM

Doctor Despair

2017-02-06, 06:39 PM

I think the usual answer to Factotum's feat-starved status is heavy DCFS usage. And if you want to say that almost any class can look good with that level of cheese involved ... well yes, I don't disagree - Factotum is a bit overrated.

What bugs me personally is people treating Iajitsu Focus like it was a Factotum class feature. Aside from being a setting-specific skill that not all GMs are going to allow, it isn't exclusive to Factotum! If the skill's allowed, why not take it on a Rogue instead (using a dip or Cosmopolitan) and get IF damage on top of SA with the same conditions? Or for that matter, screw the 'class skill' part. Take a few ranks cross-class and combine it with skill boosters and/or high Charisma for free damage.

FMI is great, but from Dragon so not always available, and again nothing specific to the Factotum.

Yes, the DM can disallow it, but it's not setting-specific. It's a Factotum class skill -- there's no cheese to assume the Factotum can use it. It appears in OA, yes, but there isn't any prerequisite in the skill or the Factotum's class skill list saying the character has to be in/from that setting. With that said, the DM could say "I'm not using OA", but they could do that for any book, so on the boards it's generally policy to assume everything is on the table or that it is core only, with not much in between.

Mr Adventurer

2017-02-06, 06:44 PM

I've only played one as a gestalt Warblade, which was freaking awesome.

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-06, 07:08 PM

Bad Wolf

2017-02-06, 08:05 PM

I hear a lot of people like it in gestalt games. But that's the problem with making "mimic" characters.

Silva Stormrage

2017-02-06, 09:04 PM

So what you're saying is that the class that was designed to be able to do a little of everything but not do anything but basic skills particularly well met its design goals.

Where's the problem again?

A factotum can't front-line but it can whack somebody trying to slip by.

It can't run down a buff routine but it can have just that one spell when you need it.

He can't command an army of undead but he can maybe turn one.

He doesn't get full-blown lay on hands or the cure X line but he can stabilize and revive somebody who does.

Seriously, factotum is one of the few classes where WotC managed to accurately tell you -exactly- what you're getting into with the class write-up. You'll basically always have -something- to do but you won't spend much time in the spotlight. That's just what it is and exactly what it purports to be.

The problem is that it's often viewed as a good tier 3 class that can contribute in combat. My experiences are very similar to Grod's. Trying to build a factotum that can compete with say, Beguilers? Sword Sages? Bards? Other tier 3 characters in generally the same purpose (Skill monkey/utility) and it gets blown out of the water in pretty much every aspect.

Faerie mysteries initiate is dragon magazine and I have yet to see a DM allow it (Though thats just personal experience). The class just isn't that good. Decent in Gestalt but even then I think it's overrated there as well.

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-06, 09:09 PM

The problem is that it's often viewed as a good tier 3 class that can contribute in combat. My experiences are very similar to Grod's. Trying to build a factotum that can compete with say, Beguilers? Sword Sages? Bards? Other tier 3 characters in generally the same purpose (Skill monkey/utility) and it gets blown out of the water in pretty much every aspect.

Faerie mysteries initiate is dragon magazine and I have yet to see a DM allow it (Though thats just personal experience). The class just isn't that good. Decent in Gestalt but even then I think it's overrated there as well.

Eh, low T3 to high T4 at best. Don't know where the idea it's better than that came from. Just looking at what it gets should've got that across. The level 8 feature is the only stand-out, really.

FWIW, never seen FMI allowed either.

Doctor Despair

2017-02-06, 09:11 PM

The way Iaijutsu Focus is worded, if you could draw weapons as free actions, could you draw a melee, release it, use Manyshot with the Ijaitsu Focus with the ranged weapon you are holding, draw a melee, drop it, and use a second standard to Manyshot again? The IF should let you go first in combat, so they should be flat-footed for both attacks.

Edit: I guess if we're going all-in on easy optimization here, a belt of battle gives us a third Manyshot if this works.

Fizban

2017-02-06, 09:13 PM

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-06, 09:15 PM

The way Iaijutsu Focus is worded, if you could draw weapons as free actions, could you draw a melee, release it, use Manyshot with the Ijaitsu Focus with the ranged weapon you are holding, draw a melee, drop it, and use a second standard to Manyshot again? The IF should let you go first in combat, so they should be flat-footed for both attacks.

Doesn't work, GMS keys off of manyshot which requires arrows, specifically.

The go to for IF is the gnome quick-razor because unsheathing and resheathing as free actions are part of its normal use. Enhance it to the 9 hells and never look back.

eggynack

2017-02-06, 09:18 PM

The problem is that it's often viewed as a good tier 3 class that can contribute in combat. My experiences are very similar to Grod's. Trying to build a factotum that can compete with say, Beguilers? Sword Sages? Bards? Other tier 3 characters in generally the same purpose (Skill monkey/utility) and it gets blown out of the water in pretty much every aspect.
I would classify beguilers as tier two though, with bards as pretty much the top of tier three. And factotums, I think, offer way more non-combat utility than swordsage does. Factotum spells may be limited in a day to day context, but that doesn't factor in as much between adventures, and the wizard list is great at power growth.

Doctor Despair

2017-02-06, 09:25 PM

Doesn't work, GMS keys off of manyshot which requires arrows, specifically.

The go to for IF is the gnome quick-razor because unsheathing and resheathing as free actions are part of its normal use. Enhance it to the 9 hells and never look back.

Why does it matter that they require arrows? IF doesn't say you get a bonus on a melee attack -- just an attack immediately following drawing a weapon. My concern is what constitutes "immediately after drawing a melee weapon ." Does dropping a weapon require an action? Would a free action interrupt the Iaijutsu Focus attack? I guess a "clean" way to get it would be to have a third arm. You could free action draw the Quickrazor, Manyshot, sheath Quickrazor, draw Quickrazor, Manyshot, sheathe Quickrazor, Belt of Battle, Draw Quickrazor, Manyshot, Sheathe Quickrazor. Six attacks with 9d6 bonus damage each level 9 doesn't sound too bad.

Also realized the initiative bonus would almost never apply, so you actually have to be a scumbag and take surprise rounds every time to be sure you'd get it -- if it worked.

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-06, 09:36 PM

Why does it matter that they require arrows? IF doesn't say you get a bonus on a melee attack -- just an attack immediately following drawing a weapon. My concern is what constitutes "immediately after drawing a melee weapon ." Does dropping a weapon require an action? Would a free action interrupt the Iaijutsu Focus attack? I guess a "clean" way to get it would be to have a third arm. You could free action draw the Quickrazor, Manyshot, sheath Quickrazor, draw Quickrazor, Manyshot, sheathe Quickrazor, Belt of Battle, Draw Quickrazor, Manyshot, Sheathe Quickrazor. Six attacks with 9d6 bonus damage each level 9 doesn't sound too bad.

Also realized the initiative bonus would almost never apply, so you actually have to be a scumbag and take surprise rounds every time to be sure you'd get it -- if it worked.

There's a sidebar on page 82 whose language pretty conclusively relegates IF to melee attacks. Bloodstorm blade levels get around that quite nicely but you're -not- using IF with any version of manyshot.

Lormador

2017-02-06, 09:36 PM

Fizban

2017-02-06, 09:47 PM

Factotum 8 / Aristocrat 2 (with the NPC levels there to reassure players who might accidentally peek at the sheet that I don't just minmax all the monsters).
That is disgustingly devious. A savvy player would know the NPC levels don't really count since you're just making up their level and aristocrat gives hp like anything lse, and a savvier player would see facto 8 and immediately recognize it, but people expecting "fair" wouldn't stand a chance. I'll have to remember that one. And take a second look at some NPCs with NPC levels that never made sense before.

barakaka

2017-02-06, 10:14 PM

Troacctid

2017-02-06, 10:35 PM

Factotums don't really deal damage. It's not their thing. Give them a decent Strength score and they can swing a sword a little, but if you're expecting them to fight well, you're going to be disappointed. I guess you could try dipping Warblade or Crusader. That usually helps.

daremetoidareyo

2017-02-06, 10:50 PM

The main problem with Factotums in combat is that they tend to dump Inspiration points like crazy in a nova round, then have little to do for the rest of the fight. Their "nova round" isn't anything like a Psion's nova round would be though, in that it may well leave only a single enemy dead (if even that).

The inspiration point mechanic starts to feel a lot more abusive, however, with a solo Factotum. A little speed boost from a wand is really all it takes to start an encounter on your terms, blow half of your inspiration points on attacks, and blow the rest running away. Four standard actions at Expeditious Retreat speeds will get you a long way. At night, that's pretty hard to catch up with.

Once the encounter is over, all the inspiration points come back, and you're free to repeat the tactic if you think you can get away with it.

This may be the stumbling block, Grod.
If we're minmaxing as hard as we tend to do with other classes, factotums have a mechanic where they recuperate their prowess by owning the number of "encounters" going on. The thing is, you need co-players who will simultaneously and equally effectively abandon some fights to reset the inspiration clock. This requires explicit negotiations with the DM and a willingness to not totally over use it in ways that destroy narrative momentum for the rest of the party.

Another stumbling block is that the utility of skills is spread out in over 100 different books. Some even have amazing affiliation abilities. Did you know that you can use knowledge (religion) to summon a demon (BOVD), exorcise a haunting presence (Heroes of Horror), get strategic advantage in a battle (Heroes of Battle) or determine the alignment and identity of which god is worshipped at a long abandoned shrine (Champions of Ruin). Survival can used to scrounge gear for booby traps, making those booby traps (DMG2), leaving trailsigns of up to 30 words that only other survival experts can read (Comp Adv), Find oodles of free food (SRD, races of destiny), provide water for people while at sea (stormwrack), identify natural hazards, determine if air is toxic (dungeonscape), apply mud armor to fight predators with (predatorslaying tactics (on a budget) of faerun), find a rare herb, grow a garden of rare herbs(Masters of the wilds), find caches of elhonna's survivalist junkees (complete champ), and avoid getting lost (SRD).

Complete Champion p.36, Knowledge Domain Affiliation: Rank 5 Affiliation Score 30: Scholar: Once per day, negate a single ability of an enemy creature that you’ve discovered using a successful Knowledge check. This effect lasts for 1 minute and is a supernatural ability. The creature can attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + your character level + your Int modifier) to negate this effect.

Starbuck_II

2017-02-06, 11:44 PM

\ Did you know that you can use knowledge (religion) to summon a demon (BOVD),

Doesn't have to a demon.

Sacrifice mechanic doesn't need to be evil. BoVD only did it that way because it is an evil book.

You need to reach DC 25 to cast Lesser Planar Ally effect.
Some of these are easy:
1) an altar adds +1
2) hour long ceremony: adds +1
3) more than 10 followers: +1 (extra +1 if more than 100 followers)
4) No matter the level +1 minimum (Every 5 levels is +1 round up)

So minimum bonus easy: +4
So only need 21, so assuming rolling 10, you need a 11 check.

SirNibbles

2017-02-07, 12:37 AM

Eldaran

2017-02-07, 12:40 AM

It's a class that gets much better when flaws are taken into account for sure. As mentioned above, they're decent at rocket tag as long as they start it. They don't have to be better than casters or melee brutes; they just need to be better than rogues.

Yeah, I think that's the main problem here. I wouldn't play the class without flaws because they simply lack the feats to do what you want consistently. If you do take two flaws, the class becomes massively better, they get more benefit from those two feats than almost any other class. Also, always run Heroics as one of your spells once it's available, for even more feats. And probably get a wand of Heroics as well. The more sources of feats you get, the more you can take Font of Inspiration with your normal feats, and the better the class becomes.

Kurald Galain

2017-02-07, 12:47 AM

If you do take two flaws, the class becomes massively better,

As with FMI, I've never met a DM who allowed flaws, either.

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-07, 12:57 AM

Doesn't have to a demon.

Sacrifice mechanic doesn't need to be evil. BoVD only did it that way because it is an evil book.

You need to reach DC 25 to cast Lesser Planar Ally effect.
Some of these are easy:
1) an altar adds +1
2) hour long ceremony: adds +1
3) more than 10 followers: +1 (extra +1 if more than 100 followers)
4) No matter the level +1 minimum (Every 5 levels is +1 round up)

So minimum bonus easy: +4
So only need 21, so assuming rolling 10, you need a 11 check.

How, exactly, does one make a sacrifice of a live, sentient creature without it being an evil act? Seriously, ritualized murder for personal gain, not an evil act; explain.

daremetoidareyo

2017-02-07, 01:17 AM

How, exactly, does one make a sacrifice of a live, sentient creature without it being an evil act? Seriously, ritualized murder for personal gain, not an evil act; explain.

Probably, keying off of the word sacrifice, monetary goods would probably suffice for good gods, and the chaos/lawful spectrum would probably want a sacrifice of goods that are difficult to get a hold of that would thematically represent the ideology. Be it contracts signed by barbarians to become civilized that have just been collected by her majesty to the stolen contracts signed by barbarians to cede all of their rights to life and land used as the constitution of the new colonial empire.

