Recent favored soul: Pros/Cons?

[The Shadowdove]

Hey forum-lurkers,

Looking to see what you all think of the favored soul specifically.

The unearthed arcana changed a good bit of things on it.

Looks like more of a pure caster than melee oriented caster now.

Which makes me wonder which niche it fits into and what kind of role it might fill in a party.

Perhaps a healer with more blasting potential?

Let's see what you've noticed or come up with!

Thanks in advance,

Dove

[Deleted]

Hey forum-lurkers,

Looking to see what you all think of the favored soul specifically.

The unearthed arcana changed a good bit of things on it.

Looks like more of a pure caster than melee oriented caster now.

Which makes me wonder which niche it fits into and what kind of role it might fill in a party.

Perhaps a healer with more blasting potential?

Let's see what you've noticed or come up with!

Thanks in advance,

Dove

Best one they put out in 5e.

[LudicSavant]

PROS:
1) IP proofing, particularly for Sorcadins. That extra 2d4 stacks with Bless and Aura of Protection to make it even more unlikely you'll ever fail a save. It also allows you to make your damage more consistent, ensuring that that gamechanging smite or spell attack hits.
2) Gets the same hp bonus as the Draconic Sorcerer, while losing out on the higher AC base... a non-issue for Sorcadins.
3) Has a few notable new spell choices such as Animate Dead, Bless, Guidance, Spiritual Weapon, Healing Word, Spirit Guardians, and Death Ward, some of which have useful metamagic interactions. Take note of buffs that you can share to your Find Steed (if a Sorcadin).
4) Blessed Countenance + Guidance on Charisma checks, making you the new Diplomancer. Can combine with Jack of All Trades, Lucky, advantage-granting spells, and the like to have a character who rarely fails a Persuasion, Deception, or Intimidate roll.
5) Skills in general. Access to Guidance means that you're adding +1d4 to just about any out-of-combat check.

CONS:
1) You don't have a lot of spell choices. Seriously, 15 spells known at level 20 if you're straight-classed. You get an average of 0.75 spells known per level, which can get pretty depressing, especially at higher levels when you realize you only have one spell choice for some of your spell levels. This means that you're pretty limited in terms of making flavorful choices from the Cleric list, since you've already used up all of your choices getting the standbys you need to keep up.
2) Can't change up your spell list from day to day. Can't cast rituals. All the usual Sorcerer things. This also means that you don't feel as good about getting, say, Planar Binding on your list as you otherwise would.

Edit: Missed a little stacking rule hidden away on pg173 of the PHB. Corrected.

[skaddix]

Nerfed. From the Old Version.

Favored Soul: Pure*But What About Pure Evil. Got nerfed too hard to me. Give them back at least armor class and flying. They don't need the bonus attack. I guess. I also like them being locked into a declared Cleric Domain. Instead of free to take whatever whenever. I assume that is why its balanced with such nerfs. Free to pick any spell u want opens some abuse.

Still need more spell slots.

[Alatar]

An arcane caster with metamagics and cleric spells that key on Charisma is pretty sweet.

Distant cleric spells. The unsung metamagic option. Cure Wounds and Inflict Wounds at 30 feet.

Twinned cleric spells. Twinned Healing Word. Twinned Harm or Heal.

The dearth of spells known is beside the point. If you want a big book of arcane spells, there is a really good class for that.

[Arkhios]

I wonder if I'm reading this right... Can the new Favored Soul choose all of his or her spells from the cleric list, right from the first level, or is it restricted to retraining old spells as you gain further levels

[Byke]

As someone already said the made the new FS the party face. IMO they gutted it to hard.

[MrStabby]

Well on the Pro side, it is now sufficiently well balances (at first glance) that some tables might allow it to be played.

I want to mention sacred flame. This is a good cantrip to have in the back pocket - it won't get used that much but sometimes it is great and it fills a bit of a niche for sorcerers. Radiant damage has a lot of bonuses vs some times of undead. Radiant is often not resisted (vs say firebolt). It isn't an attack roll so it ignores effects that give you disadvantage or other penalties to attack rolls (sunlight sensitivity, restrained, poisoned, target prone etc.). It is a minor addition but a nice tool for the toolbox.

The cleric spell list also opens up a whole bunch of spells that are so good you want to spam them. Bless for example. If you have bless it kind of outcompetes whatever else you might want to use low level spell slots for. This frees up spells known for other levels letting you renforce your sorcerer spells

[Deleted]

Well on the Pro side, it is now sufficiently well balances (at first glance) that some tables might allow it to be played.

I want to mention sacred flame. This is a good cantrip to have in the back pocket - it won't get used that much but sometimes it is great and it fills a bit of a niche for sorcerers. Radiant damage has a lot of bonuses vs some times of undead. Radiant is often not resisted (vs say firebolt). It isn't an attack roll so it ignores effects that give you disadvantage or other penalties to attack rolls (sunlight sensitivity, restrained, poisoned, target prone etc.). It is a minor addition but a nice tool for the toolbox.

The cleric spell list also opens up a whole bunch of spells that are so good you want to spam them. Bless for example. If you have bless it kind of outcompetes whatever else you might want to use low level spell slots for. This frees up spells known for other levels letting you renforce your sorcerer spells

Having a way to ignore cover for your attacks can be down right amazing if your DM keeps track of that sort of thing.

[MrStabby]

Having a way to ignore cover for your attacks can be down right amazing if your DM keeps track of that sort of thing.

Yeah, we had an encounter where enemies kept teleporting from cover to cover and the party knowledge cleric was top damage dealer. Ranged attack, ignoring cover, ignoring armour, ignoring bane and ignoring their poisoned effects left that guy able to function unimpeded whilst the rest of us couldn't hit a barn door with our attacks or couldn't get close enough to the enemies to use melee attacks.

[Deleted]

Yeah, we had an encounter where enemies kept teleporting from cover to cover and the party knowledge cleric was top damage dealer. Ranged attack, ignoring cover, ignoring armour, ignoring bane and ignoring their poisoned effects left that guy able to function unimpeded whilst the rest of us couldn't hit a barn door with our attacks or couldn't get close enough to the enemies to use melee attacks.

Ah, the knowledge cleric, one of the scarier clerics and yet I feel it gets very little love.

[Sception]

It's a completely different subclass from what it used to be. It once was a 'become an angel' themed subclass with wings, armor, and weapon use, thematically tied to a particular deity's portfolio via domain spell access. Not it's a divine sorcerer with cleric spell list access and extremely effective party face with massive bonuses to cha skills.

As a multiclass option for bard or paladin it looks pretty interesting, and as a single classed build on its own there's a lot of neat stuff that can be done with cleric spells and metamagic, as already mentioned.

Honestly, it would be best to think of it as entirely unrelated to the previous favored soul. Heck, you could re-name one or the other and allow both in your games - though if you're doing that you should probably house rule the old one so that it has to spend spells known selections on domain spells it wants access to, rather than getting them for free. In exchange, give it the bonus +1 HP per sorcerer level that some of these new sorcerer blood lines get.

[Bugado25]

Pros:
More balanced than the last one.
Excellent party face. Fits the needs for a charismatic priest.

Cons:
Completely different from the last one. Without any melee or armor it does not looks like a Favored Soul.
Favored by the Gods is not really flavorful. I would like this changed to something that adds to the theme other than a purely mechanical boost.
Divine Purity: Situational to the point it almost becomes a ribbon. I would like it changed or that something more applicable were added to that level.
No wings

But the main thing I don’t like is this class is that it is named Favored Soul. It has interesting mechanics and fits the need some people have of a religious charismatic leader, but it is not a Favored Soul. I would like this to become its own subclass while they create another to be the melee Favored Soul. The way I would turn this one in something more alike the previous incarnation is bellow on the spoiler.

1st Level
Divine Magic: Limit the Melee Favored Soul only to Clerics spell list to make it more distinct from the caster one.
Supernatural Resilience: Necessary on a melee class. Not so much on the caster one.
Favored by the Gods: Removed
Added “Bonus Proficiencies”: Gains proficiency on Light and Medium Armor, no shields. Just Medium Armor already gives you High enough armor class, shield makes it too high. Proficiency in simple and martial weapons.

6th level
Blessed Countenance Removed.
Added Extra Attack

14th Level
Divine Purity Removed
Added Wings

18th Level
Uneartly Recovery as it is.


And how I would do the caster version:

1st Level
Divine Magic as it is
Supernatural Resilience removed
Favored by the gods removed
Added: Divine Domain: Choose one cleric domain. You add the domain spells to your spell list (not spells known) and gain that domain 1st level benefits. However, you do not gain any weapon or armor proficiencies from your domain. Any mention to Wisdom modifier is replaced by your Charisma Modifier. In addition to that, you learn that domain’s 2nd level Channel Divinity, which you can use once per long rest. (It has the problem of getting the Channel Divinity earlier than the cleric. But only on 1st vs 2nd level and the clerics one recharge on short rest.

6th Level
Blessed Countenance as it is
You can now use your Channel Divinity option twice per long rest

14th Level
Divine Purity as it is
You gain your chosen domain 6th level feature.
You can now use your channel divinity thrice per long rest

18th Level
Unearthly Recovery as it is

[Specter]

Pros:
- Good face (far from best, though).
- Emergency panic button for a save you can't fail (2d4).
- Widest selection of spells available to anyone except Bards.
- Good HP.

Cons:
- Horrible versatility when it comes to spells (even with cleric spells added, since you're not taking a necessary sorcerer spell instead).
- Bad AC.
- No damage-increasing features, which shine on sorcerers.
- Weak level 6 and 14 abilities compared to other sorcerer

[Deleted]

Pros:
- Good face (far from best, though).
- Emergency panic button for a save you can't fail (2d4).
- Widest selection of spells available to anyone except Bards.
- Good HP.

Cons:
- Horrible versatility when it comes to spells (even with cleric spells added, since you're not taking a necessary sorcerer spell instead).
- Bad AC.
- No damage-increasing features, which shine on sorcerers.
- Weak level 6 and 14 abilities compared to other sorcerer

These two issues are because of the base Sorcerer and not because of the Subclass. I feel that you shouldn't fault a subclass because the base has issues.

Sorcerers have versatility with the spells that have, subtle spell, quicken, and heighten spell are all nice ways to show versatility even with few spell known. At least the Sorcerer isn't as bad as the fighter, with limited focus and no versatility of that focus.


Bad AC... Well... Mage Armor, just like what the wizard has to do. Sucks that you have to eat up a slot for it but it is what it is. The Sorcerer should have gotten an AC boost through its base class to distinguish itself from the Wizard. Or at the very fricken least light armor.

[Naanomi]

Looks much better to me. No extra spells for free (one of their stated design guidelines for sorcerers), and no 'lazy copy of dragon subclass capstone' wings. The gish aspects I can take or leave mechanically, though not having them does open up some 'blessed commoner' imagery that the old 'Joan of Arc' model couldn't represent visually well

[Specter]

These two issues are because of the base Sorcerer and not because of the Subclass. I feel that you shouldn't fault a subclass because the base has issues.

Sorcerers have versatility with the spells that have, subtle spell, quicken, and heighten spell are all nice ways to show versatility even with few spell known. At least the Sorcerer isn't as bad as the fighter, with limited focus and no versatility of that focus.


