Troublesome DM Rulings

[SilverStud]

Hey guys, I could really use some general (or specific, I'm not picky) advice on a situation that came up.

So a while back I organized a game on roll20, picking the party and hoping for a DM. One showed up (lucky us!), so we've been playing since then. Homebrew world, fighting elemental surges and fey beasts and stuff. For the most part, it's pretty fun! The party is good, and our characters generally get stuff done.

Now I said for the most part. That little bit that isn't fun comes directly from the DM himself. It started several sessions ago, when he hardcore railroaded us into starting the story. It was a frustrating affair where our party hothead beat some guy up, and it all ended with us having boom-braclets (blow up if we disobey orders) and being sent to kill a fey beast thing as a 'test.' I can kinda forgive that one though, because it usually takes a little railroading to get the story started, and if it was heavy-handed....? Eh, whatever.

But it doesn't end there.

As we have more sessions, it starts to feel like he doesn't want us to succeed. Every mission we go on has fog reducing sight to 15 feet (oh but that fey beast can like smell us at normal vision range or something), and knee-deep water reducing movement to 20 ft. (yes you read that right. It isn't difficult terrain, for some reason, it just reduces movement to 20 ft). That move restriction only seems to apply to us (oh the fey beast is too big for the SWAMP to matter, oh the cultists are attuned to elemental water). When we stop in the village to rest before heading back to the city to report on killing the beast, the Inn gets set on fire. Everyone in the Inn escapes except the party and a little girl (who I'm positive didn't exist until the paladin said he went looking for others in the blaze). We jump out a window just as the building collapses, only to find the ENTIRE TOWN disappointed that we didn't die. Apparently the ENTIRE TOWN hates us (no reason. first time in town, ever, and our creepy fiendlock didn't do his usual shenanigans) enough to burn down someone's establishment and leave a child to die with us. We then rid the town of their oppressive slaver dictators by assaulting the slaver's main base. Apparently "my base and leader are under attack" means "start hurting villages for no reason," because our assault "caused" the slavers throughout town to start killing indiscriminately. So the town still hates us, because they somehow figured out that the slavers attacked them in retribution for an ongoing attack????

Anyway, after that garbage we decide that "hey, we better report on our success with the fey beast so we DON'T GET OUR ARMS BLOWN OFF," but we're intercepted by the only person in the village who doesn't hate us. During the conversation, her background goes from "captain of the local guardsmen" (we asked specifically who she was) to "someone assigned by our (the party) boss to investigate the same things" to "high enough in the boss's organization to bribe us with removing the bracelets" as we keep insisting on traveling back to the city. Eventually we (the players, OOC) finally cave and just go with it.

So then we find ourselves in more knee-deep water and 15-foot-visibility fog! Yay! We're left to "explore" with little to no direction on where to go (despite the desperate railroading). We are required to pass an absurd amount of Survival checks to.... I dunno, actually. Accidentally wander in the right direction? None of our characters have Survival proficiency, and we don't have the resources to hire a guide. Eventually we stumble (literally) upon a flooded ruin thing. Seems cool, so we start exploring it (roll20 fog of war). We hear ominous sounds, so we go in stealthy.

He has us make stealth rolls pretty often, but it seems appropriate. Oh, the rolls are Normal. That'll be important in about three sentences. So we explore around, most of us moving quietly, our paladin staying behind because he doesn't want his armor to hurt our chances. My PC is sneaking around the wall, and another PC casts Invisibility on himself to make things easier. Invisible, he gets within eyesight of a huge monster (slaad), so of course the DM asks for a Stealth roll (makes sense, really). So this guy rolls with Advantage (because Invisible), only to be told "Nope, you make a normal roll"
Me: Why tho
DM: Because *really bad, uncertain excuses about the slaad not being able to see anyway*
Poor Sap who wanted advantage: But it says I have advantage because I'm invisible.
DM: *More bad excuses about hearing and vision*

That was our most recent session. It kinda brought all of my misgivings to a head. Myself and the other player talked about it OOC and decided to talk with the DM about it. We both voiced our problems and concerns, both honestly and civilly. I really really wanted to write a ton of expletives and "spit and bile," but I know that never helps. But despite our efforts, he is refusing to hear us out. He just says "I was gonna let him roll again, but you guys talked over me!" over and over. The problem with that is that the session went on after the incident, and even though we backed off and let him continue, the Invisible PC never got that extra roll.

Anyway, sorry for the rantiness of this explanation. But it is frustrating.

