UA Warlock is comming!

[Asmotherion]

Next week it's the Warlock's turn!!! What should we expect? A revised, more balanced Undying Light Patron? A new flavorfull Shadowfell Warlock? Force Warlock (Sith Themed)? New pact options?

What do you expect/want to get?

[Kane0]

I wouldnt be surprised if there were a dragon one, though i'd love to see a giant/titan one and a proper undead one. Something more exotic like slaadi would be fun as well.

[skaddix]

I doubt we get another elemental back seeing as the Sorcerer just got it.

What Warlock really needs is too rebalance the Pact Options. So that Tome isn't so much better that the other are only good for flavor.

[rlc]

Some new pacts and invocations. I'll also say shadow and elemental warlock, with water being pretty likely

[MrStabby]

A water themed warlock would float my boat.:smallcool:

I would like to see more than new patrons. A couple of new invocations, a new patron, a new pact... all together it would really open the options up.

I would like a more Arabian feeling fiend pact with a Djinni option, a nature patron option (more so than Fey), I would like a pact type associated with stealth and sneaking and more invocations that modify attacks (like agonising blast and lifedrinker - but for other spells/effects).

[NecroDancer]

Perhaps a demon pact (the current fiend pact is kinda devil focused).

[Kobard]

I doubt we get another elemental back seeing as the Sorcerer just got it.

What Warlock really needs is too rebalance the Pact Options. So that Tome isn't so much better that the other are only good for flavor.See, and I was thinking that the Tomelock needs more invocation options that gave it more flavor.

I would say one of the biggest problems with the pact options is that they are effectively pact taxes. Your Tomelock must take the Book of Ancient Secrets. Your Bladelock must take the extra attack. Your Chainlock must take the Voice of the Chain Master. It seems like it would have been better had the core Warlock chassis simply provided an Improved Pact Boon that handed this feature out between levels 5 and 7.

[jaappleton]

I'm hoping for new Pacts and Invocations more than I am new Patrons.

[Millstone85]

A difficulty I see is that pretty much any sorcerer theme would work as a warlock one and vice versa.

For example, I would like to see an elemental patron, but it does feel redundant now that separate sorcerous origins exist for fire, air, water and earth. Although maybe "The Genie" would be different enough?

I still think that Favored Soul and Undying Light should switch classes. If you have a connection to the raw power of radiant energy from the Positive Plane, you are a sorcerer. If you have a divine or celestial relative doing you favors, you are a warlock. But this can be fixed by having the Undying Light patron not be the plane itself.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Maybe they'll say, "Hey guys, we decided not to skip the rogue UA after all."

[MrStabby]

I'm hoping for new Pacts and Invocations more than I am new Patrons.

Yeah, although in this latest run through of the classes they seem to be more focused on the archetypes than other options.

I think there is a lot of scope for adding more patrons though - some cool things out there that would be great patrons. This in a sense is "easy". In terms of content though it is quite a bit.

There might be bigger benefits from seven more invocations and two more pacts than two more patrons, and it would probably take up about the same space.



What I want is a really something to replace eldritch blast - which is good but so much of the class rests on it. I would like to see a similar power invocation for each other cantrip option the class has.

[Joe the Rat]

I'm hoping for new Pacts and Invocations more than I am new Patrons.

Something from each category would make for a pretty cool update. Revisit the Seeker pact as a generic Augur/Divination pact, A transformation/shapeshifting pact.

New pact invocations for each pact that gives you different options - possibly exclusive ones. You can take Ancient Secrets or Book of Arcane Secrets - a extra spell "known" you can prepare from any list (but first you must transcribe it); you can take thirsting blade or shadow strike - a bundled sneak attack-like option. That sort of thing.

In terms of Patrons... I want Ur-Priest. It would be an Anti-patron of sorts. It would fit nicely with the Paladin of Screw This. I'd not be surprised by a Celestial Pact, though that's pretty close to where Undying Light sits, and they are loathe to give up a name once they use it. A nature/world/geomancer type Patron would be interesting. Druids revere nature, you cut deals with it.
An ancestor/spirit Warlock would be pretty cool, but Barbarian covered that ground, and they are trying not to have the same idea pop up in multiple UAs (hence the "no elementals" expectation here).

[MrStabby]

An ancestor/spirit Warlock would be pretty cool, but Barbarian covered that ground, and they are trying not to have the same idea pop up in multiple UAs (hence the "no elementals" expectation here).

I don't know that this quite fits. Arcane Tricksters, Eldritch Knights and Wizards all have the same idea behind magic but are quite different and coexist. Having an ancestral pact warlock would still be creating a caster very different to a barbarian.

[Frogosaurus]

I'd like to see Blade more competent at melee, and chain have familiars that get less squishy as you level.

Also, I'd like to see the Rogue UA first ;)

[Millstone85]

I'd not be surprised by a Celestial Pact, though that's pretty close to where Undying Light sits, and they are loathe to give up a name once they use it.That's a shame, because having a patron called "The Undying" and another "The Undying Light" is sure to bring confusion.

[Naanomi]

Patrons: Ancestors, Nature Spirits/Voodoo Loa, Genies, Eladrin (or whatever they are calling CG outsiders anymore)

Pacts: A voodoo mask (focus on intimidation powers), a voodoo fetish (focused on enhancing hex/curses), ritual scarification (Odin's eye etc), cauldron (potion making), vehicle (witches broom etc)

[Zalabim]

Vestige Binder. They have to at least try.

Truenamer, while we're at it. Or is that Wizard-y?

[Joe the Rat]

I don't know that this quite fits. Arcane Tricksters, Eldritch Knights and Wizards all have the same idea behind magic but are quite different and coexist. Having an ancestral pact warlock would still be creating a caster very different to a barbarian.

It's not that they couldn't make one, it's that they've been trying to avoid rehashing concepts between the classes in this run of UA articles. Though we did get both the Cleric Forge domain and the Artificer class...

I don't have high hopes for Elemental School Wizards, either.

[Kobard]

With all these jokes about the Rogue UA, have I missed something? There was the Scout in the previous update. The Rogue already has three solid PHB subclasses and two SCAG subclasses.

[MrStabby]

It's not that they couldn't make one, it's that they've been trying to avoid rehashing concepts between the classes in this run of UA articles. Though we did get both the Cleric Forge domain and the Artificer class...

I don't have high hopes for Elemental School Wizards, either.

Ah, sorry. I misunderstood you. Yes, there isn't that much overlap between these latest UA classes. A reasonable point.


With all these jokes about the Rogue UA, have I missed something? There was the Scout in the previous update. The Rogue already has three solid PHB subclasses and two SCAG subclasses.

I think people were forgetting that and just thinking about the latest UA run. For those that were waiting for more on the rogue I have some sympathy. Clerics got more love than the rogue despite having more archetypes already. Likewise I suspect that wizards will also get more than one extra archetype in their set.

