Can druids wild Shape into Swarms?

[frogglesmash]

Could an 11th level druid wild shape into a swarm of rats? As far as I can tell, even though a rat swarm is technically a bunch of individual rats, they get treated as one creature with the swarm subtype rendering them an eligible form for wild shape.

[eggynack]

I'm doubtful. Wild shape isn't just letting you become one creature. It's letting you become one animal, and my thinking is that a swarm is unquestionably multiple animals.

[Midnightninja]

Pathfinder or 3.5? Pathfinder has a druid spell called swarm skin that allows a druid to transform into on or more swarms. As far as wildshaping, I doubt it by RAW.

[AsteriskAmp]

You can't. Vermin is a Type in the same way Animal is. A swarm of rats is a single Vermin Type creature, not a collection of tiny animals per the rules.

There are numerous feats for druids that expand the wildshape list, a Cityscape Web Supplement ACF lets you transform into certain vermin sizes.

[Necroticplague]

Could an 11th level druid wild shape into a swarm of rats? As far as I can tell, even though a rat swarm is technically a bunch of individual rats, they get treated as one creature with the swarm subtype rendering them an eligible form for wild shape.

No. However, it's not the 'swarm' part that's wrong with that (because Swarms are one creature, as you pointed out), it's the 'of rats' part. Rats are Vermin, not Animals. Said druid could, however, turn into a murder of crows, which is a Tiny Animal.

A Master of Many Forms or a druid with Vermin Shape could take on a rat swarm form, though.

[Zombimode]

Rats are Vermin, not Animals.

They are? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rat.htm)

Same applies to Rat Swarms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#ratSwarm).

It is questionable if Wild Shape by itself allows swarm shapes. The swarm entry in the Monster Manual calls it out as a game construct. The Wild Shape description talks about "animal", as in a) singular and b) lower case (notable different to the upper case size restriction).

With b) in particular, we have no clear RAW case, so the DM has to draw their own conclusion about the intent from the way the rules are presented.

Also, isn't there a "Swarm Shifter" PRC or feat somewhere?
If this would grant the ability to wildshape into swarms this would heavily imply that this is not normally possible.

[Necroticplague]

They are? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rat.htm)

Same applies to Rat Swarms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#ratSwarm). Huh. Thought they were Vermin. Looks like rat swarms are A.O.K, then)


It is questionable if Wild Shape by itself allows swarm shapes. The swarm entry in the Monster Manual calls it out as a game construct. The Wild Shape description talks about "animal", as in a) singular and b) lower case (notable different to the upper case size restriction).

With b) in particular, we have no clear RAW case, so the DM has to draw their own conclusion about the intent from the way the rules are presented.
Except you're missing the very next sentence that clears up the issue.

Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type.
A Swarm is a creature of the animal type. And it even talks about it in the plural, if it's of any relevance (it isn't).

For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature....
So, for game purposes, a swarm of rats is a single creature of the animal type. It is thus a valid Wild Shape form. Unless you want to argue that Wild Shape doesn't count as part of the game.


Also, isn't there a "Swarm Shifter" PRC or feat somewhere?
If this would grant the ability to wildshape into swarms this would heavily imply that this is not normally possible.[/QUOTE]

Swarm-shifter is an undead template, completely unrelated to Wild Shape.

[CozJa]

Also, isn't there a "Swarm Shifter" PRC or feat somewhere?
If this would grant the ability to wildshape into swarms this would heavily imply that this is not normally possible.

Yes, the Vermin Keeper from "Underdark". at level 10 it gives you the ability to wildshape into a swarm of vermins.

Now... fact is that Swarm is a Subtype and the description of Wild Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape)says that it works like alternate form. And the description of alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) clearly states that you keep the original type and subtype of the original creature and the only subtype which is explicitely called out to be gained is the Aquatic one.
Considering this, and the fact that the Vermin Keeper prestige class differentiates between being able to wildshape into a tiny/diminutive vermin, and being able to wildshape into a swarm, I'd say that no, a 11th level druid cannot wildshape into a swarm of rats.

