So I finally have 9th level spells.

[Metahuman1]

I want to make a privet Demi Plane. One were I can make the rules for how it works.

What spells do I need, and what books do I need to look at both for spells and the relevant planar rules? And were in these books?

I have 9th level spells on a sorcerer build, with 9 levels of mage of the arcane order. So whatever spells I need I can get.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) is the spell, originally printed in the Epic Level Handbook. You should find the relevant rules in Manual of the Planes and/or the Planar Handbook. For everything else, there's google. Good luck!

[Coretron03]

I want to make a privet Demi Plane. One were I can make the rules for how it works.

What spells do I need, and what books do I need to look at both for spells and the relevant planar rules? And were in these books?

I have 9th level spells on a sorcerer build, with 9 levels of mage of the arcane order. So whatever spells I need I can get.

Mostly you need genesis here
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm
The spell provides basically what you need, although you need a way to get to the etheral plane for a week to cast it. You could use your spell pool to cast it so you don't need to learn the spell known, along with some spell to get to the etheral plane (I think planeshift works). However the spell has a Exp cost of 5k which could cause you to go down a level. You get to pick a general enviroment and whatnot.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Crake]

Mostly you need genesis here
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm
The spell provides basically what you need, although you need a way to get to the etheral plane for a week to cast it. You could use your spell pool to cast it so you don't need to learn the spell known, along with some spell to get to the etheral plane (I think planeshift works). However the spell has a Exp cost of 5k which could cause you to go down a level. You get to pick a general enviroment and whatnot.

Edit: Ninja'd

False, you cannot spend xp to the point of losing a level.


Some powerful spells entail an experience point cost to you. No spell can restore the XP lost in this manner. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Fun detail, the version of genesis linked above is -not- the most recent version. In point of fact, the version in deities and demigods is the most recent.

Hilariously, that version is -not- a sorcerer/wizard spell and lacks the language whereby most of the common "tricks" associated with private demiplanes derives.

How did no one notice this sooner?

[Metahuman1]

Wait.

Your telling me then that as a sorcerer/mage of the arcane order, I can't make a Demiplane then?




Also: What parts of the Planar Handbook / Manual of the planes should I be looking at? Can you narrow it down for me a bit so I don't have the comb the entirety of two books please?


Lastly: Any suggestions on getting around that Ethereal Plane bit? It might prove tricky to go to that specific plane at this time in game due to plot reasons that would take forever to explain.

[flappeercraft]

Kelb is right, just checked the release dates of the books and ELH was released on 2001 and Deities and Demigods was released on February 2002.

[Aharon]

Fun detail, the version of genesis linked above is -not- the most recent version. In point of fact, the version in deities and demigods is the most recent.

Hilariously, that version is -not- a sorcerer/wizard spell and lacks the language whereby most of the common "tricks" associated with private demiplanes derives.

How did no one notice this sooner?

I always assumed that there's one Genesis for clerics and one for wizards and sorcerers - similar to how the same spell can have different levels for different classes, I didn't think it would be unreasonalbe to have a spell of the same level, but with different effects for different classes.

[LordOfCain]

Would that mean that like Dread Necromancer spells reprinted in the Spell Compendium would be removed from the Dread Necromancer list?

[Zombimode]

I always assumed that there's one Genesis for clerics and one for wizards and sorcerers - similar to how the same spell can have different levels for different classes, I didn't think it would be unreasonalbe to have a spell of the same level, but with different effects for different classes.

You mean except that those two cases have nothing in common? How can you equate "a spell can be on several spell list, on each with it's own spell level" with "there can be several spells with the same name but different effects"?

[Metahuman1]

Wait.

Your telling me then that as a sorcerer/mage of the arcane order, I can't make a Demiplane then?




Also: What parts of the Planar Handbook / Manual of the planes should I be looking at? Can you narrow it down for me a bit so I don't have the comb the entirety of two books please?


Lastly: Any suggestions on getting around that Ethereal Plane bit? It might prove tricky to go to that specific plane at this time in game due to plot reasons that would take forever to explain.

So, yes? No? Anything?

[JoshuaZ]

Would that mean that like Dread Necromancer spells reprinted in the Spell Compendium would be removed from the Dread Necromancer list?

No. Spell Compendium explicitly says at one point that some of the spells which appear may appear on other lists and they are only listing core classes.