[Steampunkette]

I'd love to see a Pact and a Patron based around Curses.

In D&D Warlocks seem to be mostly about standing back and blasting things with magic and occasionally calling on some demonic or fey power to do a cool thing. I'd really love it if we could have an option to focus on the more Witchy/Warlocky aspect of manipulating dark forces around a person.

Gimme the Evil Eye and the ability to place multiple Hexes out. Let me make potions of the broken heart. Let me CURSE people.

[Tanarii]

With all these jokes about the Rogue UA, have I missed something? There was the Scout in the previous update. The Rogue already has three solid PHB subclasses and two SCAG subclasses.
It's a fair point about SCAG expanding an already solid base of PHB archetypes. But the Scout wasn't a Rogue archetype, it was a Ranger on the Rogue chassis. A total back-handed insult from the Devs telling those wierdos crying about spell-less Rangers what they thought of that idea. :smallamused:

As such an actual Rogue UA is still in order. :smallwink:

[Joe the Rat]

That or the Rogue UA stabs the Wizard UA to death and takes its spot.

[JellyPooga]

Patrons: We already have Fey, Fiend, Aberration and Undead, so what creature types are left?

- Elemental : Genie is a very strong candidate here. With Fiend Patron cornering the "fire" department, I suspect Djinn and air-themed powers may be the focus.

- Celestial : like Fiend, I suspect will remain generic as the "Cleric-y" Patron.

- Dragon : Sorcerers already cornered this market and I don't see them becoming a Warlock Patron.

- Giant : Not well known for their magic, but I suspect this is where we might see "earth" powers and likely another melee-Warlock option.

- Beast : A more druidic Warlock, perhaps? Focus on shapeshifting and summoning, perhaps? A Warlock with Conjure Beasts on his spell list would be a tempting proposition. Something to complement that Beast Speech invocation would be nice!

- Humanoid : Ancestor/Voodoo? Witch? Possible room for an even more curse-based Warlock, which we haven't really seen yet. With Eyes of the Runekeeper, Eldritch Sight and Visions of Distant Realms as existing Invocations, I think a "Prophet" Warlock is a strong candidate here.

- Construct : Mindless, so not directly applicable, but there's a possible "Arcana" and/or research or divination focus to be explored here.

[MrStabby]

Patrons: We already have Fey, Fiend, Aberration and Undead, so what creature types are left?

- Elemental : Genie is a very strong candidate here. With Fiend Patron cornering the "fire" department, I suspect Djinn and air-themed powers may be the focus.

- Celestial : like Fiend, I suspect will remain generic as the "Cleric-y" Patron.

- Dragon : Sorcerers already cornered this market and I don't see them becoming a Warlock Patron.

- Giant : Not well known for their magic, but I suspect this is where we might see "earth" powers and likely another melee-Warlock option.

- Beast : A more druidic Warlock, perhaps? Focus on shapeshifting and summoning, perhaps? A Warlock with Conjure Beasts on his spell list would be a tempting proposition. Something to complement that Beast Speech invocation would be nice!

- Humanoid : Ancestor/Voodoo? Witch? Possible room for an even more curse-based Warlock, which we haven't really seen yet. With Eyes of the Runekeeper, Eldritch Sight and Visions of Distant Realms as existing Invocations, I think a "Prophet" Warlock is a strong candidate here.

- Construct : Mindless, so not directly applicable, but there's a possible "Arcana" and/or research or divination focus to be explored here.

My problem with the cursy witchy voodoo type options is not that they can't add this, but that if they do add something powerful enough to be defining it will be overpowered, as the class still has eldritch blast+agonising/repelling blast to fall back on as an action. It might take more of a class rework to make this ok - kind of like the ranger got where the core was weakened by removal of extra attack to make space for more powerful beastmaster abilities.

[Naanomi]

In my mind, warlocks are channeling extraplanar energies through a patron... ignoring the transitive Planes for now...

-Outer Planes: Fiend (could add Celestial for the 'other half' of the Outer Planes)
-Inner Planes: (Genie seems the obvious choice)
-Feywild (and by extension Positive Energy Plane): Fey
-Shadowfell (and by extension Negative Energy Plane): Undying
-Outside the Great Wheel: Old Ones

-Prime Material: (could be dragons, nature spirits)

Doesn't leave much even in the extended cosmology of past editions... some of the bigger demiplanes (dream, mirrors) are options but nothing jumps out. Temporal Energy Plane is a big puzzle piece; but not much lives there to be a Patron (ancestors?)

[Kobard]

I think people were forgetting that and just thinking about the latest UA run. For those that were waiting for more on the rogue I have some sympathy. Clerics got more love than the rogue despite having more archetypes already. Likewise I suspect that wizards will also get more than one extra archetype in their set.Clerics generally get more love as a means of addressing different deity archetypes. Wizards had their traditions. I do wish that rogues had gotten more love, but I can see why WotC perhaps thought that there was less need to expand the rogue.


It's a fair point about SCAG expanding an already solid base of PHB archetypes. But the Scout wasn't a Rogue archetype, it was a Ranger on the Rogue chassis. A total back-handed insult from the Devs telling those wierdos crying about spell-less Rangers what they thought of that idea. :smallamused:

As such an actual Rogue UA is still in order. :smallwink:It's not a Rogue archetype? I believe that it is appropriate subclass for the Rogue. Subclasses are often the primary means to create hybrid classes afterall. The Arcane Trickster is a Wizard on a Rogue chassis, and the Eldritch Knight is a Wizard on a Fighter chassis, so there is definitely reason why a Ranger on a Rogue/Fighter chassis would be considered appropriate for a Scout or spell-less Ranger. I could definitely see the appeal for the Scout subclass for my players.


Patrons: We already have Fey, Fiend, Aberration and Undead, so what creature types are left?
I know that we have Undead, but I would like to see Shadow.

[Trum4n1208]

I'm just really hopeful that Bladelock will get some work. I love the flavor of Bladelock, and would love to see some more support for it.

[Joe the Rat]

How would you class something like a Sphinx? What about a Kraken (which if you've read Volo's, seems like a *very* possible candidate)?

[MrStabby]

How would you class something like a Sphinx? What about a Kraken (which if you've read Volo's, seems like a *very* possible candidate)?

Both sphinx and Kraken could work. They have enough flavour to fill a class but not so much that you would need a whole new class and spell list.

[JumboWheat01]

While more Patrons would be nice, I would like to see more Boons. We have Blade, Chain and Tome, with another UA's Starchain being a "kind of exclusive" to Seeker Warlocks. All the new Patrons in the world still doesn't change a warlock's style as much as the Boons do. Not sure what else we could do though...


On Patrons, however, how about something like a "Mortal" Patron, a super-powerful Wizard or Sorcerer giving power through a pact with one of their servants or some-such thing. The expanded spell list would probably have more "wizardy" spells, not sure of the benefits.

