Concentration Saving Throws and a Feat question

[Edgerunner]

About to get lvl 9 on my Sverfneblin lvl 1 Knowledge Cleric/lvl 7 Divination Wizard and I want to get a Feat that will improve my Concentration Saves.

I went 1st lvl Cleric so I have proficiency in Cha and Wis Saves.

At first I was going to grab War Caster for advantage on saves. Makes sense right.
But then I thought about Resilient Con which would give me a Proficiency in Con and I will have a +4 Prof bonus so that will give me a +6 on Con Saves. Only issue is that my Con is an Even numbered stat so the +1 does nothing for me.

So which way should I go. Roll Con with Advantage. Or get an extra +4 to my Con roll???

[Arkhios]

Do you have any melee range and/or save DC single-target cantrips or spells? Those would benefit quite a bit from War Caster, and some say (even I myself deduced from PHB) that advantage is supposed to be roughly equal with +5 bonus, if that's got any weight on this matter.

If you're still having second thoughts about War Caster, consider planning a few levels ahead and take Resilient now and Durable later. With Durable, Con 16, and HD d6, you'd always regain at minimum 6 hp out of maximum 9 hp (66℅) with every hit dice you spend during short rests, which does help quite a bit to better conserve your hit dice, which may become useful.

If you later improve your Con to 18, your short rest recovery minimum would become 8 out of max. 10 (80℅ mind you!)

With Con 20 (if you somehow get there), you'd recover 10 out of 11 hp, at minimum, every single time (that's approx. 91℅!)

[hymer]

Advantage on the roll is worth between +5 and just below +1 (or nothing, if you can't even make the save on a 20; quite unusual, but not impossible). If you're at 50% chance of making it without advantage, advantage adds a whopping +5 to your roll. On the other hand, if you can only make it on a 20 (though 20 isn't automatic sucess, nor is 1 an automatic failure), advantage gives you two chances for that 20, the equivalent of +1 on the roll.
If you make one roll at 5%, one at 10%, one at 15% and so on up to 95%, I believe Advantage will on average give you a little less than +3.5.
So since you're this high level, if you're looking at concentration saves only, Resilient (Con) is likely to get you more. But, as Arkhios above points out, it won't do anything else for you, at least for now (well, it works on other Con saves too, of course). There are som fun spells that can be cast as a reaction sometimes.

[Specter]

I'd go Resilient. Concentration isn't even the main deal here: when poison, cold, necromancy, stunning and tons of other harmful stuff come your way, you'll be glad you have it. You should have a hand free too, so one of the benefits of War Caster is pretty much lost.

Plus, as a Diviner you can assure you suceed on a save, so raising the modifier is better than rolling two dice. At level 9, with 15 in CON you can get up to 26 as a result.

[RulesJD]

I'd go Resilient. Concentration isn't even the main deal here: when poison, cold, necromancy, stunning and tons of other harmful stuff come your way, you'll be glad you have it. You should have a hand free too, so one of the benefits of War Caster is pretty much lost.

Plus, as a Diviner you can assure you suceed on a save, so raising the modifier is better than rolling two dice. At level 9, with 15 in CON you can get up to 26 as a result.

^^^ This. Resiliency 110%. War Caster is highly situational (how often do you really get enemies to provoke Opportunity Attacks?) and less useful as the damage you're soaking up increases. Plus, it only gets better as you level (+4, +5, +6 Proficiency bonus) and applies to all saves, not just concentration.

[Edgerunner]

Do you have any melee range and/or save DC single-target cantrips or spells? )

I have Inflict Wounds for just such an emergency altho I rarely find myself anywhere near melee range.

[Tanarii]

War caster gives you a 84% chance of passing a DC 10 concentration check. Resilient Con only gives you a 80% chance. Take war caster, since it's better and the other benefits actually might come into play, unlike the +1 Con.

Link to any dice. Top is warcaster, bottom is resilient (con):
http://anydice.com/program/aaa4

Edit: totally wasn't thinking about non-concentration Con saves. /facepalm.

Yeah it comes down to what you need more:
A) casting while hand full and cantrips OAs
B) +4 to all con saves (not just concentration)

[coredump]

War caster gives you a 84% chance of passing a DC 10 concentration check. Resilient Con only gives you a 80% chance. Take war caster, since it's better and the other benefits actually might come into play, unlike the +1 Con.