[Hecuba]

Kelb is right, just checked the release dates of the books and ELH was released on 2001 and Deities and Demigods was released on February 2002.


Fun detail, the version of genesis linked above is -not- the most recent version. In point of fact, the version in deities and demigods is the most recent.

Hilariously, that version is -not- a sorcerer/wizard spell and lacks the language whereby most of the common "tricks" associated with private demiplanes derives.

How did no one notice this sooner?

IRCC, both Deities & Demigods and ELH are 3e material and are superseded by the material provided in the 3.5 SRD & DMG.

[Metahuman1]

... ... ... ...


i think i am now more confused then i was when i posted the thread.

[flappeercraft]

IRCC, both Deities & Demigods and ELH are 3e material and are superseded by the material provided in the 3.5 SRD & DMG.

Usually true, but there is no update for the Genesis spell after the Deities and Demigods meaning that its the oficial one since it was never updated.

[JoshuaZ]

... ... ... ...


i think i am now more confused then i was when i posted the thread.

Given your avatar, I think your response should have been to link to Yang shouting that she can't take it anymore.

[Metahuman1]

Given your avatar, I think your response should have been to link to Yang shouting that she can't take it anymore.

You would be amazed how little a youtube search for that clip yields of relevance.



That said, I can't help but note that I STILL haven't even gotten relevant segments of the books or any kind of actually detailed instructions on HOW to go about doing this beyond "cast this spell and read these 2 entire books in the next day or so and try to extrapolate the relevant information form all of that absorption.".


All that seems to be coming in are lack of answers in favor of debating weather arcane casters can cast the spell or not. (I'm at the point were I'm almost willing to say ignore that detail and assume the answer is yes they can and go form there.).

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you can cast the spell (we'll just leave off on that for now) then that's pretty much it unless you're trying to pull some shady stuff.

You get your demiplane when you cast the spell, you know where it meets the ethereal and can teleport to the corresponding material location, etherealize, and shift to your demiplane whenever you like. Actually furnishing the thing is conducted just as you would any other stronghold.

If you want to manipulate the gravity, time, and magic traits; you'll need to wait for us to sort out which is the correct version of the spell since the text that allows that isn't in one version of the spell. Else, ask your DM. If he's anything like me, don't get your hopes up.

[martixy]

Fun detail, the version of genesis linked above is -not- the most recent version. In point of fact, the version in deities and demigods is the most recent.

Hilariously, that version is -not- a sorcerer/wizard spell and lacks the language whereby most of the common "tricks" associated with private demiplanes derives.

How did no one notice this sooner?

No, it's not. In fact all the most recent, 3.5 versions of the spell/power explicitly mention you cannot mess with the time trait of that plane.
Which, I think are the psionics one and the tome of magic one. Which, amusingly, means that if you stick to 3.5 explicitly, arcane casters do not get access to that spell.

[Silentline]

I want to make a private Demi Plane. One were I can make the rules for how it works.

What spells do I need, and what books do I need to look at both for spells and the relevant planar rules? And were in these books?

I have 9th level spells on a sorcerer build, with 9 levels of mage of the arcane order. So whatever spells I need I can get.

In the ever flexible realm of role playing there is always a way however Wish and Limited wish are very dangerous. And I am sure if you do your homework with a reasonable request backed by the characters goal you can achieve middle ground. Seek assistance from a party member or some other form of individual with power to aid you out of loyalty such as followers of the divine type.

Class adaptation: The Divine Sorcerer (Reference: Complete Champion page 52)
The cost. You will have to sacrifice the very first spell slot of EACH spell level and insert the appropriate Domain spell for that level. I have the feeling this is going to be alot of Knowledge religion and understudy to a church but coming from a spell caster outlook of your calibur you might as well tack the, "I want to create a divine citadel unto (insert God name) within the confines of a demi plane between (bleh and bleh!) So slap on planer knowledges if you arent already schooled in it.

Whether the Deity your character is closest has the proper Domain to access such a spell at Lv9 is what will make or break this approach.

You will have to do some referencing of what domain will allow the Level 9 spell Genesis.

Off the top of my head..I'm thinking Creation Domain before it was watered down into a less primordial force outside the prestige Domain in Defenders of the Faith which may make it out of reach pending your Dungeon Masters adaptation rules set.

