OOTS #477 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Khaldan]

:mitd: is awesome at just about everything, and he only costs 19.95! He can cause earthquakes! He slices and Dices! And if you call now, we send you a second :mitd: free! Just pay shipping and handling.

[Bocc Kob]

Heh heh, arrow in the nuts.

Belkar just gained four more levels of awesome.

[Yechezkiel]

Thank you.

[Porthos]

You are a mean, mean DM writer. You do know this, right? :smallbiggrin:

Poor, poor O-Chul. :smalleek: Oh well, I guess Tsukiko will get her plaything after all. :smallyuk:

Well worth the wait.

[gooddragon1]

I guess it'd have to be pretty durable...

MITD's STR score has to be legendary and insane.

[Raiser Blade]

Xykon's Brothers??

Oh i see dang I think that the MitD is way to powerfull for the OotS to beat

i think he is going to turn on xykon eventually


heheh o-chul is gonna be po'd at belkar when he becomes un paralyzed

[archon_huskie]

MitD never understood what the other three human skeletons were. This is Great. O-Chul probably remembers all that Belkar said as he threw him away too.

[SPoD]

Xykon's Brothers??

:mitd: thinks that the Xykon clones (huecuva, death knight, and eye of fear and flame) are Xykon's twin brothers, remember?

[Allandaros]

Brothers - the decoys (the Death Knight, Eye of Fear and Flame, and Hecuva).

Also, I will second the eeeeevil DM statement. I LIKED O-chul, too! :(

[soni]

omg, I'm dying laughing...

this bites.. I've been coughing all day.. it hurts to laugh...

the roaches RULE!

[Swordguy]

Okay, MitD is seriously badass.

I can't think of ANYTHING in the d20 system that can stomp like that.

...maybe it's some sort of evil, undead, uber-Tauren...

[mockingbyrd7]

Wow. That was a pretty impressive move.

And Roy got shot in the nuts! Classic!

[Rincewind]

Amazing. I never thought :mitd: would be THAT powerful. I mean, what do we have here? :/

A Legendary Panda-Sannin? :smallbiggrin:

Well, light the torches, it's time for another epic "What the F is MitD" thread. :smallsmile:


Xykon's Brothers??

Yep, those other skeletons dressed as Xykon...

[absentshadow]

I really do not understand why :haley: shot at :roy: in the first place... Pent up aggression?

[EvilJames]

Aww Man I liked O-chul, I was really hoping that they would fix him (he's got to be sore from holding that position so long) but now it looks like he's screwed.


I really do not understand why shot at in the first place... Pent up aggression?

to avoid having to climb down and get him if he fell to far she might not be able to recover the body

[Nu]

Mmmmmm, did Haley take the Ranged Pin feat? That's an unusual choice for an archer-Rogue I'd think ;)


I really do not understand why :haley: shot at :roy: in the first place... Pent up aggression?

To keep him from falling further, I think.

[Calico]

Oh ouch. Poor Roy. I wonder what his girlfriend will say.

[Shadic]

"Mr. Stiffy." and Roy getting shot in the Trouser Titan...

Maybe I'm searching too far for jokes, but that was still rather enjoyable.

[Bitzeralisis]

I love MitD's stomp.

[Porthos]

I really do not understand why :haley: shot at :roy: in the first place... Pent up aggression?

She shot Roy so he would be pinned against the chasm wall, and thus would stop from falling. Then she got out her rope and tied it to him and pulled him back up.

Standard Adventurer thinking right there. :smallwink:

[Nu]

Now, I'm not complaining about it, as I understand it's comic/DnD/plot-physics and thus cannot be explained and doesn't need to be realistic, but...

There's no way that an arrow through the nuts would be able to suspend Roy's entire body, especially if he's wearing medium/heavy armor. And I'm not sure if the arrow could even pierce the apparently rockey wall(and it if was dirt, it'd just give anyway).

I'm just being nit-picky here, so don't take me too seriously. It's mostly in good fun. Fantasy physics can overcome any obstacle!