[Millstone85]

- Beast : A more druidic Warlock, perhaps? Focus on shapeshifting and summoning, perhaps? A Warlock with Conjure Beasts on his spell list would be a tempting proposition. Something to complement that Beast Speech invocation would be nice!Do you think the shaman should be its own class or that it could work as warlock subclass?


- Construct : Mindless, so not directly applicable, but there's a possible "Arcana" and/or research or divination focus to be explored here.Or a patron from Mechanus. That plane is neither in the "Lower" or "Upper" club of the "Outer" ones, so it is available.


On Patrons, however, how about something like a "Mortal" Patron, a super-powerful Wizard or Sorcerer giving power through a pact with one of their servants or some-such thing. The expanded spell list would probably have more "wizardy" spells, not sure of the benefits.That reminds me of the Sorcerer-King patron from 4e Dark Sun.

[Deleted]

Next week it's the Warlock's turn!!! What should we expect? A revised, more balanced Undying Light Patron? A new flavorfull Shadowfell Warlock? Force Warlock (Sith Themed)? New pact options?

What do you expect/want to get?

I want new boons and invocations.

Don't give me new patrons. WotC aren't very good at fluff anymore so they may as well just go pick up the 3.5 binder and use the vestiges again.

I want an entire document filled with nothing but boons and invocations. Also, fix some of the old invocations.

[JumboWheat01]

Do you think the shaman should be its own class or that it could work as warlock subclass?

Considering how Favored Soul became a Sorcerer Variant, I suppose Spirit Shaman becoming a Warlock Variant would make some degree of sense.

Edit: Actually, now I'm trying to think of how to homebrew it, fluff and all, and I don't homebrew things. Will have to think on this some more now...

[Coffee_Dragon]

That or the Rogue UA stabs the Wizard UA to death and takes its spot.

"What? Oh, you mean this full spellcasting? I've always had that. Well, I don't see anyone's name on it, do you?"

[Naanomi]

Or a patron from Mechanus. That plane is neither in the "Lower" or "Upper" club of the "Outer" ones, so it is available.

That reminds me of the Sorcerer-King patron from 4e Dark Sun.
I don't see Modron or Slaad (or more broadly Law and Chaos) as 'mortal interfering' as Good/Evil; they seem less likely to be patrons to warlocks to me

Templar might be better represented by a 'Oath of the Sorcerer King' Paladin in 5e though

[xyianth]

What I think a warlock UA needs to address:

Rebalance the different pact options, tome is currently overshadowing the others by a large margin.
Rebalance the invocations, every warlock takes the same 5-6 invocations and only varies the last 2-3 because all the remaining ones are equally bad.
Remove the confusion between undying patron and undying light patron, call the positive energy one something else please.
Add a real capstone ability please, there is literally no incentive to play a single-classed warlock in a high level game.
Add new patron options: vampire lord/lady, titan, celestial, shadowfell, etc...
What I actually expect the UA warlock will contain:

A severely weakened undying light patron
A fire themed patron
A water/ice themed patron
A melee gish patron, possibly earth based
So I am a bit jaded...

[JellyPooga]

My problem with the cursy witchy voodoo type options is not that they can't add this, but that if they do add something powerful enough to be defining it will be overpowered

It's a possibility, I suppose, but what would make a voodoo/curse Patron any more unbalanced than anything else? I mean, take the highly probable (IMO) Genie Patron; about the most defining thing about Genies is Wish...doesn't get much more borked than that if they want to go whole-hog on theme. I can't see curses being any more powerful than that.


What I actually expect the UA warlock will contain:

A severely weakened undying light patron
A fire themed patron
A water/ice themed patron
A melee gish patron, possibly earth based

I doubt we'll see a fire based patron; Fiend already has that covered.

[Vogonjeltz]

Patrons: Ancestors, Nature Spirits/Voodoo Loa, Genies, Eladrin (or whatever they are calling CG outsiders anymore)

Pacts: A voodoo mask (focus on intimidation powers), a voodoo fetish (focused on enhancing hex/curses)

Although I like the inventiveness, I'm skeptical that they would ever make a patron or pact that almost explicitly revolved around each other.

Not everything works as a patron, it has to be something that's very powerful and has access to knowledge outside the bounds of your j average mortal.

Right now we have:

1) Arch Fiends

2) Fairy Queens

3) Outer Gods

4) Extremely Powerful Undead (Liches, Lich-like beings who have reached god-like levels of power)

Anything they add would need to be categorically as powerful and have some reason to be willing to give a mortal power.

Elementals? Most of the elemental princes are described in PotA as being more likely to slaughter their own cultists instead of talk with them. So that pretty much takes them out of the running.

Dragons? Are there any powerful enough?

Kraken? Same problem as Dragons, also knowledge problem.

Illithid/Aboleths? Maybe? This seems pretty villainous since they turn humanoids into cattle, also kind of retreads the Old One space, so probably not, also questionable power levels.

Pacts on their face seem unlikely, they've already hit the big 3 options: Melee, Spellcasting, Minion.

Invocations seem likely, there's always room for more right?

[Deleted]

Although I like the inventiveness, I'm skeptical that they would ever make a patron or pact that almost explicitly revolved around each other.

Not everything works as a patron, it has to be something that's very powerful and has access to knowledge outside the bounds of your j average mortal.

Right now we have:

1) Arch Fiends

2) Fairy Queens

3) Outer Gods

4) Extremely Powerful Undead (Liches, Lich-like beings who have reached god-like levels of power)

Anything they add would need to be categorically as powerful and have some reason to be willing to give a mortal power.

Elementals? Most of the elemental princes are described in PotA as being more likely to slaughter their own cultists instead of talk with them. So that pretty much takes them out of the running.

Dragons? Are there any powerful enough?

Kraken? Same problem as Dragons, also knowledge problem.

Illithid/Aboleths? Maybe? This seems pretty villainous since they turn humanoids into cattle, also kind of retreads the Old One space, so probably not, also questionable power levels.

Pacts on their face seem unlikely, they've already hit the big 3 options: Melee, Spellcasting, Minion.

Invocations seem likely, there's always room for more right?

Ancient Owl-Bear Wizard from 1e/2e that has been hiding out beyond the reaches of the all the spellplague or whatever stuff that caused edition changes. Once he created the Owl Bears, he decided to turn himself into one... Because it looked cool.

Now he is getting ready to return to the material plane but needs some help.

This Owl Bear Wizard could probably pass as a god.

[Naanomi]

Although I like the inventiveness, I'm skeptical that they would ever make a patron or pact that almost explicitly revolved around each other.

Not everything works as a patron, it has to be something that's very powerful and has access to knowledge outside the bounds of your j average mortal

I was just naming things in ways to let people know what I'm talking about, not trying to link patrons to boones.