Link to any dice. Top is warcaster, bottom is resilient (con):
http://anydice.com/program/aaa4

Edit: totally wasn't thinking about non-concentration Con saves. /facepalm.

Yeah it comes down to what you need more:
A) casting while hand full and cantrips OAs
B) +4 to all con saves (not just concentration)
Your math is off. Should be => 10, so 15%.fail with rescon

[Tanarii]

Your math is off. Should be => 10, so 15%.fail with rescon
w00t thanks that's why I show my work, so to speak.
Corrected to > 9:
http://anydice.com/program/aaaa

87.75% Warcaster
85.00% Resilient (Con)

So yeah, it really boils down to other factors, such as the other non-concentration check benefits of each Feat. And (as others pointed out above) other Features coming into play on Saves.

[Arkhios]

I have Inflict Wounds for just such an emergency altho I rarely find myself anywhere near melee range.

In that case, forget War Caster. As others have said, constitution save proficiency is great in itself, even if you had to wait for another 4 levels to improve Con again.

[MrWesson22]

War Caster lets you cast any single target spell as an opportunity attack, not just cantrips.

[Tanarii]

War Caster lets you cast any single target spell as an opportunity attack, not just cantrips.Oh jeez, I've been totally undervaluing the Feat. Adding it to my list of OP feats with GWM & SS lol

In my defense, my campaign is Feat-less, and it's been a while since I played AL.

[RulesJD]

Oh jeez, I've been totally undervaluing the Feat. Adding it to my list of OP feats with GWM & SS lol

In my defense, my campaign is Feat-less, and it's been a while since I played AL.

It's not. Not even remotely. The ability to cast spells when a target provokes and Opp Attack is basically useless in real game play.

[Specter]

"Who the hell provokes an opportunity attack from a wizard?"

Treantmonk

[Arkhios]

It's not. Not even remotely. The ability to cast spells when a target provokes and Opp Attack is basically useless in real game play.

I had a feeling that Tanarii's comment may (or may not) have been sarcasm on that regard, to be honest.

[djreynolds]

Its all relevant.

The real question is... do you use a shield? The you need warcaster anyhow, unless you go without a weapon.

I assume you are wearing half-plate and using a shield... so I would take war caster.

And then grab resilient con as some point

[agnos]

TBH, Resilient Con vs War Caster depends on a few things:
1. Is either your of Con or Int odd but not both?
2. Do you use a shield and staff/wand/arcane focus or intend to?
3. How much are you concerned about saves vs Cold Damage, Endurance, poison, stunning, petrification, and death?
4. Do you often wade into melee to provide Sneak benefits?
5. Do you often find a few more hit points would keep you above 0hp in combat?
6. What is your current Con save Modifier?
7. What are the usual Concentration DCs you need?
8. How many levels do you expect to play to?

Generally speaking if either your Con or Int is odd, then you benefit more from Resilient Con as it either evens out your Con or leads into +1 to both Con/Int to even out both stats. If you're always using a shield and a staff (or other arcane focus), War Caster letting you ignore somatic components puts preference to War Caster. The more concerned you are about the usual uses for a Con save (which fwiw start popping up around 8th level), the more reason to take Resilient Con. The more often you wade into melee equates to seeing more low DC Con saves, which gives an edge towards War Caster which provides a larger benefit at low DCs. If you often find that an extra 10hp or so would prevent you from hitting 0, then Resilient Con makes more sense. Your Current Con Save and your current usual Con Save DCs play into the stats; it's basic stats and hypergeometric distribution. Either way, there's a way to statistically expect one to be better. Ballparking things, starting Con Save of +1 or less tends to favor Resilient Con whereas starting Con Save of +2 or more tends to favor War Caster. Ballparking continued, DCs around 10 strongly favor War Caster whereas DCs above 15 tend to favor Resilient Con (however, it does matter what your base Save is)? You're level 9 now; if you expect to get to 20, Resilient Con carries far better mileage in my experience. If you don't expect to go past 13, I'd expect War Caster will outpace Resilient Con.

All that said, I generally plan to take both on my casters. Resilient Con adding proficiency bonus +1 is a great multipurpose tool. I also like to mix it up and act as an off-tank in my parties so the secondary benefits of War Caster are nice benefits. Often, I'll grab both on my casters; by 4 if I'm Human) or by the third ASI if I'm not.