[Zombimode]

Except you're missing the very next sentence that clears up the issue.

Hm, yes, you are correct.

I would still argue that WildShaping into a swarm goes against the intent of the ability. Like the CozJa said, WildShaping into a swarm would result in a swarm without the swarm subtype... which to indicates that this is not something that should happen.

[CozJa]

city-shape (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) is even more clear on saying that a druid cannot normally transform into a swarm.

[eggynack]

city-shape (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) is even more clear on saying that a druid cannot normally transform into a swarm.
Oh, yeah, that's the one. I was stuck on vermin wild shape in my head for some reason. I dunno how strongly I agree with the argument from subtype, meanwhile. These creatures get swarm traits, not only intrinsically from subtype, but also as a special quality unto itself. If that special quality is natural, then this whole thing is pretty straightforward, but if it's extraordinary then picking it up is possible. It's a kinda janky rules area, what you do with these abilities that are supposed to be derived from type.

[CozJa]

It's a kinda janky rules area, what you do with these abilities that are supposed to be derived from type.

that's true. Some swarms clearly have abilities deriving from being a swarm but not attached to the swarm subtype (see bats swarm). That said, I suppose that both City-shape and Vermin Keeper call forth for an argumentation against the druid transforming into swarms, since both abilities are based on the presumption that the druid cannot do it.

[Necroticplague]

that's true. Some swarms clearly have abilities deriving from being a swarm but not attached to the swarm subtype (see bats swarm). That said, I suppose that both City-shape and Vermin Keeper call forth for an argumentation against the druid transforming into swarms, since both abilities are based on the presumption that the druid cannot do it.

An argumentation against it being intended, not necessarily one on whether they can. They're based on that presumption, but is that presumption actually the case?

[CozJa]

An argumentation against it being intended, not necessarily one on whether they can. They're based on that presumption, but is that presumption actually the case?

I don't get the question, sorry :smallsmile:

[Ruethgar]

I don't get the question, sorry :smallsmile:

He's basically saying that might very well be the RAI but what about the RAW. RAW I think you can do it, but without the Swarm Subtype you lose pretty much everything you would want the form for besides "look at me I'm a swarm of rats." Which could have valid fluff intent, but is mechanically inferior to just picking a rat which has a natural attack, is harder to hit, and has greater maneuverability. The part about being able to squeeze through spaces of the base creature size is an aspect of the Swarm Subtype and is superseded by your new space of 10ft square which is not amorphous like it is with swarms.

[Segev]

Without the swarm subtype, you lose the space/reach and even the extra bodies. A "swarm of rats" that lacks the swarm subtype is one rat.

[CozJa]

Without the swarm subtype, you lose the space/reach and even the extra bodies. A "swarm of rats" that lacks the swarm subtype is one rat.

This.

Even if other swarms (like the bats) would keep some of their abilities. The rats definitely no

@Ruethgar thanks now is clearer.

But I'd say that even going RAW, reading of two abilities that basically are saying "Now with this ability you can do X" strongly suggests the "without this ability you cannot do X" reading.

[Flickerdart]

Yes, the Vermin Keeper from "Underdark". at level 10 it gives you the ability to wildshape into a swarm of vermins.

Now... fact is that Swarm is a Subtype and the description of Wild Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape)says that it works like alternate form. And the description of alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) clearly states that you keep the original type and subtype of the original creature and the only subtype which is explicitely called out to be gained is the Aquatic one.
Considering this, and the fact that the Vermin Keeper prestige class differentiates between being able to wildshape into a tiny/diminutive vermin, and being able to wildshape into a swarm, I'd say that no, a 11th level druid cannot wildshape into a swarm of rats.

It seems like based on this, the druid would totally be able to wildshape into a swarm of rats - but would not gain the traits of the Swarm subtype. So he would be vulnerable to attacks like normal, lack the swarm attack, and the nausea. He would still be able to obtain everything else that the particular swarm has, such as the flight speed or Wounding special attack of a bat swarm.