Nature spirits (in the style of pop-culture voodoo loa)

Masks (in the style of pop-culture witch-doctor/tiki masks) and fetishes (in the style of pop-cultured totems/shrunken heads/voodoo dolls). As separate concepts

Also, Genie 'I wish for magic powers' style Pact seems to be pretty obvious to me

[Herobizkit]

How about a Blood Warlock? Like... say... someone who believes in the power of Self?

Like... say... someone who follows the Blood of Vol...? ^_^

[Millstone85]

Elementals? Most of the elemental princes are described in PotA as being more likely to slaughter their own cultists instead of talk with them. So that pretty much takes them out of the running.I haven't read PotA but surely there are other primordials than the princes of elemental evil? In 4e at least, having one as a patron was a thing.

But genies would probably be funnier.


Like... say... someone who follows the Blood of Vol...? ^_^The lich-queen Vol is given by SCAG as an example of the Undying.

[skaddix]

What I think a warlock UA needs to address:

Rebalance the different pact options, tome is currently overshadowing the others by a large margin.
Rebalance the invocations, every warlock takes the same 5-6 invocations and only varies the last 2-3 because all the remaining ones are equally bad.
Remove the confusion between undying patron and undying light patron, call the positive energy one something else please.
Add a real capstone ability please, there is literally no incentive to play a single-classed warlock in a high level game.
Add new patron options: vampire lord/lady, titan, celestial, shadowfell, etc...
What I actually expect the UA warlock will contain:

A severely weakened undying light patron
A fire themed patron
A water/ice themed patron
A melee gish patron, possibly earth based
So I am a bit jaded...

Yeah Tome is the King. Blade is worthless even as Flavor its not great. Familiar is better for Flavor put still crap compared to tome.

Yeah Warlock is primary use is dipping for cheap and easy eldritch blast spam. Better then Arrows and really any ranged option that isn't a higher level spell.

The Lack Of Capstone makes it easy to dip you lose zero for the most part.

[Deleted]

Yeah Tome is the King. Blade is worthless even as Flavor its not great. Familiar is better for Flavor put still crap compared to tome.

Yeah Warlock is primary use is dipping for cheap and easy eldritch blast spam. Better then Arrows and really any ranged option that isn't a higher level spell.

The Lack Of Capstone makes it easy to dip you lose zero for the most part.

Blade keeps up with damage and is very popular in actual play. Sadly you are typically stuck MC if you want to go STR but dexlocks work fine.

Bladelock is far from worthless lol.

[jas61292]

I think it is important to look at this from the perspective of the patrons, not the theme. Every published warlock patron covers a general archetype of patrons, but not overly specific. Concepts that people have mentioned that rely on specific creatures, like "kraken" are far too specific for anything that will eventually see publication, while something that is more about a concept than a patron, like "water themed" are probably too general. Since patrons are all super powerful creatures, I think some of the more likely ones are Celestial and Genie. I could also see some sort of "spirits" patron, which would be a bit more general than the others, but covers a wide swath of character archetypes that really can't be done with anything more specific.

Anything else though I feel would overlap too much with what we have, or not really fit in with the sorcerer. That's not to say UA won't have them. UA is often filled with dumb and unfitting things. But I don't think anything outside these few things really has any chance at publication, in the long run.

[Vogonjeltz]

I haven't read PotA but surely there are other primordials than the princes of elemental evil? In 4e at least, having one as a patron was a thing.

But genies would probably be funnier.

The lich-queen Vol is given by SCAG as an example of the Undying.

According to the book they all despise the world of living things (PotA 214)

[Naanomi]

According to the book they all despise the world of living things (PotA 214)
Historically there are Princes of Elemental Good as well, but in general elementals are too disaffected to be good Patrons... which is why I favor Genies. Besides 'I wish for powerful magic' is pretty classic right?

[jas61292]

Historically there are Princes of Elemental Good as well, but in general elementals are too disaffected to be good Patrons... which is why I favor Genies. Besides 'I wish for powerful magic' is pretty classic right?

The issue I have with Genies is, well, exactly what you just said. The classic example is wishing for magic, but, that doesn't really fit a warlock. Their magic is from a pact, not a wish. The patron is getting something out of a warlock's pact, not just the warlock. And I don't really see that in the classic genie example. To me, the "wish for magic" idea fits a sorcerer much better than a warlock.

At the same time though, as far as power level and creature type, genies are a perfect fit. It would just feel weird.

[xyianth]

Blade keeps up with damage and is very popular in actual play. Sadly you are typically stuck MC if you want to go STR but dexlocks work fine.

Bladelock is far from worthless lol.

Err... say what? How do you figure it keeps up in damage? It barely keeps up with tome in the area of melee damage:
dexlock: 1d8(rapier)+5(dex)+5(lifedrinker) x2 is at best 29 average damage. (and I am not even accounting for accuracy here, nor the fact that you need dex and cha at 20 for this)
tomelock: 1d8+5(shillelagh)+3d8(booming blade) is 22 average damage, with an extra 4d8(~18) if the enemy moves.
any warlock eldritch blast: 4d10+20(agonizing) is 42 average damage.

Even if you meant it keeps up at lower levels:
@5: blade gets 2x 1d8+4 attacks (17 avg); tome gets a 2d8+4 with a chance at an extra 2d8 in melee (13 + 9 avg); eldritch blast is 2d10+8 (19 avg)
@12: blade gets 2x 1d8+10 attacks (29 avg); tome gets a 3d8+5 with a chance at an extra 3d8 in melee (17.5 + 13.5 avg); eldritch blast is 3d10+15 (31.5 avg)

Note: I am intentionally leaving hex out of the equation here. It doesn't help the blade pact enough to matter since eldritch blast spam gets better use out of it and is less likely to lose concentration on it as well. I'm trying to stack the deck in blade pact's favor here by assuming 100% accuracy, no crits, and 20 dexterity and charisma. Even with the deck stacked, it doesn't win.

When it comes to damage dealing, choosing to go bladelock is choosing to be less effective than an unoptimized warlock is accidentally. Now, if you are choosing to be a bladelock for other reasons, like flavor or theme or something then great.

Personally, I think blade pact is the absolute worst pact option available to a warlock, below even the star pact presented in UA. Not because it is weak, but because you need to multiclass to actually get anything useful out of it; which if you are already multiclassing there are far better options for a melee gish type character. All the other pact options provide unique benefits without any need to multiclass. The unique benefit of blade pact is: congratulations you are now MAD as hell to do mediocre damage! woot!

If I've somehow missed something that allows blade pact warlocks to keep up with the damage of eldritch blast spam or booming blade shillelaghs from a tome pact user, please tell me. I'd love to be wrong here.

[Arkhios]

This might be a bit far-fetched, but I wouldn't be surprised if (or, in fact, I hope) there were Genie Patrons, for all four prime elemental types: Air (Djinni), Earth (Dao), Fire (Efreeti), and Water (Marid).