Doctor Awkward

2017-02-07, 01:18 AM

Here's a Factotum I built for a random 10th level mini-campaign game that lasted about eight sessions held at a comic store near where I live:

Dark Human Factotum 9 - 32 PB

Str 12
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 8
Cha 15
-Level 4 and 8 points went to Int

Feats: Darkstalker (H), Font of Inspiration (1st), Font of Inspiration (3rd), Imperious Command (6th), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Gnome Quickrazor (9th)

Skills:

Normal: Balance 5, Bluff 5, Concentration 5, Diplomacy 3, Disguise 1, Escape Artist 1, Forgery 1, Gather Information 1, Heal 1, Hide 5, Intimidate 12, Jump 1, Listen 3, Move Silently 5, Search 5, Spot 1, Survival 5, Use Rope 1,
Trained Only: Authohypnosis 1, Decipher Script 1, Disable Device 5, Knowledge (local) 1, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 1, Knowledge (nature) 5, Knowledge (arcane) 5, Knowledge (religion 5), Knowledge (the planes) 1, Open Lock 1, Sleight of Hand 1, Spellcraft 1, Tumble 5, Use Magic Device 12, Iaijutsu Focus 12
Skill Tricks: Never Outnumbered, Collector of Stories

Gear:
+1 Fearsome (DotU) Mithril Chain Shirt (with Restful Crystal)
+1 Longsword (with Crystal of Least Return) in a finely carved drawing sheath (Mwk IF tool)
Elvencraft Longbow
Mwk Gnome Quickrazor
Gloves of Dexterity +2
Headband of Intellect +2 (combined with Circlet of Persuasion)
Ring of the Darkhidden
Cloak of Elvenkind
Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker
Masterwork Potion Belt

-Protection from Evil x3
-Expeditious Retreat x3
-True Strike x2
-Disguise Self
Quiver of Elhonna

-Wand of Shield
-Wand of Benign Transposition
-Wand of Lesser Restoration
-Wand of Bull's Strength
-Serpentstongue Arrow (60) (RoW)
-Dragonbreah Arrow (20) (RoW)
-Cold Iron Arrow (20)
-Alchemical Silver Arrow (20)
Heward's Handy Haversack

-Bolt Cutters (A&E)
-Metal Tongs (A&E)
-Small Magnet (A&E)
-Silk Rope, 50'
-Forgery Kit (10)
-Forger's Paper x10 (CSc)
-Insectbane Candle (A&E)
-Clearwater Tablet x5 (CSc)
-Boccob's Blessed Bandage x3 (MIC)
-Caltrops x10
-Mwk Thieve's Tools
-Torchbug Paste x4 (CSc)
-Antitoxin x2
-Stonebreaker Acid x5 (A&E)
-Universal Solvent
-Holy Water
-Trollbane (3 doses) (DS)
-Empty Potion Vial x5
-Empty Sack x3

Typical spells
1st- Silent Image, Grease, Ebon Eyes, Sniper's Shot
2nd- Alter Self, Darkness, Heroics, Wraithstrike, Sniper's Eye.
3rd- Greater Magic Weapon, Wand Modulation
4th- Dimension Door, Polymorph

The Crystal of Least Return saved me a feat by allowing me to draw whatever weapon it's stuck on as a free action.

During the game I had several options to enable Iaijutsu Focus:
The most basic was hiding. With the Dark Template, Darkstalker, and Ring of the Darkhidden I was effectively immune to most forms of detection. The bonuses from the template, Brains over Brawn, and the Cloak gave me a modifier of +25, and then it was just moving into position. If I knew we were going to be outside in broad daylight. I would cast a Darkness spell on my Chronocharm, and then tuck it inside my shirt. During a battle I would cast Ebon Eyes and pull the charm out for a mobile zone of hiding and death.

Grease is obvious, as is the tried and true method of, "Going first" (I could nab Improved Initiative with a casting of Heroics).

The other method probably won't be of much use to you was on account of a table rule that Iaijutus Focus would also work on opponents that were denied their Dexterity for any reason. I had was the Fearsome Armor enhancement, which allows you to Intimidate as a move action and gives a bonus on the check. With Imperious Command, enemies would cower in the first round, which denies them their Dexterity. You can achieve a similar effect with the Blurstrike weapon enhancement from the MIC, which makes the enemy flat-footed for the first attack you take each round up to ten times per day.

12 ranks + 2 ability bonus + 3 from the Circlet +2 from the sheath gave me a total bonus of 19 to the check. In a pinch I could eke out an extra +2 by modulating the Bull's Strength wand to Eagle's Splendor, and grab an additional 9 from Cunning Knowledge if it was a boss monster for a minimum of +5d6 to the attack, with a shot at max damage if I rolled a natural 20. I would also frequently spend points on Cunning Strike for extra sneak attack on top of this.

Generally the most use I saw with the bow was and shooting at other creatures that used bows and refused to engage in melee, as well as assassinating things with Cunning Strike before combat started. Sniper's Shot allows you to make a sneak attack regardless of the distance involved.

Outside of combat I basically did everything. Gather Information checks pretty much auto-succeeded thanks to Cunning Knowledge, as did Forgery to get us into to more official places without the hassle of having to chance a Bluff. Research was a snap. In at least one emergency, Once when I took a hit that brought me to -9, Autohypnosis saved me from dying by basically stabilizing automatically.

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-07, 01:26 AM

Probably, keying off of the word sacrifice, monetary goods would probably suffice for good gods, and the chaos/lawful spectrum would probably want a sacrifice of goods that are difficult to get a hold of that would thematically represent the ideology. Be it contracts signed by barbarians to become civilized that have just been collected by her majesty to the stolen contracts signed by barbarians to cede all of their rights to life and land used as the constitution of the new colonial empire.

That's a fine houserule but BoVD is -exceedingly- clear that they're talking about blood-sacrifices of sapient creatures.

Deophaun

2017-02-07, 01:32 AM

That's a fine houserule but BoVD is -exceedingly- clear that they're talking about blood-sacrifices of sapient creatures.
So you consecrate that kobold warren to Heironeious before you get to genociding for great justice.

daremetoidareyo

2017-02-07, 01:33 AM

That's a fine houserule but BoVD is -exceedingly- clear that they're talking about blood-sacrifices of sapient creatures.

So your response wasn't to specify that the sacrifice rules aren't necessarily limited to demons?
So you weren't, in fact, suggesting that the sacrifice rules were adaptable for any faith and all you need to access them is knowledge religion?

Because knowing the answer to that might help me understand why I am now feeling confused.

Dagroth

2017-02-07, 01:36 AM

How, exactly, does one make a sacrifice of a live, sentient creature without it being an evil act? Seriously, ritualized murder for personal gain, not an evil act; explain.

Wee Jas is the Goddess of Death and Magic.

A Lawful Neutral Cleric of Wee Jas could sacrifice an enemy or even a willing follower.

Heck, a Good Cleric could sacrifice a willing follower... "I go to my death knowing that this will enable us to gain great aid from our patron deity!"

daremetoidareyo

2017-02-07, 02:05 AM

Wee Jas is the Goddess of Death and Magic.

A Lawful Neutral Cleric of Wee Jas could sacrifice an enemy or even a willing follower.

Heck, a Good Cleric could sacrifice a willing follower... "I go to my death knowing that this will enable us to gain great aid from our patron deity!"

Sounds legit to me. Factotums can use knowledge religion to sacrifice sapient creatures, regardless of their alignment, to get wishes from things that aren't necessarily demons. This is in addition to knowing the the annals of power in a church organization (Magic of Faerun), issuing a heretical edict from a position of authority in that church that would be absolutely correct (power of faerun), Exercise a haunted site (Heroes of Horror), determine an undead's vulnerability (LM p.19), and Turn a goblin/bugbear corpse into a bone drinker (MM3), (15th level factotum, yo!).

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-07, 02:09 AM

So your response wasn't to specify that the sacrifice rules aren't necessarily limited to demons?
So you weren't, in fact, suggesting that the sacrifice rules were adaptable for any faith and all you need to access them is knowledge religion?

Because knowing the answer to that might help me understand why I am now feeling confused.

It's not limited to demon calling but it is pretty well limited to just evil deities and their servitors by the nature of what it is.

Wee Jas is the Goddess of Death and Magic.

A Lawful Neutral Cleric of Wee Jas could sacrifice an enemy or even a willing follower.

They could but it'd still be an evil act and they wouldn't stay LN if they made a habit of it. Whether the stern lady would accept such a sacrifice is another matter.

Heck, a Good Cleric could sacrifice a willing follower... "I go to my death knowing that this will enable us to gain great aid from our patron deity!"

Good deities value life and there's no way around the fact you're performing a ritual murder of a sapient creature; an evil act. You're talking heresy here.

daremetoidareyo

2017-02-07, 02:11 AM

daremetoidareyo

2017-02-07, 02:16 AM

Good deities value life and there's no way around the fact you're performing a ritual murder of a sapient creature; an evil act. You're talking heresy here.

You can justify that heresy with a DC40 knowledge religion check! (power of faerun p.52)

Regardless, a factotum can do it, as depending on the church the going rate is about 1000gp for heresy (FRCS p.232-233) and possibly excommunication. But it doesn't matter because you're a factotum. It's like being macguyver in priest disguise.

You can probably get a ton of willing followers with high diplomacy skills. And with the bluff skill, you can pretend to be a famous general and get +5 to your diplomacy check. If you're a part of the hollow shards affiliation, you can use your bluff skill as an opposed roll to convince others that your interpretation is correct. Bing Bang Boom.

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-07, 02:26 AM

You can justify that heresy with a DC40 knowledge religion check! (power of faerun p.52)

*buzzer* try again. There's nothing on that page to this effect.

Regardless, a factotum can do it, as depending on the church the going rate is about 1000gp for heresy (FRCS p.232-233) and possibly excommunication. But it doesn't matter because you're a factotum. It's like being macguyver in priest disguise.

That's for the church. Sacrifices are bypassing the church and appealing directly to the deity itself. You also neglected the -rest- of the penance for a major violation of dogma which, incidently, is a much different matter from proper heresy. I don't think that works even if you weren't bypassing the church altogether.

Dagroth

2017-02-07, 02:26 AM

a factotum can do it.

Every time I read that, this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDuMp2kDxos) pops into my head.

ShurikVch

2017-02-07, 08:04 AM

Forget Int-SAD. You don't get Int-to-AC until 16th; before then if you try to rely on Cunning Insight or Cunning Defense for anything more than an occasional bonus you'll run dry in a round or two. So you need Dex for armor and attacks, probably; you'll need Con for hit points unless you can use severely-overpowered Dragon content; you'll probably need Strength for damage with melee weapons or composite bows, unless you can spare a bunch of feats for Dex-to-Damage or have some sort of voodoo for Iajutsu Focus. Then you want a bit of Wisdom for Opportunistic Piety, and probably some Cha for skills, including the aforementioned IF. Speaking of...What kind of Factotum ever run out of IPs?
You should have them into triple digits at the start of adventure; if not, then you should restore them in a nearest peaceful settlement
Also, if you in desperate need to more AC, then maybe dip in Iaijutsu Master?
And, the last time I'm checked, Con is useful for any non-Undead character, so - how's it's a flaw for Factotum?

Iajutsu Focus, I have come to the conclusion, is a joke. I have to assume people who push it as some great source of power are confusing "flat-footed" with "denied your Dex bonus," because I seriously cannot find any way of reliably activating it more than once.Skill tricks: Acrobatic Backstab, Hidden Blade
Feats: Gloom Razor (Moving Shadows), Raptor School (Falcon's Feathers)
Spell: Power Word Distract - no save

Knowledge Devotion is a lovely boost, most-of-the-weapon-focus-tree-in-a-single-feat, but there are six monster-identifying skills. So much for being the ultimate skillmonkey, because that's more than half your points down the party-know-it-all drain. I mean, you can dabble, sure, but if you want more than a minor +2 boost you'd better be prepared to give up a lot of your skillmonkey hopes-and-dreams. And then what do you do with it?Heck, just how much exactly skill points you need?
Does 12/level really isn't enough to up all Knowledge plus whatever else?

Melee isn't much better. You have no good bonus damage sources, and it doubles down on the need for Strength. You can do tripping okay, if you also invest in StrengthBrains over Brawn - no need for Str

Cunning Knowledge is good for the once-in-a-blue-moon skills, but it's not like a wand of Divine Insight or Guidance of the Avatar is hard to get your hands on.Spells do something better than non-spells?
And in other breaking news, the sky is blue, things fall down, and water is wet.

I mean, don't get me wrong, Factotums are sadly near the top of 3.5 skill users (though they're beaten out by Bardic Knack Bards, Cloistered Clerics, and arguably Incarnates), but 3.5 skill use is rarely strong to begin with.Superiority of Bardic Knack is questionable, and Cloistered Cleric is T1

Grod_The_Giant

2017-02-07, 09:12 AM

More evidence that the target power level is higher than the rest of the game is expected to go. If the class can't op hard enough to meet your demands, maybe your demands are too high? Most classes don't have much in the way of damage bonuses, the Factotum can compare for a couple rounds just as intended, especially since you can commit your damage bonus after you've already hit. All those feat chains people think are mandatory aren't and never were, they've just forgotten how to hit things without an entire build dedicated to it.
Full attacks without being backed up by anything-- off a medium BAB, I might add-- aren't even Tier 4, though. That's the kind of thing that Tier 5 classes are forced to rely on. The Expert can make full attacks with a medium BAB, and have plenty of skill access. I'd like to see a PC class, particularly one as highly toted as the Factotum, do a bit better than that.

Precise Shot in particular bugs me. Medium targets shouldn't be enough of a threat to demand the full team dog-pile. Large targets can be shot from the side into their back squares to avoid the shooting into melee penalty. Manyshot is only needed if you really, really want another shot in when you cunning surge, but you're better off using rapid shot on any round you can stand still for the lower penalty.
Unless they're dog-piling your side. Or just generally closing to melee on their own terms. Of if they're NPCs with class levels. Or if you can't maneuver around to a clear point on a large creature. Or if there is no clear point because you have two melee guys attacking from different directions. Manyshot only because it plus Cunning Surge gets called out a lot as a good combo; generally no, I'm not a fan.