Either way, I've laid out a good way for you to measure which likely suits you better. You'll be the best judge since you have the most info. Do with it what you think will work better for you.

[djreynolds]

Excellent points all around.

Both are great, and both should be taken at some point

My wizard didn't use a weapon, so I took resilient con, but war caster was next on the list.

[Tanarii]

It's not. Not even remotely. The ability to cast spells when a target provokes and Opp Attack is basically useless in real game play.I take it your DM just never provokes OAs?

[RickAllison]

I take it your DM just never provokes OAs?

I think it is more the idea that getting next to the spellcaster is generally a better position for the NPC than retreating so OAs become an issue. Unless the caster is a Sorcadin or Bladesinger who proves to be extremely dangerous in melee, it is more advantageous to stay next to the caster, whittle them down, and break their concentration than to retreat and attack a different party member. This can matter if you have other casters in the party who might also be singled out, or if you have another way of making it undesirable to screw up the caster's spells, but this is far rarer than a similar situation for a melee Fighter.

OAs relevant to Warcaster (i.e. not from Polearm Master) are for an enemy choosing to leave the caster's reach. How often does that really happen when the battle isn't already won?

[hymer]

OAs relevant to Warcaster (i.e. not from Polearm Master) are for an enemy choosing to leave the caster's reach. How often does that really happen when the battle isn't already won?

There's the 'prevent them from escaping' thing, sure. But sometimes they aren't pulling away from the caster specifically, just from someone standing next to the caster. Or they are not melee characters, and would prefer to attack from a distance, if only to avoid disadvantage on their attack roll. Or they are themselves casters, and slightly squishier than the one with Warcaster. Also, they may have just succeeded in disrupting your Concentration, and would now like to go over and do the same to one of the other casters.
But a lot of the time, it's not just being able to do something particularly nasty with a reaction - it's the lengths enemies will go to, in order to avoid letting you do it. Spending their actions or spells to get away from you is helpful to your side, too. If the DM never does that anyway, then that part of the tactics is lost, of course.

[Tanarii]

OAs relevant to Warcaster (i.e. not from Polearm Master) are for an enemy choosing to leave the caster's reach. How often does that really happen when the battle isn't already won?For a caster who's concerned about losing concentration and using a shield + weapon combo, to the point they are considering taking War Caster? Often. Clerics, Druids, Valor College Bards, Paladins, Rangers, and Eldritch Knight Fighters, very often. Blade Warlocks, Bladesinger Wizards, Arcane Trickster Rogues, and Dragon Sorcerers don't typically use Shield + Weapon combo, but certainly they're regularly in a position to where OAs are provoked.

For an arcane ranged blaster? Yeah, not as often at all. So for most Wizard, many Warlocks, and Wild Mage Sorcerers, yeah, it's not necessarily that great.

[Edgerunner]

TBH, Resilient Con vs War Caster depends on a few things:
1. Is either your of Con or Int odd but not both?
2. Do you use a shield and staff/wand/arcane focus or intend to?
3. How much are you concerned about saves vs Cold Damage, Endurance, poison, stunning, petrification, and death?
4. Do you often wade into melee to provide Sneak benefits?
5. Do you often find a few more hit points would keep you above 0hp in combat?
6. What is your current Con save Modifier?
7. What are the usual Concentration DCs you need?
8. How many levels do you expect to play to?


1. All stats are Even #
2. Yes he does use a Shield.... but he wears it on his head. DM gave me +1 to AC for it LOL.
3. In about 6 sessions, 4 of those conditions have come up so far So I am Concerned
4. Try to never wade into combat.... but it has happened once or twice.
5. No. I usually only take Hits from Ranged weapons, rarely due to Shield spell, but the big hits usually come from AOE spells. Gnome Cunning: Adv on Int, Wis, Cha Saves vs magic
6. Con 14 = +2
7. Right about 15 sounds about right.
8. This Module should take us up to about lvl 13 at least. Not sure if the game will end at this point or not.

Yes. That's a Shield on his head LOL.
There is a whole backstory and reason why he feels a need to protect his head.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/files.d20.io/images/25427708/BduT5D-bDjW25zAq_bxPqg/med.jpg?1479578252

[RulesJD]

I take it your DM just never provokes OAs?

Not to the point where it makes it even remotely worth it to take a feat for those extreme situations.

I am, however, making Con saves when Poison, Cone of Cold, etc. start getting dropped.