A few more Pacts would be welcome as well. Maybe a revision to the Star-whatever-it-was and something new.

[jaappleton]

This might be a bit far-fetched, but I wouldn't be surprised if (or, in fact, I hope) there were Genie Patrons, for all four prime elemental types: Air (Djinni), Earth (Dao), Fire (Efreeti), and Water (Marid).

A few more Pacts would be welcome as well. Maybe a revision to the Star-whatever-it-was and something new.

The time for that would've been the Princes of the Apocalypse storyline. I mean, I'm all for it, but they had the perfect opportunity awhile ago.

[Asmotherion]

An other thing I'd like to see would be the Eberon "Dragon Below" Patron.

Also, Pact of the Armor and an Invocation to add Cha to your AC seems cool as well.

Finally, bringing back the Dread Necromancer from 3.5 with a Necromancy themed Pact and a Limited Lichdom capstone (obviously no legendary or lair actions allowed and everything is calculated with the Character's statistics including proficiency bonuses) would both be very thematic and give more motivation to optimisers not to multi Sorlock.

(My favorite build is the Sorlock, I just wish there were more options so that it wouldn't be like a default option)

The issue I have with Genies is, well, exactly what you just said. The classic example is wishing for magic, but, that doesn't really fit a warlock. Their magic is from a pact, not a wish. The patron is getting something out of a warlock's pact, not just the warlock. And I don't really see that in the classic genie example. To me, the "wish for magic" idea fits a sorcerer much better than a warlock.

At the same time though, as far as power level and creature type, genies are a perfect fit. It would just feel weird.

Actually, genies are always happy to have more slaves lore wise (though, slaves mean different things from elemental plane to plane) and some (especially marids) are known to change the literal meaning of words to fit their needs. So, basically "I will give you powerfull magic as long as you do what I ask you" is a perfect example of a warlock

[Syll]

I would be just, beyond happy if they included a Warlock base class variant that worked off of long rests, instead of short rests.

[Deleted]

Err... say what? How do you figure it keeps up in damage? It barely keeps up with tome in the area of melee damage:
dexlock: 1d8(rapier)+5(dex)+5(lifedrinker) x2 is at best 29 average damage. (and I am not even accounting for accuracy here, nor the fact that you need dex and cha at 20 for this)
tomelock: 1d8+5(shillelagh)+3d8(booming blade) is 22 average damage, with an extra 4d8(~18) if the enemy moves.
any warlock eldritch blast: 4d10+20(agonizing) is 42 average damage.

Even if you meant it keeps up at lower levels:
@5: blade gets 2x 1d8+4 attacks (17 avg); tome gets a 2d8+4 with a chance at an extra 2d8 in melee (13 + 9 avg); eldritch blast is 2d10+8 (19 avg)
@12: blade gets 2x 1d8+10 attacks (29 avg); tome gets a 3d8+5 with a chance at an extra 3d8 in melee (17.5 + 13.5 avg); eldritch blast is 3d10+15 (31.5 avg)

Note: I am intentionally leaving hex out of the equation here. It doesn't help the blade pact enough to matter since eldritch blast spam gets better use out of it and is less likely to lose concentration on it as well. I'm trying to stack the deck in blade pact's favor here by assuming 100% accuracy, no crits, and 20 dexterity and charisma. Even with the deck stacked, it doesn't win.

When it comes to damage dealing, choosing to go bladelock is choosing to be less effective than an unoptimized warlock is accidentally. Now, if you are choosing to be a bladelock for other reasons, like flavor or theme or something then great.

Personally, I think blade pact is the absolute worst pact option available to a warlock, below even the star pact presented in UA. Not because it is weak, but because you need to multiclass to actually get anything useful out of it; which if you are already multiclassing there are far better options for a melee gish type character. All the other pact options provide unique benefits without any need to multiclass. The unique benefit of blade pact is: congratulations you are now MAD as hell to do mediocre damage! woot!

If I've somehow missed something that allows blade pact warlocks to keep up with the damage of eldritch blast spam or booming blade shillelaghs from a tome pact user, please tell me. I'd love to be wrong here.

Hex isn't worth it? That's 3d6 extra damage (twf or polearm)

Also, I prefer the strength variant with polearm master. If we optimize others we should optimize the warlock. The dex build can work too, you don't have to do the most damage, just enough to keep up with the game and the Warlock is doing at-will damage.

Fiend (temp HP cha + level... 17 temp hp when you kill a threat)
Not even with max stats...

@12: (1d10 + 4 (Str) + 4 (lifedrinker) + 1d6 (hex)) x2 = 34
1d4 + 4 (str) + 4 (lifedrinker) + 1d6 = 14

= 48 damage

If you go twf and dex (twf feat, two rapiers one is a pact weapon)

@12: 1d8 + 4 (dex) + 4 (lifedrinker) + 1d6 (hex) ) x2 = 32
1d8 + 4 (dex) + 1d6 (hex) = 12

= 44 damage

All while also having a ranged option! You are a fantastic switch hitter.


====


I would be just, beyond happy if they included a Warlock base class variant that worked off of long rests, instead of short rests.

http://www.5esrd.com/classes/sorcerer/

[xyianth]

Hex isn't worth it? That's 3d6 extra damage (twf or polearm)

I didn't include it because you get the same benefit on eldritch blast, which is what tome users focus on. If you want to include it, it just inflates both sides of the comparison by the same amount.


Also, I prefer the strength variant with polearm master. If we optimize others we should optimize the warlock. The dex build can work too, you don't have to do the most damage, just enough to keep up with the game and the Warlock is doing at-will damage.

Fair enough, though I suspect there is some handwaving going on here. The single classed strength variant with polearm master and 18 str/cha is going to have some seriously terrible AC, or at the very list some other crippling weakness in one or more of the other stats. As you mentioned before, the strength focus really needs a multiclass to fix the armor issue.


Fiend (temp HP cha + level... 17 temp hp when you kill a threat)
Not even with max stats...

Well, 16 temp hp if you are working with an 18 charisma, but that's a minor issue. And patron has literally nothing to do with pact... tomes can be fiend too and dropping targets can be done from range.


@12: (1d10 + 4 (Str) + 4 (lifedrinker) + 1d6 (hex)) x2 = 34
1d4 + 4 (str) + 4 (lifedrinker) + 1d6 = 14

= 48 damage

If you go twf and dex (twf feat, two rapiers one is a pact weapon)

@12: 1d8 + 4 (dex) + 4 (lifedrinker) + 1d6 (hex) ) x2 = 32
1d8 + 4 (dex) + 1d6 (hex) = 12

= 44 damage

All while also having a ranged option! You are a fantastic switch hitter.