I would classify beguilers as tier two though, with bards as pretty much the top of tier three. And factotums, I think, offer way more non-combat utility than swordsage does. Factotum spells may be limited in a day to day context, but that doesn't factor in as much between adventures, and the wizard list is great at power growth.
Swordsage is actually a pretty good comparison. Both get plenty of skill points, both can be somewhat mental-stat-SAD, and both break out a variety of tricks. But while I admit that, at high levels, the Factotum can pull off some of the same noncombat cheese the full spellcasters were doing ages ago, I'd rather have a Swordsage with me while I actually adventure. They're more geared towards stealth specifically, yeah, but I'll take reliable access to invisibility, teleports, break-anything-ing, AoE, blindsense, trap-clearing summons...

Factotums don't really deal damage. It's not their thing. Give them a decent Strength score and they can swing a sword a little, but if you're expecting them to fight well, you're going to be disappointed. I guess you could try dipping Warblade or Crusader. That usually helps.
They don't have a great non-combat thing, either. And that's a huge problem, is my point, in a game that revolves heavily around combat. It's much easier to fake your way around having no noncombat features (by roleplaying your way around skill checks, having ideas/strategies, etc) than it is to fake your way around having no combat features, because combat is usually when groups starting hewing really close to the book.

At 8th level, the factotum becomes deadly. 5 Inspiration Points means you can use Cunning Surge (3 points) once. There's just one thing: you gain more Inspiration Points every encounter.
Taking advantage of what's almost certainly an unintended loophole isn't very practical. How many groups will really let bag-of-rats type tricks work? Plus, this isn't 5th edition-- most encounters will be serious enough that you'll need to spend points if you want even your crappy tricks to work.

Here's a Factotum I built for a random 10th level mini-campaign game that lasted about eight sessions held at a comic store near where I live:
...
The other method probably won't be of much use to you was on account of a table rule that Iaijutus Focus would also work on opponents that were denied their Dexterity for any reason.
As you noticed, that makes it far easier.

What kind of Factotum ever run out of IPs?
You should have them into triple digits at the start of adventure; if not, then you should restore them in a nearest peaceful settlement
Those with DMs that won't let them get away with stupid crap like indefinitely stacking per-encounter resources because whoever wrote the class was notoriously bad at rules? (I haven't even gotten into the rules debates centered around this class, mostly because I don't care).

Also, if you in desperate need to more AC, then maybe dip in Iaijutsu Master?
And, the last time I'm checked, Con is useful for any non-Undead character, so - how's it's a flaw for Factotum?
It's not really, I'm just illustrating how MAD they are. And if you're using IF, they are front-line combatants with light armor and a d8 HD...

Skill tricks: Acrobatic Backstab, Hidden Blade
Feats: Gloom Razor (Moving Shadows), Raptor School (Falcon's Feathers)
Spell: Power Word Distract - no save
So... skill tricks that work once per encounter, a feat that requires multiclassing or a total of five feats and will maybe work on one attack/round, given the movement requirement, a feat that requires you to waste a standard action every other round, and a fourth level spell that requires you to waste a standard action every other round. We're still on "cobbling together restricted uses" and "

Heck, just how much exactly skill points you need?
Does 12/level really isn't enough to up all Knowledge plus whatever else?
It's probably not 12/level until well into the game, given your MADness... But no, it's not, because 3.5 skills are terrible. You need 6 points/level for Knowledges. Iajutsu Focus, probably. Use Magic Device. We're up to 8. Search, Open Lock, Disable Device. A bunch of one-off points for obscure things like Forgery that you can boost with Cunning Knowledge. A bunch of one-off points for skill tricks. Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive. You see where I'm going with this?

Brains over Brawn - no need for Str
There is if you want to be good at said checks-- the big selling point is that you get to be better than normal characters at it.

Spells do something better than non-spells?
And in other breaking news, the sky is blue, things fall down, and water is wet.[/QUOTE]
Yes, spells are better, but we generally don't find class features that are easily replaced by a cheap wand to be good ones.

prufock

2017-02-07, 09:21 AM

What kind of Factotum ever run out of IPs?
You should have them into triple digits at the start of adventure; if not, then you should restore them in a nearest peaceful settlement
Um, what? To have triple-digit IPs, at level 20, requires 13 iterations of Font of Inspiration. For reference, human with 2 flaws gets 10 feats by level 20.

Factotum is one of my favourite classes, and I'm having trouble understanding how it's so much trouble to build a good one.

Fizban

2017-02-07, 09:30 AM

Kurald Galain

2017-02-07, 09:41 AM

He's under the impression that anyone would actually take "it never says I lose any inspiration points" as meaning he can farm and store them by declaring encounters whenever he feels like it. Edit: didn't realize Grod already had it covered.

LOL really? So the outcome of this thread is that in order to make this class playable, you need either a cheesy loophole like this, or dark chaos shuffle (which is generally considered cheese), or flaws (which are also generally considered cheese), or feats like FMI (which are also generally considered cheese)...

Doesn't speak well for the class, now does it?

magwaaf

2017-02-07, 10:04 AM

factotums are the jack of all trades but master of none class. they are just awesome all around because they can do it all fairly well

Fizban

2017-02-07, 10:11 AM

I would say the outcome of this thread is the same as the last Factotum thread, since I keep saying the same thing in all of them. And at the root of it, the same thing I say in every thread:

Full attacks without being backed up by anything-- off a medium BAB, I might add-- aren't even Tier 4, though. That's the kind of thing that Tier 5 classes are forced to rely on. The Expert can make full attacks with a medium BAB, and have plenty of skill access. I'd like to see a PC class, particularly one as highly toted as the Factotum, do a bit better than that.
But factotum is packing more than medium BAB basic attacks. They have a limited supply of Cunning Insight that can be applied as desired without needing to jump through any other hoops, as well as a limited number of spells as they level up. The Expert is a poor comparison considering it's basically Factotum minus all the class features.

Unless they're dog-piling your side. Or just generally closing to melee on their own terms. Of if they're NPCs with class levels. Or if you can't maneuver around to a clear point on a large creature. Or if there is no clear point because you have two melee guys attacking from different directions. Manyshot only because it plus Cunning Surge gets called out a lot as a good combo; generally no, I'm not a fan.
If they're dog-piling your side then you'll have problems shooting through soft cover anyway. If they're dogpiling someone who ran out ahead, that's their own fault for running out ahead where they know you can't cover them. NPCs with class levels are fragile compared to actual monsters, or so over-leveled they should be showing up solo (outside of lowest levels of course) if the DM actually believes CR=level. If your party is dog-piling the foe so you can't get a clear shot, that's once again your party's problem for not working together.

The point of the Factotum is having the skills to avoid situations where you are useless, by having all the skills. Ambush the foe where you have a good angle to shoot. Spot the foe before they ambush you where you can't shoot. Find a way to flush them out of position. Diplomance NPCs into not fighting you in the first place, or fighting your battles for you instead. Make battles happen on your terms. Obtain and analyze the information needed to do the above effectively. If the DM throws an immutable dungeon where you're not allowed to do anything but fight the battles as written (or you're comparing it to combat scenarios it has apparently failed to influence as your main measure of power), then Factotum is bad. If the DM allows you to change the game with preparation and skill checks, then it's as good as you can make it. It's a practical class for people that want to follow their whims, not one loaded with theoretically absolute "I win scenarios X, Y, and Z but not Q or 6" buttons.

I'll guarantee you that everyone who's ever complained about the Factotum being OP (barring obvious mechanical abuses, and I'm sure I've seen it), had a DM that allowed people to do whatever they want with a weird skill check. If you already expect any class with skill points to do that without Cunning Knowledge, or expect wizards to already have every spell without Arcane Dilettante, then your optimization level is high enough that you don't have a need for Factotum, because your characters can already do whatever they want without a special class for it. So you don't have a use for it, and when other people say it's amazing you can assume their optimization level is low enough that those abilities are useful (or they're talking about mechanical abuses).

Like, seriously. Fighters are playable, Factotums are playable. Anyone who says different is trying to impose their optimization level on stuff that doesn't care about their optimization level, such as people that have a grand old time playing Fighters and Factotums.

Grod_The_Giant

2017-02-07, 10:13 AM

Factotum is one of my favourite classes, and I'm having trouble understanding how it's so much trouble to build a good one.

factotums are the jack of all trades but master of none class. they are just awesome all around because they can do it all fairly well
And yet, I spent several hours yesterday trying and failing to do just that, and I think I'm at least decent at the character optimization game. So I say: prove it. Build me a mid-level Factotum who can do even one thing better than a Rogue or Thug Fighter with a wand of Divine Insight.

Stealth Marmot

2017-02-07, 10:14 AM

tl;dr: Trying to make a Factotum do anything productive is an exercise in pain and futility.

I actually am playing a Factotum in an upcoming game (I have been in pretty much every Factotum thread talking about it) and I can say that I understand your frustration. I lucked out howeverm and ended up with a character with OBSCENE stats overall.

The Factotum has a lot of the same problems at the Monk. Specifically, both have a number of stats they are extremely reliant on. However, they also have the advantage that if they have those stats very high, the benefits start piling up.

Factotums are also very feat starved, especially considering that most people expect you to throw points into Font of Inspiration, plus getting Knowledge Devotion. Honestly, being Human is almost a requirement.

Addressing your points one by one:

INT is still good for brains over Brawn, and it is still used for both skill points AND a lot of skills, including knowledged (which get into Knowledge devotion) as well as search and disable device, which are probably going to be something you want since you get trapfinding. It also does affect your Cunning Insight, which is incredibly useful. Sure, an attack roll or damage roll isn't too much to add your INT modifier to, but adding it to an essential saving throw? Especially since you can use that AT WILL outside of combat? Traps wont be a big problem for you.

Iajutsu Focus: I don't use that skill and never planned to. Aside from it being situational, it involves a book that my group never uses and I think it is 3.0 anyway, not 3.5. Really, it just seems to be a skill used by people more interested in theory than dealing with the reality of a DM saying "Uh, no."

Knowledge Devotion: This feat is actually amazing for a factotum because the factotum is the only class that will be spending most of its time attacking things AND gets all knowledges as class skills. Wizards get all knowledges, but will more likely find their feats better used on metamagic. Bards get all knowledges as class skills as well, and actually my current DM used Knowledge devotion with his bard to great effect, but a bard also spends at least part of his time using inspire courage and their spells, at least a little more often than a Factotum. A Factotum on the other hand will likely be attacking things with either a Greatsword or going Sword and board. Factotums getting martial weapons means they are pretty good in melee combat. As for spending a bunch of skill points, you need only get 5 ranks in one Knowledge (Often Arcana, but I went with Religion) and 1 rank in the reat. Since you are INT based, you have a decent roll with 1 rank, and if you spend a measly 2 skill points on the skill trick Collector of Stories you get a +5 on the knowledge roll to identify the creature, which is the roll used for Knowledge Devotion. 6+int (usually at least +3) means around a +9 on every roll, which means you usually get at least a +2 to attacks AND damage, and that is a pretty huge bonus. That's Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, AND Weapon specialization in one feat against all things with all weapons. If you are lucky, you might get a +3. I went with Knowledge Religion to get the +2 to turning undead. You will have to spend more skill points if you want to get the higher bonuses, but you don't HAVE to get that huge bonus. Some also actually WANT to get knowledges as well because they can be useful skills in certain games. It really depends on how your DM manages how useful a knowledge is and what he expects from players.

Spells: A factotum gets a rather crappy number of spells, BUT they literally can cast ANY sorc/wizard spell without having to have a spellbook or scroll or anything. It can be really useful if you pick out a spell that works with your build. For example, I plan on taking Enlarge Person. My character has Improved Trip and a 16 strength, and an 18 intelligence. When enlarges, he is large sized, has an 18 strength, and 18 intelligence, and gets his INT bonus on trip attacks (Brains over brawn). That's 4 for large size 4 for strength, 4 for int, 4 for improved trip. +16 on strength check trip attacks verse the person's strength score or dex score. If I successfully trip, the person is prone, making them less effective in melee, and I get a free attack on them (with a +4 since they are prone) and I will be using a large weapon with 18 strength. This is how you can make a single spell work to your advantage. Later on they can get spells like haste, glitterdust, invisibility, all sorts that could be useful, and they never have to use or find a scroll. Notably, they DO get use magic device as a class skill as well, so they also can use a scroll or wand if you want some extra spells. They cant keep up with a wizard of course, or even a bard, but they have a great ace in the hole. In fact, "Ace in the hole" kind of describes the class in a nutshell.

Archery: I find that archery builds for factotums are likely to have a lot of trouble. Sure manyshot plus extra standard actions can be pretty good, but the number of feats require added with the fact that those extra standard actions cost a LOT of inspiration, and since you spent 4 feats to get to manyshot (if you get precise shot) you likely wont have a single feat to spend on font of inspiration, much less 2 or 3. My only suggestion would be to dip a couple of levels into Fighter to get the bonus feats if you want to try an archery build. That said, the factotum's Cunning Insight is flat damage that can be applied to ranged attacks as well, so it can make an arrow hit pretty hard. I agree though, the factotum as is is a pretty poor choice for an archery build. They do get martial weapon proficiency, so they can pull a bow out if needed, but building around it is difficult to impossible.