[Albub]

I laughed until my eyes teared up at the arrow to the nuts. Haley may have taken the ranged pin, but it's just as likely there was a sudden rules lapse in favor of the plot. We'll have to see. That was one of the funniest Damn OoTS comics out there, it deserves a medal. I've only laughed that hard at I think 3-4 other comics, and most were within the first 150.

[Porthos]

"I just felt a great disturbance in the Force. It was if hundreds of fans of O-Chul cried out in terror.... and were suddenly silenced.

"I fear something terrible has happened." :smalleek:

[Sturmjaeger]

Arrow to the nads. Classic.

[JaxGaret]

Now, I'm not complaining about it, as I understand it's comic/DnD/plot-physics and thus cannot be explained and doesn't need to be realistic, but...

There's no way that an arrow through the nuts would be able to suspend Roy's entire body, especially if he's wearing medium/heavy armor. And I'm not sure if the arrow could even pierce the apparently rockey wall(and it if was dirt, it'd just give anyway).

I'm just being nit-picky here, so don't take me too seriously. It's mostly in good fun. Fantasy physics can overcome any obstacle!

There's a feat in the Complete Warrior called Ranged Pin that allows exactly that.

[Renegade Paladin]

Belkar needs to die a horrible, horrible death.

[JaxGaret]

O'Chul is going to die a horrible, horrible death.

Fixed it for ya :smallsmile:

[fractal]

There's no way that an arrow through the nuts would be able to suspend Roy's entire body, especially if he's wearing medium/heavy armor. And I'm not sure if the arrow could even pierce the apparently rockey wall(and it if was dirt, it'd just give anyway).
Regarding the first part, presumably Roy has armor protecting his groin? So the arrow pierced the armor as well as Roy's body. That's what's holding him up.

The second part is easy: magic arrow. Magic arrows can penetrate rock.

[Belkar's Left Foot]

OMGWTFHAX.....MiTD likes Transformers?!?! I wonder what he thought of the movie.......
And
NOOOOOO NOT HIS TROUSER TITAN, His rod of lordly might....will it ever extend again?

[Nu]

There's a feat in the Complete Warrior called Ranged Pin that allows exactly that.

I know that Ranged Pin can do something SIMILAR, but ranged pin works by using a projectile to pin the target's clothing to a surface. In this case, gravity and the weight of Roy's armor would surely break the arrow.

[Renegade Paladin]

Fixed it for ya :smallsmile:
It was just fine the way it was, thanks.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Dang.

Who wants to bet that they're going to end this with only Roy's head intact?

[Querzis]

Oh boy, you are indeed an evil man Rich Burlew, not only for O-chul but for the arrow in the nuts. The nuts are maybe just 1% of a man body but you just had to shoot it there right?

...I really wonder whats gonna happen to poor O-chul. By the way, now that O-chul is gone, the OOTS and Hinjo wont ever know that Miko blew up the castle.

[Bocc Kob]

Belkar needs to die a horrible, horrible death.

You would have preferred them to be weighted down too much to escape so MitD had two additional guests for his tea parties? Belkar made a tough call in a tight pinch. He's a hero!

[Krytha]

Look for O-chul in his debut as something weird from oriental adventures!

Why in the nuts though? She didnt even have any rope attached to the arrow?

[JaxGaret]

I know that Ranged Pin can do something SIMILAR, but ranged pin works by using a projectile to pin the target's clothing to a surface. In this case, gravity and the weight of Roy's armor would surely break the arrow.

The feat states "The target must be within 5 feet of a wall, tree, or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck and must be wearing clothing, armor, or other accoutrement."

Emphasis mine.

[North]

Argghh right in the trouser titan

[Porthos]

I know that Ranged Pin can do something SIMILAR, but ranged pin works by using a projectile to pin the target's clothing to a surface. In this case, gravity and the weight of Roy's armor would surely break the arrow.

I just checked the description of the feat, and it looks Book Legal to me. Especially if they were magic arrows...