I admit I didn't account for feats in my previous calculation. They certainly help blade pact users significantly. I did a quick calculation between eldritch blasts with a 20 charisma at level 12 and the strength build you listed adjusting them for accuracy and crit chance vs an AC 18 opponent. The strength variant does about ~0.89 more DPR than the eldritch blast. So the difference between blade and tome is actually not as large as I expected at 12th level. It is unfortunate that there is no further scaling for blade pact users at 17, or they might remain ahead. I still don't like the blade pact, but I will at least admit that when optimized they can indeed keep up damage wise. Thanks for showing my error.

It gets a little more tricky if you try and factor in opportunity attacks, the warcaster feat makes those favor eldritch blast users. But, then again, it isn't like blade pact users can't also do the same thing.

[Syll]

http://www.5esrd.com/classes/sorcerer/

If Favored Soul let me pick off the Warlock spell list instead of Cleric, that would help; since it doesn't...

[Deleted]

I didn't include it because you get the same benefit on eldritch blast, which is what tome users focus on. If you want to include it, it just inflates both sides of the comparison by the same amount.



Fair enough, though I suspect there is some handwaving going on here. The single classed strength variant with polearm master and 18 str/cha is going to have some seriously terrible AC, or at the very list some other crippling weakness in one or more of the other stats. As you mentioned before, the strength focus really needs a multiclass to fix the armor issue.



Well, 16 temp hp if you are working with an 18 charisma, but that's a minor issue. And patron has literally nothing to do with pact... tomes can be fiend too and dropping targets can be done from range.



I admit I didn't account for feats in my previous calculation. They certainly help blade pact users significantly. I did a quick calculation between eldritch blasts with a 20 charisma at level 12 and the strength build you listed adjusting them for accuracy and crit chance vs an AC 18 opponent. The strength variant does about ~0.89 more DPR than the eldritch blast. So the difference between blade and tome is actually not as large as I expected at 12th level. It is unfortunate that there is no further scaling for blade pact users at 17, or they might remain ahead. I still don't like the blade pact, but I will at least admit that when optimized they can indeed keep up damage wise. Thanks for showing my error.

It gets a little more tricky if you try and factor in opportunity attacks, the warcaster feat makes those favor eldritch blast users. But, then again, it isn't like blade pact users can't also do the same thing.

I used feats because, when talking about dpr, everyone uses feats.

My point isn't that Blade > Eldritch Blast. So it isn't about comparing those two. The point is that you can reliably go blade and your damage stays on par (or sometimes goes past) with what the game expects.

As long as you aren't a waste of space it doesn't matter how much better one build is than another.

On opportunity attacks, I typically just ignore them, the Rogue and Paladins are the king of those and there isn't much anyone can do about it. Warlocks would be a bit better than Fighters but they happen so rarely that you could remove them from the game and people wouldn't notice (played a roll20 game where it was replaced with disadvantage on your next attack or you gave a creature advantage on their next save against your spells... Actually quite fun).



For the Strength Based Warlock... Mountain Dwarf is an amazing race :p, but yeah multiclassing is easiest.

[TripleD]

For people wanting the "patron who's not a patron" (like the "screw everything Paladin") how about yourself?

The Apparition of Destiny
A vision of your future self, clad in rare artifacts and powerful magics, appears before you and speaks of the incredible destiny waiting for you. A destiny they are here to ensure happens even better than it did the first time by lending you some of their power. Do you follow their advice? Do you reject destiny and use the power granted to you for another purpose? Your fate is in your hands.

Before anyone points it out, yes I did steal this idea from Gargoyles.

It even leads into a new boon.

Pact of the Shield
Not sure how the mechanics would work, but it's a defensive oriented boon that focuses on negating damage and granting temporary hp. Would need to be tweaked carefully to avoid overshadowing the abjuration wizard.

It's fits thematically with the Apparition of Destiny since, more than anything your future self wants to keep you alive, but it's also flexible enough to work with other patrons.

[Millstone85]

If Favored Soul let me pick off the Warlock spell list instead of Cleric, that would help; since it doesn't...As I said in other threads, it would make a lot of sense for sorcerers to be descended from warlocks. Maybe exposure to otherworldly magic changed a warlock's body down to the germ cells. Maybe a warlock performed a profane ritual to bear or sire a spawn of their patron. Maybe a warlock just slept with the beautiful fairy queen, handsome devil or tєภtคςlє๔ ๒l๏๒.

That could be a great Favored-Soul-like sorcerous origin.


For people wanting the "patron who's not a patron" (like the "screw everything Paladin") how about yourself?

The Apparition of Destiny
A vision of your future self, clad in rare artifacts and powerful magics, appears before you and speaks of the incredible destiny waiting for you. A destiny they are here to ensure happens even better than it did the first time by lending you some of their power. Do you follow their advice? Do you reject destiny and use the power granted to you for another purpose? Your fate is in your hands.

Before anyone points it out, yes I did steal this idea from Gargoyles.I haven't watched Gargoyles but I imagine future-you wouldn't let you reject destiny so easily. It might not be such a great screw-everything warlock.

[Arkhios]

Re-reading the title I just realized that it could be awesome if you could say: "Winter is coming".

Seriously though, a wintry patron. Maybe something akin to a Winter Witch.

I realize that it's probably easy to reflavor as Archfey patron, but one can hope, right?

[Millstone85]

Re-reading the title I just realized that it could be awesome if you could say: "Winter is coming".

Seriously though, a wintry patron. Maybe something akin to a Winter Witch.

I realize that it's probably easy to reflavor as Archfey patron, but one can hope, right?SCAG has already provided a great illustration.https://media.wizards.com/2015/images/dnd/articles/SCAGInterview_Image3.jpg
A wintry sorcerous origin would be cool too.http://i.imgur.com/r06Otgi.png

[Vaz]

Re-reading the title I just realized that it could be awesome if you could say: "Winter is coming".

Seriously though, a wintry patron. Maybe something akin to a Winter Witch.

I realize that it's probably easy to reflavor as Archfey patron, but one can hope, right?

Wendigo? Endless insane hunger? Spells would probably need to be improved though. And Wendigo's in 3.5 were Fey, but not of the Sidhe or Unseelie represented by Archfey.v

[tomato]

...Spells would probably need to be improved though.

Dear god yes. More, and more competitive cold spells would be nice. I mean, I understand that they don't really want a cold spell to be better at area damage than Fireball, but Snilloc's Snowball Swarm is a joke. It's not even competitive with Shatter!

Whoever writes these needs to try actually building the character that will use them and test them comparatively to a character using other options, such as fire, or even thunder.

[vincegetorix]

I think a pact of the Leviathan could be a possibility that gathers the Kraken, the Tarasque and other gigantic primordial things like the World Serpent or real ancient Dragons in its theme.

[GandalfTheWhite]

I think a pact of the Leviathan could be a possibility that gathers the Kraken, the Tarasque and other gigantic primordial things like the World Serpent or real ancient Dragons in its theme.

Honestly dragons should be their own Patron, not folded in with a bunch of other monsters.