Font of Inspiration: Unfortunately, this feat is more of an all or nothing deal. Either you get 3 of it or more or you don't bother. If you DO get 3-4 of it, you end up with so many inspiration points you can add your INT bonus to just about everything. Alternatively, you can do what I call a "Cunning strike bomb". This is where you basically put every inspiration point into one strike. maybe one point into cunning insight damage the rest into cunning strike damage. If you have 3 foints of inspiration feats, thats 6 extra inspiration on top of the 3 you have at 4th level. So you can do Weapon damage+ strength damage +Int damage +8d6 in ONE HIT at 4th level without having to crit. It won't utterly obliterate everything, but it's enough to take most of the hit points of even a boss level monster at that level. All you have to do is manage a flank on something with working organs. All of that said, I agree the feat needs to be rebalanced. Perhaps so it gives 2 inspiration points per feat flat instead of scaling up.

Skills: Here is where the Factotum shines. The Factotum is the best skill monkey for 3.5 you will find printed on paper. In addition having ALL class skills, which is huge, it has 6+int skills. Only the scout and rogue have more. On top of that since it is INT based, it will likely have as many as the rogue or scout. Brains over Brawn is an insane bonus on a tremendous number of skills, many of which you will be capable in without having to spend a single skill point in them. My Factotum has a +9 on jump and balance checks without having to spend a single skill point in them. (+3 str/dex, +4 int, +2 tumble synergy). He has a +7 on every strength or dex based skill at least without spending a skill point, and with his skill ranks his tumble is a +13 at 3rd level. Because of this, I was free to invest in a bunch of charisma based skills while still keeping a good bonus in the dex and strength skills. Being human also helped. The factotum can invest in whatever skills the party is lacking without much trouble. He even works well with a rogue, because he needs only spend a rank in search and disable device and he can aid another since he has trapfinding, making him valuable to the group with minimal investment. He can sneak alongside the rogue easily, making the rogue less vulnerable when scouting. On top of all of that, a Factotum can get a bonus equal to their class level on every skill check once per day by spending inspiration, and since most skills are out of combat, he can use it freely without worrying about inspiration points. Granted, you do have to be considerate about when you make use of that one skill check if you plan on making several with the same skill, but most of the time you use skills, they come into play only a a couple of times per day, often even just once. The thing about the brain over brawn that makes it more amazing than the Marshal's ability is the fact that they get that PLUS a wide load of class skills and skill points. Looking back on it though, to be honest, the marshal's bonus is actually quite amazing. I wonder why it doesn't get as much attention.

It's worth talking about a few more points that the Factotum gets. First, they get martial weapons, so my trip build I told you about, I only really need 2 feats: Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. Combat Expertise is actually useful since I might be on the front line anyway, and since a trip is a touch attack I could take a hit to my attack to help my AC. As for EWP Spiked chain, nah. Just get a guisarm. It's a reach weapon you can trip with, and attacks of opportunities can be trips so you can stop a charge coming at you dead in its tracks with a trip, and get a free attack when it happens. Sure you can't hit things that are adjacent, but you can 5 foot step or in a pinch, tumble. Alternatively, since I am planning to make my character large anyway, that will give him a wider threat range. Combat Expertise will be useful later so I can get extra attacks of opportunity, especially when they try to stand up. Power attack might sound good, but really isn't THAT necessary. On top of everything else, the Factotum gets a bonus on initiative, since it is considered a dex check. My character essentially got Improved Initiative for free. On top of that, a Factotum gains the ability to heal people, which is actually a good amount of damage healed. At level 5, with a 14 wisdom and 18 int, I get 5 chances to heal 14 damage. That's 70 points of damage healed. Not close to what a cleric heals, but that's more healing you can get from any core class outside of a cleric or a VERY healing focused druid. On top of that the Factotum can use that instead to turn undead with the SAME power as a cleric. That's right, a Factotum heals AND turns undead a lot better than a PALADIN. In fact, a factotum might even have a slight advantage on turning undead over the cleric because the factotum can easily throw the 5 points into knowledge (religion) to get the turning bonus, while the cleric is very skill point starved.

In all the Factotum can do a lot, and can pull a lot of different duties in a pinch, or assist with the other classes in taking some of the pressure off them. The cleric need not spend so many of their spells on healing, the wizard need not expend as many spells on buffs or situational spells, the fighter will have someone to take some of the pressure off so they don't get swamped or they have someone tripping people to make hitting easier, the rogue has an assistant in trapfinding and a guy who can help with flanking easily, the bard can focus on certain areas more since the factotum can cover the odds and ends. The Factotum isn't a powerhouse, but it is useful for filling gaps in your group. No class will more universally be able to round out a group better. Sure, it doesn't have the optimization capabilities of other classes, but it has its uses. It's marginally useful in combat, but an absolute godsend out of combat. It's a class you have to be actively creative with and you need to know the rules to squeeze the best out of them. You also HAVE to know your DM, because whatever a DM loves to give credit to, the factotum can capitalize. Some DMs give insane capabilities for diplomacy, or bluff, or having a knowledge.

Stealth Marmot

2017-02-07, 10:17 AM

Fizban

2017-02-07, 10:23 AM

jedipilot24

2017-02-07, 10:33 AM

Based on the Private Sanctuary podcast episode about the Factotum, the way I would build one is to dump all feats into Font of Inspiration. As the OP noted, you are feat-starved regardless of how you build it, so in my opinion you might as well focus on maximizing your main class feature.

Most classes have a Five Minute workday, the Factotum has a Five Round workday with just it's default Inspiration points and can easily burn through them, especially the higher level abilities that cost multiple points.

Fable Wright

2017-02-07, 11:35 AM

Judging by this thread, I'm beginning to think that a Factotum with Imperious Command as his only non-Font of Inspiration feat might be pretty good, post 6th level.

At 9th level: Better than the Thug/Rogue in locking down foes that are not immune to mind-affecting effects. When dealing with with otherwise immune undead, you have Opportunistic Piety. When you face a Construct, you have the skills to affect its environment instead of fighting it head-on.

Plus, before that, you have access to things like Ghoul Glyph as a Standard action via Arcane Dilettante for no-save paralysis—something you can't get from a wand. And if push comes to shove, you have int to damage to make you not irrelevant in combat—which helps a lot, I think, when starting from level 1.

Sure, it tapers off at high level due to mind-affecting-immune enemies, but it's still pretty decent on the way up.

prufock

2017-02-07, 11:46 AM

And yet, I spent several hours yesterday trying and failing to do just that, and I think I'm at least decent at the character optimization game. So I say: prove it. Build me a mid-level Factotum who can do even one thing better than a Rogue or Thug Fighter with a wand of Divine Insight.

First, let me ask you to define "mid-op." It's a sliding scale, after all. If your version of mid-op is "halfway between useless and infinite TO cheese," I'll go ahead and admit defeat right now. What do you want to be able to do? Or, in an explicit numerical form, what CR would you need to be able to solo to be considered mid-op? What level? How much multi-classing allowed? Any source restrictions? What array or point buy?

You can do Sneaky Factotum, Melee Factotum, Ranged Factotum, Skill Monkey Factotum, Knowledge Factotum... you can not do them all at the same time. You'll have a few backup tricks, thanks to plenty of skill points and IPs that you can use on the fly, but you're going to have a primary role for any given build. Casting isn't one of them, so it's not really fair to compare them to a full caster.

martixy

2017-02-07, 11:47 AM

Forget Int-SAD indeed.

Factotum is, in fact, one of the MADdest classes of all, only wearing the disguise of Int-SADness. It dips into so many things, that an increase in just about every resource increase is going to do something productive for such a character. Conversely it feels the loss of resources much more acutely than other classes might.

daremetoidareyo

2017-02-07, 11:50 AM

Diplomancer? With cards over swords to end encounters?

Mato

2017-02-07, 12:15 PM

Grod_The_Giant: **** Factotums
GitP1: Have you tried feats?
GitP2: The fighter gets feats, it didn't help him.
GitP3: Let's argue.
GitP4: Have you tried feats?
GitP5: Factotums are uber if you allow infinite stacking points to fix them.
GitP6: Sort of like monks are uber so we disallow TWF to break them?
GitP7: Have you tried feats?
GitP8: Personally I've never been allowed flaws so that must mean all DMs ban them.
Tonymitsu: Have you tried items?
GitP9: Have you tried sacrificing gold instead of living & innocent creatures as part of your worship to evil deities so they lend you evil powers and pretend it's an act of good?
GitP10: Pretty sure gold isn't alive.
GitP11: Have you tried killing bad guys?
GitP12: Pretty sure killing anything for power is an act of evil and you can't sacrifice bad guys for rewards anyway.
GitP13: But, have you tried using feats?
Grod_The_Giant: **** Factotums
GitP14: Have you tried using wands?
GitP15 & GitP16: Feats like font of inspiration and imperious command help.
GitP17: Have you tried using skills?GitP18: Yep, factotums suck. :smallwink:

Fizban

2017-02-07, 12:23 PM

An amusing distillation, but I can't tell where Stealth Marmot and I are in there. Did we get skipped? My ego demands satisfaction.

Deophaun

2017-02-07, 12:38 PM

An amusing distillation, but I can't tell where Stealth Marmot and I are in there. Did we get skipped? My ego demands satisfaction.
Hmm... I think that would distill down to "Factotums are good if you don't do what they suck at." But they do suck at a lot of things.

The problem with the whole "make them fight on your terms" is that it's not always (or even most of the time) practical to do so, and you're also forcing the party to fight on your terms. If you have to race to stop the Lord Genocide from placing the MacGuffin of Plot at the Spot of Bad Things at the Time of We All Gonna Die, you don't really have the luxury of dictating anything. Which means that the Factotum is least useful when you most need everyone to be on their game.

They are fine for certain campaign playstyles, though.

Stealth Marmot

2017-02-07, 12:38 PM

An amusing distillation, but I can't tell where Stealth Marmot and I are in there. Did we get skipped? My ego demands satisfaction.

As does mine. It also demands cookies and that is one of the reasons I am a portly fellow.

Kurald Galain

2017-02-07, 12:39 PM

An amusing distillation, but I can't tell where Stealth Marmot and I are in there.

He's a stealth marmot, you've just failed your spot check.

ShurikVch

2017-02-07, 12:45 PM

Melee isn't much better. You have no good bonus damage sources, and it doubles down on the need for Strength.How about the Control Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm)?
If you force the subject to engage in combat, its attack bonus is equal to your base attack bonus + your Intelligence bonus, and its bonus on damage rolls is equal to your Intelligence bonus.

It's not really, I'm just illustrating how MAD they are. And if you're using IF, they are front-line combatants with light armor and a d8 HD...Factotums shouldn't be "front-line combatants" (outside of desperate circumstances); flanker and skirmisher fits them much better

So... skill tricks that work once per encounterExcept, there two of them - thus, twice per encounter

Also, how about the maneuvers? Shadow Garrote, Strike of the Broken Shield, and White Raven Strike are all able to make target flat-footed
And yes, they work better with dip in some initiator class. But it will be very good and strong dip

There is if you want to be good at said checks-- the big selling point is that you get to be better than normal characters at it.What's up with double standard?
Why "normal characters" getting away with being just as good as Factotum?

He's under the impression that anyone would actually take "it never says I lose any inspiration points" as meaning he can farm and store them by declaring encounters whenever he feels like it.Yes.
What's up about it?
When Artificer starts adventure packed to the gills with various magical trinkets - nobody bats an eye.
But when Factotum comes to adventure with spare inspiration points - it's suddenly a big deal?
Really?!

LOL really? So the outcome of this thread is that in order to make this class playable, you need either a cheesy loophole like this, or dark chaos shuffle (which is generally considered cheese), or flaws (which are also generally considered cheese), or feats like FMI (which are also generally considered cheese)...

Doesn't speak well for the class, now does it?"Cheese", you say...
Please, ask yourself:
Is it stronger than core Druid?
Is it stronger than core Sorcerer?
Is it stronger than core Bard?
Is it stronger than core Ranger?
Mark the "Yes" line with "X", and answer: is it really that cheesy - to be stronger than X?
And if you will say "You doesn't have to be strong in order to be cheese", then, please, give me your definition of "cheese"
After all, "Cheese is in the eye of Sheogorath" :smallcool:

Kurald Galain

2017-02-07, 12:50 PM

Mark the "Yes" line with "X", and answer: is it really that cheesy - to be stronger than X?
If you require a cheesy loophole, or dark cheese shuffle, or cheesy flaws, or cheesy feats, then yes you are cheesy.

Deophaun

2017-02-07, 12:54 PM

Is it stronger than core Druid? X
Is it stronger than core Sorcerer? X
Is it stronger than core Bard? X
Is it stronger than core Ranger? X

Why the X next to all of them? Because it makes Factotum a one-level class that anyone with an Int focus will take, even a Wizard, because you can add your Int modifier to any attack, damage, or save, without an effective limit.

The fondue pot doesn't do anything until you dip something into it.

Segev

2017-02-07, 12:59 PM

Cheese technically has nothing to do with relative power. It is most often invoked to maximize power, but just because a highly cheesy trick merely brings something from Tier 5 to Tier 3 doesn't make it not cheesy. Acceptable, perhaps, but still cheesy.

Cheese has to do with how far you have to stretch things to make it work. How many odd readings, how many clearly unintended interactions are involved.

ShurikVch

2017-02-07, 01:25 PM

If you require a cheesy loophole, or dark cheese shuffle, or cheesy flaws, or cheesy feats, then yes you are cheesy.It's funny: you cared enough to answer the question, yet utterly failed to do so
So, once again: is Factotum with Stockpiled IPs stronger than core Sorcerer?

Why the X next to all of them? Because it makes Factotum a one-level class that anyone with an Int focus will take, even a Wizard, because you can add your Int modifier to any attack, damage, or save, without an effective limit.

