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Morphic tide
2017-02-06, 10:21 PM
All of us who have played D&D or Pathfinder, and many of us who have played other d20 games, know Vancian magic. Spell slots of limited number with concrete levels and specified uses of them.

I understand that some of us wonder why Vancian magic exists from a lore perspective. I ran into a possible explanation for prepared spells on accident in a thread about Psionics(it devolved into an argument about spell points versus Vancian spells).

Now, I was not satisfied with the explanation given for prepared spells, as it gave no reason for spell slots. Being the mildly-physics-minded person I am, I wound up thinking about it in terms of several physics things. Like meta-stability, where it takes effort to get something from one stat to the actual lowest energy state, and electron orbits, which have energy, orbit size, how many fit into an orbit and the shape of the orbits all defined by electrical repulsion and attraction.

The result I came to was that Sorcerers or Clerics are the "source" of it. The rules of Vancian spell casting are defined by either divine intent or the fluke of natural evolution(keep in mind that in these worlds, magic is natural). Basically, it's the physics of magic that cause magic to tend towards Vancian spell slots, but it's not an unbreakable rule set.

So, the idea I had was that slots are basically the practical quanta of magic. You can have less than a Cantrip in magic, but it will either morph into a spell point form that acts very differently and does not play nice with slot-based magic or do it's best to clump into a spell slot. Higher level slots are the result of various stuff relating to potential energy and charge interactions. The actual magic content of a 2nd level slot really is twice that of a 1st level slot, while the magic content of a 3rd level slot is actually a 2nd level slot plus a 1st level one.

The difference in power of from potential energy. Coherent spells scale exponentially, but most forms of using spells as fuel scale linearly. The increased density/binding energy causes the natural efficiency and potential output of higher level slots to be higher in power, but the actual magic content increases linearly.

But why is the slot layout the way it is? That, in this pointless theory crafting thread, is again comparable to electrons. But in this case, it's how slots are held. Magical creatures do it naturally to hold and generate the slots their SLAs use, but creatures of species that don't have SLAs have to go to the meta-stable slots. Which organize in "orbits" that are the result of pressures and charge interactions. The highest level slots are the innermost layer, relative to whatever geometry magic uses. They are pressed into each other, gathering force exponentially with each charge level reached. In this case, a charge level is why casters level up. They hit a new charge level on their magic. Different maximum spell slots of particular levels is from different methods of sorting the magic, different capacities and diverting slots to non-spell abilities, like being good at fighting without really training.

As for the two possible sources, Clerics and Sorcerers, that's the difference between creationist and evolutionist worlds. A created world has Vancian magic created as a shortcut to allow Clerics to gain total power faster than the spell-point-using heathens, with the meta-stability of needing considerable power to turn spell slots into the more stable points being an intentionally made "copyright" method. Of course, Wizards replicated it and Sorcerers inherited the foundation from dragons or fae or whatever, while Druids drew a foundation from SLAs of magical beasts and fae. And the gods dare not screw with the metaphysics after they got attached to it...

For the evolved world, it's a path of least resistance thing. Slots are more efficient in-universe than points and are nearly as stable, so life evolved to make the conversion early on. That's why you see SLAs scattered so far around the tree of life in them. Sorcerers and other inherent casters don't have the SLA "enzymes," so they have to guide the magic manually. The low concentration of SLAs is due to the massively complex structures involved. Many species have their magic in the old, incompatible points system with leftover foundations of unbelievably ancient SLAs that fell out of use or broke from mutation making the aqusition of Vancian casting possible. The Gods took it from Sorcerers and gave a more controllable version to Clerics, Druids drew it from animal casters and never stopped passing it around, Wizards got it by studying Sorcerers and so on.

Metamagic is less altering a spell and more casting another spell with the sole purpose of altering a spell. That's why you get linear slot level increases with metamagic; it's running on the linear growth of magic rather than the exponential growth of work. The exponential growth of work also explains Arcane Fusion, by letting it be that you shape the same quantity of magic with more force behind it.

As for prepared spells, that's a matter of direct casting being unbelievably difficult and stressful if you lack Sorcerer's inherent casting. You prepare most of the spell in the slot itself, thanks to the slot being an actual thing that can be affected, so that you can finish it later. The importance of Gods and spell books in this is that they give you a pattern to help imprint it into the slot, with Clerics getting it from a side thought of some celestial beurocracy that they have to finish up themself. Divine spontaneous casters are various mixes of priority prayer persons who get patterns on demand and Clerics with Sorcerer traits of some kind.