Bad AC... Well... Mage Armor, just like what the wizard has to do. Sucks that you have to eat up a slot for it but it is what it is. The Sorcerer should have gotten an AC boost through its base class to distinguish itself from the Wizard. Or at the very fricken least light armor.

Not so much. If one of the features of the subclass lets you pick spells from other classes when you really can't spare your own class spells, you're in a tight spot.

And both Draconic and the original FS let you have a good AC without expending anything for it.

[Deleted]

Not so much. If one of the features of the subclass lets you pick spells from other classes when you really can't spare your own class spells, you're in a tight spot.

And both Draconic and the original FS let you have a good AC without expending anything for it.

To be fair, the original FS was junk. There was a lot of problems with it. To compare the new one with the old one... Is judging the new one for not being broken.

I don't think AC is a huge deal for someone that isn't meant to wade through the front lines. Pick up a healing spell and stay the hell away from attack rolls :p

[Byke]

To be fair, the original FS was junk. There was a lot of problems with it. To compare the new one with the old one... Is judging the new one for not being broken.

I don't think AC is a huge deal for someone that isn't meant to wade through the front lines. Pick up a healing spell and stay the hell away from attack rolls :p

Your opinion is noted...Mine is that the old FS made sorcerer playable and almost on par with a wizard.

Now If you like to debate facts instead of opinion I'm game.

[Deleted]

Your opinion is noted...Mine is that the old FS made sorcerer playable and almost on par with a wizard.

Now If you like to debate facts instead of opinion I'm game.

Fact: It broke their own design rules.

Seems like junk to me when it doesn't even follow their own design rules. It was junk, salvageable, but still junk.

[Byke]

Fact: It broke their own design rules.

Seems like junk to me when it doesn't even follow their own design rules. It was junk, salvageable, but still junk.

Are you referring to these guidelines from dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/modifying-classes

SORCERER
Sorcerers have the full spellcasting progression; any changes to the Spellcasting feature will have a big impact on the class.

Like bards, sorcerers are have a limitation on the number of spells they can choose from, which is a major restriction on the class.

The sorcerer does not get many metamagic choices. When you create a new metamagic option, be sure that it is useful enough that a sorcerer could justify using one of his or her precious choices on it.

Sorcery points and Flexible Casting were intentionally designed so that a sorcerer who does nothing but convert spell slots to sorcery points in order to cast higher-level spells does so at the cost of overall output. Be cautious when altering this balance.

Fact: Adding 9 more domain spell didn't break any design rules the class still has a very limited spell list

[MrStabby]

Fact: Adding 9 more domain spell didn't break any design rules the class still has a very limited spell list

I think you spelled "opinion" wrong.

[Deleted]

Are you referring to these guidelines from dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/modifying-classes

SORCERER
Sorcerers have the full spellcasting progression; any changes to the Spellcasting feature will have a big impact on the class.

Like bards, sorcerers are have a limitation on the number of spells they can choose from, which is a major restriction on the class.

The sorcerer does not get many metamagic choices. When you create a new metamagic option, be sure that it is useful enough that a sorcerer could justify using one of his or her precious choices on it.

Sorcery points and Flexible Casting were intentionally designed so that a sorcerer who does nothing but convert spell slots to sorcery points in order to cast higher-level spells does so at the cost of overall output. Be cautious when altering this balance.

Fact: Adding 9 more domain spell didn't break any design rules the class still has a very limited spell list



CHOSEN OF THE GODS
"At 1st level, you choose one of the cleric class’s divine domains. You add that domain’s spells for 1st-level clerics to your known spells. These spells do not count against the number of spells you can know, and they are considered to be sorcerer spells for you. When you reach 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th levels in the sorcerer class, you likewise learn your domain’s spells that become available at those levels."

BONUS PROFICIENCIES
At 1st level, you gain proficiency in light armor, medium armor, shields, and simple weapons.

EXTRA ATTACK
Starting at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

Your idea of facts is quite entertaining as these three features break the first two rules.

The Sorcerer is a full spellcasting class. No full spellcaster gains access to Extra Attack. You are adding Extra Attack to a full spell progression class.

The Sorcerer is a full spellcasting arcane class. This is quite different from the cleric, whose spell choices are rather limited. This is quite different from druid, who gets some spells like a full arcane spellcaster but not quite there.

Chosen of the gods is breaking the second rule. Sorcerers are about limitation of the spells they can choose from and they just added spells to choose from...

Fact: They broke their own rules and the FS is junk.

[Mikey P]

Your idea of facts is quite entertaining as these three features break the first two rules.

The Sorcerer is a full spellcasting class. No full spellcaster gains access to Extra Attack. You are adding Extra Attack to a full spell progression class.

The Sorcerer is a full spellcasting arcane class. This is quite different from the cleric, whose spell choices are rather limited. This is quite different from druid, who gets some spells like a full arcane spellcaster but not quite there.

Chosen of the gods is breaking the second rule. Sorcerers are about limitation of the spells they can choose from and they just added spells to choose from...

Fact: They broke their own rules and the FS is junk.

While they did give access to more spells, it's not accurate to say no full caster gets extra attack. Valor Bards, Blade Warlocks and Blade Singing Wizards all share that distinction.

[Bugado25]

The Sorcerer is a full spellcasting class. No full spellcaster gains access to Extra Attack. You are adding Extra Attack to a full spell progression class.

Both Valor Bards and Bladesinger get extra attack. Bladelocks also do (although Warlock status as a full caster is controverse).

It was never a rule, written or unwritten, that full casters can't get extra attack.

[Naanomi]

Your idea of facts is quite entertaining as these three features break the first two rules.

The Sorcerer is a full spellcasting class. No full spellcaster gains access to Extra Attack. You are adding Extra Attack to a full spell progression class.

The Sorcerer is a full spellcasting arcane class. This is quite different from the cleric, whose spell choices are rather limited. This is quite different from druid, who gets some spells like a full arcane spellcaster but not quite there.

Chosen of the gods is breaking the second rule. Sorcerers are about limitation of the spells they can choose from and they just added spells to choose from...

Fact: They broke their own rules and the FS is junk.
Well, Bladesinger gets extra attack. But adding spells to the spell list made it by far the 'best subclass', which maybe if they redid the whole system they should have done something similar for every subclass... but as is it shouldn't be part of any of them.

[DivisibleByZero]

While they did give access to more spells, it's not accurate to say no full caster gets extra attack. Valor Bards, Blade Warlocks and Blade Singing Wizards all share that distinction.

Exactly. Clerics and Druids are the only full spellcasters that don't didn't have an option for Extra Attack if you included FS's previous incarnation. And the options for Wizard/Warlock/Bard are all official. Two of those are actually in the PHB.
So let's not all pretend that adding Extra Attack onto a full caster is some heinous thing that should never be done.


(although Warlock status as a full caster is controverse)

No, Warlock's status as a full caster in not controversial.
If you do the math, they are a full caster who uses the spell point system, but can only create slots of their highest level available.
Math says that it isn't controversial. Math says they are a full caster.

[Specter]

Gish potential and extra known spells are very good, but they don't break anything. Other sorcerers won't have these, but they'll have other good stuff. I don't see the point of this whole thing.

[LudicSavant]

Fact: It broke their own design rules.

That's not much of a case, whether it's true or not. WotC's design guidelines haven't always turned out to be the greatest of ideas, historically speaking.

The thing is, a few extra spells known generally isn't going to break your game. It would generally help prevent your Sorcerer player from getting bored and frustrated that they get less than 2 spell choices per spell slot level, on top of having less spells to cast per day and being barred from rituals and preparation.

Likewise, granting a full caster Extra Attack is hardly unprecedented. Bladesingers already get that, on top of higher AC and more spell access than a Favored Soul has.

However, getting +17+1d4+1d6+Advantage to Charisma checks might either trivialize social encounters, or cause the DM to trivialize the effects of social skill rolls. At the very least it raises the bar for party faces, and really designates the Favored Soul in that role. On top of that, it adds better IP proofing for Sorcadins than the Draconic Sorcerer, as well as grabbing key spell picks off the Cleric list. It's both potent and uninteresting.

But hey, at least it doesn't break some dogmatic design guideline, right? :smallwink:

[Byke]

I think you spelled "opinion" wrong.

There are approximately 250 cleric and Sorcerer spells? (Sorry at work and not in front of my PHB.) please feel free to give me the exact number and I will do the math.

***Rough math****15 Sorc + 9 Domain = 24 so a FS could know 9.6% of all of the possible spells. not sure how you can say that their spell list is not limited.

[Bugado25]

No, Warlock's status as a full caster in not controversial.
If you do the math, they are a full caster who uses the spell point system, but can only create slots of their highest level available.
Math says that it isn't controversial. Math says they are a full caster.

I consider then full casters. But i have seen many times in this forum discussions about the warlock being or not a full caster. That's why I say it is controverse

[DivisibleByZero]

I consider then full casters. But i have seen many times in this forum discussions about the warlock being or not a full caster. That's why I say it is controverse

Correct them and show them the math. Because they are wrong. And math proves it.
Just because some people argue that the world is flat doesn't make it controversial.

[Byke]

Your idea of facts is quite entertaining as these three features break the first two rules.

The Sorcerer is a full spellcasting class. No full spellcaster gains access to Extra Attack. You are adding Extra Attack to a full spell progression class.

The Sorcerer is a full spellcasting arcane class. This is quite different from the cleric, whose spell choices are rather limited. This is quite different from druid, who gets some spells like a full arcane spellcaster but not quite there.

Chosen of the gods is breaking the second rule. Sorcerers are about limitation of the spells they can choose from and they just added spells to choose from...

Fact: They broke their own rules and the FS is junk.

"Deleted" you seem to be taking this personally...please don't...I'm just giving my view. Your opinion is valid but they aren't sacrosanct.

The guidelines provided were recommendations/suggestions for DMs who were looking to modify or add to the sorcerer class. They aren't the "rule" used to create 5e and in my opinion they gave an excellent example of what a Favored soul should be.

[MrStabby]

I consider then full casters. But i have seen many times in this forum discussions about the warlock being or not a full caster. That's why I say it is controverse

The controversy isn't really about whether the warlock is a full caster, it is more about what a full caster is. There is disagreement about what it should mean.

There is no real "correct" definition - none is used in the PHB, unless you count the presence of the spellcasting feature (which then by definition would put the warlock outside).

There are a lot of ways to measure it - I use the cleric as a basis for comparison here:

1) you can cast as many levelled spells per day as a cleric of the same level
2) Your highest level spell you can cast per day is the same as a cleric
3) You have access to as deep a pool of spells to chose from as the cleric
4) You can cast as many spells in an encounter as a cleric
and probably many more.

So by these definitions you would get:

No (for most levels)
Yes
No
No

I am not saying these are the right definitions, but to demonstrate that the controversy isn't about disagreement of fact, but about what the features of a "full caster" are. As a rule of thumb don't trust anyone who peddles a single definition of what a full caster is.

A useful question might be - would the Warlock be more powerful if they had more conventional casting rather than pact magic? Here, I am pretty sure the general answer would be that they would. The flexibility of having your power among a variety of spell levels, being able to use more power at difficult times of the day rather than having it rationed out in small little parcels between long rests, being able to upcast spells... they are all big boosts.