If I were DMing this thing, I'd would certainly allow it, just to reward the creativity involved in such lateral thinking. :smallsmile:

[Klerik]

Ooooo... Glad Roy wasn't alive for that "ranged pin"...:smalleek:

[Gnome King]

Right in the...Ow...:eek:

[JaxGaret]

I just checked the description of the feat, and it looks Book Legal to me. Especially if they were magic arrows...

If I were DMing this thing, I'd would certainly allow it, just to reward the creativity involved in such lateral thinking. :smallsmile:

Agreed. RAW legal.

[RocketBard]

OMGWTFHAX.....MiTD likes Transformers?!?! I wonder what he thought of the movie.......
And
NOOOOOO NOT HIS TROUSER TITAN, His rod of lordly might....will it ever extend again?

I'm sure Durkon can fix it...

[Niveus Candidus]

Roy isn't a creature. He's a corpse, which is an object. An object with an arrow through his decomposing genitals, sure - but an object all the same. It would not be outside DM rulings to allow the arrow to pin him without the feat.

[Porthos]

Look for O-chul in his debut as something weird from oriental adventures!

Why in the nuts though? She didnt even have any rope attached to the arrow?

She didn't have time to attach the rope. If it is Ranged Pin (which it almost certainly is), Haley could only shoot at Roy as long as he was within 30 feet. If Haley had taken the time to get out a ropem attach it to an arrow, and then fire, Roy would have certainly been out of range.

[JaxGaret]

If it is Ranged Pin (which it almost certainly is), Haley could only shoot at Roy as long as he was within 30 feet.

I don't see any such range limit in the feat.

[Nu]

The feat states "The target must be within 5 feet of a wall, tree, or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck and must be wearing clothing, armor, or other accoutrement."

Emphasis mine.

Yes, I KNOW that. But I'm pretty sure gravity and the weight of Roy's armor would quickly equate to the DC 15 Strength check required to break free(and thus break the arrow).

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Ow, god...

[JaxGaret]

Yes, I KNOW that. But I'm pretty sure gravity and the weight of Roy's armor would quickly equate to the DC 15 Strength check required to break free(and thus break the arrow).

If it's a magical arrow, it would be much tougher to break than a regular arrow. I'm not sure if Cold Iron arrows (or arrows made from other materials besides wood) are stronger than regular arrows under the rules, but if so, then it could be one of those as well.

Regardless, inanimate objects like armor (and/or the force of gravity) don't get Strength checks, so it would be a houserule for the armor to break the Pin like that.

Interesting point though.

[busterswd]

Good comic.

But ugh... poor O'chul... :(

[Nu]

If it's a magical arrow, it would be much tougher to break than a regular arrow. I'm not sure if Cold Iron arrows are stronger than regular arrows, but if so, then it could be one of those as well.

Regardless, inanimate objects like armor (and/or the force of gravity) don't get Strength checks, so it would be a houserule for the armor to break the Pin like that.

Interesting point though.

It is true that a magic arrow could be pretty tough, and if anything could explain it, it'd be 'magic.' But realistically, a projectile light enough to quickly draw and shoot that far with a bow shouldn't be able to support a weight limit as large as Roy wearing armor.

I suppose it could be a super-strong light enchanted arrow that Haley was saving for just such an occasion, though ;)

[Bunyip]

Am I mistaken, or have the roaches (or at least one of them) started to take a much more active role in the plot? Previously, they mostly just made comments or one-liners.

:roach: Slaving as a hot stove.

[David Argall]

This has not been O-Chul's day. And it looks to be getting worse.

And if Roy is somehow ghostly aware of what is happening, he is very glad he is not alive.

And while Balker's tossing O-Chul to the MitD is morally defensible, he hardly qualifies as a hero for doing so.

[Krytha]

So then how did Roy's nutsack survive getting the arrow tugged out of a cliff wall, when the arrow is barbed, and hit the rock hard enough for it to bury and deep enough to support a 180-210 pound guy? It IS sticking through a not very robust section of... well, just skin basically.