Semi-prepared casters, namely Arcanists, take their slot imprints to make more slot imprints, and the imprints stay after casting. Then, they have time and capacity left over to make their Exploits to warp the natural form of magic even more.

Spell points settle into making physically impossible things (Ex), Psionics, Incarnum and so on, the differences in focusing creating different supernatural forces that each react to Vancian slots differently, much like how damn near anything can be made out of carbon(recently, magnets were added to the list), or how nuclear fusion can create every chemical in existence given enough complicated nonsense.

Cluedrew
2017-02-07, 08:48 AM
Well... I think this explanation solves one of the issues solves one of the issues with Vancian magic. Which is: why can't you not memorize 2 less 1st level spells and memorize an extra 2nd level spell. Because the size of the 2nd level spell shell (here: collection of orbits) doesn't change no matter how full the shells below it are.

I think (if I can remember the rules correctly, not much experience with 5th) this also could be expanded to explain casting from higher spell slots in 5e. That is spells can be designed so that if the have excess energy beyond their minimum (are used from a higher spell slot) they can usually get some extra effect out of that but rarely as much as a spell designed from the ground up to use that much energy.

One question I am curious if this answers (hope I didn't miss it): How come all 1st level spells are easier to prepare than 2nd level spells. The complexity and the energy it uses should be independent, or at least not lockstep, but under this system wouldn't they still be? Or all spells easy enough to prepare the only issue is the available orbits?

Morphic tide
2017-02-07, 09:40 AM
Well... I think this explanation solves one of the issues solves one of the issues with Vancian magic. Which is: why can't you not memorize 2 less 1st level spells and memorize an extra 2nd level spell. Because the size of the 2nd level spell shell (here: collection of orbits) doesn't change no matter how full the shells below it are.

I think (if I can remember the rules correctly, not much experience with 5th) this also could be expanded to explain casting from higher spell slots in 5e. That is spells can be designed so that if the have excess energy beyond their minimum (are used from a higher spell slot) they can usually get some extra effect out of that but rarely as much as a spell designed from the ground up to use that much energy.

One question I am curious if this answers (hope I didn't miss it): How come all 1st level spells are easier to prepare than 2nd level spells. The complexity and the energy it uses should be independent, or at least not lockstep, but under this system wouldn't they still be? Or all spells easy enough to prepare the only issue is the available orbits?

Thank's for reading the massive post of brain leakage! Also thanks for adding a tidbit for 5e spells, although that's actually more a linear progression than an exponential one, so it's more just being able to use the extra raw magic content of higher level slots rather than the all-important potential energy of the higher level slot.

As for your question, the end result of all the stuff that goes into being a real caster makes spells roughly equal in preparation complexity in terms of preparing the actual slots, but the actual complexity of spells is all over the damn place and normalized through the various shortcuts. Druids draw from SLA patterns in nature, which are actual spells in an isolated slot managed by the magical equivalent of biology to be outside the active caster arrangement, then adjust them to get their more versatile spells. Clerics, as previously mentioned, have a celestial bureaucracy or divine subconsious making and giving the spell pattern, with the spontaneous ones being either fast-lane approval or made into a literal tool of divine intervention. Or are part Sorcerer, internally. Wizards have their spell book, which, on top of descriptive diagrams and such, also has most of the pattern finished so the Wizard only has to do the final step to get it in the slots.

As for spells known, I'd say those are permanently prepared spells, or spells that imprinted on something other than slots that can be used like a Wizard's spellbook(like the PF Witch class familiar). Essentially an SLA that's part of your caster slots, and able to be transferred to other slots for actual casting and staying imprinted on that slot, or it's a spell pattern drawn from something that isn't easily editable, like a Familiar.

daniel_ream
2017-02-07, 01:02 PM
All of us who have played D&D or Pathfinder, and many of us who have played other d20 games, know Vancian magic. Spell slots of limited number with concrete levels and specified uses of them.

I understand that some of us wonder why Vancian magic exists from a lore perspective.

Have you tried checking with Jack Vance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_Earth)?