This isn't to say a Warlock is underpowered - just that more of it's power is in features other than its spell slots. Is it enough to make it not count as a "full caster"- that is to personal taste and what you value in a caster. I am not foolish enough to pretend there is an objective answer to this.

[Deleted]

"Deleted" you seem to be taking this personally...please don't...I'm just giving my view. Your opinion is valid but they aren't sacrosanct.

The guidelines provided were recommendations/suggestions for DMs who were looking to modify or add to the sorcerer class. They aren't the "rule" used to create 5e and in my opinion they gave an excellent example of what a Favored soul should be.

Funny, never took anything personally.

Being told I'm talking opinions, by someone talking opinions, doesn't really bug me. It's slightly entertaining to watch people try to troll however. I may have gotten caught up in it, but I never take anything on the internet personally.

[DivisibleByZero]

Is it enough to make it not count as a "full caster"- that is to personal taste and what you value in a caster. I am not foolish enough to pretend there is an objective answer to this.

I am, and it isn't foolish, nor is it subjective. It absolutely is objective, because math is objective.

Do the math.
Look at the spell points variant rule. See how many spell points a traditional full caster gets. Warlocks refresh their spell slots on a short rest. The PHB states that there should be 2 or 3 short rests per adventuring day. Take that to average 2.5. Add one for the starting slots prior to that rest to get 3.5. Look at what spell level the Warlock has available. Take that spell level and refer to the spell point variant to see how many spell points a slot of that level is worth. Take that number and multiply by the total number of slots that the Warlock has per short rest. Take that number and multiply by the aforementioned 3.5 to see how many spell points they have available on the average adventuring day. Now add the points for one each of spell levels 6 through 9 for Mystic Arcanum. Compare that total to how many spell points a wizard using that variant would have.
Guess what you'll find?
They're almost identical numbers, all the way from level 2 through level 20. They're actually higher than the table shows for other casters in many cases. Mathematically speaking, the Warlock is the most powerful of the full casters.

It is not subjective. A Warlock is a full caster who uses the spell point variant, but can only create their highest level slots. This formula is also the reason why they don't get a third slot until level 11. Because getting it before then would break the math.

[jaappleton]

Because it sticks with the Sorcerer spells know limits, it's not OP.

I tried building one for level three. I can't.

Spells Known at lv3 - 4

Bless
Shield
Mage Armor (They have no armor proficiency)
???

Go ahead and pick one:

Hold Person, Shatter, Misty Step, Scorching Ray, Guiding Bolt, etc



It's the toughest decision I've had to make in D&D. Remember, it's a Sorcerer. You can't just swap it out every rest like a Cleric can. So once you pick it, that's it, really.

That said...? At higher levels, I think it's the best spellcaster in the game. That spell selection is ridiculously good, with Metamagic shenanigans. Plus 2d4 once per rest on an attack roll or save? Damn spiffy.

If using rolled stats, Dwarf is the best race for it by far because of the medium armor proficiency.

[MrStabby]

I am, and it isn't foolish, nor is it subjective. It absolutely is objective, because math is objective.

Do the math.
Look at the spell points variant rule. See how many spell points a traditional full caster gets. Warlocks refresh their spell slots on a short rest. The PHB states that there should be 2 or 3 short rests per adventuring day. Take that to average 2.5. Add one for the starting slots prior to that rest to get 3.5. Look at what spell level the Warlock has available. Take that spell level and refer to the spell point variant to see how many spell points a slot of that level is worth. Take that number and multiply by the total number of slots that the Warlock has per short rest. Take that number and multiply by the aforementioned 3.5 to see how many spell points they have available on the average adventuring day. Now add the points for one each of spell levels 6 through n9 for Mystic Arcanum. Compare that total to how many spell points a wizard using that variant would have.
Guess what you'll find?
They're almost identical numbers, all the way from level 2 through level 20.

It is not subjective. A Warlock is a full caster who uses the spell point variant, but can only create their highest level slots. This formula is also the reason why they don't get a third slot until level 11. Because getting it before then would break the math.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions. For example that there is no benefit at all to flexibility. You just pretend that being able to chose what spells of what level you get has no benefit at all. You also seem to be assuming that you have a very generous DM who makes all encounters of equal difficulty and spreads them out evenly through the day so there would be no benefit to being able to save resources between encounters.

[DivisibleByZero]

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions. For example that there is no benefit at all to flexibility. You just pretend that being able to chose what spells of what level you get has no benefit at all. You also seem to be assuming that you have a very generous DM who makes all encounters of equal difficulty and spreads them out evenly through the day so there would be no benefit to being able to save resources between encounters.

I assume nothing.
I make zero assumptions about personal preferences or wonky DMs.
The math is the math.
A Warlock is a full caster, proven by mathematics.

[MrStabby]

I assume nothing.
I make zero assumptions about personal preferences or wonky DMs.
The math is the math.
A Warlock is a full caster, proven by mathematics.

You just dont realise you do.

All you have proven is that you can get the answer you want by picking your assumptions. Just because you involve some calculations in there does not mean it is objective. My job is maths based - I wouldn't claim that it makes it objective, I have to base it on evidence.

You are a little overconfident.

[DivisibleByZero]

You just dont realise you do.

All you have proven is that you can get the answer you want by picking your assumptions. Just because you involve some calculations in there does not mean it is objective. My job is maths based - I wouldn't claim that it makes it objective, I have to base it on evidence.

You are a little overconfident.

I make zero assumptions. I use the guidelines set in the rulebooks. Those are not assumptions, those are following the patterns created by the game designers.
Zero assumptions.
If your job really is math based, then you know (or at least have the capacity to figure out) that my math is correct.
You'll notice the very first thing I told you was: "do the math"
So go ahead and do it.

[SharkForce]

looks much stronger than any of the published versions so far. i expect it will be nerfed.

and in my opinion, the cleric core of spells that are basically very reliable and flexible (you can get through almost any fight with just spirit guardians and spiritual weapon, which means you could if you wanted have 13 other spells by level 20 to do whatever you want with pretty much) means that the new favoured soul is not nearly as hard to pick spells for as the base sorcerer. yeah, there's lots of stuff that's nice to have... but you can cover your bases quite well with only a few spells.

[jaappleton]

looks much stronger than any of the published versions so far. i expect it will be nerfed.

and in my opinion, the cleric core of spells that are basically very reliable and flexible (you can get through almost any fight with just spirit guardians and spiritual weapon, which means you could if you wanted have 13 other spells by level 20 to do whatever you want with pretty much) means that the new favoured soul is not nearly as hard to pick spells for as the base sorcerer. yeah, there's lots of stuff that's nice to have... but you can cover your bases quite well with only a few spells.

Please read my earlier post and tell me what spells to pick.

[Bugado25]

looks much stronger than any of the published versions so far. i expect it will be nerfed.

and in my opinion, the cleric core of spells that are basically very reliable and flexible (you can get through almost any fight with just spirit guardians and spiritual weapon, which means you could if you wanted have 13 other spells by level 20 to do whatever you want with pretty much) means that the new favoured soul is not nearly as hard to pick spells for as the base sorcerer. yeah, there's lots of stuff that's nice to have... but you can cover your bases quite well with only a few spells.

Sorcerer's have an extremelly low number of spells known. It not even enough to cherry pick only from sorcerer's spell list without missing lots of stuff.

Before saying having access to both spell lists is OP, try making your spell progression from 1st to 20th level. It is hard.

And by the way, Spirit Guardians is a terrible spell for a Favored Soul. It is great on a cleric that can enjoy 18+ AC since 1st level, but you definitively don’t want to stay within 15 feet of your enemies with a Favored Soul.

[solidork]

Please read my earlier post and tell me what spells to pick.

Personally, I would really want to get Spiritual Weapon.

[Specter]

Yeah, as jappleton said the "pick any cleric spell" thing is not as good as it seems. In the first levels, most (if not all) of your spells will be spent just on getting adecent AC, so you'll be stuck with cantrips for actually doing anything.

At later levels, anything that's good is competing with other good stuff. Spiritual Weapon? No Suggestion for you. Spirit Guardians? No Fireball for you. Raise Dead? No Animate Objects for you then. Etc.

That's why I'd much rather play the original FS: You had to choose one domain and stick to it, but those spells were in conjunction with the ones you already had, not fighting with thrm.

[jaappleton]

The new FS needs some sort of armor proficiency, or some form of natural armor. For example:

Armor of Faith
Your AC equals 13 + Dex modifier

Same thing as Draconic Resilience, but you aren't getting bonus HP on top of it.

[Byke]

Funny, never took anything personally.

Being told I'm talking opinions, by someone talking opinions, doesn't really bug me. It's slightly entertaining to watch people try to troll however. I may have gotten caught up in it, but I never take anything on the internet personally.

Fair enough...so let's talk about Stone Sorcerer then they get 10 extra spells know and a melee reaction ability and extra melee force damage, is it junk, broken or OP?

[Kileonhardt]

PROS:
4) Blessed Countenance + Guidance on Charisma checks, making you the new Diplomancer. Can combine with Expertise, Jack of All Trades, Lucky, advantage-granting spells, and the like to have a character who never fails a Persuasion, Deception, or Intimidate roll.

Just going to point out that BC does not stack with Expertise. They're both multipliers and therefor only happen once. On the same note the verdict is still out on Jack of All Trades since it's realistically a .5x multiplier itself so it wouldn't work either, though really if you're being a face you have proficiency in your Cha checks anyway so even if it does work it's useless to multiclass for it.


Fair enough...so let's talk about Stone Sorcerer then they get 10 extra spells know and a melee reaction ability and extra melee force damage, is it junk, broken or OP?

People keep thinking it's extra spells known, it's just an extra spell list to choose from.

[KorvinStarmast]

Personally, I would really want to get Spiritual Weapon. I think Favored Soul is a great way to expand the horizons of the Sorcerer class. The link to divine magic and divine beings feels right.
Even though the Sorcerer can choose clerical spells, there is still the matter of limited spells known. Pick carefully, as noted above. For a first level Favored soul, I'd probably pick Sacred Flame, another elemental attack, and then ... what? Guidance and Illusion? Resistance and Illusion?

I think you'd need to really work out your character theme well in advance to fit the party, but the increase of choice, while nice, still isn't as neat as this character having the potential to be a superb party face once 6th level hits.

I can see some neat permutations on this: the head of the local thieves guild is, rather than a thief, a favored soul who has carefully built a network of loyal thieves and assassins ... and has connections with all of the nobles and merchants ...

[Mikey P]

Go ahead and pick one:
If you go Dwarf and have medium armor, you can fit Bless, Guiding Bolt and Spiritual Weapon and keep you action economy jam-packed for offense, and keep Shield for reaction needs.

Congrats, you're a cleric with meta magic... and you don't really need Quicken as a Meta magic option too early, as Spiritual Weapon is a great use of a bonus action.

[Kileonhardt]

The new FS needs some sort of armor proficiency, or some form of natural armor. For example:

Armor of Faith
Your AC equals 13 + Dex modifier

Same thing as Draconic Resilience, but you aren't getting bonus HP on top of it.

I'm surprisingly fine with them not getting a natural armor or a proficiency, especially since Stone has theirs. If anything maybe light armor proficiency would be fine but dipping Warlock 2 (like most sorcs end up doing anyway) for EB and free mage armor, or dipping Life Cleric 1 for medium armor, bless, and cure wounds for free also isn't bad.