[Hankosha]

Yeah. Roy's going to survive with Head intact, and They'll end up with him reincarnated as a Dire squirrel.

[WhatIsGravity]

Thus ends the Greenhilt family line.

[JaxGaret]

It is true that a magic arrow could be pretty tough, and if anything could explain it, it'd be 'magic.' But realistically, a projectile light enough to quickly draw and shoot that far with a bow shouldn't be able to support a weight limit as large as Roy wearing armor.

I suppose it could be a super-strong light enchanted arrow that Haley was saving for just such an occasion, though ;)

Magically enhanced equipment doesn't weigh any more than regular equipment, but is much stronger.

If it is indeed a magical arrow, no more explanation is necessary :smallsmile:

[CockroachTeaParty]

Wait... why did Haley shoot Roy in the family jewels? Was that how she got the rope attached? Must read thread... must find answers.

[Porthos]

I don't see any such range limit in the feat.

Huh. I accidentally transposed the Ranged Disarm requirements with the Ranged Pin requirements.

My bad. :smallredface:

Anyway, my point still stands for this reason: Haley was in an extreme hurry. To take out a Rope from her pack, attach it to an arrow and then fire it at Roy would be three standard/move-equivalent actions. So that means two rounds will pass before Haley can actually stop Roy from falling (Round One: Get Rope/Attach Rope to Arrow. Round 2: Fire arrow at Roy and stop him from falling).

And when you consider that Roy would fall 150 feet in the first round (presuming the chasm is that deep of course) the rope might not even be long enough to reach him. Also, even if it is long enough to reach him, the further he falls, the longer it takes Haley to pull Roy back up (which is the real critical part of the equation, IMO).

Since Haley had no idea what was happening with the CitD, I figure she literally thought every single round counted at the time. :smallsmile:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

All I can say is, "Oh gods! The MitD finally did something right!" I think Redcloak will be pleased now that they can interrogate O-Chul.

[Porthos]

It is true that a magic arrow could be pretty tough, and if anything could explain it, it'd be 'magic.' But realistically, a projectile light enough to quickly draw and shoot that far with a bow shouldn't be able to support a weight limit as large as Roy wearing armor.

I suppose it could be a super-strong light enchanted arrow that Haley was saving for just such an occasion, though ;)

I hate to get into "DnD logic" here, be we are talking about a system where a person can, quite literally, jump of a 1000 foot cliff, land on his head, and walk away after dusting himself off.

I think an arrow supporting a body is a pretty minor thing in the grand scheme of things. :smalltongue:

[Eogan]

If it's a magic arrow (or possibly a Cold Iron arrow), it would be much tougher to break than a regular arrow.

Regardless, inanimate objects like armor don't get Strength checks, so it would be a houserule for the armor to break the Pin like that.

Interesting point though.
And this would be why we're reading a comic that MAKES FUN of these rules.

No, it shouldn't happen. Yes, the rules support it. Now leave the poor catgirls alone.

Well, other than this one: the arrow was aimed down, perhaps it threaded through Roy's hip-bone. No one ever said she hit JUST his sack.

[JaxGaret]

No, it shouldn't happen. Yes, the rules support it.-

Why shouldn't it happen? D&D is a game, set in a game world.

Real world rules do not equal game world rules, even if the game makes a decent attempt to simulate them.

[Nu]

Magically enhanced equipment doesn't weigh any more than regular equipment, but is much stronger.


While that is true, it is also true that magic ranged ammunition is still considered 'destroyed' whenever it hits its target(and has a 50% chance to be destroyed when it misses). Given that, I'm pretty sure it would still be able to be destroyed unless it was very special enchantment that specifically didn't allow the arrow to be destroyed(which is, of course, quite possible).

Why do I get the feeling that Haley is going to explain how it worked in a very short blurb in the next comic :smallamused:

[caranha]

The strip was really fine. Arrow in the nuts + Belkar being evil + running away from the wordy MITD = cool.