Well that is the only one I can think of at this time that deals with a much more specialized version that is directly tied to the creation of the fabled Demi plane. I do not feel like filing through various multiple universal Deities so this is where my homework ends and your begins.

I hope this has been an aid to flesh out your character and enrich your experience as a player. Just know that if this works your DM has justification in drawing up unimaginable planer threats that could bring you into conflict with terrifying enemies that pose threats to the gods themselves. Tread carefully for you are going where alot of characters would dare not go.

[icefractal]

Worst case scenario, you could Wish for a Power Stone of (Psionic) Genesis. Doesn't have all the cheese potential of Wizard Genesis, but it does create a demiplane just fine. The power only costs 1000 xp itself, but getting it via Wish would be 7K and a bit.

I think most GMs would allow the arcane version though, as it seems like it's only technically superseded due odd circumstances. Now whether they allow cheese like "1000:1 time scale" is a different question, but there's no reason Wizards shouldn't be able to create demiplanes in general.

Depending on how friendly the GM is to homebrew, you could also port Create Greater Demiplane from Pathfinder, which is more specific/intentional in how the properties can be modified.

[Silentline]

Worst case scenario, you could Wish for a Power Stone of (Psionic) Genesis. Doesn't have all the cheese potential of Wizard Genesis, but it does create a demiplane just fine.

Simple. Sleek. and to the point. I second the less complicated motion.

[Kelb_Panthera]

No, it's not. In fact all the most recent, 3.5 versions of the spell/power explicitly mention you cannot mess with the time trait of that plane.
Which, I think are the psionics one and the tome of magic one. Which, amusingly, means that if you stick to 3.5 explicitly, arcane casters do not get access to that spell.

Technically, the genesis power isn't a spell so pretty clearly not an update. Word of genesis isn't even the same name so also pretty definitely not an update.

It gets better though; the creation domain was updated in the spell compendium and doesn't include genesis anymore. If the D&DG version is the most recent, then the spell has been entirely eliminated since it doesn't appear on -any- list.

The effect is still available from the options you mentioned, at least.

[Hecuba]

Usually true, but there is no update for the Genesis spell after the Deities and Demigods meaning that its the oficial one since it was never updated.

Yes there is: the version published in the Revised (3.5) System Reference Document Epic Spells file (2004, IIRC). The fact that it is identical to one of the earlier 2 versions doesn't change the fact that it was published later: it's newer and it is explicitly a 3.5 document.

Also, technically speaking, outside special guidance regarding 3e/3.5 updates order or publication doesn't actually matter for which version is "official": the primary source rules govern that - and because WotC usually ignores their own rules, this would usually result in the older version taking precedence. If you want to argue that the SRD never gets to act as a primary source, that's fine - but in that case there is nothing in the De.&De. version that would give it precedence under the primary source rules over the ELH version. (In general, I recommend you ignore the primary source rules.)

[Metahuman1]

Worst case scenario, you could Wish for a Power Stone of (Psionic) Genesis. Doesn't have all the cheese potential of Wizard Genesis, but it does create a demiplane just fine. The power only costs 1000 xp itself, but getting it via Wish would be 7K and a bit.



The game has a hard ban on all things Psionic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The game has a hard ban on all things Psionic.

That's too bad.

There's still word of genesis from tome of magic (good luck) and the planes walker's capstone ability from MotP though it's probably a bit late for that.

[Aharon]

You mean except that those two cases have nothing in common? How can you equate "a spell can be on several spell list, on each with it's own spell level" with "there can be several spells with the same name but different effects"?

Sorry, mental leap I didn't put into sufficiently detailed writing. Spells already are different for different classes - the same spell has different modes of usage for different classes sometimes (material component vs. no material component), and other spells explicitly call out that they have different (usually better) effects for certain classes or races - or sometimes restrictions (for example, if you cast Animal Growth as a scalykind domain spell, it only effects reptilian creatures).
So it would not be unreasonable to assume that instead of printing only one spell that lists all the exceptions for different classes, they chose to print it sepearately, taking into account the focus of the source book this version appeared in.

Tangent: Isn't Deities and Demigods printed after Epic Level Handbook, anyway? At least according to Wikipedia. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_rulebooks#Dungeons_.2 6_Dragons_3rd_edition_and_v3.5)