The fondue pot doesn't do anything until you dip something into it.Bah!
Wizard already the strongest class in the game
Either ban the class, or deal with it
At least, dipping in Factotum will slow spell progression by 1 level

Cheese technically has nothing to do with relative power. It is most often invoked to maximize power, but just because a highly cheesy trick merely brings something from Tier 5 to Tier 3 doesn't make it not cheesy. Acceptable, perhaps, but still cheesy.

Cheese has to do with how far you have to stretch things to make it work. How many odd readings, how many clearly unintended interactions are involved.Actually, pretty well said
But by that meter:
DCS - unintended assumption; light cheese
FMI - works exactly by the text; not a cheese, just strong
Flaws - unless you mean those "for Commoners", they are pretty restricting; not cheese at all
Stockpiled IPs - works exactly by the text; not a cheese

eggynack

2017-02-07, 01:31 PM

Stockpiled IPs - works exactly by the text; not a cheese
Working by the text doesn't make something not cheese. In fact, virtually all cheese works by the text. If it doesn't fit the RAW, then it's just wrong rather than cheese. The important thing in this particular case was whether this was intended to be what the rule is, and, in fact, whether a reasonable person reading the text would assume that the rules work as you've claimed.

Segev

2017-02-07, 01:51 PM

Latecomer to the thread failing to find the decryption: what is "FMI" and how is it used here?

As others have said, just because it's the RAW doesn't make it not cheese. All cheese is "within the RAW."

My Elan Psion->Beholder Mage build is extremely cheesy, but is well within the RAW. The major aspect of its cheese is that it cheats its way into a PrC not meant for players. Ever. But which could be finagled to work within the RAW if you are precise enough in your reading of its technicalities.

Early Entry tricks are cheese because, despite being legal within the RAW, they're finding ways around what was intended as at least, in part, a "minimum level" check. Or a "minimum mixture" check between two class archetypes.

All legal, but cheesy because they're exploiting unintended interactions. At the least, interactions you can be pretty sure the designers of at least one aspect were never thinking of.

Xerlith

2017-02-07, 02:00 PM

Honestly, I've never used a Factotum outside a 3-level dip in a practical build (Well, I ran a Gestalt character which went up to 8, but it was Gestalt).

The class really struggles to do one thing well, and doing one thing well is D&D 3.5's... Thing. So it's best used to round up a character's abiltiies, not form the core of them.

It makes a decent follower or a DMNPC of sorts, though.

eggynack

2017-02-07, 02:01 PM

Latecomer to the thread failing to find the decryption: what is "FMI" and how is it used here?
Faerie mysteries initiate. It's a feat applies intelligence to HP instead of constitution. The utility for a factotum is rather obvious.

Stealth Marmot

2017-02-07, 02:07 PM

How about the Control Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm)?

Why is it most people assume most DMs use psionics at all, much less freely?

Factotums shouldn't be "front-line combatants" (outside of desperate circumstances); flanker and skirmisher fits them much better

I'm actually going to be the front line fighter in the upcoming game (yikes) but I am finding ways to compensate. Combat Expertise, a shield, careful use of cunning defense, frequent tripping, and a high dexterity should help.

Except, there two of them - thus, twice per encounter

Okay...twice. So?

Anyway, investing a feat on quick draw is a major investment for a feat starved factotum.

Also, how about the maneuvers? Shadow Garrote, Strike of the Broken Shield, and White Raven Strike are all able to make target flat-footed
And yes, they work better with dip in some initiator class. But it will be very good and strong dip

Necessitating dips into other classes is not praise or argument for the class in general. If a class does not stand on its own without involving other classes, much less ones from books the group may not use, then you are not successfully arguing for the usefulness or validity of the class. A base class should be workable and useful from 1st level to 20th. If it requires other classes to be useful, it was not a well designed class.

I personally feel that the Factotum can be useful at most levels, if played right, without having to dip into other classes.

What's up with double standard?
Why "normal characters" getting away with being just as good as Factotum?

I'll address that point better, the idea behind it is that you can be as good as other characters without having to spend skill points on it. How often does someone REALLY have to make a balance check? Not often enough to warrant investing a bunch of skill points into it, but the Factotum gets a nice bonus on them anyway. It also adds to initiative and all strength and dex checks that aren't tied to a skill. I'm currently able to use my factotum to sneak and he has nearly the same check on hide and move silently as the rogue, and I only put 1 rank into those skills and he put 6 into each. And, as was mentioned, it can theoretically be used to make your character even better at those skills than other people.

What's up about it?
When Artificer starts adventure packed to the gills with various magical trinkets - nobody bats an eye.
But when Factotum comes to adventure with spare inspiration points - it's suddenly a big deal?
Really?!

Yes.

Because you are using poorly worded language to play a class in a way it was not intended. In scientific circles this is given the very scientific name of "A **** move."

Also, almost any DM will reject it.

It isn't about something being overly powerful it's about someone using word choice to be a smug jackass forcing people to have to write manuals with a lawyer present to find loopholes instead of counting on peoples ability to you know, not be a jerk. It's the reason that they actually had to spell out the effects of being dead because people would run around saying that death has no penalties associated with it by the book.

"Cheese", you say...
Please, ask yourself:
Is it stronger than core Druid?
Is it stronger than core Sorcerer?
Is it stronger than core Bard?
Is it stronger than core Ranger?
Mark the "Yes" line with "X", and answer: is it really that cheesy - to be stronger than X?
And if you will say "You doesn't have to be strong in order to be cheese", then, please, give me your definition of "cheese"
After all, "Cheese is in the eye of Sheogorath" :smallcool:
Cheese is intentionally using feats or written abilities in a way that was never intended by the designers in order to try to be clever rather than make a workable character meant to be played. It is the essence of trading out characters actually being 3D indivduals and distilling them down to the purpose of making a cetain situation optimal at the cost of something being beyond what was intended. It's convoluting the circumstance of making a character who was a half ogre and giving them a spiked chain and spending five feats o create the ultimate melee combatant without concern for group balance or character versatility or usefulness.

Cheese is when you make a character with the sole purpose of proving just how clever you are at exploiting rules.

It is not JUST min-maxing, it is not JUST metagaming, it is not JUST powergaming, it is not JUST rules lawyering, and it is not JUST munchkinning. Cheese is a special flavor that requires you to care only about pointing out a character build and saying "Look how clever I am."

On a side note I see Grod talking about wands of Divine Insight a lot. That assumes a lot. It assumes that not only is the spell allowed (likely), but also readily available for sale. One would think such a wand is something that would actually fetch a rather high price tag since it could potentially turn a mediocre crafter into a masterwork artist. Not to mention every wand charge is 90 gold. Also, the charge can only be active for one skill at a time while the factotum can use his freely. It also only ever goes to +8, the Factotum increases as it goes up. Also it stacks with the Factotum so....8th level Factotum can get +16 on a check. He just bought a castle for 3 gold.

icefractal

2017-02-07, 02:08 PM

When Artificer starts adventure packed to the gills with various magical trinkets - nobody bats an eye.
But when Factotum comes to adventure with spare inspiration points - it's suddenly a big deal?
Really?!If an Artificer used some method to get items for free, and showed up with an arbitrarily large amount of them, then yes people would bat an eye.

So, once again: is Factotum with Stockpiled IPs stronger than core Sorcerer?Yes ... yes it is. No Celerity in core, and no Arcane Fusion loops either. So unlimited actions > one action. The Factotum can simply walk through an entire adventure, stabbing anyone as needed, taking anything as needed, and then walk away, before anyone else gets an action.

"Oh, but I didn't mean that many stockpiled IP, I meant, like, 30 or so."
That's a BS argument. Using a NI loop, but choosing to stop at a point that you decide is "fair" is stealth-homebrewing your own content at best. And that's if it isn't just pretending to be limited with a character that can't really lose.

Deophaun

2017-02-07, 02:08 PM

Bah!
Wizard already the strongest class in the game
Yeah, that's the point: it's a feature that the strongest class in the game would forgo one of its class levels to pick up. Ergo, more powerful than druid.

Kurald Galain

2017-02-07, 02:11 PM

So, once again: is Factotum with Stockpiled IPs stronger than core Sorcerer?
It's funny: you cared enough to answer the question, yet utterly missed the point by a mile or two.

eggynack

2017-02-07, 02:16 PM

Yes ... yes it is. No Celerity in core, and no Arcane Fusion loops either. So unlimited actions > one action. The Factotum can simply walk through an entire adventure, stabbing anyone as needed, taking anything as needed, and then walk away, before anyone else gets an action.

Even with modes of getting extra actions available to other classes, this is still ridiculous. The factotum has access to literally as many actions as they want all the time here. It's practically infinite. And, on the scale of practical infinity, any sufficiently finite quantity of actions basically rounds down to zero. If you can force your turn to go ahead of the factotum's crazy action density, then that's a different matter, but if we're just hanging out in extra action space, the factotum is kinda reality crushing.

Cosi

2017-02-07, 02:24 PM

Stockpiled IPs - works exactly by the text; not a cheese

Everything in the game works exactly by the text. Chain Binding works exactly by the text. Wishing for a Ring of Wishes works exactly by the text. The fact that something works exactly by the text is true by definition, and therefore cannot be an argument that it is or is not in any category (except, I suppose, "things in the game").

ShurikVch

2017-02-07, 02:29 PM

Except, by the RAW, Factotum have no access to extra actions; Cunning Surge doesn't work - in order to get extra standard action, you should spend another standard action

Segev

2017-02-07, 02:36 PM

Ah. yes. Feat says "add Int instead of Con to hp." You take it on an INt-focused class.

That's not cheese. That's just using the feat exactly as plainly, deliberately written.

Stealth Marmot

2017-02-07, 02:39 PM

Except, by the RAW, Factotum have no access to extra actions; Cunning Surge doesn't work - in order to get extra standard action, you should spend another standard action

Cunning Surge (Ex): Starting at 8th level, you learn to push yourself when needed. By spending 3 inspiration points, you can take an extra standard action during your turn.

From the SRD:
Using an Extraordinary ability is not usually an action...

Doctor Despair

2017-02-07, 02:45 PM

Segev

2017-02-07, 02:47 PM

If using cunning surge is not an action, and cunning surge grants you a standard action, how does it work with contingent magic? If you approach a mage, and a contingent teleport triggers, can you cunning surge to attack the mage before the teleport?

Is it during your turn? You can take the extra action. However, it doesn't say that it takes place BEFORE whatever caused you to decide to do it, so if the contingent effect happens and then you decide to do it, no, the contingent effect has already happened.

It doesn't provide preemptive action, the way contingent effects and immediate actions do.

If it's not your turn, the fact that it can only be used on your turn means you can't do it at all.

Flickerdart

2017-02-07, 02:48 PM

Factotums are one of those classes that are improved immensely with dips into other classes. Does that make them a bad class? I don't think so. It's certainly not a point in their favour, and it relies on dippable classes to exist in the first place, but the class is greatly improved when another class provides focus for it. Cloistered Cleric is an obvious one - pick up Knowledge Devotion for free, as well as 2 more feats or abilities. Monk is actually quite good - you score some bonus feats like Improved Trip, and qualify for Carmendine Monk to make yourself way more INT-SAD. Factotum 3/Monk 2/CCleric 1 is one of my favourite E6 builds.

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-07, 02:51 PM

Why is it most people assume most DMs use psionics at all, much less freely?

Oldest, most popular D&D subsystem -and- in the SRD?

Okay...twice. So?

Unless your group's combats get drawn out well beyond the expected average length (mentioned in the DMG), that's around 40% of your turns. Unless he can tumble into a flanking position immediately, the rogue's not gonna sneak attack every round either.

Anyway, investing a feat on quick draw is a major investment for a feat starved factotum.

Again, quick-razor. You can use your iteratives and still make IF strikes with it and everything.

On a side note I see Grod talking about wands of Divine Insight a lot. That assumes a lot. It assumes that not only is the spell allowed (likely), but also readily available for sale. One would think such a wand is something that would actually fetch a rather high price tag since it could potentially turn a mediocre crafter into a masterwork artist. Not to mention every wand charge is 90 gold. Also, the charge can only be active for one skill at a time while the factotum can use his freely. It also only ever goes to +8, the Factotum increases as it goes up. Also it stacks with the Factotum so....8th level Factotum can get +16 on a check. He just bought a castle for 3 gold.

Two things;

The game itself presumes that you can buy whatever you like so long as you're in a large enough settlement. It's literally a given within the system. That said, the 4500 gp to buy one is extremely non-trivial to basically everyone but mid-level adventurers.

The vast majority of characters cannot activate wands of any kind. If UMD isn't a class skill then you've got to jump through a few non-trivial hoops to get your bonus up to the +19 necessary to guarantee activation and prevent you from being locked out of the device for a day 5% of the time.

Stealth Marmot

2017-02-07, 02:51 PM

If using cunning surge is not an action, and cunning surge grants you a standard action, how does it work with contingent magic? If you approach a mage, and a contingent teleport triggers, can you cunning surge to attack the mage before the teleport?

You could use the ability to give yourself a standard action, but his action would complete before you could use another action. The only type of action you could use to "interrupt" someone else's action is either an attack of opportunity or an immediate action. You could use the ability to GIVE yourself an extra standard action before he finishes his action, but you cannot actually PERFORM the extra standard action until he is done.

bean illus

2017-02-07, 02:55 PM

At 8th level, the factotum becomes deadly. 5 Inspiration Points means you can use Cunning Surge (3 points) once. There's just one thing: you gain more Inspiration Points every encounter.

It's not written anywhere that Inspiration Points have any limit. It's not written anywhere that your points are set to a certain amount at each encounter. You simply gain the number of points on the table every encounter. Save up; be frugal with your points, using them only in life-or-death situations.