[Byke]

Just going to point out that BC does not stack with Expertise. They're both multipliers and therefor only happen once. On the same note the verdict is still out on Jack of All Trades since it's realistically a .5x multiplier itself so it wouldn't work either, though really if you're being a face you have proficiency in your Cha checks anyway so even if it does work it's useless to multiclass for it.



People keep thinking it's extra spells known, it's just an extra spell list to choose from.


My bad then

[Pex]

PROS:

3) Has a few notable new spell choices such as Animate Dead, Bless, Guidance, Spiritual Weapon, Healing Word, Spirit Guardians, and Death Ward, some of which have useful metamagic interactions. Take note of buffs that you can share to your Find Steed (if a Sorcadin).



(Eyes light up)

OMG!

Twin Spiritual Weapon - No Concentration!
Twin Death Ward
Twin Guardian Spirit
Twin Healing Word
Twin Cure Wounds
Twin Sanctuary

Yeah, I know, it was technically possible already with a cleric/sorcerer multiclass, but I don't think in multiclassing terms when it comes to characters.

[Kileonhardt]

Hey forum-lurkers,

Looking to see what you all think of the favored soul specifically.

The unearthed arcana changed a good bit of things on it.

Looks like more of a pure caster than melee oriented caster now.

Which makes me wonder which niche it fits into and what kind of role it might fill in a party.

Perhaps a healer with more blasting potential?

Let's see what you've noticed or come up with!

Thanks in advance,

Dove

Well I've spent nearly a day trying to figure out my spell list as an 11th level FS so this is hard to answer. Obviously with Twinned and Cleric spells you're a better buffer than ever, but at the same time you already had spells that were good to twin so having more options really limits you.

I don't think FS fits the healer role well but you're more of a controller/blaster with Healing Word potential to save party members. Knowing and being able to twin stuff like Raise Dead and Greater Restoration is also nice.

All in all I'd say they're probably the supportiest support now thanks to being able to Twinned Cleric spells without being limited to a domain.


Twin Spiritual Weapon - No Concentration!

Would be cool but Spiritual Weapon doesn't target a creature and you'd never be able to use both effectively even if it did since they'd work off their own bonus actions.

[Pex]

Yeah, as jappleton said the "pick any cleric spell" thing is not as good as it seems. In the first levels, most (if not all) of your spells will be spent just on getting adecent AC, so you'll be stuck with cantrips for actually doing anything.

At later levels, anything that's good is competing with other good stuff. Spiritual Weapon? No Suggestion for you. Spirit Guardians? No Fireball for you. Raise Dead? No Animate Objects for you then. Etc.

That's why I'd much rather play the original FS: You had to choose one domain and stick to it, but those spells were in conjunction with the ones you already had, not fighting with thrm.

It's not about only pick the best. With this logic every Sorcerer should have the exact same spells of (insert list) because any deviation makes you subpar. It offers fun new tactics.



Would be cool but Spiritual Weapon doesn't target a creature and you'd never be able to use both effectively even if it did since they'd work off their own bonus actions.

Phooey. You're right about the target requirement. The spell creates a force effect; it doesn't directly target. Can't finagle that, but there is argument that if it was possible both spiritual weapons would be created and used by the same bonus action since it was one spell that created both. The analysis is moot, though.

[Specter]

Purple Dragon Knights: Can double their proficiency in Persuasion and still get another skill proficiency at level 7.
Community: Meh.

Rogues: Can double their proficiency in any 4 skills they have. At level 11 can never take less than 10 on any proficient skill. At level 20 can turn a miss into a natural 20.
Community: Good one!

Lore Bards: Can double their proficiency in any 4 skills they have. At level 14 can add their inspiradice to any skill check, adding +5 on average. At level 15 can learn Glibness, to never take less than 15 on the die on CHA skills.
Community: Nice!

Favored Souls: Can double their proficiency in CHA skills if they're proficient in them (one of which is irrelevant).
Community: OMG THIS IS NOW THE ULTIMATE PARTY FACE

Go figure...

[Kileonhardt]

Favored Souls: Can double their proficiency in CHA skills if they're proficient in them (one of which is irrelevant).
Community: OMG THIS IS NOW THE ULTIMATE PARTY FACE

Go figure...

Yeah. I mentioned early on in the UA post that all their level 6 ability does is put them on par with Bards early on as party face.

[LudicSavant]

Just going to point out that BC does not stack with Expertise. They're both multipliers and therefor only happen once. On the same note the verdict is still out on Jack of All Trades since it's realistically a .5x multiplier itself so it wouldn't work either, though really if you're being a face you have proficiency in your Cha checks anyway so even if it does work it's useless to multiclass for it.

Aha, didn't see that rule hidden on pg173. Corrected.

[Sception]

Yeah. I mentioned early on in the UA post that all their level 6 ability does is put them on par with Bards early on as party face.

They're cha primary, unlike rogues or fighters.



Bards are still better, sure.

[jaappleton]

I'm surprisingly fine with them not getting a natural armor or a proficiency, especially since Stone has theirs. If anything maybe light armor proficiency would be fine but dipping Warlock 2 (like most sorcs end up doing anyway) for EB and free mage armor, or dipping Life Cleric 1 for medium armor, bless, and cure wounds for free also isn't bad.

Not every table allows multiclassing. In fact, UA is written specifically without multiclassing in mind.

I can't think of any +Cha race that gets any form of armor proficiency on its own. Which sucks, because Volo's Aasimar Favored Soul just bleeds flavor. Unfortunately, without armor, it just bleeds. :smallbiggrin:

[LudicSavant]

Purple Dragon Knights: Can double their proficiency in Persuasion and still get another skill proficiency at level 7.
Community: Meh.

Rogues: Can double their proficiency in any 4 skills they have. At level 11 can never take less than 10 on any proficient skill. At level 20 can turn a miss into a natural 20.
Community: Good one!

Lore Bards: Can double their proficiency in any 4 skills they have. At level 14 can add their inspiradice to any skill check, adding +5 on average. At level 15 can learn Glibness, to never take less than 15 on the die on CHA skills.
Community: Nice!

Favored Souls: Can double their proficiency in CHA skills if they're proficient in them (one of which is irrelevant).
Community: OMG THIS IS NOW THE ULTIMATE PARTY FACE

Go figure...

They're definitely better at it than Rogues, due to Guidance and social spell access. That said, they're not quite as good at it as I thought they were, since I had missed the pg173 rule about only adding multipliers once.

[Kileonhardt]

Not every table allows multiclassing. In fact, UA is written specifically without multiclassing in mind.

I can't think of any +Cha race that gets any form of armor proficiency on its own. Which sucks, because Volo's Aasimar Favored Soul just bleeds flavor. Unfortunately, without armor, it just bleeds. :smallbiggrin:

I know that UA is written without multiclassing in mind, hell I've been arguing that fact with people for the past day. I was just pointing out that if you wanted armor there are definitely ways to get it but I don't feel like this iteration of FS needs it. I'll be using one of my limited spells known on Mage Armor myself.


They're definitely better at it than Rogues, due to Guidance and social spell access. That said, they're not quite as good at it as I thought they were, since I had missed the pg173 rule about only adding multipliers once.

I missed it as well my first time through. I was going to multi into Rogue 1 for expertise and grab Actor when I could for all the mischievous fun. Instead I just get to grab Actor and be slightly less powerful at having fun :smallbiggrin:

[Specter]

They're definitely better at it than Rogues, due to Guidance and social spell access. That said, they're not quite as good at it as I thought they were, since I had missed the pg173 rule about only adding multipliers once.

That is subjective. Rogues can take only 10-above on the die, even on a disadvantage. That's a huge factor.

[Dr. Cliché]

So, what do you think are good cleric spells for a Favoured Soul to take?

I'm assuming Spiritual Weapon and I've seen Sacred Flame mentioned.

What else?

[jaappleton]

So, what do you think are good cleric spells for a Favoured Soul to take?

I'm assuming Spiritual Weapon and I've seen Sacred Flame mentioned.

What else?

Sorcerer's get more Cantrips than anyone.

Guidance is a no brainer. Thaumaturgy is a lot of fun, but I try to limit myself to only one or two 'flavor' cantrips, like that and Minor Illusion.

Bless is a solid one to always have on. I mean, it helps everybody. They get no source of armor at all, so if you don't MC and aren't a Dwarf, you sorta have to go with Mage Armor. And there's of course Shield, that's just a staple. Can't ever go wrong with Shield.

So now you're at 3 spells and at least 1 Cantrip.

GOOD LUCK FITTING EVERYTHING ELSE IN!

I'm not angry about it, you are. >_>

[Kileonhardt]

Sorcerer's get more Cantrips than anyone.

Guidance is a no brainer. Thaumaturgy is a lot of fun, but I try to limit myself to only one or two 'flavor' cantrips, like that and Minor Illusion.

Bless is a solid one to always have on. I mean, it helps everybody. They get no source of armor at all, so if you don't MC and aren't a Dwarf, you sorta have to go with Mage Armor. And there's of course Shield, that's just a staple. Can't ever go wrong with Shield.

So now you're at 3 spells and at least 1 Cantrip.

GOOD LUCK FITTING EVERYTHING ELSE IN!

I'm not angry about it, you are. >_>

I'm angry about it! :smallfurious:

Trying to figure out a spell list for an 11th level FS using the new FS is some of the most frustrating stuff ever. It's honestly a case of "there's too many good things that I have access to, but not enough access to use them all."

[jaappleton]

I'm angry about it! :smallfurious:

Trying to figure out a spell list for an 11th level FS using the new FS is some of the most frustrating stuff ever. It's honestly a case of "there's too many good things that I have access to, but not enough access to use them all."

I'll try to help. Any sort of theme you have going? Or just "Whatever's good"?

[MrStabby]

So, what do you think are good cleric spells for a Favoured Soul to take?

I'm assuming Spiritual Weapon and I've seen Sacred Flame mentioned.

What else?

Bless.

With this spell alone you win a huge number of fights.

[Kileonhardt]

I'll try to help. Any sort of theme you have going? Or just "Whatever's good"?

No theme really, it's just hard to crunch so much good stuff down into such a small package.

Party is a ranger/rogue, draconic sorc, bladesinger, fighter/pally, and some OP homebrew mounted fighter.

Obviously I want to be the good guy and pick up some healing to save the party when needed and grab revivify or raise dead for when things go south. Other than that the options are so endless it hurts to think about.

[jaappleton]

Suggestions for an 11th level Favored Soul

Cantrips
Guidance, Thaumaturgy
Firebolt, Shocking Grasp
??? Whatever you want

Spells (Listed by spell level)
Bless, Healing Word, Shield
Misty Step, Hold Person
Counterspell, Haste, Fireball / Lightning Bolt (Pick one)
Greater Invisibility
Hold Monster


That takes you up to 5th level. Here's where it gets tricky; 6th level spells have a LOT to offer. I decided against no Spiritual Weapon because you're better off Quickening a Firebolt for 3d10 as your bonus action.

You only have ONE sixth level spell slot, but there's some great spells there.

Heal, Sunbeam, Chain Lightning and Disintegrate are all amazing choices. Remember you've got Metamagic. Disintegrate with the ability to force Disadvantage on the save is great. As far as the lack of damage spells at levels 4 and 5, remember that Fireball / Lightning Bolt scale incredibly well.