[eggynack]

It seems like based on this, the druid would totally be able to wildshape into a swarm of rats - but would not gain the traits of the Swarm subtype. So he would be vulnerable to attacks like normal, lack the swarm attack, and the nausea. He would still be able to obtain everything else that the particular swarm has, such as the flight speed or Wounding special attack of a bat swarm.
My biggest question is whether, if this is a possible form, you can pick up all the stuff you'd want out of a swarm with enhance wild shape.

[Flickerdart]

My biggest question is whether, if this is a possible form, you can pick up all the stuff you'd want out of a swarm with enhance wild shape.

I think you would not - the creature whose form you assume simply lacks the abilities, they are not just locked away. Enhance wild shape has nothing that it can grant you.

[CozJa]

In practice we are going to delve deeper into the philosophical question: "A swarm without swarm subtype is still a swarm"?

[eggynack]

I think you would not - the creature whose form you assume simply lacks the abilities, they are not just locked away. Enhance wild shape has nothing that it can grant you.
Not sure if that's the case. Swarms all have that swarm traits line hanging out under special qualities. Arguably that line remains there even if the subtype does not, made inaccessible due to the fact that you have neither the subtype nor the correct ability type.

[KillianHawkeye]

Not sure if that's the case. Swarms all have that swarm traits line hanging out under special qualities. Arguably that line remains there even if the subtype does not, made inaccessible due to the fact that you have neither the subtype nor the correct ability type.

I'm pretty sure that's there BECAUSE they have the subtype, not in spite of it. Similarly, undead creatures have the "undead traits" special quality in their stat blocks. It's there as a reminder for the DM, because the traits granted by these types and subtypes are an important part of the creature.

[eggynack]

I'm pretty sure that's there BECAUSE they have the subtype, not in spite of it. Similarly, undead creatures have the "undead traits" special quality in their stat blocks. It's there as a reminder for the DM, because the traits granted by these types and subtypes are an important part of the creature.
I'm not saying it's not there because of that. I'm just saying it's there. Swarms get swarm traits as a special quality. But, on an individual level, bat swarms get swarm traits as a special quality. As a subset of swarms, perhaps, but it's a special quality they have nonetheless, and there's an argument to be made that it is trapped behind only the ability types you get through your form changing method. It's kinda like how enhance wild shape into wolf form seems to get you low-light vision, even though that particular ability is likely type derived. Or consider the way plants are constructed in MM II. Those creatures get plant traits, but they're written explicitly as extraordinary special qualities, with all the specific abilities they get laid out, and said abilities attributed particularly to the plant in question.

Form changing is weird.

Edit: Also, consider the argument from past abilities based RAI in the other direction. If it's impossible to get even the vaguest qualities of a swarm after becoming a swarm, then the city-shape ACF's swarm thing is useless. not saying this is a solid RAW argument, but it's an interesting way to think about it.

[KillianHawkeye]

Fair enough.

[Duke of Urrel]

An argumentation against it being intended, not necessarily one on whether they can. They're based on that presumption, but is that presumption actually the case?


He's basically saying that might very well be the RAI but what about the RAW.

If the RAW are unclear and the RAI are all that we have to go on, then we should go with the RAI. And remember that we can't assume that something is allowed merely because the RAW don't explicitly forbid it.


Without the swarm subtype, you lose the space/reach and even the extra bodies. A "swarm of rats" that lacks the swarm subtype is one rat.

I think this makes sense and should preclude any speculation about whether you can acquire the sole extraordinary special attack of the Swarm subtype, namely Distraction, without the Swarm subtype itself, merely because Distraction is an extraordinary special attack. I think Distraction depends upon having numerous disgusting bodies instead of just one. Saying that you get the Distraction attack without extra bodies is like saying that you get to use the extraordinary Rock Throwing attack as a giant even if you don't have any rocks to throw.