PF - Zombie Golems? RAW Discussion - aka Animate Dead Does Nothing

[unseenmage]

So, neither Animate Dead nor the Skeleton and Zombie templates exclude Constructs as an option. Closest method I can find to disqualify them (thanks iceifur) is that Constructs are immune to Necromancy effects.

Except Animate Dead's target line doesn't target a Construct, it target's a corpse. And ascribing Construct Traits to a Construct's corpse would seem to open a much bigger can of worms than just doing what the spell says to do.

Are undead templates RAW spelled out as Necromancy effects anywhere? Is there another angle I'm not seeing?

[unseenmage]

In our debate so far one of us argues that the Skeleton and Zombie templates are Necromancy effects because the Animate Dead spell is. And that the Animate Dead spell does nothing because it says to make a creature that doesn't exist, the basic stats for skeletons and zombies being a templated other creature.

I say that Animate Dead, being necromancy, is the cause while the template, being untyped, is the effect. They attest that this is akin to saying that Magic Missile is the evocation while the missile itself is untyped.
Which leads me to wonder, in 3.x there are spells that cast other spells namely Energy Transformation Field. Is Animate Dead (or similar) from an Energy Transformation Field a necromancy effect or not? How far back through cause and effect and cause and effect do we go before deciding a given effect's interaction with the Construct type's immunity to Necromancy?

[the_david]

Constructs aren't alive, so you can't kill them. You can destroy them, but that doesn't leave a corpse.

Warforged, on the other hand, are alive and can be turned into undead. (I think.)

[unseenmage]

Constructs aren't alive, so you can't kill them. You can destroy them, but that doesn't leave a corpse.

Warforged, on the other hand, are alive and can be turned into undead. (I think.)

Undead also are not alive but DO leave corpses as per Necrocraft requiring undead corpses for their creation.

In order to create a necrocraft, a spellcaster must use at least five undead creatures (or their corpses), all of which must be under the creator’s control, helpless, or slain. A larger undead or corpse can be used in place of two that are one size smaller. The creator must stitch, glue, or otherwise bind the parts together in the desired configuration, then cast animate dead and make whole to complete the construction (the material component cost of animate dead is 50 gp per Hit Die of the final necrocraft). The creator can’t create a necrocraft with more Hit Dice than her caster level. As with animate dead, the necrocraft is under the creator’s control when created. Note that creating a necrocraft requires casting a spell with the evil descriptor.
*used bold for emphasis

[meschlum]

You might get some material from the Type definitions:


Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.


A construct is an animated object or artificially created creature.

Add in the fact that both have non attribute scores for Constitution, it suggests that neither is alive in the common sense.

Plus, a dead body is a corpse, per the dictionary. a dead construct is a pile of masonry or scrap metal. Flesh Golems would be the case to watch - and they are explicitly made from parts of many corpses.

[unseenmage]

You might get some material from the Type definitions:


Add in the fact that both have non attribute scores for Constitution, it suggests that neither is alive in the common sense.

Plus, a dead body is a corpse, per the dictionary. a dead construct is a pile of masonry or scrap metal. Flesh Golems would be the case to watch - and they are explicitly made from parts of many corpses.


For PF another odd case is Mirror Men and Animated Objects of once-living corpses.

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see ... first off, references!

Animate Dead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animate-dead) to start. And, of course, the Skeleton (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/skeleton) and Zombie (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/zombie) templates. Undead Type (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Undead), Construcct Type (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Construct).


Animate Dead specifies a corpse as the target. Do we have an actual definition for that? This may or may not prevent animating a dead golem.
No specific requirement for "living" on the base creature mentioned in the template, just not undead. Inherited from 3.5, apparently.
Interesting. This doesn't stop it.
The types might... except that Pathfinder dropped the "never alive" line from the construct side of that equation. Theoretically, spells that affect living creatures might affect Pathfinder Constructs (if it's not covered by a different immunity, anyway)! Do we have a clear definition of "living" in Pathfinder? If that definition excludes constructs, then the undead type may exclude the trick under the "once living" clause.

[Psyren]

As I mentioned in the RAW thread, nothing about constructs suggests they can be dead or leave corpses.

This works for the Necrocraft because the undead creatures you used to make it had corpses to start with, because they were living creatures to start with.

If you could find a construct that specifically leaves a corpse that's great, but until then I don't think they are legal targets.

[unseenmage]

As I mentioned in the RAW thread, nothing about constructs suggests they can be dead or leave corpses.

This works for the Necrocraft because the undead creatures you used to make it had corpses to start with, because they were living creatures to start with.

If you could find a construct that specifically leaves a corpse that's great, but until then I don't think they are legal targets.

As mentioned above several Constructs are made of a single corpse. Animated Object corpse and Mirror Men to name a couple.

This coupled with Necrocraft's reference to undead leaving corpses would imply that 'destroyed' should be read as a synonym for 'dead', or even 'dead without the Dead condition'.