Using the Heal spell as a bonus action will frustrate your DM more than anything.

"The enemy crits you for 65 damage!"
"Yeah I cast Heal as a bonus action with Quicken, so eat ---- "

[SharkForce]

Please read my earlier post and tell me what spells to pick.


Sorcerer's have an extremelly low number of spells known. It not even enough to cherry pick only from sorcerer's spell list without missing lots of stuff.

Before saying having access to both spell lists is OP, try making your spell progression from 1st to 20th level. It is hard.

And by the way, Spirit Guardians is a terrible spell for a Favored Soul. It is great on a cleric that can enjoy 18+ AC since 1st level, but you definitively don’t want to stay within 15 feet of your enemies with a Favored Soul.

you start off by taking cleric spells. once you've got a few under your belt (and spirit guardians is perfectly fine, there are a number of options for providing AC and your HP isn't really that much lower than a cleric), essentially giving you a core of actions you can use in most fights, you start picking utility based on what your party needs.

see, there's this crazy assumption that because shield is a good spell, you absolutely must have it, and you can't not have it. shield is good. at level 15, when you've got lots of higher level spell slots to spend your resources on. at level 1, it's a horrible idea. I don't have time to work up a list for you at the moment, but you're thinking as if you need to take every single spell you would have liked from the sorcerer list, and every single spell you would like from the cleric list, and that simply is not the case. it would certainly be nice to have everything, but the sorcerer already wasn't covering every possibility anyways, how is it not a major boost to be able to cover most situations with a small selection of spells?

edit: oh, and for the cleric spell list, I actually think extend looks a lot more interesting than twin for the most part.

[Kileonhardt]

Suggestions for an 11th level Favored Soul

Cantrips
Guidance, Thaumaturgy
Firebolt, Shocking Grasp
??? Whatever you want

Spells (Listed by spell level)
Bless, Healing Word, Shield
Misty Step, Hold Person
Counterspell, Haste, Fireball / Lightning Bolt (Pick one)
Greater Invisibility
Hold Monster


That takes you up to 5th level. Here's where it gets tricky; 6th level spells have a LOT to offer. I decided against no Spiritual Weapon because you're better off Quickening a Firebolt for 3d10 as your bonus action.

You only have ONE sixth level spell slot, but there's some great spells there.

Heal, Sunbeam, Chain Lightning and Disintegrate are all amazing choices. Remember you've got Metamagic. Disintegrate with the ability to force Disadvantage on the save is great. As far as the lack of damage spells at levels 4 and 5, remember that Fireball / Lightning Bolt scale incredibly well.

Using the Heal spell as a bonus action will frustrate your DM more than anything.

"The enemy crits you for 65 damage!"
"Yeah I cast Heal as a bonus action with Quicken, so eat ---- "

Yeah this is mostly what I've got. No Counterspell since our Bladesinger takes care of the limited caster enemies we go up against. Would probably take raise dead over it as a failsafe. Definitely nice to know that majority of the list I have worked out is also suggested by someone else though.

[Pex]

You wouldn't want all your spells to be cleric spells because then why aren't you playing a cleric? You're not missing out on anything just because you chose a regular sorcerer spell for a slot. Go for a theme or a particular tactic and run with it. Find which cleric spells work wonders with which metamagic.

[jaappleton]

Yeah this is mostly what I've got. No Counterspell since our Bladesinger takes care of the limited caster enemies we go up against. Would probably take raise dead over it as a failsafe. Definitely nice to know that majority of the list I have worked out is also suggested by someone else though.

I'd go with Revivify, and Suggestion (Or some social interaction spell). Revivify because its only a third level slot, its cheaper. Anyone dead for more than a minute is going to have to wait until you get to a temple. For the other spell, with your very high Charisma skills as a Favored Soul, there's some checks you just NEED to succeed, right?

[Simian]

So, what do you think are good cleric spells for a Favoured Soul to take?

I'm assuming Spiritual Weapon and I've seen Sacred Flame mentioned.

What else?

I agree with the spells others have said and also I like Geas, especially with twin or heighten spell.

Bestow Curse isn't bad. Particularly the wis sv or don't act variant. If you're opting for the disadvantage to attack me curse you should just do blindness/deafness.

Animate Dead and Create Undead are both great and would be fun to make a necromancy themed sorcerer. Harm if you can't wait until 13th level to choose finger of death, or you could just upgrade it to finger of death at 13th level.

edit: Shield of faith is a good one because it is a single target concentration spell that sorcerer's can then twin.

[DivisibleByZero]

Fire bolt sucks. Chill touch is by far, hands down, the best ranged sorc/wiz cantrip in the game. Good damage, of a type that is almost never resisted, at great range, with not one, but two good riders (situational riders, to be sure, but excellent in those situations).

[Simian]

I make zero assumptions. I use the guidelines set in the rulebooks. Those are not assumptions, those are following the patterns created by the game designers.
Zero assumptions.
If your job really is math based, then you know (or at least have the capacity to figure out) that my math is correct.
You'll notice the very first thing I told you was: "do the math"
So go ahead and do it.

I did the math, wizards have an ability that lets them cast a 1st and 2nd level spell at will. They have infinite spell points, thus they are the only pure caster by the "math". In addition to that they get arcane recovery and signature spells, further boosts to their effective spell points. Sorcerers get sorcery points that let them regenerate spell slots, druids of the land get spell recovery like wizards. All of these can be converted into spell points as well. So by your "math" warlocks are disadvantaged spell casters.

If that didn't sell you here is another example of how math favors other spell casters.

Some situations may call for a spell that gets no additional benefit from being cast as a 5th level spell. If you needed to cast tongues as a warlock for example you are only getting the benefit of a 3rd level spell even if it is technically being cast as 5th level. A straight caster would be able to cast this as a 3rd level spell but the warlock just lost spell point equivalent value.

So for all these points as well as some of the points Mr. Stabby mentioned you could argue that warlocks don't qualify as pure casters, I won't necessarily go that far, but I will say that it lends mathematical credence to Mr. Stabby's argument.

edit: the math also does not favor lore bards or "potent spellcasting" cleric domains for pure spellcasters, though they still qualify by my 2nd point and mr. stabby's points

[DivisibleByZero]

Wizards have to wait until 18th level to cast infinite spells. A warlock can do it at level 2.

[SharkForce]

You wouldn't want all your spells to be cleric spells because then why aren't you playing a cleric? You're not missing out on anything just because you chose a regular sorcerer spell for a slot. Go for a theme or a particular tactic and run with it. Find which cleric spells work wonders with which metamagic.

because clerics don't get metamagic, and because clerics don't have the option to pick sorcerer spells after they've picked their core spells that they expect to use most of the time.

cleric spells are great for a sorcerer. you only need a handful of them to cover a lot of situations. after you've got your general "do almost everything" options covered, you start asking "what would i *like* to do" and then pick based on that, since you've already answered the question "what do i need to be able to do in order to contribute effectively".

clerics have some really good spells for you to blind pick that will in all likelihood be quite impactful in almost any situation, which as a result means the sorcerer has more slots to spend on other things.

so anyways:

(these are character levels, not spell levels)

level 1: pick 2 from: bless, healing word, guiding bolt or sleep. at later levels, you will want to replace guiding bolt and/or sleep. for cantrips, i recommend guidance, prestidigitation or thaumaturgy, light if you need it, a damaging cantrip of your choice, and if you didn't need light, well, pick one that looks interesting. mage hand is nice, or possibly something from elemental evil (i really like mold earth). for armour class, you have some options: be a variant human and take magic initiate for mage armour and 2 additional cantrips of choice, choose a race that gives an armour option (including variant human for the lightly armoured feat), pick up the mage armour spell (this will be a struggle early on as you have few spell slots and few spells known), or ignore armour class entirely and use good positioning to keep you (hopefully) safe since a single lucky crit will take you down no matter what your AC is anyways for level 1. you could also splash 1 level of fighter, cleric, paladin, etc for armour proficiencies if that's your thing (and you have the attributes for it), in which case you simply move every sorcerer level down the line by 1. if that means you no longer are interested in certain spells from the list as a result of the splash, feel free to start picking whatever you like early instead of waiting for it.

level 2: probably one of whatever you didn't choose at level 1.

level 3: i would pick up spiritual weapon. between this and a cantrip, one spell will provide for you to deal excellent damage for an entire fight. depending on what you're facing, you may want to replace guiding bolt or sleep with shatter (or snilloc's if EE is in use) or maybe web, but probably wait another level since you don't exactly have a ton of level 2 spell slots to use those level 2 spells with anyways.

for metamagic, you probably don't need quicken (you've got a damage-dealing bonus action already, and unlike quicken it doesn't cost sorcerer points every round that you want to use it), so probably twin and extend, or twin and whatever you're going to want for your later picks (which could be any number of things).

level 4: in addition to replacing guiding bolt or sleep with either shatter or web if you didn't at level 3, i'd probably recommend picking up whichever one you didn't initially grab. if you didn't pick up some access to armour class earlier, you could consider picking up mage armour or light armour proficiency via feat now, or wait for mage armour at the next level. pick up whatever cantrip you didn't at level 1 that you wanted but didn't have room for yet.

level 5: spirit guardians. if you still don't have armour, you probably want to swap out either web or shatter now for mage armour. if you do, you may want to hold on to it for one more level until you have more slots, but you may also just want to grab fireball or counterspell or one of the other high impact level 3 spells, or even something you didn't get in level 2 spells that now looks more useful (lesser restoration and silence are nice, and you may also find you've got the level 1 slots to spare for shield now, or you want misty step, or bane, or whatever else you may wish to take).

level 6+: pick whatever you like. bless and cantrips in easy fights, or spirit guardians, cantrips (or direct damage spells if you pick them), and spiritual weapon in harder fights by default. in special scenarios, feel free to review your "whatever you like" spells and choose one of those instead. the whole point of this is that now you've got your default options filled (and they scale to whatever level of spell slot you need easily), and you no longer *need* to pick anything just to perform at a baseline level, so whatever you want is fine. you want revivify because your party has nobody else who can revive? go ahead. you'd rather have hypnotic pattern or haste or animate dead? do that instead. you want to try and explore glyph of warding shenanigans? why not! you think speak with dead is just dripping with flavour that fits your character concept? feel free to pick that, too. if whatever you pick turns out to be a total dud, just go back to that default formula; bless + cantrips in easy fights, spirit guardians + spiritual weapon + cantrips (or other direct damage spells) in harder fights.

[Simian]

So by your way of thinking only Wizards are full casters, because they're the only ones that get infinite spells? Thy have to wait until 18th level to cast infinite spells. A warlock can do it at level 2.

Are you saying that they have infinite spells because they can get 2 spells / hour? By that logic every caster has infinite spells because they can get 2 spells per 8 hours at level 1.

[DivisibleByZero]

Are you saying that they have infinite spells because they can get 2 spells / hour? By that logic every caster has infinite spells because they can get 2 spells per 8 hours at level 1.

Invocations, bro. Read 'em.

[Simian]

Invocations, bro. Read 'em.

Hey, I agree with that. From the do the math approach every class that gets an at will spell (excluding cantrips) is a pure caster.

Which is why we don't determine pure casters using a mathematical spell to spell point conversion.