Earthdawn answered this question with a fairly worked out metaphysics. Briefly, if you replace "memorization" with "creating the astral construct to hold the partially finished spell" and "casting" with "releasing the spell with the missing bits added at the last minute" you get something that requires almost no change to the mechanics and fits the world just fine.

Morphic tide
2017-02-07, 01:20 PM
Have you tried checking with Jack Vance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_Earth)?

Earthdawn answered this question with a fairly worked out metaphysics. Briefly, if you replace "memorization" with "creating the astral construct to help the partially finished spell" and "casting" with "releasing the spell with the missing bits added at the last minute" you get something that requires almost no change to the mechanics and fits the world just fine.

But that's not exactly compatible with spontaneous casters and Arcanist and Witch, which have fluffs directly contradictory to that. Nor does it give any explanation with how spell levels are exponential in power yet somehow linear in energy for so many non-spell purposes. This explanation covers most of the in-game stuff relating to Vancian magic as D&D uses it, including the ways that Sorcerers are special for not having to deal with all that BS and why all Wizards need a spellbook or similar written storage to prepare spells.

Segev
2017-02-07, 01:28 PM
In the version of things I use, the spontaneous casters have personal contracts with the various supernatural forces that provide magic. They use the same invocations as prepared casters, but they don't have to set up themselves as one-off participants in the contracts; they're owed in perpetuity. The slots come in because they have to qualify by some measure of power and skill. They have to understand their rights and privileges, and how to use what they're owed in the right ways. And they aren't owed an unlimited amount. Much like a winner of a "$7000/week prize" from Publisher's Clearinghouse, they get it forever, but only in finite amounts before they're owed nothing more that day. Their contracted servitors, their reserves of power, etc. are exhausted and relieved of their duties after enough work.

PhoenixPhyre
2017-02-07, 01:32 PM
As I started reading this post, I was wondering--did I post this without realizing it? Then I remembered--I posted a thread with much the same thoughts over in the 5e section a bit ago: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496711-Quantum-Spell-casting-(Analogy-to-explain-Vancian-magic)

Turns out great minds think alike :smallcool:

I agree. I specialized toward the 5e system (where everyone's a spontaneous caster but choose their spells differently--some have a permanent list which they modify every level, others pick each day from a bigger list) but I think the same basic idea of thinking about spell slots in an electron-orbital model works well for 3.X and earlier. It's definitely not the default fluff, because there are things nerdier than TTRPGs, after all.

Morphic tide
2017-02-07, 02:15 PM
As I started reading this post, I was wondering--did I post this without realizing it? Then I remembered--I posted a thread with much the same thoughts over in the 5e section a bit ago: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496711-Quantum-Spell-casting-(Analogy-to-explain-Vancian-magic)

Turns out great minds think alike :smallcool:

I agree. I specialized toward the 5e system (where everyone's a spontaneous caster but choose their spells differently--some have a permanent list which they modify every level, others pick each day from a bigger list) but I think the same basic idea of thinking about spell slots in an electron-orbital model works well for 3.X and earlier. It's definitely not the default fluff, because there are things nerdier than TTRPGs, after all.

Well, I was going for a general Vancian magic explanation that can be applied as the metaphysics of almost any D&D setting.

Some important differences are that in my conceptualization, the pure magic content of slots increases linearly, but the available work scales exponentially and refreshing only specific slots is immensely complicated, and that the highest level slots are your first slots, compressed and expanded into ridiculously energy dense forms.

I very much came up with this idea based on all the things I know of Vancian magic systems. All the scaling effects I know of, all the abilities that key off of spell level, they all scale linearly with spell level. Which makes no sense with an exponential magic content, but a bunch of forces can make linear concentrations of something have exponential potential energy.

Of all the things I know of in Vancian systems, only one doesn't fit this model: The Split Slot... thing. It breaks a slot down into two slots of the next level lower. But, we have a solution in a couple of things: Echoing Spell from Pathfinder, which allows you to cast a spell twice with the fluff of not releasing the full power of the spell, and Arcane Fusion, which lets you cast two spells simultaneously out of one slot. So Split Slot is basically permanent metamagic marking.

And issues regarding spell slots breaking entropy within themselves are invalid because almost all settings involving Vancian magic include explicitly infinite energy reactions and spell slots break entropy outside themselves all the time. I mean, if you really need a stretch for not violating thermodynamics, most Vancian setting have several planes of infinite scale with usable energy in them, or things that produce energy for no cost like souls.