The only class who can remotely get anything worthwhile out of War Caster is a melee focused Bard with Dissonant Whispers. In that edge case, yes it is worth it.

[agnos]

1. All stats are Even #
2. Yes he does use a Shield.... but he wears it on his head. DM gave me +1 to AC for it LOL.
3. In about 6 sessions, 4 of those conditions have come up so far So I am Concerned
4. Try to never wade into combat.... but it has happened once or twice.
5. No. I usually only take Hits from Ranged weapons, rarely due to Shield spell, but the big hits usually come from AOE spells. Gnome Cunning: Adv on Int, Wis, Cha Saves vs magic
6. Con 14 = +2
7. Right about 15 sounds about right.
8. This Module should take us up to about lvl 13 at least. Not sure if the game will end at this point or not.

Yes. That's a Shield on his head LOL.
There is a whole backstory and reason why he feels a need to protect his head.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/files.d20.io/images/25427708/BduT5D-bDjW25zAq_bxPqg/med.jpg?1479578252

For concentration saves, it looks like you'll do better with War Caster about 3-4% of the time. For normal constitution saves, you'll do better with Resilient Con about 20% of the time.

1 favors warcaster
2 favors warcaster
3 very heavily favors resilient
4 very slightly favors resilient
5 is neutral (as neither add hp for you unless you commit to take durable too)
6 moderately favors War Caster
7 ever so slightly (3-4%) favors warcaster
8 slightly favors warcaster

To me, resilient looks better for you overall; however, warcaster is slightly better statistically for the sole purpose of Concentration saves. I recommend Resilient, but your character your call. If you have a Paladin who's generous enough to often let you leech his divine grace (aka you're in his 10' aura often and he's graciously giving you +3 to +4 to all saves), then I'd recommend warcaster. Plus you'd get a real shield and a shield hat for twice the intelligence protecting benefit (+2), but that doesn't appear to be the case.

[djreynolds]

Then take war caster, 13th level is only +4 proficiency, so war caster is better in that regard.

But surviving stuff is also important. Resilient con affects concentration and all con saves

My advice is to ask your DM, to allow you to change your 14 con by taking 2 points from somewhere else it give a 15 in con or take 2 away from the 14 (making it a 13) and add it to some another stat like charisma or something... then resilient con would be more beneficial

If he allows a shield on your head... well he can allow for some minor changes to stats you were unaware of

BEG HIM

[Battlebooze]

Warcaster with a Cleric isn't bad, if you use Command to make your enemy flee on their next turn.

[Tanarii]

Then take war caster, 13th level is only +4 proficiency, so war caster is better in that regard.In this case, warcaster is 87.75% vs +4 is 85%. The difference on that front is negligible for success vs DC 10 concentration checks.

[djreynolds]

In this case, warcaster is 87.75% vs +4 is 85%. The difference on that front is negligible for success vs DC 10 concentration checks.

It is tough to decide, both are really good.

But when an evil monk comes over and stuns you... perhaps resilient con is the better choice.

Be prepared to take both, getting stunned by undead in a con save and being paralyzed and having undead beat you to death is an awful way to go.

[Toadkiller]

[QUOTE=
Plus, as a Diviner you can assure you suceed on a save, so raising the modifier is better than rolling two dice. At level 9, with 15 in CON you can get up to 26 as a result.[/QUOTE]

This is kind of funny. Diviner just gives you some extra rolls. It doesn't guarantee they will help you with a save.

[RickAllison]

This is kind of funny. Diviner just gives you some extra rolls. It doesn't guarantee they will help you with a save.

The point was that taking Resilient (CON) lowers the floor for potential saves. It means, for example that on a DC 17 Con saving throw that an 11 or above on the Divined dice roll could make it, where someone taking Warcaster instead has to get a 15 or better. It helps you make better use of the rolls that you do have.

[Specter]

This is kind of funny. Diviner just gives you some extra rolls. It doesn't guarantee they will help you with a save.

Yeah, well, no. If you get a 4 on your portent die, you can guarantee your sucess on a DC10 check (2+4 in profociency). If a DC20conc saving throw happens for insane damage, use your 14 portent and succeed. Simple as that.

But really, War Caster would only be better if OP had his hands full with a weapon and shield; Resilient (CON) protects against the hundreds of CON saves that happen in any adventure, and still gives you a stat point.

EK? War Caster. Wizard? Resilient.