[MrFahrenheit]

Hey guys, I could really use some general (or specific, I'm not picky) advice on a situation that came up.

So a while back I organized a game on roll20, picking the party and hoping for a DM. One showed up (lucky us!), so we've been playing since then. Homebrew world, fighting elemental surges and fey beasts and stuff. For the most part, it's pretty fun! The party is good, and our characters generally get stuff done.

1. Now I said for the most part. That little bit that isn't fun comes directly from the DM himself. It started several sessions ago, when he hardcore railroaded us into starting the story. It was a frustrating affair where our party hothead beat some guy up, and it all ended with us having boom-braclets (blow up if we disobey orders) and being sent to kill a fey beast thing as a 'test.' I can kinda forgive that one though, because it usually takes a little railroading to get the story started, and if it was heavy-handed....? Eh, whatever.

But it doesn't end there.

2. As we have more sessions, it starts to feel like he doesn't want us to succeed. Every mission we go on has fog reducing sight to 15 feet (oh but that fey beast can like smell us at normal vision range or something), and knee-deep water reducing movement to 20 ft. (yes you read that right. It isn't difficult terrain, for some reason, it just reduces movement to 20 ft). That move restriction only seems to apply to us (oh the fey beast is too big for the SWAMP to matter, oh the cultists are attuned to elemental water). When we stop in the village to rest before heading back to the city to report on killing the beast, the Inn gets set on fire. Everyone in the Inn escapes except the party and a little girl (who I'm positive didn't exist until the paladin said he went looking for others in the blaze). We jump out a window just as the building collapses, only to find the ENTIRE TOWN disappointed that we didn't die. Apparently the ENTIRE TOWN hates us (no reason. first time in town, ever, and our creepy fiendlock didn't do his usual shenanigans) enough to burn down someone's establishment and leave a child to die with us. We then rid the town of their oppressive slaver dictators by assaulting the slaver's main base. Apparently "my base and leader are under attack" means "start hurting villages for no reason," because our assault "caused" the slavers throughout town to start killing indiscriminately. So the town still hates us, because they somehow figured out that the slavers attacked them in retribution for an ongoing attack????

3. Anyway, after that garbage we decide that "hey, we better report on our success with the fey beast so we DON'T GET OUR ARMS BLOWN OFF," but we're intercepted by the only person in the village who doesn't hate us. During the conversation, her background goes from "captain of the local guardsmen" (we asked specifically who she was) to "someone assigned by our (the party) boss to investigate the same things" to "high enough in the boss's organization to bribe us with removing the bracelets" as we keep insisting on traveling back to the city. Eventually we (the players, OOC) finally cave and just go with it.

4. So then we find ourselves in more knee-deep water and 15-foot-visibility fog! Yay! We're left to "explore" with little to no direction on where to go (despite the desperate railroading). We are required to pass an absurd amount of Survival checks to.... I dunno, actually. Accidentally wander in the right direction? None of our characters have Survival proficiency, and we don't have the resources to hire a guide. Eventually we stumble (literally) upon a flooded ruin thing. Seems cool, so we start exploring it (roll20 fog of war). We hear ominous sounds, so we go in stealthy.

5. He has us make stealth rolls pretty often, but it seems appropriate. Oh, the rolls are Normal. That'll be important in about three sentences. So we explore around, most of us moving quietly, our paladin staying behind because he doesn't want his armor to hurt our chances. My PC is sneaking around the wall, and another PC casts Invisibility on himself to make things easier. Invisible, he gets within eyesight of a huge monster (slaad), so of course the DM asks for a Stealth roll (makes sense, really). So this guy rolls with Advantage (because Invisible), only to be told "Nope, you make a normal roll"
Me: Why tho
DM: Because *really bad, uncertain excuses about the slaad not being able to see anyway*
Poor Sap who wanted advantage: But it says I have advantage because I'm invisible.
DM: *More bad excuses about hearing and vision*

That was our most recent session. It kinda brought all of my misgivings to a head. Myself and the other player talked about it OOC and decided to talk with the DM about it. We both voiced our problems and concerns, both honestly and civilly. I really really wanted to write a ton of expletives and "spit and bile," but I know that never helps. But despite our efforts, he is refusing to hear us out. He just says "I was gonna let him roll again, but you guys talked over me!" over and over. The problem with that is that the session went on after the incident, and even though we backed off and let him continue, the Invisible PC never got that extra roll.