After a long campaign you can potentially have thousands of points. Let's say you have 1000 points. You can use Cunning Surge to get 333 extra Standard Actions. That's a very dead BBEG.

That's ridiculous. There's not a sane DM in the world that would let that happen. In the first place Cunning Surge is 8th level.

In the second, the Facto could just get a job in town as a handyman, fix doors with his skills, and come away with 1k Insp in a few weeks.
With flaws a human Facto1 can have FoI 1,2,3,4 times. =10+2 ...or 12 points per encounter. At 8th, let's say 9th, he could have 3 more for 5,6,7 and be banking 30 per encounter. No other class in the game allows such a bank of your resources.

In fact, i'm not sure why i responded to this.

As for Facto power, i admit it's neither tier 1, or tier 2, and certainly doesn't leave the options for infinite abuse that wizards/etc do. On the other hand, I PREFER TIER 3 GAMES, and i think many other do also.
So where the OP is right in one way, it may just be that they prefer a tier 1-2 game.

Stealth Marmot

2017-02-07, 03:09 PM

Oldest, most popular D&D subsystem -and- in the SRD?

And yet 80% of the games I've played don't use it or use it sparingly.

Unless your group's combats get drawn out well beyond the expected average length (mentioned in the DMG), that's around 40% of your turns. Unless he can tumble into a flanking position immediately, the rogue's not gonna sneak attack every round either.

A lot of theory there, but I don't have strong enough feelings to argue this point anyway.

Again, quick-razor. You can use your iteratives and still make IF strikes with it and everything.

Okay assuming that the DM allows the skill trick with the weapon that effectively gives you something like quick draw and not actually having the quick draw feat, you're taking exotic weapon proficiency instead, or just taking the -4?

Two things;

The game itself presumes that you can buy whatever you like so long as you're in a large enough settlement. It's literally a given within the system. That said, the 4500 gp to buy one is extremely non-trivial to basically everyone but mid-level adventurers.

The vast majority of characters cannot activate wands of any kind. If UMD isn't a class skill then you've got to jump through a few non-trivial hoops to get your bonus up to the +19 necessary to guarantee activation and prevent you from being locked out of the device for a day 5% of the time.
One of the things I noticed about Use Magic Device is that I cannot seem to find any magic items that give a bonus to Use Magic Device. I can't help but think that is by design. Best you can get is the occasional item that helps charisma based checks.

Very hard skill to get dependently good rolls in, and Factotums can once a day get a +level on the check, which is nice. I will mention that using this skill DOES require a +19 to get it every time because it specifically says that you cannot take 10 with it at any time. I actually hadnt realized that without looking it up.

eggynack

2017-02-07, 03:13 PM

Actually, could this grant infinite actions, here meaning any arbitrary quantity of actions gained within a round? In particular, if you loosely define encounter, then it's plausible that you could use a standard action or two to begin and end an encounter. Say, by running up to a goblin, challenging them to one on one combat, and then running of while yelling, "I concede!" Let's say for the sake of argument that this takes two standard actions, and further assume there are two goblins reasonably close to each other, yet far away enough that we can consider them separate encounters. Surge twice eats six inspiration points, so seven inspiration points gained would be enough to pick up a point of profit from the combo. Easily accomplished by level eight. It's not like the goblins could alter their positioning or something, cause all of this is taking place on your turn. Build up enough standard actions and you can go out and accomplish whatever task you're aiming for before heading back to the goblins, thus allowing you to accomplish anything provided you'd be capable of accomplishing that thing in infinite time. And, of course, you can reestablish the combo when adventuring sometimes, so you can afford to be a little loose with the count. Crazy.

Deophaun

2017-02-07, 03:19 PM

Very hard skill to get dependently good rolls in, and Factotums can once a day get a +level on the check, which is nice. I will mention that using this skill DOES require a +19 to get it every time because it specifically says that you cannot take 10 with it at any time. I actually hadnt realized that without looking it up.
Or you could spend two feats (well, a feat and a magic location) to only need a +10. You know, because we have so many floating around.

Stealth Marmot

2017-02-07, 03:26 PM

Actually, could this grant infinite actions, here meaning any arbitrary quantity of actions gained within a round? In particular, if you loosely define encounter...

There is a reason WOTC went ahead and actually gave some pretty good ideas about what constitutes an "encounter".

You can get extra actions sure, but if you are out of combat actions really have no consequence since out of combat timetables usually aren't measured in actions.

eggynack

2017-02-07, 03:34 PM

There is a reason WOTC went ahead and actually gave some pretty good ideas about what constitutes an "encounter".
Eh, if that doesn't work based on some particular encounter definition rule, there's probably some way to modify it. Maybe with one of them self resetting traps set to summon monster or something. The core question is simply whether it's feasible to consistently enter a new encounter using two or three standard actions. I suspect the answer is yes, that if my solution doesn't work then one can be constructed.

You can get extra actions sure, but if you are out of combat actions really have no consequence since out of combat timetables usually aren't measured in actions.
You kinda are in combat, cause you're presumably still in the fight with the last goblin. And while folks don't typically travel with standard actions, I don't think there's anything stopping you from doing so. Some things probably exist outside the context of standard action piles. Some skill use in particular, I think. Still, there's lotsa stuff you can do with just infinite standards.

Dr.Samurai

2017-02-07, 03:39 PM

I mostly came here to say I love the title of the thread :smallbiggrin:.

But also, I thought the Factotum fit a character concept I have of a non-magical guy that's clever and generally has a solution to the problem at hand. "Non-magical" here means mostly that he isn't a caster class, the idea being that he dabbles in it and can cast some minor things.

So Grod and others, are you saying the class fails in general, or that it can't be optimized into some monstrosity? I'm feeling it's more the former.

Uncle Pine

2017-02-07, 03:56 PM

On the topic of Factotum getting stackable extra IPs during each encounter, other than saying it's ridiculous I'll mention that I'm fairly sure ToB defined "encounter" as any actual encounter or, out of combat, 5 minutes. This isn't actually needed to make NI inspiration points more broken (the fact that you can kill everything in an adventure during your turn by stacking actions over actions is already achievable), but you could replenish your gauge faster.

On the topic of Factotum being actually useful, I like mix-and-matching classes into obscene aberrations that occupy way more space than that present in a character sheet (even if I'm using abbreviations) that do exactly what I want, so I'm fairly happy with the nature of Factotum: it's a class that can give you a lot with a dip and can receive a lot from dips, so I think it's a great piece of game design. That said, I've never tried building a straight single classed Factotum and flaws are always available at my table, but I substancially agree with Stealth Marmot's analysis. I think Grod's analysis is far too pessimistic: a straight Factotum may not be that great, but compared to something like a straight Rogue? It rocks.

VisitingDaGulag

2017-02-07, 04:12 PM

It sounds like you're good enough to enumerate all the pieces, but not good enough to put them all together. If you'd like to see how they all fit, you can PM me.

Half of it is compounding FoI and that the inspiration points are spammable OP BS.

eggynack

2017-02-07, 04:13 PM

It sounds like you're good enough to enumerate all the pieces, but not good enough to put them all together. If you'd like to see how they all fit, you can PM me.
You could always just post how they all fit. It would be explicitly on topic. He sought builds and such.

Grod_The_Giant

2017-02-07, 04:51 PM

My point of comparison is... let's say a standard Swordsage-- Adaptive Style, Darkstalker, and Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade, maybe. Or an Incarnate taking mostly Expanded Capacity/Open Chakra feats and one of the assorted offense strategies (Totemist 2 dip or Share Soulmeld). Those are solid archetypes that fill similar roles, methinks. Incarnate is actually a pretty good comparison; it also has to search a bit for a punch at mid-to-high levels, but the solutions are both easier and better-- they're in the same book and tie into your same source of power.

Infinite IP is absurd, because it's an infinite loop-- I guarantee you that 99.99% of all D&D groups will look at you like you're crazy if you try. Whether or not it's actually overpowered (and it is, coughInfiniteStandardActionscough) is actually entirely irrelevant; drown healing won't really break most games either, but it won't fly in any of them. While we're at it, let's assume that Factotum class features actually function in an intuitive way-- Cunning Surge actually gives you actions, Cunning Strike stacks with itself, that sort of thing.

Dr.Samurai-- I'd argue that the class largely fails at both ends of the spectrum. At low levels of optimization you wind up with so little damage you'll feel useless, while a high levels you'll largely abandon the class after 3-8 levels, Monk style.

Oldest, most popular D&D subsystem -and- in the SRD?
And a 4th level power.

Unless your group's combats get drawn out well beyond the expected average length (mentioned in the DMG), that's around 40% of your turns. Unless he can tumble into a flanking position immediately, the rogue's not gonna sneak attack every round either.
But it's a lot less than 40% of your attacks, and it's not that much bonus damage.

Again, quick-razor. You can use your iteratives and still make IF strikes with it and everything.
The skill tricks and similar feats tend to require Quick-Draw, though.

@VisitingDaGulag-- don't be an ass. I don't see a way to make the class punch its weight at the Swordsage/PsyWar/Bard level I like to play at. If you do-- and if all you've got to rely on is the aforementioned cheesy reading of IP regeneration, than I'm dubious-- then please let me know.

icefractal

2017-02-07, 06:10 PM

I think Grod's analysis is far too pessimistic: a straight Factotum may not be that great, but compared to something like a straight Rogue? It rocks.I'm not convinced of that. It seems to me like at lower-op levels, the Factotum has somewhat higher utility but significantly worse combat performance. And the Rogue can mostly catch up in utility via wands/scrolls.

If the Factotum has all its pieces online - a significant amount of IP to get extra actions, a way to use IF consistently, and the dips/feats needed to be mostly Int-SAD, then it pulls ahead. But missing one of those really puts a big dent in it, more than missing any single element does for a Rogue.

That said, it is a class that's very friendly to tinkering and dumpster diving, without being completely broken when you do so. I can see why people like it. But if you want to make an effective character without assembling a virtual jigsaw puzzle? Maybe not.

Particle_Man

2017-02-07, 06:11 PM

I had fun with my factotum, but I admit I went "Font of Inspiration" all the way and it was a gray elf to boot.

Cosi

2017-02-07, 06:17 PM

If the Factotum has all its pieces online - a significant amount of IP to get extra actions, a way to use IF consistently, and the dips/feats needed to be mostly Int-SAD, then it pulls ahead. But missing one of those really puts a big dent in it, more than missing any single element does for a Rogue.

Also, the sources for a Fatotum's options are way more obscure than they are for a Rogue's. FoI is from a setting specific web enhancement. IF is from a 3.0 setting book. Those sources are not going to be allowed in many games.

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-07, 07:41 PM

And yet 80% of the games I've played don't use it or use it sparingly.

You asked a question, I gave you the most probable answer.

I've seen more games that allow psionics than don't and allow it myself. Anecdotes are anecdotal.

A lot of theory there, but I don't have strong enough feelings to argue this point anyway.

WotC said a typical combat lasts 5 rounds and getting into position to deliver sneak attacks is not something you can ever guarantee. I'm quite comfortable with the "theory" presented.

Okay assuming that the DM allows the skill trick with the weapon that effectively gives you something like quick draw and not actually having the quick draw feat, you're taking exotic weapon proficiency instead, or just taking the -4?

The skill tricks don't care about the weapon and, yes, it switches quick-draw for EWP. It's a good trade though since you can make all of your iterative attacks with the same weapon and get IF with all of them.

One of the things I noticed about Use Magic Device is that I cannot seem to find any magic items that give a bonus to Use Magic Device. I can't help but think that is by design. Best you can get is the occasional item that helps charisma based checks.

Competence bonus to skill items are the single most straight-forward custom item to make. Even if that's explicitly disallowed, it's hardly the only trick.

Doesn't matter to the factotum, of course, but it's enough of a hurdle to make widespread use of the wand unlikely.

Very hard skill to get dependently good rolls in, and Factotums can once a day get a +level on the check, which is nice. I will mention that using this skill DOES require a +19 to get it every time because it specifically says that you cannot take 10 with it at any time. I actually hadnt realized that without looking it up.

Yeah, it's not -as- trivial as many forumites saying "get it" would seem to suggest but it's a worthwhile skill to grab if you reasonably can. If you can't though, leave it.

And a 4th level power.

I was referring to psionics in general. Control body availability for a factotum is going to be through UPD.

But it's a lot less than 40% of your attacks, and it's not that much bonus damage.

It's the same as sneak attack and a quick razor makes it -all- of your attacks as long as the foe is flat-footed. Fortunately, cunning surge will allow you to full-attack after moving even without having to buy a tigerclaw bracer with sudden leap.

The skill tricks and similar feats tend to require Quick-Draw, though.

Some do, some don't. Also, isn't quickdraw one of the feats you can get as a weapon enhancement?

Grod_The_Giant

2017-02-07, 08:15 PM

I was referring to psionics in general. Control body availability for a factotum is going to be through UPD.
At a cost of 21,000 for a dorje, or 700 a pop with power stones, each lasting one encounter?

It's the same as sneak attack and a quick razor makes it -all- of your attacks as long as the foe is flat-footed. Fortunately, cunning surge will allow you to full-attack after moving even without having to buy a tigerclaw bracer with sudden leap.
Except that it's really hard to reliably render a target flat-footed for more than one attack.

Some do, some don't. Also, isn't quickdraw one of the feats you can get as a weapon enhancement?
Flick of the Wrist, Hidden Blade, and Sudden Draw all do. And I think so, but qualifying via items is always sketchy.