Except for the roaches taking active part in the story. I thought that broke the mood REAL bad. :-/ The MITD could have stomped the ground by himself out of frustration.

[JaxGaret]

While that is true, it is also true that ranged ammunition is still considered 'destroyed' whenever it hits its target(and has a 50% chance to be destroyed when it misses). Given that, I'm pretty sure it would still be able to be destroyed unless it was very special enchantment that specifically didn't allow the arrow to be destroyed.

That's with a normal attack. The Ranged Pin attack doesn't entail destruction of the projectile used.

Not to mention the fact that it would render the feat useless; 'ah ha, I pinned you! *arrow immediately breaks, freeing target from pin*'

[Wings]

I'm pretty sure it's oesophagus, though haven't bothered to check atm...

[Nu]

That's with a normal attack. The Ranged Pin attack doesn't entail destruction of the projectile used.

Not to mention the fact that it would render the feat useless; 'ah ha, I pinned you! *arrow immediately breaks, freeing target from pin*'

I understand, but I'm pointing out the fact that normally magic ammunition can be broken by something as minor as impact--and therefore probably wouldn't be able to support Roy's weight. BUT I'm going to go with the theory that it was an arrow with a special "Unbreakable" enchantment, and Haley will mutter something about having to use it in the next strip.

[fractal]

While that is true, it is also true that magic ranged ammunition is still considered 'destroyed' whenever it hits its target(and has a 50% chance to be destroyed when it misses). Given that, I'm pretty sure it would still be able to be destroyed unless it was very special enchantment that specifically didn't allow the arrow to be destroyed(which is, of course, quite possible).
Destroyed = can't be fired again. That doesn't mean the arrow ceases to exist, or can't function in a non-firing capacity.

[Forealms]

That was awesome on so many levels... Not to mention :roach:'s "side-dish" line.

Great comic, Giant, that was excellent.

[JessmanCA]

That is one long-lasting Hold Person spell. Even if he has the Extend Spell feat, how long could it possibly last? Through the battle with the paladins, 2 escape scenes and a tea party with the MitD?

[SKarious]

Wow! Totally worth the wait.
Poor :mitd:, first his Power Rangers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html) and now his Transformers. Xykon is really cruel to him.

[erewhon]

That is one long-lasting Hold Person spell. Even if he has the Extend Spell feat, how long could it possibly last? Through the battle with the paladins, 2 escape scenes and a tea party with the MitD?

Liches have Paralyzing Touch, and it is permanent.

Hold Person is nothing. :(

[Porthos]

That is one long-lasting Hold Person spell. Even if he has the Extend Spell feat, how long could it possibly last? Through the battle with the paladins, 2 escape scenes and a tea party with the MitD?

It's actually the Lich's Paralyzing Touch in action. And I'm afraid to say that it is permanent in duration, unless gotten rid with an appropriate spell. :smallfrown:

ETA: D'oh. Ninjaed again!!! :smallyuk:

[Tordek]

Poor O'Chul. He'll no doubt be comming back at a suitably dramatic time, I hope.

[Bocc Kob]

As a lawn ornament. Hahaha!

[Wolfie_1066]

ROFL my favorite part is when the arrow hits roys corpse and haley goes: ...im sure durkon can fix that too... :smallbiggrin:

[kukn]

Muhehehe, awesome! :D I can't decide which bit is best - the MitD worrying about doing the right thing, the emon roaches, Belkar throwing away O-Chul (I liked him aswell, but, well, he isn't Belkar :) ), or Haley shooting Row in the groin...

[Snipers_Promise]

Best. Comic. Ever.

[ag30476]

It is true that a magic arrow could be pretty tough, and if anything could explain it, it'd be 'magic.' But realistically, a projectile light enough to quickly draw and shoot that far with a bow shouldn't be able to support a weight limit as large as Roy wearing armor.

I suppose it could be a super-strong light enchanted arrow that Haley was saving for just such an occasion, though ;)

If you think about [b]too[/too] much, you're not playing then game reading the comic right.