[Kileonhardt]

I'd go with Revivify, and Suggestion (Or some social interaction spell). Revivify because its only a third level slot, its cheaper. Anyone dead for more than a minute is going to have to wait until you get to a temple. For the other spell, with your very high Charisma skills as a Favored Soul, there's some checks you just NEED to succeed, right?

Decided to say screw it and all in on my character being a Loki "blessed" Sorcerer and went with


Bane, Charm Person, Mage Armor
Alter Self, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion
Hypnotic Pattern, Major Image, Tongues
Dimension Door
Teleportation Circle
Mass Suggestion

[Pex]

Fire bolt sucks. Chill touch is by far, hands down, the best ranged sorc/wiz cantrip in the game. Good damage, of a type that is almost never resisted, at great range, with not one, but two good riders (situational riders, to be sure, but excellent in those situations).

But those creatures that are resistant or immune to necrotic damage are quite common as PC foes, namely undead (except zombies and skeletons). It doesn't matter how many monsters in the manual are resistant to a particular damage type. What matters is how often the party faces such foes for that particular campaign. Fire Bolt is just fine, though a Sorcerer player would be wise to have another damage cantrip for those instances Fire Bolt wouldn't work. Pick up Elemental Adept if you like Fireball, or just don't resent Fireball and Fire Bolt aren't optimal for one particular combat and cast something else.

It would be an interesting concept to use necrotic and radiant damage spells. Chill Touch and Sacred Flame. Vampiric Touch and Spirit Guardians. Fun roleplaying themes can come out of that.

[LudicSavant]

So, what do you think are good cleric spells for a Favoured Soul to take?

I'm assuming Spiritual Weapon and I've seen Sacred Flame mentioned.

What else?

Guidance is an easy choice. Effectively +2.5 (on average) to all skill checks for any party member as long as you're not under strict time pressure (such as in combat). That's straight up better than doubling your proficiency bonus at levels 1-4, not to mention its versatility and application to things that skill proficiencies usually don't cover. And when combat does start? You have +2.5 on initiative, or your first Athletics/Acrobatics contest.

Healing Word lets you abuse the yo-yo healing meta, and Twin/Quicken means that enemies can't apply nearly as much kill threat pressure by downing 2-3 allies at a time.

Heal and Death Ward work with metamagic.

Spirit Guardians is as good as ever. Since you don't really need your Action if you're using Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians, you can straight up wade into an enemy team of mooks and take Dodge actions with your fat AC and save bonuses and just wait for them to be dead... and still have SG duration left over for a few more encounters, potentially.

Animate Dead becomes an option, granting the Sorcerer minionmancy.

[DivisibleByZero]

Which is why we don't determine pure casters using a mathematical spell to spell point conversion.

Yes we absolutely can.
Look, it's like this:
Does the warlock have spellcasting power equivalent to every other full caster in the game? Yes, it does.
Does the warlock have 9th level spells? Yes, it does.
Is your (or anyone else's) personal opinion on how Pact Magic compares to traditional casters' slot relevant to this power equivalency comparison? No, it is not.
The warlock is a full caster, whether you like the way it was designed or not.
I'm finished arguing this tangent in a thread about Favored Souls. Go start a new thread if you want to continue arguing what is mathematically and logically incontrovertible.

[Sir cryosin]

I'm just throwing out a thought here but. What if for the new FS they open up know spells like a cleric were each day you pick a spell list? I think that would be nice to add to a sorcerer.

[Dr. Cliché]

I am, and it isn't foolish, nor is it subjective. It absolutely is objective, because math is objective.

Do the math.
Look at the spell points variant rule. See how many spell points a traditional full caster gets. Warlocks refresh their spell slots on a short rest. The PHB states that there should be 2 or 3 short rests per adventuring day. Take that to average 2.5. Add one for the starting slots prior to that rest to get 3.5. Look at what spell level the Warlock has available. Take that spell level and refer to the spell point variant to see how many spell points a slot of that level is worth. Take that number and multiply by the total number of slots that the Warlock has per short rest. Take that number and multiply by the aforementioned 3.5 to see how many spell points they have available on the average adventuring day. Now add the points for one each of spell levels 6 through 9 for Mystic Arcanum. Compare that total to how many spell points a wizard using that variant would have.
Guess what you'll find?
They're almost identical numbers, all the way from level 2 through level 20. They're actually higher than the table shows for other casters in many cases. Mathematically speaking, the Warlock is the most powerful of the full casters.

It is not subjective. A Warlock is a full caster who uses the spell point variant, but can only create their highest level slots. This formula is also the reason why they don't get a third slot until level 11. Because getting it before then would break the math.

Given that spell points are for every casting class *except* warlock, it seems rather silly to use them in a warlock comparison.

Or, more accurately, it seems foolish to claim that the results of such a comparison are in any way meaningful.

[Crusher]

Ah, the knowledge cleric, one of the scarier clerics and yet I feel it gets very little love.

I was in a campaign one time with a knowledge cleric who was surprisingly effective in combat. Used a Giant Pencil as her Spiritual Weapon, which was hilarious.

[Naanomi]

Seems to me 'too many good choices, can't get them all' should be where every caster should be...

[Crusher]

I have to say, I like the new FS a lot more than the old one. I didn't really get why the old one existed since it was (flavor-wise) pretty much a Sorcadin. The armor and extra attack didn't really bother me since they gave up a fair bit to get them and plenty of other casters had those abilities as well. I just didn't get its reason for existing.

And I didn't really like it, because imo taking a class whose core concept is having a very limited list of available spells and then increasing it by ~60% flies in the face of what being a Sorcerer meant. Obviously, other folks have their own opinions and may feel differently, but this is how it felt to me.

The new version works better, imo. I do agree with others that I kinda wish they'd made it more Domain specific (since you're the chosen of a particular god, shouldn't you have a close affinity with whatever that god stands for?), and in the campaigns I DM, I can see myself allowing the class. Then, instead of Supernatural Resilience (I get why its there, but I think its fairly unessential), I'd let the player pick a Domain and gradually add up to 3 Domain spells to their list of known spells without costing them Known Spell slots.

Alternatively, I could see giving that to the player at level 6 instead of Divine Countenance (welcome to level 6, you can pick up to 3 level 1-3 Domain spells and add them to your list for free). I might discuss that with the player.

[DivisibleByZero]

Given that spell points are for every casting class *except* warlock, it seems rather silly to use them in a warlock comparison.

Or, more accurately, it seems foolish to claim that the results of such a comparison are in any way meaningful.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514648-Warlock-is-a-full-caster-so-stop-claiming-that-he-isn-t&p=21686832#post21686832

[Dr. Cliché]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514648-Warlock-is-a-full-caster-so-stop-claiming-that-he-isn-t&p=21686832#post21686832

Yeah, I saw what you did. But my point was that the system you're using for the comparison wasn't designed for warlocks.

They are literally the only caster class in the PHB that can't use spell points.

Hence, it seems logical to assume that spell points simply don't work for warlocks (otherwise they'd be included in the spell point system with an appropriate modification). Hence, you should not use spell points for any comparison involving warlocks.


Unless there's some official errata that I'm not aware of, which adapts the spell point system to fit warlocks?

[DivisibleByZero]

Yeah, I saw what you did. But my point was that the system you're using for the comparison wasn't designed for warlocks.

They are literally the only caster class in the PHB that can't use spell points.

Hence, it seems logical to assume that spell points simply don't work for warlocks (otherwise they'd be included in the spell point system with an appropriate modification). Hence, you should not use spell points for any comparison involving warlocks.


Unless there's some official errata that I'm not aware of, which adapts the spell point system to fit warlocks?

Perhaps you don't understand the point of my making a new thread.

[Dr. Cliché]

Back on topic, how do you think the Favoured Soul holds up to an actual Cleric?



Perhaps you don't understand the point of my making a new thread.

Ah, sorry, for some reason I thought that was a link to an earlier post. :smalltongue:

[bid]

No, Warlock's status as a full caster in not controversial.
"giving rise or likely to give rise to public disagreement"

[Asmotherion]

Hey forum-lurkers,

Looking to see what you all think of the favored soul specifically.

The unearthed arcana changed a good bit of things on it.

Looks like more of a pure caster than melee oriented caster now.

Which makes me wonder which niche it fits into and what kind of role it might fill in a party.

Perhaps a healer with more blasting potential?

Let's see what you've noticed or come up with!

Thanks in advance,

Dove

My take is that, wile the old Favored Soul was much more powerfull, I like this one more because it's much more balanced.

[jaappleton]

There's an important thing to note when talking about both Favored Soul archetypes.

The original one, with extra attack, bonus spells, and medium armor was created by Rodney Thompson. It's one of the last things he made before leaving WotC to go to Bungie.

This one was made by Mearls & Crawford.

That said, I do think this newest one is more in-line with 5Es overall design philosophy. The previous Favored Soul was... It felt tacked on, and didn't really fall in line with the overall design of the Sorcerer, in my mind. It really felt like "Let's turn a Sorcerer into a Cleric"

And honestly, I don't know much about the inspiration for the Favored Soul, its original incarnation, etc. I believe it was a Spontaneous Spellcaster, which is a bit of a foreign concept to me (I started with 4E).

I think the older FS by Rodney Thompson was an attempt to bring something from an older edition into 5E, while wedging it into 5E's design philosophy without actually making it work with that philosophy, if that makes sense. Essentially, I think Rodney made a square peg fit a round hole by cutting off the edges and cramming it in there.

[Kileonhardt]

Back on topic, how do you think the Favoured Soul holds up to an actual Cleric?




Ah, sorry, for some reason I thought that was a link to an earlier post. :smalltongue:

I think it holds itself pretty well against full Cleric. You give up Domain things but in return get Metamagic and the ability to grab Sorc spells when there's no Cleric spells you want to grab, which IMO is more than worth it.

[jaappleton]

I think it holds itself pretty well against full Cleric. You give up Domain things but in return get Metamagic and the ability to grab Sorc spells when there's no Cleric spells you want to grab, which IMO is more than worth it.

I think it really depends a lot on what level you are. Level 3? Cleric. 6? Honestly, Cleric (Channel Divinity 2x/SR at this point, some of which replicate or enhance spells). Level 8? Sorcerer. More than enough Sorcery Points at that time to outright destroy encounters, and replenish spell slots (Something a Cleric can't do). And a Sorc might be able to do that before then, but they have to be much more picky with what they spend their SP on. And to be totally honest, outside of a few (admittedly great) spells like Heal, I think the Cleric spell list really drops off as it goes up in spell levels.

[Kileonhardt]

I think it really depends a lot on what level you are. Level 3? Cleric. 6? Honestly, Cleric (Channel Divinity 2x/SR at this point, some of which replicate or enhance spells). Level 8? Sorcerer. More than enough Sorcery Points at that time to outright destroy encounters, and replenish spell slots (Something a Cleric can't do). And a Sorc might be able to do that before then, but they have to be much more picky with what they spend their SP on. And to be totally honest, outside of a few (admittedly great) spells like Heal, I think the Cleric spell list really drops off as it goes up in spell levels.

Very true, I was comparing FS to Cleric as a 1-20 thing in which I put FS on even playing field with Cleric. In low level 1 shots I'd say Cleric takes the cake. Mid to high level games FS is still an arcane caster so that's a no brainer.