Additionally, dead necrocraft is biult from corpses. Just like a Flesh Golem. So we see that some destroyed undead can be corpses even though they are not formed from one contiguous originating corpse.
Which debunks the arguement that 'a destroyed undead leaves a corpse because it started as one, while a destroyed Construct just leaves a pile of materials.'

[Psyren]

As mentioned above several Constructs are made of a single corpse. Animated Object corpse and Mirror Men to name a couple.

Animated Object works because a corpse counts as an object. It has nothing to do with the actual corpse. This argument is like saying Animate Dead should work on boxes because Animate Objects works on a box.

Mirror Men aren't made from corpses - they are made from living creatures that are killed during the creation process. It's not like you can dig up a dead body and turn it into a Mirror Man. So this doesn't count either.

[unseenmage]

Animated Object works because a corpse counts as an object. It has nothing to do with the actual corpse. This argument is like saying Animate Dead should work on boxes because Animate Objects works on a box.

Mirror Men aren't made from corpses - they are made from living creatures that are killed during the creation process. It's not like you can dig up a dead body and turn it into a Mirror Man. So this doesn't count either.
My point is that they both leave a corpse when they're destroyed.

[KillianHawkeye]

Do we have a clear definition of "living" in Pathfinder? If that definition excludes constructs, then the undead type may exclude the trick under the "once living" clause.

It wasn't easy, but I found this gem under the rules for aiming a spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Aiming-a-Spell) (under the "Creatures" sub-heading):


Many spells affect "living creatures," which means all creatures other than constructs and undead.

[Psyren]

My point is that they both leave a corpse when they're destroyed.

I know what your point is, I'm saying I disagree. At best you can maybe get there with undead, and that's only because they generally start with a corpse (explaining why there would be one.) Constructs don't.

I would be very surprised if the devs intended Animate Dead to be usable on broken golems and such.

[unseenmage]

I know what your point is, I'm saying I disagree. At best you can maybe get there with undead, and that's only because they generally start with a corpse (explaining why there would be one.) Constructs don't.

I would be very surprised if the devs intended Animate Dead to be usable on broken golems and such.

So the Animated Object of a corpse does not leave a
corpse when it's hp is reduced to zero?

[Psyren]

So the Animated Object of a corpse does not leave a
corpse when it's hp is reduced to zero?

Even if it did, that would only apply to that specific construct (an animated corpse.) So you "destroy" it, you're left with a corpse (assuming it's intact enough), and you can then animate that. It falls under the whole "start with a corpse" I mentioned earlier.

This would not apply to things like myrmidon robots and clay golems etc.

[unseenmage]

...

I would be very surprised if the devs intended Animate Dead to be usable on broken golems and such.

Even if it did, that would only apply to that specific construct (an animated corpse.) So you "destroy" it, you're left with a corpse (assuming it's intact enough), and you can then animate that. It falls under the whole "start with a corpse" I mentioned earlier.

This would not apply to things like myrmidon robots and clay golems etc.

I suppose the part I'm having trouble with is the assertion that all constructs, being destroyed rather than gaining the dead condition, do not leave corpses. Except for constructs that do leave corpses when they are destroyed.

Especially when said corner case would appear to be based more on how you choose to interpret the devs RAI rather than the RAW of the elements at hand.


I do apologize for not being able to express myself more logically/clearly.
Was part of why I started this thread. I was hoping other, more precise, minds might take up the discussion in my stead.
The way my brain processes language is great for prose, awful for constructive discussion. Good comprehension, poor calculation. Means I excel at layered effects in gaming, but am dreadful when it comes to calculating bonuses/penalties. Constructing an infinite cycle in D&D/PF or MtG comes naturally. Doing combat math; not so much.
So again, my apologies.

[Psyren]

There's nothing at all to apologize for, we have a civil disagreement that's all.

I understand where you're coming from - the Animate Dead spell requires "corpses" which is a pretty vague term. And Zombie at least can be applied to just about anything corporeal. But where I'm coming from is that I can't possibly imagine the designers intended zombie iron or clay golems to be running around. The line might be arbitrary but it should exist, and in my mind, must.

As for the corner case, when you're working with something that is a corpse beforehand, I'd expect there to be niche interactions there.

[Jack_Simth]

It wasn't easy, but I found this gem under the rules for aiming a spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Aiming-a-Spell) (under the "Creatures" sub-heading):
In that case, we have scenario that violates the "once living" section of the Undead type for *most* constructs. You cannot Animate Dead on a Stone, Clay, or Iron Golem, because they fail "once living" in the undead type definition. A Flesh golem is still up in the air (it may animate as the constituent original creatures, or it may animate as the corpse of a golem, or it may be utterly invalid - we do not have a clear citation).

So we still need a solid game-definition of "corpse": what makes one, what doesn't.