[Aris Katsaris]

I want Belkar to die so so much. This wasn't even funny, he just ditched O'chul and cowardisly lied about it afterwards.

The thing that aggravates me even more is that there are still (and forever will be) people who would call him no worse that "Chaotic Neutral". Just because they *like* him. I don't want to know those people. Actually I would prefer not to know that such people even exist because I don't know what it says about the status of morality in the world.

Just kill him please -- or have the Order of the Stick permanently disown him or something. This amount of evil allied with the good people is not even funny anymore.

[Etiainen]

OUCH! LOL I'm still wiping tears away from the laugh I had :smallbiggrin:

The best thing might be when Durkon should forget to fix Roy's nuts :smallwink:

[TDG]

Anyway, my point still stands for this reason: Haley was in an extreme hurry. To take out a Rope from her pack, attach it to an arrow and then fire it at...<snip>...

Erm, she lassoed him after she pinned him to the wall with the arrow. She didn't tie the rope to the arrow.

[Ronald_saveloy]

ROFL my favorite part is when the arrow hits roys corpse and haley goes: ...im sure durkon can fix that too... :smallbiggrin:

And if Durkon can't do it, three words:

Girdle of Feminity/Masculinity

[Nu]

I want Belkar to die so so much. This wasn't even funny, he just ditched O'chul and cowardisly lied about it afterwards.

The thing that aggravates me even more is that there are still (and forever will be) people who would call him no worse that "Chaotic Neutral". Just because they *like* him. I don't want to know those people. Actually I would prefer not to know that such people even exist because I don't know what it says about the status of morality in the world.

Just kill him please -- or have the Order of the Stick permanently disown him or something. This amount of evil allied with the good people is not even funny anymore.

Well, Belkar is out for his own survival/pleasure over everything else. In this case, O'Chul was slowing him down, and it's unlikely he could've maintained his balance and jumped over the pit while dragging O'Chul along. It's true he did ditch O'Chul and lie about it, but he didn't do it so much to 'be evil' as he did to protect himself. Not to say it was a good thing to do but it's not something that was written in the Book of Vile Deeds or whatever they call it.

[kierthos]

I think y'all are reading too much into the whole "would the arrow/nutsack support the weight of Roy" thing.

That being said, the MitD does not necessarily have to have an insane level of strength. Just the ability to cast Earthquake as a supernatural ability.

Fiendish earth elemental perhaps?

[Aris Katsaris]

Well, Belkar is out for his own survival/pleasure over everything else.

Yeah, that's the definition of evil, am pretty sure.


In this case, O'Chul was slowing him down, and it's unlikely he could've maintained his balance and jumped over the pit while dragging O'Chul along. It's true he did ditch O'Chul and lie about it, but he didn't do it so much to 'be evil' as he did to protect himself.

Not even the most evil individual ever does things just to "be evil".

[Holammer]

OMG, when I read the "... Did you... did you shoot Roy's corpse in the nuts" line.
I kinda regretted drinking some Cola at the same time.

[Porthos]

Erm, she lassoed him after she pinned him to the wall with the arrow. She didn't tie the rope to the arrow.

Sigh. :smallsmile:

I am mostly commenting on this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2918301&postcount=36) where the poster wonders why Haley didn't attach the rope to the arrow and fire it at Roy. All I am saying is that if she wanted to stop Roy from falling immediately, she had no choice but to fire right away. However she got the rope attached to Roy afterwards is irrelevant to my main point. :smallsmile:

But, yes, you are probably right that Haley lassoed Roy (which is her Use Rope skill in action, obviously :smallwink: ) instead of quickly climbing down and attaching it personally.

[The Glitter Ninja]

Takin' it in the nuts is always comedy gold. This is turning into "Weekend at Roy's".

[kierthos]

Not even the most evil individual ever does things just to "be evil".
Okay, flip it.

"Not even the most good individual ever does things just to "be good"."