[Wilkomorph]

I would love a reflavor of the Binder class from 3.5e Tome of Magic as a Warlock patron (or multiple patrons in one lol),

[JellyPooga]

I think a pact of the Leviathan could be a possibility that gathers the Kraken, the Tarasque and other gigantic primordial things like the World Serpent or real ancient Dragons in its theme.

Ooh, I kinda like this idea and it's as good a place as any to shove Dragons in*. The notion thematically overlaps Great Old Ones to an extent, but can focus more on physical aspects than mental. I think there's definitely potential there.

*(seriously, Dragons really don't need their own special snowflake spot among the other Patrons...Sorcerers have the "hmm, let's pick a dragon colour" thing covered; it's done, it's dusted, move along)

[Joe the Rat]

Behemoth Patron? Colossus? Kaiju?


Re-reading the title I just realized that it could be awesome if you could say: "Winter is coming".

Seriously though, a wintry patron. Maybe something akin to a Winter Witch.

I realize that it's probably easy to reflavor as Archfey patron, but one can hope, right?This would be pretty cool.
White Walker Patron :smallbiggrin:

[Talionis]

What is most needed is more invocations.

Pact of the Blade could use a Bone Armor invocation or an improved Mage Armor invocation to reduce the need to multiclass for armor.

Totally agree that Pact of Tome could get a spell off any list of level five or less added to their spells known as an invocation.

Pact of the Chain could use an invocation that protects its Familiar and makes the familiar more survivable.

But we could also use a lot more low level spells turned into invocations to get options. Mechanically they fill the roll full casters use their low level slots on.

Would getting at will Shield spell at 15 be too powerful? Wizard gets that at 18?

[MrStabby]

What is most needed is more invocations.

Pact of the Blade could use a Bone Armor invocation or an improved Mage Armor invocation to reduce the need to multiclass for armor.

Totally agree that Pact of Tome could get a spell off any list of level five or less added to their spells known as an invocation.

Pact of the Chain could use an invocation that protects its Familiar and makes the familiar more survivable.

But we could also use a lot more low level spells turned into invocations to get options. Mechanically they fill the roll full casters use their low level slots on.

Would getting at will Shield spell at 15 be too powerful? Wizard gets that at 18?

Any spell low level for free as an invocation would be a powerful boost, a very powerful boost. I might be tempted to make the Warlock select one from their pact list - it is a smaller list for each Warlock so less open to abuse whilst at the same time it strongly strengthens the theme for each warlock.

[Deleted]

Any spell low level for free as an invocation would be a powerful boost, a very powerful boost. I might be tempted to make the Warlock select one from their pact list - it is a smaller list for each Warlock so less open to abuse whilst at the same time it strongly strengthens the theme for each warlock.

At the very least, the spells that they gain by invocation shouldn't ve limited per long rest. They use up your Warlock slots so they should come back with a short rest.

[Naanomi]

Totally agree that Pact of Tome could get a spell off any list of level five or less added to their spells known as an invocation.

A few spells are dangerous for balance this way... animate dead primarily

[Deleted]

A few spells are dangerous for balance this way... animate dead primarily

Yeah, because balance is something we need to worry about :smallbiggrin:

That ship sailed loooooong ago.

[Sir cryosin]

Am I the only one thinking they are going to pull what they did to ranger and rogue. But this time for warlock and wizard.

[Joe the Rat]

So I've been doing a little thinking and over-analyzing. While an invocation that adds to spells known is probably not an issue re: other classes, it does become an issue re: other invocations.
Excepting the 1st level at-wills (I'll get to that in a bit), everything that allows a warlock to access an outside spell at a comparable level does so expending a spell slot, and once per long rest. bane, polymorph, slow, conjure elementals... you can get these at the same levels as spellcasters, but you burn a slot once a day to do it. Having open access to any spell as a spell known makes the other invocations poorer choices, and makes the tome pact the must-have, and that invocation a must-have for tome pacts. Hello thirsting blade to bookworms.

The at will invocations available at 1st - armor of shadows, beast speech, etc. are all defensive, divination (internal effects), or illusory (one of which is self only). All of the offensive and mobility effects either take slots, or come at a much higher level.

We have one cast-a-spell invocation that is pact-restricted: Chains of Carceri. It's a 1/long rest, but does not require a spell slot. On the other hand, it comes online 6 levels after you could add it to your known spells, and targets a restricted set of creatures. Limited late access and applicability, but fewer resources expended.

Balance-wise, any spell, with a slot, once per long rest, restricted to tome is getting close to balance. Being able to change the spell on a long rest may require additional limitations - opportunity cost (cannot take with Ancient Secrets), or lesser access (a fixed cap of 3rd or lower, or has to be below your highest possible spell level for pact magic).



Am I the only one thinking they are going to pull what they did to ranger and rogue. But this time for warlock and wizard.
Wizards and Patrons? What is this, Dungeon Crawl Classics?

[Deleted]

Am I the only one thinking they are going to pull what they did to ranger and rogue. But this time for warlock and wizard.

I feel like Warlock and Cleric is more likely.

I mean... Really the fluff of the two aren't all that different. They are both classes that give up their soul in order to gain abilities that others don't have. Warlocks seem a bit disorganized but still the base is there.

Call the cleric with Warlock casting the Invoker...

[MrStabby]

Am I the only one thinking they are going to pull what they did to ranger and rogue. But this time for warlock and wizard.

Hmm. This would hurt a little, but i wouldn't put it beyond all likelyhood.

There are enough wizard archetypes at the moment - although only the bladesinger is really different. It would be nice to see more in that vein - some actually different archetypes beyond magic schools.

Warlocks could use a few more options though... it would be nice if there were more options that were distinct and help you play a few more styles.

[Belac93]

A Pact of the Titan, where you get to choose from creatures with the titan subtype (krakens, tarresques, that sort of things). Made similar to the totem warrior barbarian.

A return of the Binder, with a list of vestiges. Vestige pact where you get to steal other class abilities would be cool.

A Hag Pact where you get to choose abilities based on what sort of hag you made a deal with (sea, night, green, winter).

A new pact boon or two, maybe a 'cloak' based around stealth, and something that lets you cast more spells (something like 'you can store a single spell with a level equal to your proficiency bonus which you may then cast at a later date for free').

More invocations that grant cool at-will abilities, and some to make pact of the blade more powerful without multiclassing (I always feel like I'm missing out on my full potential and that I would be better served just dipping warlock as a fighter, which sucks).

[JellyPooga]

The at will invocations available at 1st - armor of shadows, beast speech, etc. are all defensive, divination (internal effects), or illusory (one of which is self only). All of the offensive and mobility effects either take slots, or come at a much higher level.