[Crusher]

I think the older FS by Rodney Thompson was an attempt to bring something from an older edition into 5E, while wedging it into 5E's design philosophy without actually making it work with that philosophy, if that makes sense. Essentially, I think Rodney made a square peg fit a round hole by cutting off the edges and cramming it in there.

That's an interesting observation about Thompson and I have no doubt that you're right about that being part of the reason for the change in flavor/philosophy.

That having been said, its possible that Thompson was trying to import something from an older version but it wasn't the old Favored Soul. I don't know 4e at all, but iirc in 3 and 3.5, FS was almost exactly related to a Cleric as Sorc was to a Wizard. Far fewer spell choices, but more casting slots, and otherwise very similar proficiencies. The new version is still fairly different but its a LOT more like the 3.5 FS than the prior version was.

I will say that watching the transition from old FS to new FS and the accompanying discussion has gotten me interested in trying to homebrew an old-FS derived Gish class build along something like "full caster spell slot progression, but you get to pick *1* spell per caster level" and then getting a second attack around level 6.

Maybe have different flavors associated with the different caster types, though that might get too complicated. Perhaps just three "schools" based on caster stat with modestly different abilities, and then you get to pick your spell(s) from the list of the associated stat. So, INT Gishes get Wizard spells, WIS Gishes get Cleric, Druid, Ranger, or Paladin spells, and CHR gets Warlock, Sorcerer or Bard spells. Hmm. I knew INT casters get hosed, but I always forget just how thoroughly they get hosed.

[DivisibleByZero]

That having been said, its possible that Thompson was trying to import something from an older version but it wasn't the old Favored Soul. I don't know 4e at all, but iirc in 3 and 3.5, FS was almost exactly related to a Cleric as Sorc was to a Wizard. Far fewer spell choices, but more casting slots, and otherwise very similar proficiencies. The new version is still fairly different but its a LOT more like the 3.5 FS than the prior version was.

3.5's FvS was the sorcerous spontaneous casting version of a cleric. It had all of the abilities (and a few more) that the previous iteration of FvS had.
Since 5e doesn't have a sorcerous divine caster, there were two choices:
1) Make an entirely new base class
2) Make it a sorcerer subclass.
He chose the former, and it was a pretty damned good representation of what a FvS was.
This new version should have a different name, because it isn't a FvS. That much is certain.

[Arkhios]

I don't know much about the inspiration for the Favored Soul, its original incarnation, etc. I believe it was a Spontaneous Spellcaster, which is a bit of a foreign concept to me (I started with 4E).

For what it's worth, here (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/favored-soul/index.html)'s the original (as far as I know) from 3.5

[Malaketh]

My DM is allowing a switch from my wild sorc to favorite soul. We are 5th level in curse of strahd. What do you all think of my spell choices thus far. Much harder than I thought.

Level 1: Mage armour, shield, guiding bolt

Level 2: Mirror image, spiritual weapon

Level 3: Animate dead

[SharkForce]

My DM is allowing a switch from my wild sorc to favorite soul. We are 5th level in curse of strahd. What do you all think of my spell choices thus far. Much harder than I thought.

Level 1: Mage armour, shield, guiding bolt

Level 2: Mirror image, spiritual weapon

Level 3: Animate dead

animate dead and spiritual weapon both use your bonus action.

guiding bolt, i'm not so sure of at level 5.

you've got a lot of stuff dedicated to defense... i feel like you could use more stuff to make people need to attack you before worrying too much about defense.

you have literally nothing that uses concentration as far as i can tell. i would say find something worth concentrating on... it could be something simple like bless, just as one possibility.

i'm not familiar with the AL rules for CoS, but i for one would hesitate to use evil spells in ravenloft... if it's anything like how i understand ravenloft to work, animate dead may have some extra drawbacks... so i personally would be slightly inclined to pick up spirit guardians, especially in ravenloft (and against strahd in particular, being a vampire, radiant damage is probably not the worst thing you could do).


on the flip side, if you're having fun, then ignore everything i just said and stick with what you're enjoying. i'm just some random guy on the internet, who am i to tell you how to enjoy playing D&D?

[Ogre Mage]

My DM is allowing a switch from my wild sorc to favorite soul. We are 5th level in curse of strahd. What do you all think of my spell choices thus far. Much harder than I thought.

Level 1: Mage armour, shield, guiding bolt

Level 2: Mirror image, spiritual weapon

Level 3: Animate dead

I would drop either mage armor or shield for bless. The spell is that good. It would be wonderful if we had many slots for defense but with so few I don't think we have that luxury and you also have mirror image. And be sure to include yourself in the bless. It makes your guiding bolt and spiritual weapon more likely to hit.

In another campaign I would recommend fireball, lightning bolt, hypnotic pattern, haste or spirit guardians over Animate Dead, but I understand why it was chosen for Curse of Strahd. That said, don't be surprised if the spell has bad unexpected side effects.

[Malaketh]

Thanks for the tips, my DM was unusually keen for me to take animate dead 😕 I didn't take bless as we have a cleric in the party. Good suggestions though. Yes you are all anonymous entities but anonymous entities that know what's good. I'm new to 5e so all this bonus action, reaction, concentration stuff is new.

[Ogre Mage]

Thanks for the tips, my DM was unusually keen for me to take animate dead 😕 I didn't take bless as we have a cleric in the party. Good suggestions though. Yes you are all anonymous entities but anonymous entities that know what's good. I'm new to 5e so all this bonus action, reaction, concentration stuff is new.

Ah. Well, if you don't need bless then I would probably drop either mage armor or shield for one of those juicy third level spells mentioned. Sharkforce prefers spirit guardians, but one of the others I mentioned could work. What are your metamagics?

Given that there are so many undead in Ravenloft, it might be worth holding on to guiding bolt for now, as it too does radiant damage.

[MeeposFire]

For what it's worth, here (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/favored-soul/index.html)'s the original (as far as I know) from 3.5

The favored soul had the same problem as the sorcerer in 3e in that it was a class more about an explanation for an alternative casting mechanic than a desired concept. Now the concept is an interesting idea but honestly the 3e class abilities are kind of thrown together which was a common criticism of the class (though not a real problem since prestige classes were so popular).

The first version for 5e is more tightly tied to the original mechanics at least certain specific ones (like the wings). Personally I think the newer one actually lets you more closely play the 3e version in terms of casting (being able to choose all cleric spells of any type). Either way you go the biggest problem is that its main claim to fame of being the divine spontaneous caster no longer means much in 5e. The general fluff can be supported by either version.

[Arkhios]

The favored soul had the same problem as the sorcerer in 3e in that it was a class more about an explanation for an alternative casting mechanic than a desired concept. Now the concept is an interesting idea but honestly the 3e class abilities are kind of thrown together which was a common criticism of the class (though not a real problem since prestige classes were so popular).

The first version for 5e is more tightly tied to the original mechanics at least certain specific ones (like the wings). Personally I think the newer one actually lets you more closely play the 3e version in terms of casting (being able to choose all cleric spells of any type). Either way you go the biggest problem is that its main claim to fame of being the divine spontaneous caster no longer means much in 5e. The general fluff can be supported by either version.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not taking sides on which version is better, the Rodney Thompson's or Crawford & Mearls's.

I was merely posting the original for reference.

Both have their pro's and con's.

On the other hand, I felt that Thompson had it right for the armor proficiency and possibly even Extra Attack (it's not completely unprecedent for a full caster - look at Valor Bard), while JC & MM handled the spells much better (the way I would've done it, if I were to choose).

[Malaketh]

Ah. Well, if you don't need bless then I would probably drop either mage armor or shield for one of those juicy third level spells mentioned. Sharkforce prefers spirit guardians, but one of the others I mentioned could work. What are your metamagics?

Given that there are so many undead in Ravenloft, it might be worth holding on to guiding bolt for now, as it too does radiant damage.

I have twinned and Quickened but the DM is allowing me to rework even that as this subclass is a drastic change.

And yes, the cleric is always putting bless up so no problem there.

Edit: I just realized a Sorcerer can swap a lower level spell for a higher level one? Am I reading that correctly?

[Arkhios]

I have twinned and Quickened but the DM is allowing me to rework even that as this subclass is a drastic change.

And yes, the cleric is always putting bless up so no problem there.

Edit: I just realized a Sorcerer can swap a lower level spell for a higher level one? Am I reading that correctly?

@Edit: as long as you're capable of casting the higher level sorcerer spell, yes. As a pre-emptive reminder: Higher level slots via multiclassing do not count as "being capable of casting sorcerer spells" in that regard.

[Kileonhardt]

I have twinned and Quickened but the DM is allowing me to rework even that as this subclass is a drastic change.

And yes, the cleric is always putting bless up so no problem there.

Edit: I just realized a Sorcerer can swap a lower level spell for a higher level one? Am I reading that correctly?

So long as you have Sorcerer slots of that spell level you can trade in any of your known spells for a spell of up to that level.

Edit: Ninja'd by Arkhios :smallfrown:

[SharkForce]

I have twinned and Quickened but the DM is allowing me to rework even that as this subclass is a drastic change.

And yes, the cleric is always putting bless up so no problem there.

Edit: I just realized a Sorcerer can swap a lower level spell for a higher level one? Am I reading that correctly?

i personally am quite fond of extend in theory for a favoured soul. i don't think i'd go for it on your specific character, though. maybe as a third or fourth metamagic.

but i'm also not as sure about quicken. the "typical" uses for quicken on a single class sorcerer always seems to involve casting a spell with a bonus action and then using a cantrip. you already have a spell for bonus action damage. possibly two. so, ultimately, i have to ask: how often do you find yourself, say, quickening a spell and then dodging? dashing? breaking free from grapples? etc?

so you may want to re-think quicken if it isn't going to come up often outside the context of dealing a bit more damage in a nova round. i'm not sure if there's another metamagic i would specifically recommend to you instead, just pointing out that it's something to look at.

but here are some to consider:

extend: if you ever do get spirit guardians and expect to go through several fights in a row, for a very low cost you can get twice as many fights out of it. you can also use it to extend certain healing spells, though i can't recall if any are cleric spells. it's handy for doubling the duration of some of the hour-long cleric spells you'll potentially be getting, as well as polymorph in a couple of levels. it is also useful for extending shield, so that you get a more efficient defensive buff.

subtle: you don't have the spell list to make it shine actively, but it always has potentially for just in case situations. you might get silenced (possibly even by yourself)? subtle spell can help. you need to cast a spell from stealth? subtle can help. you're under water? subtle can help. you've been taken prisoner? subtle can help. it is, of course, also quite good for stuff like subtle suggestion on someone with armed guards. if you pick up suggestion, that is.

careful spell: don't use it for avoiding friendly fire on damage (unless the rest of the party has evasion or equivalent, or just doesn't mind taking damage on occasion so long as it's less damage than the horde of goblins will collectively take). use it for avoiding friendly fire on spells that create a zone of control that forces saving throws. like web, or stinking cloud. you and your friends can fight in it no problem. enemies will hopefully not be so fortunate. you can also make use of it for save or sucks that might otherwise risk friendly fire; hypnotic pattern can be used even when enemies are mixed in with your allies, for example. with your current spell list, it isn't very good. i don't know what your future spell list looks like though.

heighten: i've never been a huge fan. it costs a lot, it only works on one target for one save, and you have to pay in advance. you don't get to pick which save either, it's always the first one (so if you have something that debuffs the first save already, you can't use this to target the second save). with that said, it has it's uses. it helps get through magic resistance, which can be a big deal. and sometimes, you only care about one target anyways, and you need them to be affected on the first save anyways. once again, your current spell list doesn't favour heighten. if you think your future one will, keep it in mind i guess.

so... for the moment, if you decide that quicken just isn't for you, i suppose by default i would recommend subtle. it won't come up often (but twin will eat plenty of sorcerer points anyways), but when it does come up it is absolutely amazing. or, you could keep quicken, because sometimes casting a spell and then dodging is a really good idea.