Wait, that makes no sense. Of course good individuals do things just to "be good".

So why can't the reverse be true?

Answer: Well, it is true. Sometimes, evil people do evil things just to be evil. Maybe they also expect some gratification or reward, but you know, I suspect most "good" people do "good things" for the same reasons. (Gratification and reward.)

[Eldhrin]

Okay, flip it.

"Not even the most good individual ever does things just to "be good"."

Wait, that makes no sense. Of course good individuals do things just to "be good".

So why can't the reverse be true?

Answer: Well, it is true. Sometimes, evil people do evil things just to be evil. Maybe they also expect some gratification or reward, but you know, I suspect most "good" people do "good things" for the same reasons. (Gratification and reward.)

I think the closest Evil people get to doing things 'just to be Evil' is when they do unspeakably Evil things because they enjoy it, rather than because it helps them get something else that they want. Xykon does that sort of thing all the time, such as in the intro to Dungeon Crawlin' Fools.

SoD Spoiler:
He does a fair bit of it in Start of Darkness too. In fact, he's doing evil things just for fun right from the point where he discovers his sorceror powers. I'd say that's pretty much Evil for Evil's sake right there.

So they don't go out and say "Oh, what a lovely day, I think I'll do something unspeakably evil." They go out and say "Oh, what a lovely day, I bet it'd be fun to burn that farm down. The screams of the people trapped inside the building would reinforce my sense of personal superiority, and then their corpses would make useful zombies to serve my hedonistic desires."

Well, okay, they're probably not that self-aware, but the principle's the same.

Edit: Also, the :mitd: is the most fantastic, wonderful character ever.

[Fabio_MP]

*stomp*

rotlf

very nice, very very nice

I think the only way to destroy the MitD is to pit him against the snarl or to banish him....

still waiting for my "start of darkness"....

[Mordokai]

Belkar needs to die a horrible, horrible death.

Yes, please. Painful, if possible.


I want Belkar to die so so much. This wasn't even funny, he just ditched O'chul and cowardisly lied about it afterwards.

The thing that aggravates me even more is that there are still (and forever will be) people who would call him no worse that "Chaotic Neutral". Just because they *like* him. I don't want to know those people. Actually I would prefer not to know that such people even exist because I don't know what it says about the status of morality in the world.

Just kill him please -- or have the Order of the Stick permanently disown him or something. This amount of evil allied with the good people is not even funny anymore.

I would agree with this too. Whoever says he is CN after this is clearly delusional. To the user who said that Belkar is a hero: please tell me you're joking. This was the most cowardly action EVER! And I hate nothing more than cowards. What points Belkar had, he now lost them. At least in my book. When he kicks the bucket I will laught.


Answer: Well, it is true. Sometimes, evil people do evil things just to be evil. Maybe they also expect some gratification or reward, but you know, I suspect most "good" people do "good things" for the same reasons. (Gratification and reward.)

Actually, good people do good deeds because they know it's the right thing to do. If they get the reward after, all the better. But reward should never be a first priority to good character.

It was good comic, but I'm seriously dissapointed with Belkar's action. I suppose Rich has some plans with O'Chul, but until than this isn't something good to me.

[Rift_Wolf]

EPIC. MitD just gets better and better.

At first I thought Haley was shooting an arrow with a bit of rope attached. When I looked closer I realised this wasn't the case and was thinking 'Why did she just shoot him in the nuts?' Then I noticed it was to pin him to the wall.

[Megalomaniac2]

Wow. Between Belkar quoting Scarface, MiTD and the Roaches owning, and Roy and O-Chul suffering, this is the perfect episode.

[Trixie]

Well... Roy must be really strong. After all, I'm pretty sure that this particular bit of skin wouldn't hold an entire body (arrow wouldn't too, but let's leave that) so it must have exceptional hardness (from strength) :smallbiggrin:

[Nu]

Yeah, that's the definition of evil, am pretty sure.