Anyway, sorry for the rantiness of this explanation. But it is frustrating.

I added numbers to the quote above to more easily address what you've laid out (and mobile devices make splitting up quotes difficult).

1. I would've gone with a geas spell instead of Fallout-style slave apparatuses, but that's just me. As long as the majority of the party failed, those who succeeded could either leave (and roll new characters) or follow on anyhow. Definitely heavy handed the way this was done (your DM should've been able to figure out a different way to make you all care), but since you all didn't seem to mind, I won't dwell on it.

2. This definitely reminds me of GoT with the eastern slave cities, and the slaves who either fight the newcomers, or rebel only reluctantly (if they do so at all) until the defeat of their masters is guaranteed, as they're too afraid to rise up otherwise. Not sure if you've seen/read the series, but at one point, as slaver cities are being taken out, the leaders of the last one in line crucified a bunch of slave children along the road, at every mile marker, to make a point to the character in question. I wouldn't worry too much about the little girl, though. The DM threw the paladin a bone if he added her in impromptu. That's a silver lining, at least.

3. Poor planning on the DM's part. This could've all been wrapped together so much more neatly without the sudden rank shifts of the NPC. All three of those things are possible (NPC works for your boss as a lieutenant, and infiltrated the village leadership) but the reveal was executed terribly.

4. He should've used the "party roll" rules - everyone rolls survival once, and if one person succeeds, the party succeeds. If not, throw in a random encounter and THEN let you stumble into the ruins.

5. The original stealth roll when you entered the complex should've been opposed by the slaad's perception. Invisible PC should've gotten a re-roll when he cast the spell, and with advantage. Denying that is inexcusable, even if the slaad's got good hearing, as stealth doesn't just consider sight.

Hang in there.

[Matticusrex]

Invisibility does not grant advantage to stealth checks, it just causes checks that rely on sight to auto-fail against the stealthed target. Invisiblity also does not hide your position unless you are also using the hide action, so creatures in heavy fog would know each others positions in your situation but they would still roll their attacks with disadvantage if they are unable to actually see the target.

[mephnick]

A lot of newer (and some experienced) DMs confuse "running a game" with "telling a story " when story-telling is really only a small aspect of your job. Constantly changing game mechanics to justify your story means you didn't plan your game well or don't understand the system or both. Railroading that obviously (boom bracelets) means you don't trust your players to carry out your story or dont trust yourself to steer it in the direction you want to go organically. Unfortunately, most of this stuff gets worked out of your DMing style only through experience and growing confidence. I think there's a lot of pressure on newer DMs to always seem in control no matter what instead of being flexible and this causes a lot of the BadDM stories on here.

Hopefully he's open to positive reinforcement. After the session highlight the good things he did, like improvising an innocent for the paladin to save, rather than complaining about the bad stuff. If the campaign goes south I'd maybe provide some constructive criticism on the bad things he's doing and hope he takes it well. So far I don't think he's done anything unsalvagable and the campaign may improve as you all get more comfortable with each other.

[gfishfunk]

I would definitely not give advantage if the check relied on the creature's enhanced senses, such as smell, hearing, or ...uh....taste, I guess. Most of the time, though, I don't even bother with stealth checks for invisible PCs. "You are hidden," I tell them. Most of the time: there are some exceptions.

And yeah, its a little railroad-ish. Chances are that this is not the entire adventure, its just this area.

[SilverStud]

@Matticusrex Hmmmm well I looked it up. You are correct, Invisibility does not grant Advantage on checks. It does say you are "heavily obscured," and I've (in my own games) always ruled that meant advantage. However, RAW I am wrong, and I am prepared to admit that. It doesn't change the rest of the issues and inconsistency though.... :(

@gfishfunk Oh but it is the whole adventure. At least, the whole adventure for the last five sessions. This incident was just the "straw that broke the camel's back," so to speak. Also, slaads don't have any special senses like wolves or whatever.

[gfishfunk]

@gfishfunk Oh but it is the whole adventure. At least, the whole adventure for the last five sessions. This incident was just the "straw that broke the camel's back," so to speak. Also, slaads don't have any special senses like wolves or whatever.

Agreed with Slaads, just saying invisibility can be bypassed by other things. Just chatting.

That sucks that it is the whole adventure. I love having different environments, but you got to start at a fairly easy, open environment to start a baseline of the world and normalcy. Then, you can move to some place to show its different. IF everything is fog and muck and wading through water, its a one-trick annoying pony.