[Malaketh]

i personally am quite fond of extend in theory for a favoured soul. i don't think i'd go for it on your specific character, though. maybe as a third or fourth metamagic.

but i'm also not as sure about quicken. the "typical" uses for quicken on a single class sorcerer always seems to involve casting a spell with a bonus action and then using a cantrip. you already have a spell for bonus action damage. possibly two. so, ultimately, i have to ask: how often do you find yourself, say, quickening a spell and then dodging? dashing? breaking free from grapples? etc?
et al

Good advice, I may consider extend or subtle as the list may change as we level. I thought I read on here the virtues of distant spell for the new favored soul? Not just for me now, I have enough ammo to move on thank you, but in general for the favored soul.

[Pex]

I have twinned and Quickened but the DM is allowing me to rework even that as this subclass is a drastic change.

And yes, the cleric is always putting bless up so no problem there.

Edit: I just realized a Sorcerer can swap a lower level spell for a higher level one? Am I reading that correctly?

It wouldn't hurt the party for both of you having Bless. If there are more than three of you in the party then can both cast it and pretty much cover everyone each using only a 1st level slot. If your party is larger than 6 then having more than one Bless is a bigger deal. Since Bless is concentration, you can take turns allowing the cleric to concentrate on another spell, Sacred Guardians perhaps.

It is a good idea in general for spellcasters to diversify their spells among them when able to cast the same spells. If one Sorcerer has Fireball the other Sorcerer could have Lightning Bolt. However, some spells are potent enough having more than one available makes the party stronger. Bless is one of those spells.

[Kane0]

Well you can extend a ton of Animate Dead / Create Undead spells now, so that's a thing.

It's pretty good though, more balanced against other bloodlines than the original but in a much less gishy direction. Some like, some don't.

[Malaketh]

Well you can extend a ton of Animate Dead / Create Undead spells now, so that's a thing.

It's pretty good though, more balanced against other bloodlines than the original but in a much less gishy direction. Some like, some don't.

I think extend caps at 24 hours. Which is the duration of animate dead already

[SharkForce]

I think extend caps at 24 hours. Which is the duration of animate dead already

yup. the great majority of the spells that could make extend interesting to take are the spells where you can't really take it.

the cleric spell list just happens to have a bunch of the spells that are in the middle; long enough to last through more than one fight, but not so long that the metamagic can't work on them at all.

edit: oh, and to answer a different question... i don't see a ton of value from distant spell with the cleric list. perhaps those who really like it can explain why it looks so good, but to me distant still stays pretty "meh".

[Ogre Mage]

et al

Good advice, I may consider extend or subtle as the list may change as we level. I thought I read on here the virtues of distant spell for the new favored soul? Not just for me now, I have enough ammo to move on thank you, but in general for the favored soul.

Going off vague memory here, but I think I remember reading that someone liked distant spell on a cleric because it allowed cure/inflict wounds to be cast at a distance instead of range touch. Personally, I am not sure I find that to be a compelling enough reason.

If you are planning to keep twinned spell, which I think most here would recommend, you might want to consider what spells will work best with it. Twinned spell can only affect a spell which under normal circumstances can only target one creature, so I think the only one on your current list which can benefit is guiding bolt. Being able to toss two guiding bolts per round for just 1 SP is economical, but you might want to consider other spells which can also benefit.

Healing Word: Your cleric should have this already, but it is always a good idea to have multiple healers in the party, esp. if the cleric goes down. Being able to heal two people at once at range 60 ft. could be a lifesaver in a critical situation.

Cure Wounds: Same as healing word, but unfortunately it is range touch, so the two people being healed must be right next to each other, which is a big limiting factor.

Haste: This can be an incredible spell to twin if you have two big damage physical attackers in the party (probably a barb/fighter/paladin/ranger/rogue). If you don't have two good PCs to target then it is solid but not incredible. The additional action cannot be used to cast a spell so it is not a great buff on pure casters.

[Athoren]

Distant spare the dying/revivify

[Arkhios]

Distant spare the dying/revivify

Better yet, distant cure wounds!

[Kileonhardt]

Better yet, distant cure wounds!

Better yet, distant Bless for when you end up low initiative and the targets you want it on have already moved out of your possible range to engage in combat. Also stuff like 120ft Spiritual Weapon, Healing Word, Banishment, Counterspell, or Hold Person are nicer so you can protect the back line while still maintaining your normal place in battle.

Being able to drop Spiritual Weapon on an enemy caster far back on the battlefield is great.

And I personally love 1000ft Dimension Door :smallbiggrin:

[SharkForce]

Better yet, distant cure wounds!

healing word already heals at a distance. this isn't a situation where you can easily just pick up both spells either.

i'm just not seeing the need for distant spell. it isn't completely bad, but i feel like it offers a lot less than other metamagic options.

[Arkhios]

healing word already heals at a distance. this isn't a situation where you can easily just pick up both spells either.

i'm just not seeing the need for distant spell. it isn't completely bad, but i feel like it offers a lot less than other metamagic options.

Cure Wounds heals more than Healing Word, which makes a big difference if you can cast it from range rather than on touch.

[jaappleton]

Cure Wounds heals more than Healing Word, which makes a big difference if you can cast it from range rather than on touch.

True, but you only get two Metamagic options prior to lv10. Between Heightened, Quickened, and Twinned, do you really want to spend one on Distant?

[Arkhios]

True, but you only get two Metamagic options prior to lv10. Between Heightened, Quickened, and Twinned, do you really want to spend one on Distant?

Sure, if my intentions required it. I don't see why should everyone always take the exact same metamagics?

[Kileonhardt]

Sure, if my intentions required it. I don't see why should everyone always take the exact same metamagics?

Yeah my current FS is going pure flavor so I went Distant, Extended, and Subtle. I'll probably regret not having at least Twinned or Quickened but whatever.

[Theodoxus]

I think they went in the wrong direction.

OFS (original favored soul) with the armor and domains was closer to the 3.P iteration. I'm coming from the viewpoint that the gameworld is persistent. Even major upheavals by the gods (aka edition changes) don't wipe out the underlying fundamentals of character classes. The core mechanics might change, but the feeling of the class shouldn't - at least not horribly.

For this reason, I would have developed NFS as a base sorcerer, but only access to Cleric spells, and a specific domain. In essence, replace the Wizard subclass Theurge with FS - if you want a more blasty FS, grab Arcane, Light or Tempest; a more healy one, go Life. I'd probably grant domain abilities akin to Theurge... don't have time to map it out, but that's the core premise I'd go with. A charisma based divine caster who follows clerical aspirations but has the limited spellcasting of a sorc with the metamagic support that boosts their power.

[SharkForce]

Cure Wounds heals more than Healing Word, which makes a big difference if you can cast it from range rather than on touch.

but neither of them really heals enough to reliably get someone out of the danger zone, and either one does heal enough to get someone up from being 0 HP.

if cure wounds was a much larger heal, it might be worth considering, but for an average of 2 extra hit points per spell level, we're not exactly talking about something that's going to make a huge difference most of the time. *maybe* if your goal is to be primarily a healer, but at that point, you shouldn't be looking at favoured soul sorcerer, you should be looking at life cleric (and maybe pick up some sorcerer levels later on for metamagic through multiclassing).

[Kileonhardt]

but neither of them really heals enough to reliably get someone out of the danger zone, and either one does heal enough to get someone up from being 0 HP.

if cure wounds was a much larger heal, it might be worth considering, but for an average of 2 extra hit points per spell level, we're not exactly talking about something that's going to make a huge difference most of the time. *maybe* if your goal is to be primarily a healer, but at that point, you shouldn't be looking at favoured soul sorcerer, you should be looking at life cleric (and maybe pick up some sorcerer levels later on for metamagic through multiclassing).


For a dedicated healer FS X / Life Cleric 1 would no doubt be better than Life Cleric. You only need that first Cleric level for healing boost and then more sorcery points for metamagic are hands down better than Life Cleric levels, assuming you aren't going to level 17 where Supreme Healing comes into play.

[SharkForce]

For a dedicated healer FS X / Life Cleric 1 would no doubt be better than Life Cleric. You only need that first Cleric level for healing boost and then more sorcery points for metamagic are hands down better than Life Cleric levels, assuming you aren't going to level 17 where Supreme Healing comes into play.

honestly not so sure on that.

for a truly dedicated healer, there's a ton of situational spells you're going to want, and really only a couple of metamagics that substantially improve your ability to heal or otherwise protect/support your party. i'd probably go 3 sorcerer/17 cleric (or at least probably get to around 3 sorcerer/11 cleric and then maybe consider taking a few more sorcerer levels). the cleric's huge number of spells known and ability to exchange spells on the fly offers quite a bit for someone who is primarily making a healer, imo, not to mention the life cleric's channel divinity is based on cleric level and offers a substantial amount of healing. now, if all you want is someone who can do a bit more healing than a favoured soul by default, sure a level of life cleric is all you'll need. heck, it'll even add a huge amount of (level 1) spells known, freeing up your sorcerer spells known for other stuff... but if what you want is a dedicated healer, cleric does that quite well and life cleric in particular does it extremely well.

[Hathorym]

I am thrilled with the new Favored Soul with the only exception being the 14th level. It feels underwhelming. If it were to add an ability to utilize spell points to also treat those conditions, that could be interesting. However, I believe it should be something else. Such as:

Tranforming Aura: When you cast a 1st level spell or higher using metamagic, you may choose a number of creatures in a 10' radius around you. Each creature is healed for 1d8 + your Charisma modifier. The creature may choose to forego the healing to instead use it as extra damage on their next melee attack. If the attack misses, the extra damage is lost.

[Kileonhardt]

I am thrilled with the new Favored Soul with the only exception being the 14th level. It feels underwhelming. If it were to add an ability to utilize spell points to also treat those conditions, that could be interesting. However, I believe it should be something else. Such as:

Tranforming Aura: When you cast a 1st level spell or higher using metamagic, you may choose a number of creatures in a 10' radius around you. Each creature is healed for 1d8 + your Charisma modifier. The creature may choose to forego the healing to instead use it as extra damage on their next melee attack. If the attack misses, the extra damage is lost.

While I'm a fan of poison and disease immunity you're right that for a level 14 ability it's underwhelming. Can't be earlier because Monks get it at 10, but they could have replaced it with something a lot more flavorful, perhaps related to the deity related to how you got your powers. Or just kept wings since that's still flavor and definitely something people would want in the kit.

[Malaketh]

Reading the description of the fluff of the FS, does it seem reasonable that you're not actually affiliated with any specific deity, but rather you are a Divine entity, favored of the god(s) as the one power suggests

[Arkhios]

I just came to realize that with the expanded spell list you could make a pacifist character:

Pick only cantrips and spells which cure, protect, or otherwise restore ill effects.
With only 15 known spells this shouldn't be difficult.