Anthrowhale

2017-02-07, 08:40 PM

Arcane Dilettante seems to be designed to support persistent spell since every spell is different, drawn from a huge good pool, and you have only a small number of spells.

Not all techniques would work though, because the spells seem to be cast as a spell-like ability. Techniques for adding metamagic retroactively (Incantatrix Metamagic Effect) and deep reduction in a prepared spell's metamagic costs (Metanode Spell, Cleric of Mystra at a holy site) could work. That's all Faerun specific. The Incantatrix approaches are best done by an ally, but maybe you could dip a level of cleric of mystra or find a really nice earth node and play with an acorn of far travel?

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-07, 08:42 PM

At a cost of 21,000 for a dorje, or 700 a pop with power stones, each lasting one encounter?

When I want access to a single power reliably, I play a kalashtar and use this article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a).

A tattoo of control body with a capacitor and a transducer costs 3900 gp total.

Except that it's really hard to reliably render a target flat-footed for more than one attack.

Difficult but doable. I'm not gonna say it's even as good as sudden strike but it -does- stack with sneak attack through cunning strike and/or cunning brilliance emulating a rogue's sneak attack in the late game.

Flick of the Wrist, Hidden Blade, and Sudden Draw all do. And I think so, but qualifying via items is always sketchy.

Acrobatic backstab doesn't and a solid initiative doesn't hurt either. Heck, I know you mentioned marbles before but you suggested you'd need more than a handful. Why? You can just collect them after your side wins and they're dirt cheap.

BTW, have you considered options that rip up the ground and make difficult terrain? Just a thought.

Mato

2017-02-07, 11:37 PM

An amusing distillation, but I can't tell where Stealth Marmot and I are in there. Did we get skipped? My ego demands satisfaction.

GitP19: I'm a feat, have you tried using me?
:smallbiggrin:

From the SRD: Using an Extraordinary ability is not usually an action...
*rolls up a newspaper and swings* Bad Stealth Marmot! Bad!
Don't use weak arguments that require debates over what is normal or how to interpret words.

Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted.

Anyway, the root problem you all sound like you're butting heads over comes down to the ideology of multiple Standard Actions vs the practical usage of them. For example, participate A things having twenty extra standard actions is extremely powerful because you can use wands, and that idea translates to every powerful spell they can think of. Participate B is looking at the details such as not having the gold to actually pull that off and it's not twenty extra actions but closer to one or two.

Every single time participate A gets shot down he just chooses another vague idea, like spamming maneuvers, because he believes those extra standard actions should be broken even if he cannot think of a way to do it. But that is participate B's problem with the topic. In the right hands extra standard actions are broken but the factotum's only choice is to use it as a "+1 attack" and that's not even a "powerful" usage to begin with.

The class needs something else to take advantage of his class feature and when you get to discussing that, it's easy to just say it's the other thing and you could replace the factotum with celerity/contingency/timestop/beltofbattle/whiteraventactics/timehop/haste/alterself or any other thing else that grants extra actions. The factotum's role is easily replaced and so it by definition cannot have much value.

Lans

2017-02-08, 01:05 AM

The game itself presumes that you can buy whatever you like so long as you're in a large enough settlement. It's literally a given within the system. That said, the 4500 gp to buy one is extremely non-trivial to basically everyone but mid-level adventurers.

I think the DMG says you can usually find what ever you like as long as your in a large enough settlement.

Dagroth

2017-02-08, 01:19 AM

I think the DMG says you can usually find what ever you like as long as your in a large enough settlement.

I've got a Wall of Salt I can sell you! :smallamused:

Kurald Galain

2017-02-08, 02:19 AM

Oldest, most popular D&D subsystem -and- in the SRD?
It would be interesting to take a poll on this, but I seriously doubt it's popular. Despite it being in the SRD (just like the epic rules and some UA variants), I've only rarely seen any campaign using them. The third panel applies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html).

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-08, 02:36 AM

I've got a Wall of Salt I can sell you! :smallamused:

Ahem:

Every community has a gold piece limit based on its size and population... Anything having a price under that limit is most likely available, whether it be mundane or magical.

You were saying?

Dagroth

2017-02-08, 02:43 AM

Ahem:

You were saying?

That I have a Wall of Salt.... and I can sell it to you.... :smallbiggrin:

OldTrees1

2017-02-08, 02:51 AM

That I have a Wall of Salt.... and I can sell it to you.... :smallbiggrin:

TIL giantitp is large enough of a settlement for a Wall of Salt to be available for purchase.

Unfortunately I have enough salt & pepper so I cannot buy your wall at this time.

Dagroth

2017-02-08, 02:52 AM

TIL giantitp is large enough of a settlement for a Wall of Salt to be available for purchase.

Unfortunately I have enough salt & pepper so I cannot buy your wall at this time.

Naw, I'm a PC. I'm not limited by community wealth. I'm a MurderHobo!

Zombimode

2017-02-08, 03:04 AM

It would be interesting to take a poll on this, but I seriously doubt it's popular. Despite it being in the SRD (just like the epic rules and some UA variants), I've only rarely seen any campaign using them. The third panel applies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html).

Really?

Every Eberron campaign uses psionics by default, and from what I gather Eberron is quite a beloved setting (it is certainly my favorite printed setting).

Personally I've never played in a campaign that didn't include psionics, but this may be the result of me being the DM or playing with People i've DM'ed for in the past :smallwink:

OldTrees1

2017-02-08, 03:12 AM

Really?

Every Eberron campaign uses psionics by default, and from what I gather Eberron is quite a beloved setting (it is certainly my favorite printed setting).

Personally I've never played in a campaign that didn't include psionics, but this may be the result of me being the DM or playing with People i've DM'ed for in the past :smallwink:

To add a 3rd voice:

I have always seen Psionics in the allowed content pile. Only 2 psionic characters were run (1 Cerebremancer/Mystic Theruge, and 1 Pyrokineticist) in all the campaigns and characters. I remember 0 psionic NPCs.

Lans

2017-02-08, 07:46 AM

Stealth Marmot

2017-02-08, 07:52 AM

*rolls up a newspaper and swings* Bad Stealth Marmot! Bad!
Don't use weak arguments that require debates over what is normal or how to interpret words.

OW! HEY! OW! Ohhhh there's a sale at Best Buy-OW!

How is it a weak argument when the SRD flat out point to "No Action" being the default?

He was arguing that using the extraordinary ability required a standard action to use, and I pointed out that using an extraordinary action was "No action" by default, so he would have to show me where it shows otherwise.

That said, I don't WANT to use the analysis of RAW as my argument, I instead prefer figuring out reasonable Rules as INTENDED, but sadly one cannot argue reasonable with a cheesemaker. That's why Sheogorath is their patron.

Getting back to the topic at hand, I can't help but wonder why Grod hasn't pointed out that the Factotum's most powerful ability is duplicated with a Belt of Battle.

I like the Factotum, but I acknowledge that it has its weaknesses, and given sufficient access to certain not entirely unreasonable items and settings can be outshone on most every level.

However, you could argue the same about a lot of classes, and the Factotum is not meant to be one thing but a bit of everything, with flexible builds and a wide range of abilities that are situational, but they gain quite a few of them so the situations will keep popping up.

Who heals the cleric when the cleric goes unconscious? The Factotum. Who gets in melee when the fighter is stunned or knocked out? The Factotum. Who finds the trap when the rogue is unconscious or captured? The Factotum. Who chats up the town when you don't have a bard, or keeps everyone alive in the wild when there is no ranger or druid? The Factotum.

Yes, it is possible to use a magic item or some other method to do these things, but the class is designed to be a more effective version, and magic items may not be readily available for a variety of reasons. Plus they make great skill monkeys.

It is pretty hard to argue for a situational ability when you aren't sure how often the situation happens, so it is pretty hard to argue it when you plan out encounters in your head based on what people consider "The usual" battle. Some DMs do tend to give you straightforward combats, and those "situational" abilities rarely come up and aren't worth much. On the other hand, some DMs love to make the encounters unusual. I was DMing a Pathfinder game and I had the PCs attacked while they were on a rickety rope bridge. All of a sudden that training in acrobatics the monk had and the armor check penalty the paladin had started to REALLY matter.

Point is, in my opinion, the Factotum is the class that is most likely to be helpful in that situation you could never plan for.

lylsyly

2017-02-08, 07:57 AM

It sounds like you're good enough to enumerate all the pieces, but not good enough to put them all together. If you'd like to see how they all fit, you can PM me.

You could always just post how they all fit. It would be explicitly on topic. He sought builds and such.

See as well I would like (always learning I am).

Stealth Marmot

2017-02-08, 08:06 AM

Is getting manyshot worth getting over 3 FOI? At 9th you get 1 extra standard, so 4 arrows with many shot. With 3 FOI you get 1 full attack with 3 extra standards, so 5 arrows. At a higher attack bonus

I think this sums it up quite well actually. With 3 FOI you effectively get the same attacks, but ignore the -4 penalty, and get an extra attack on top of that that is only 1 lower than what one of the manyshot attacks would have been.

In the Manyshot's case, you do get a move action so you can move, but you can get the same by dropping the 5th attack.

On top of that, the FOI route adds flexibility since those points don't necessarily have to go towards the extra standard attacks, or the extra standard attacks could be a melee attack so the character becomes better in close combat.

The only situation I think that manyshot would be useful is if the character got bonus feats from being a multiclass fighter.

I think earlier I was actually praising the idea of manyshot, but I have changed my mind when presented with this.

Fizban

2017-02-08, 09:08 AM

Except with 3 FOI instead of PBS/Rapid Shot/Manyshot, you lack both Rapid Shot and the +1's from PBS, which aren't nothing. But more importantly: Manyshot is a single attack roll. That synergizes with all sorts of things that only affect single rolls, such as your ability to boost a single attack roll, or using True Strike or Gloves of Fortunate Striking. If you take the ranged feats it's because you expect to spend a lot of rounds doing Rapid Shot, and you upgrade to Manyshot for the mobility and efficiency.

Compare: move and attack and Cunning Surge for an extra attack= 2 at full bonus for 3 points. Move and manyshot with Cunning Insight to offset the manyshot penalty: 2 at full bonus for 1 point. Taking FOI three times gives you roughly double the total points, but manyshot gives you triple. Or consider full attacks: Cunning Surge for an extra attack at full, 1 point. Cunning Insight to offset your first iterative penalty, 1 point. Rapid Shot: 0 points. FOI is better for maximum one round burst damage, which is nothing new, but specializing still makes you more efficient in that specialization.

Grod_The_Giant

2017-02-08, 09:11 AM

When I want access to a single power reliably, I play a kalashtar and use this article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a).

A tattoo of control body with a capacitor and a transducer costs 3900 gp total.
Okay, that's a legitimately really cool find. I'm not sure that it'll be repeatable often enough (you'd need to dump 14 pp to recharge it once, if I'm reading it right?), but those are really cool.

Acrobatic backstab doesn't and a solid initiative doesn't hurt either. Heck, I know you mentioned marbles before but you suggested you'd need more than a handful. Why? You can just collect them after your side wins and they're dirt cheap.
My issue with marbles is the action cost to use 'em; as far as I can tell it'll default to a Standard.

BTW, have you considered options that rip up the ground and make difficult terrain? Just a thought.
That... doesn't do anything to being flat-footed? Unless I'm missing something in the Rules Compendium or some such obscure place?

prufock

2017-02-08, 11:53 AM

Except that it's really hard to reliably render a target flat-footed for more than one attack.
Grease is available at level 3. Glitterdust and Blindness/Deafness are available at level 5. Level 10 gets you Greater Invisibility. Level 3 gives you Int to initiative. You argue in the OP that this wastes IP and actions, but that's no different than a psywar or bard needing to "waste" PP/slots and actions to buff. Plus, dropping any Grease, Glitterdust, or Blindness on an enemy helps the whole party. These are just the ways that are native to the class. All you need other than that is Quick Draw or a Quickrazor, so one feat (or a 1-level dip into Master of Masks, as per Person_Man's Haberdasher build).

Iaijutsu is a pretty valid way of gaining bonus damage. No, it's not always reliable if you can't find a way to get your opponent flat-footed, but doing so is not that hard. You can also combine it with Cunning Strike and/or Cunning Insight, both of which can be backup for when you can't get your opponent flat-footed.

I don't see a way to make the class punch its weight at the Swordsage/PsyWar/Bard level I like to play at.
These are decent standards for comparison. All 3 of these classes have several of the same issues as you bring up for factotums.
All three are MAD. Melee classes require Str/Dex/Con, and PsyWar and Swordsage both want Wis. Bard is less reliant on other stats because bardic music abilities largely don't care about stats, so a Cha-only focused bard can work, but generally you'll want at least some Dex/Int as well.
All three have medium BAB, same as Factotum.
Full casters are beating you. Of course.
Archery feats are requisite for anyone focusing on archery.
Two have d8 hit die on melee-centric classes; bard is d6 but less of a melee focus. At least PsyWar gets heavy armor.
Except for PsyWar, these classes have no bonus feats, and some feats are "mandatory" for certain builds.
Skills. Swordsage and Bard get the same flat number, but with less priority on Int, will have lower overall skill points. PsyWar has terrible skill availability. How does either deal with traps? How do they do with investigation? Plagues? Social situations? Subterfuge? Bards (particularly with Bardic Knack) are great, of course.
Limited resources. Early game, Bards and PsyWars suffer from low number of uses of their abilities per day. With repeated encounters, Factotums don't have the same issue. Swordsages edge out all of them with generous maneuvers per encounter and refresh mechanic. By mid-game, Bards have spells per day and bardic music uses to go for a long adventuring day. PsyWars can vary depending on how much augmentation is required for their powers and how much you rely on your highest-level powers. Worst case (all high-level augmented powers), you're still getting only 2-3 per day. Best case (low-level non-augmented powers), you have tons. Factotums are getting 5-6 IP/encounter, enough for a Cunning Surge or two, or for other uses at 1 IP apiece. Their highest-level spell is keeping pace, but they get fewer per day. By end game, bards are swimming in powerful spell slots. PsyWars have lots of PP, but their uses again vary depending on augmentation and the level powers you use.