Of course, the most fun thing about spell slots as coherent things that have an in-universe existence is being able to go to them magically and effect them directly, possibly enhancing your spell slots to have magic item effects. What the sweet hell that would do, I have no clue, but it's a silly thing that can be done with the idea of spell slots as semi-physical things. Now I wonder what a spell slot with ability score enhancements would do... Apply buff to target of spell?

daniel_ream
2017-02-07, 06:35 PM
But that's not exactly compatible with spontaneous casters and Arcanist and Witch, which have fluffs directly contradictory to that. Nor does it give any explanation with how spell levels are exponential in power yet somehow linear in energy for so many non-spell purposes.

That's because those things aren't Vancian magic. They're tack-ons to the original magic system to appease people who don't like Vancian magic.

Your problem is that you're using the phrase "Vancian magic" when what you really mean is "3.x/PF magic". You're not going to find a coherent fluffsplanation for all of 3.x/PF magic because much of it is self-contradictory, being the result of attempts to shoehorn very different concepts of magic into one rule system without changing the underlying mechanics.

Phoenixguard09
2017-02-08, 09:42 AM
You're not going to find a coherent fluffsplanation for all of 3.x/PF magic because much of it is self-contradictory, being the result of attempts to shoehorn very different concepts of magic into one rule system without changing the underlying mechanics.

On the contrary, I think the OP, while quite verbose, does a pretty good job of explaining the various concepts and how they work.

OP, I enjoyed reading your work. I won't pretend that it wasn't perhaps beyond my comprehension at times, although that may be in part due to current fatigue. I am not generally a fan of Vancian magic, but if I were to use it, I do like this as an in-universe explanation.

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-08, 01:16 PM
I also thought of spells-as-valence-levels a while back, though I pretty much stopped at spell-levels-as-quanta. The Creationist vs. Evolutionist origin of magic is particularly interesting- I love the justification for ancient beings having SLAs which have disappeared or been mutated away.

Four questions:
How do epic spells fit into this framework? They have wildly varying power levels, but pull from the same pool of slots.
How do metamagic reducers function?
Why the relation between caster level and spell slots? What is caster level, actually?
Why are different spells available at different levels for different spell lists (somewhat related to last question)?

Morphic tide
2017-02-08, 01:55 PM
I also thought of spells-as-valence-levels a while back, though I pretty much stopped at spell-levels-as-quanta. The Creationist vs. Evolutionist origin of magic is particularly interesting- I love the justification for ancient beings having SLAs which have disappeared or been mutated away.
Well, the appearance of SLAs in creatures that are three or four taxonomic categories apart requires either convergent evolution on a scale of dubious plausibility or leftovers from a common ancestor that had them. And given that there are

Four questions:
How do epic spells fit into this framework? They have wildly varying power levels, but pull from the same pool of slots.
How do metamagic reducers function?
Why the relation between caster level and spell slots? What is caster level, actually?
Why are different spells available at different levels for different spell lists (somewhat related to last question)?[/QUOTE]

1. Well, the things are keyed off of understanding your power source, as you get the slots from Knowledge ranks, so they are likely an artificially created 10th level slot with a bunch of weirdness in the "shell" that normally has spells prepared on it that allows for metamagic, but then it's dialed up several orders of magnitude to make a slot that is almost nothing but metamagic functions beyond what ordinary slots can do.

2. Efficiency boosts or channeling energy from outside sources, or a mix of the two. After all, slots are just one arrangement of magic, others can be harnessed for energy and it's far from impossible to make a spell more compatible with metamagic.

3. Caster level is either the "spare" magic content of the setup slots are held in seeping out during casting or getting more from the same amount of magic directly. Or it can be drawing extra magic during casting from a non-slot source.

4. Again, efficiency, mainly in the form of the "flavor" of magic/slot or the way it's forced into existence from the actual quanta of magic making it easier to do particular spells. Or a result of the preparation method, like the "hotline to God" spontaneous Divine casters being different from the rigid extraplanar bureaucracy provided Clerics.

Jay R
2017-02-08, 03:45 PM
Your system certainly works. But any explanation you're comfortable with also works.

I consider memorizing spells to be the arcane equivalent of loading a gun. Once you've loaded it, you can only shoot what's loaded, and once you shoot it, that cartridge is empty until you can load it again.