Hmm...if we do get more Invocations of the "[spell] at-will" variety, here's some thoughts on the kind of things we might get;

1st lvl.
Feather Fall
Unseen Servant (minimum 5th level)

2nd lvl.
Barkskin (possible minimum 5th or higher)
Locate Object (minimum...9th?)
Pass Without Trace (minimum 15th level)
Spider Climb (minimum 9th level, to compete with Levitate and Jump)

...and that's about all I see being in the "at-will" category, really. Maybe a few other outliers, like Sanctuary maybe, but only after 15th. I can see a fair few for the "using a Pact Magic slot 1/day" category, like Animal Friendship and other Conjure X spells, but I don't see the "at-will" options expanding too much.

[TentacleSurpris]

I'd like to see an Eastern-themed warlock that makes a pact with his or her ancestors. (I made one for a DMsguild book that I did a while back).

An ancestor patron warlock would make a deal with the ancestors to avenge their deaths, fulfill a karmic debt to allow them to reincarnate or go to heaven, or continue their schemes. It's something related to the dead that isn't undead/negative energy based, it's related to the afterlife but not the gods, so it doesn't step on the cleric's toes.

Remember the movie Mulan, where the ghosts of her ancestors give her a pseudodragon familiar? Like that.

In many Asian countries, honoring one's ancestors is EVERYTHING, but you don't see that in DND. Like in Vietnam, the front room of the house is the shrine room, and the house has 3 front doors, the middle door is never used, it is meant to be used by the ancestor spirits.

[DracoKnight]

I'd like to see an Eastern-themed warlock that makes a pact with his or her ancestors. (I made one for a DMsguild book that I did a while back).

An ancestor patron warlock would make a deal with the ancestors to avenge their deaths, fulfill a karmic debt to allow them to reincarnate or go to heaven, or continue their schemes. It's something related to the dead that isn't undead/negative energy based, it's related to the afterlife but not the gods, so it doesn't step on the cleric's toes.

Remember the movie Mulan, where the ghosts of her ancestors give her a pseudodragon familiar? Like that.

In many Asian countries, honoring one's ancestors is EVERYTHING, but you don't see that in DND. Like in Vietnam, the front room of the house is the shrine room, and the house has 3 front doors, the middle door is never used, it is meant to be used by the ancestor spirits.

Could you PM me a link to your book? I would love to read what you wrote, and maybe allow it for my players, after reading your thoughts on why it should be a Patron! :smallbiggrin:

[Spiritchaser]

I'd like to see an Eastern-themed warlock that makes a pact with his or her ancestors. (I made one for a DMsguild book that I did a while back).

An ancestor patron warlock would make a deal with the ancestors to avenge their deaths, fulfill a karmic debt to allow them to reincarnate or go to heaven, or continue their schemes. It's something related to the dead that isn't undead/negative energy based, it's related to the afterlife but not the gods, so it doesn't step on the cleric's toes.

Remember the movie Mulan, where the ghosts of her ancestors give her a pseudodragon familiar? Like that.


This is brilliant... I've no idea how to use it but... Cool, different...

Lots of work sorting out all those dead npcs though

[Talionis]

Any spell low level for free as an invocation would be a powerful boost, a very powerful boost. I might be tempted to make the Warlock select one from their pact list - it is a smaller list for each Warlock so less open to abuse whilst at the same time it strongly strengthens the theme for each warlock.

I wasn't clear enough on the suggestion. I was meaning to suggest they learn any one spell from any spell list of less than sixth level and can cast it from their Warlock slots. Not just spam it. Something similar to Bards Spell Mysteries.

[Naanomi]

I wasn't clear enough on the suggestion. I was meaning to suggest they learn any one spell from any spell list of less than sixth level and can cast it from their Warlock slots. Not just spam it. Something similar to Bards Spell Mysteries.
Animate dead... everyone takes a long rest... not me, I take seven short rests and now look at my army!

[Lawful Good]

Am I the only one thinking they are going to pull what they did to ranger and rogue. But this time for warlock and wizard.
Nah, they like their wizards :smalltongue:



Animate dead... everyone takes a long rest... not me, I take seven short rests and now look at my army!

AARRGH I wish this was a limited patron feature but WotC is too scared to give them this much power

[longshotist]

personally, i miss the Star-pact. I know GOO is essentially that but i liked all the Doctor Strange-esque spell names and whatnot.

[DracoKnight]

*stands solemnly at the top of a wall*

"Warlock is coming."


Tomorrow's the day! :smallbiggrin:

[Telwar]

Nah, they like their wizards :smalltongue:

Well, that's why they'd do it. 3-4 subclasses for wizard ("they're undersupported, we wanted you to have more options") and one for warlock.

[DracoKnight]

Well, that's why they'd do it. 3-4 subclasses for wizard ("they're undersupported, we wanted you to have more options") and one for warlock.

They better not f*cking do this.

[Millstone85]

personally, i miss the Star-pact. I know GOO is essentially that but i liked all the Doctor Strange-esque spell names and whatnot.The thing I miss from the star pact is the radiant damage. Well, you technically didn't need the star pact, except for the dire radiance at-will power, but it was the reason for such warlock powers to exist.

Undying Light promises radiant damage too, except there is nothing shocking about that patron providing this type of power.

[Belac93]

Best case scenario: well-thought out, nicely balanced, 3-4 patrons (asked for things, like kraken, vestige, a better undead patron), 2-3 pacts (just nice stuff), 4-10 new invocations (more at-will spells and undead), and a new spell (because why not). Everyone rejoices, and the funnest class in the game becomes twice as awesome.

Worst case: They skip warlock because of family day, and then include an 'archmage patron' in the wizard UA next week.

Don't be the family guy, Wizards.

Be the evil guy.

[MrStabby]

Probably a bit of a stretch, but I wouldn't mind seeing some other pacts based off other casting stats.

For example a variant fiend (Devil) pact where power isn't negotiated through charisma but through a detailed contract (Intelligence).

Pacts around forces of nature (like undying light) more based on wisdom than Charisma.

I feel that these could open up some new space.

[DracoKnight]

Probably a bit of a stretch, but I wouldn't mind seeing some other pacts based off other casting stats.

For example a variant fiend (Devil) pact where power isn't negotiated through charisma but through a detailed contract (Intelligence).

Pacts around forces of nature (like undying light) more based on wisdom than Charisma.

I feel that these could open up some new space.

I could see them doing this IF it was something along the lines of: "When you make your pact with your patron, you can choose to use Intelligence or Charisma as your Spellcasting Ability. Once you have chosen, you can't change your Spellcasting Ability."

[MrStabby]

I could see them doing this IF it was something along the lines of: "When you make your pact with your patron, you can choose to use Intelligence or Charisma as your Spellcasting Ability. Once you have chosen, you can't change your Spellcasting Ability."

I was thinking of it being patron specific - but a general rule could work as well.

I DM with something similar anyway - I let people pick a pact patron and it's style/features and build it up if they want something like it. It would be nice if I could persuade others to do it for the few games I get to play in!