You haven't really answered my earlier question of "What do you want factotums to be able to do?" How much damage per round is enough? How high do you want AC to get? What spell access would you like? and so on.

Uncle Pine

2017-02-08, 12:10 PM

Grease is available at level 3. Glitterdust and Blindness/Deafness are available at level 5. Level 10 gets you Greater Invisibility.
Of all these, only Grease makes an opponent flat-footed (and only if the opponent doesn't have 5 ranks in Balance). The others deny an opponent's Dex bonus to AC, which isn't the same thing.

prufock

2017-02-08, 12:53 PM

Of all these, only Grease makes an opponent flat-footed (and only if the opponent doesn't have 5 ranks in Balance). The others deny an opponent's Dex bonus to AC, which isn't the same thing.

Rules Compenidum, p92: "If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you."
Rules Compendium, p92: "Total cover or total concealment usually obviates the need for a Hide check, since nobody can see you anyway."
SRD, linked (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded): "All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character."
SRD, linked (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility): "It [the invisible creature] has total concealment.

Assuming "usually" means "unless otherwise noted," you're flat-footed vs creatures you can't see. It's possible to interpret it differently, but it seems explicit to my reading of it.

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-08, 01:01 PM

Okay, that's a legitimately really cool find. I'm not sure that it'll be repeatable often enough (you'd need to dump 14 pp to recharge it once, if I'm reading it right?), but those are really cool.

12, actually. The first of the 7 needed to manifest the power is pulled off of your PP reserve at the beginning of the day so you only need to transduce the other 6. See also, manifester dagger/ shuriken.

My issue with marbles is the action cost to use 'em; as far as I can tell it'll default to a Standard.

Fair enough.

That... doesn't do anything to being flat-footed? Unless I'm missing something in the Rules Compendium or some such obscure place?

I was pretty sure that sufficiently difficult terrain required a balance check. I'll see if I can dig it up.

ShurikVch

2017-02-08, 01:52 PM

Also, there's Thunderlance spell

Instead of using your Strength modifier, you use the higher of your Intelligence modifier or Charisma modifier as a bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls.

Uncle Pine

2017-02-08, 03:48 PM

Rules Compenidum, p92: "If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you."
Rules Compendium, p92: "Total cover or total concealment usually obviates the need for a Hide check, since nobody can see you anyway."
SRD, linked (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded): "All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character."
SRD, linked (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility): "It [the invisible creature] has total concealment.

Assuming "usually" means "unless otherwise noted," you're flat-footed vs creatures you can't see. It's possible to interpret it differently, but it seems explicit to my reading of it.
I was looking at the SRD, which doesn't mention blinding an enemy (or being invisible) as a way to make him flat-footed. Nice to know it works as per Rules Compendium.

Blinded
The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

Invisible
Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.)

Invisibility
Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (Invisibility has no effect against blinded or otherwise nonsighted creatures.) An invisible creature's location cannot be pinpointed by visual means, including darkvision. It has total concealment; even if an attacker correctly guesses the invisible creature's location, the attacker has a 50% miss chance in combat.
I guess this solves the issue of qualifying for Iaijutsu Focus. Pop Greater Invisibility and go to town.

Grod_The_Giant

2017-02-08, 04:16 PM

I guess this solves the issue of qualifying for Iaijutsu Focus. Pop Greater Invisibility and go to town.
Yeah, that does make everything a whole lot easier.

You haven't really answered my earlier question of "What do you want factotums to be able to do?" How much damage per round is enough? How high do you want AC to get? What spell access would you like? and so on.
Umm... let's say the equivalent of around a "plain" attack or two plus 1d6/level.

[list] All three are MAD. Melee classes require Str/Dex/Con, and PsyWar and Swordsage both want Wis. Bard is less reliant on other stats because bardic music abilities largely don't care about stats, so a Cha-only focused bard can work, but generally you'll want at least some Dex/Int as well.
Sure, though the Swordsage has the world's easiest access to Dex-to-Damage and the PsyWar has more buffing potential. In any case, it's more than people always should "the Factotum is totally SAD" when that's not even a little bit true.

Except for PsyWar, these classes have no bonus feats, and some feats are "mandatory" for certain builds.
Feats are a gripe because everyone seems to assume you can take multiple copies of FoI on top of whatever normal feats you need for archery or whatnot.

PairO'Dice Lost

2017-02-08, 07:26 PM

Chiming in here as a DM who allows and encourages all books, setting material, psionics, WotC site content, Dragon, the DCFS, flaws, Iaijutsu Focus, Faustian bargains, sacrifice rules, and all the other crazy stuff as long as all PCs end up roughly at the same power level. Yes, allowing flaws, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, lots of Fonts of Inspiration, control body access, and the like do give the factotum a nice boost; I also like Factotum X/Martial Monk 1 with Carmendine Monk (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/champions-of-valor--28/carmendine-monk--292/index.html) for early Int to AC and a relatively open-ended extra feat.

However, a rising tide lifts all boats. Unless for some reason a DM is going out of his way to give the factotum goodies and not any other PCs, the swordsage, psychic warrior, and bard (to use the three comparison classes mentioned) also get the same stuff. Give the factotum two flaws to for PBS+Rapid Shot or FoI+FoI, and that gives a swordsage the feats for Weapon Finesse+Shadow Blade or a bard the feats for, say, DFI+Snowflake Wardance. Give the factotum access to a control body tattoo, and that gives a bard a psionic freedom of movement tattoo so he can cast and sing without fear of being grappled or a psychic warrior a psychic reformation tattoo for optimal power selection. So the "But with X, Y, and the Z, the factotum can..." argument helps with "Why can't the factotum do anything?" but not with "What can the factotum do better than anyone else?"

In my experience, factotums are very useful in two kinds of campaigns. First, in hexcrawls, intrigue- or realm-management-focused campaigns, and other campaigns where combats are less prominent (one or two normal combats per session, or lots of random encounters, as opposed to lots of normal combats or one or two setpiece encounters) and having depth and breadth of noncombat abilities is sufficiently necessary that giving up combat capability for out-of-combat capability is a worthwhile trade, "has every skill as a class skill" and "can pull random obscure arcane spells out of thin air every day" (and to a lesser extent "can pull really high skill bonuses out of thin air a few times per day") are quite valuable class features, where in more standard campaigns a rogue can cover the skills you care about and the wizard will have good-enough utility spells. Second, in a large party (6 or more PCs), the more PCs you have the more they tend to specialize (e.g. in a stereotypical fighter/wizard/rogue/cleric party the wizard has to cover a lot of different areas to cover the "generic arcane caster" role, while in a wizard/wizard/fighter/cleric/rogue/bard party the arcanists might split into focused buffer wizard, blaster wizard, and face bard roles, leaving no one to cover divination, teleportation, etc.), so having a generalist to fill in the gaps becomes more desirable.

And yes, in a gestalt campaign factotums make a very good second side for a wizard, psion, warblade, or other Int-focused character. But low-combat, high-party-size, and/or gestalt campaigns are by no means the norm, and everything-goes campaigns that let any class reach its full potential aren't all that common either. As a standard contributor to an average party in an average game, a factotum doesn't really bring anything to the table that any other class can't do equally well or better. A rogue or swift hunter generally makes a better skirmisher, a bard or mystic ranger (or, if built well, an incarnate or binder) generally makes a better fifth wheel for a fighter/wizard/rogue/cleric party, a spellthief or Desert Wind+Shadow Hand swordsage generally makes a better "rogue with a splash of flashy magic" type, and so forth. A factotum can do all of those things, but can focus on no more than one of them or maybe two at once, and once you decide what kind of factotum you want to build, well, making the same kind of character but with one of those other classes is usually better.

Lord Haart

2017-02-09, 08:32 AM

So in other words, the challenge is to:
1. Build a straight Factotum 8, no dipping. Flaws (and traits, i suppose?) are disallowed.
2. Focused enough to have a main "that's what i do to own the combat encounter" schtick.
3. Good enough in that schtick that, if compared side by side to a Fighter 8, Rogue 8 and Swordsage 8, each of which are decently but not exceptionally optimised and each of which also is focused on having a strong main combat schtick (default for fighters since they suck without it, not so much for swordsages who are, like factotums, more about breadth of options than about a strong focus, and require feat tax to function well), Grod would rather pick the factotum to play in a standart 4-man party.
4. Still able to contribute as well as a Swordsage or a combat-optimised (not skill-optimised) Rogue in a noncombat situations.
5. Bonus points for elegance, like not requiring a DrMag-only weapon to abuse a 3.0 skill and not turning into a martial initiator-lite.

Correct?

Well, it's a humongous overstatement to say it's an unattainable goal. However, a word of warning: yes, factotum IS a somewhat unfocused, breadth-over-focus class; and it is definitely among the huge number of 3.5 classes which have a low optimisation floor and therefore require more than just their class abilities to stand up from that floor. You can't just look at the Featless Human Factotum and expect him to be good — the Factotum does need to have a good race, or assemble a pretty focused array of feats, or use some powerful items and use them better than an Expert would, or dip various classes (see the quote in my sig). Both Fighter and Rogue suffer from it even harder, and even a stereotypical 2h-power attacking easy bake Barbarian is far less impressive when it's a human with standart array instead of a point-buy water orc. Even the swordsage, while being a ToB class and thusly having a higher optimisation floor, is not that great out of the box without at least some "morning makeup reflex" optimisation which you probably reflexively calculate into your estimates.

So with that said, my first go, literally one of the first things that came to mind (i don't have much time left until i'll have stuff to do). A build stub, not a complete build.

Lord Bluefire the Poor Man's Evoker
Azurin Factotum 8

Dex>Con=Int>Cha>Wis>Str or

Level 1 feat: Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving spittle)
Commentary: in my stalwart opinion, whenever you are thinking of making an archer below level 12, Dissolving spittle can do ranged combat better than what you had in mind. Especially if you were going to have a source of bonus damage — why pay the feat tax when you can get a ranged touch attack for cheaper?

Azurin bonus feat: any +1 essentia (say, Soulsight because Azure Toughness is just too boring)

Level 3 feat: Mortalbane.

Level 6 feat: Knowledge devotion.

Typical spells prepared: Chain Missile (SpC; for us it's basically a way to prepare a second casting of Magic Missile plus some extra damage); Magic Missile; Snowball swarm (SpC).

So what?

1. At his level, lord Bluefire has 5 inspiration points.
2. Bluefire can use following modes of attack:
— Free of inspiration, all day every day — Dissolving spittle: ranged touch attack (attack bonus +6+dex mod+Knowledgedevotion, -4 when attacking into melee) for 3d6+Knowledgedevotion touch attack. Not very factotum-ish — an Azurin of any class may nab it just as freely — but a decent backup option to default to, and compatible with both our damage boosts (Cunning Insight to get +8 damage for 1 inspiration, and Cunning Strike to get +1d6 per 1 inspiration if we can catch the opponent sneak-attackable).
— 1 IP: Dissolving Spittle+Cunning Insight — 3d6+8+Knowledgedevotion (average 21.5, assuming no real effort went into boosting Knowledge Devotion checks). Still a touch attack, and we can choose to Cunning Insight after we know we're gonna hit.
— 2 IP: Mortalbane Cunning Insight Snowball Swarm. 10 ft-radius burst, 4d6+2d6+8+Knowledgedevotion damage, Reflex half. 32 average damage; not impressive (for "impressive", we use missiles), but it's an AoE; it's meant to be used when you can catch multiple enemies in the burst. It's not party-friendly, but that's where it being not as big as Fireball is somewhat of a blessing.
— 5 IP: our little nova. Namely, a Mortalbane (Cunning Insight x4) Magic Missile/Chain Missile. For Magic Missile, that calculates to 86 average damage (with a very little deviation) — 21.5 per missile — not that hard of a nova for level 8 if you just look at the numbers, but it's magic missile-based, meaning no save, no attack roll, no concealment, no incorporeality, no resists. For Chain Missile, the primary damage is the same but the spell also rebounds to up to 4 nearby enemies, dealing avg. 54 damage to each. On Chain Missile, you can also choose to skip Cunning Insight and have the primary target, too, eat only 54 damage instead of 84; however, delivering Cunning Insight damage via missiles is more efficient than delivering it via Dissolving Spittle.

Guaranteed to contribute well to at least two encounters/day, able to keep contributing in a much weaker manner to the later ones. And, of course, fully able to resort to all the optimisation-via-skill-use (except IF, obviously), optimisation-via-skill-tricks and optimisation-via-items (being better at UMD AND UPD than every "comparison" class) tricks, many of which have been brought up earlier in this very thread; i'm not currently in the mood (nor do i have the time right now) to delve into them. It is, however, true that Bluefire has to sink lots of skill points into knowledge skills, and he will lose much power when fighting against constructs and outsiders.

I'll try to deliver a few more sample builds sometime later.

In general, spells DO remain one of the strongest features the class gets (after all, neither the Swordsage nor the Rogue have native access to Haste, while Factotum does; in party play, this matters), and Cunning Insight is actually undervalued at the levels we're talking about (+8 bonus to attack/damage/saving throws is something very comparable to ToB maneuvers).