Not necessarily. Selfish people can be neutral too(Belkar though IS evil, don't get me wrong, that is clearly established through his other actions), it really depends on how far you take it. I think one of the very definitions of a 'true neutral' person is that they go with whatever they feel serves their best interest. A neutral person could ditch O'Chul there and may not be considered evil, as they were just trying to survive and when it comes down to it, self-preservation was more important to them than trying to help someone. Lying about it is more debatable, but regardless, it's not as if Belkar pulled an act out of the Book of Vile deeds here.

[RealMad]

It was good comic, but I'm seriously dissapointed with Belkar's action. I suppose Rich has some plans with O'Chul, but until than this isn't something good to me.

I don't think Rich ever hid the fact that Belkar was evil. Why did you expect him to be good?

For Belkar, if it ever came down to a question of him versus someone he barely knew and didn't even liked, is there any doubt as to who he'd choose? Heck, even good characters make that choice sometimes.

It's actually a good thing that Belkar was evil so that the decision was made quickly. Roy certainly would have been wishy-washy about it but could very well have ended up doing the same thing.

Or maybe perhaps people were just offended by Belkar's callousness. If Belkar had said something to the effect, "I'm so sorry O'Chul, I hope you forgive me. Your sacrifice will be remembered", then maybe the reaction against Belkar wouldn't be so bad.

But if that's the case and it's just Belkar's manner really that offends, then that's a whole bunch of readers who are missing the point.

[ag30476]

I want Belkar to die so so much. This wasn't even funny, he just ditched O'chul and cowardisly lied about it afterwards.

It's no different than the old dump-the-food-to-distract-the-vermin-chasing-you-trick except of course he dumped a living human being. That's not cowardly. It's just evil. But then Belkar is evil.



The thing that aggravates me even more is that there are still (and forever will be) people who would call him no worse that "Chaotic Neutral". Just because they *like* him. I don't want to know those people. Actually I would prefer not to know that such people even exist because I don't know what it says about the status of morality in the world.

Well those people are idiots. That's reason enough not to want to know them. Belkar is evil. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=559967&postcount=4) The guy has to hide from detect evil and is not affected by spells like unholy word.



Just kill him please -- or have the Order of the Stick permanently disown him or something. This amount of evil allied with the good people is not even funny anymore.
Well now we can't have that. We like him. Plus he is a sexy, shoe-less god of war. And he's funny. You gotta give him that.

[Ariko]

:smallconfused: Am I the only person who expected Belkar to ditch O-Chul? It seemed to me that was the reason he was the one pulling O-Chul.

[kierthos]

:smallconfused: Am I the only person who expected Belkar to ditch O-Chul? It seemed to me that was the reason he was the one pulling O-Chul.
Well, I wasn't expecting it, per se, but I'm not surprised by it. And I don't fault Belkar for it either. But then, he is my favorite character.

I am kinda wondering why they didn't stuff Roy into the Bag of Holding (not like he can suffocate, what with already being dead and all), and both run off with O-chul.

And when the heck is the "not a booty call" talisman going to be used?

(And does Durkon even have 5000 gp worth of diamonds?)

[Brainfever]

An arrow to the nuts can't be that bad for Roy. First of all, he's got a d10 hitdie. Second, he's already dead, thus the damage doesn't even transfer. Third, is it even a critical hit? You don't even need your reproductive organs to stay alive like you need your brains or your heart, thus they're not vital organs from that point of view. The only thing that separates it from a simple wound in the arm is the fact that it hurts like hell if something happens to them (not a factor in DnD) plus the mental trauma associated (again, not a factor).

[Nu]

Well, I wasn't expecting it, per se, but I'm not surprised by it. And I don't fault Belkar for it either. But then, he is my favorite character.

I am kinda wondering why they didn't stuff Roy into the Bag of Holding (not like he can suffocate, what with already being dead and all), and both run off with O-chul.

And when the heck is the "not a booty call" talisman going to be used?

(And does Durkon even have 5000 gp worth of diamonds?)

Belkar is worried that Roy being stuffed in the bag will set off his Mark of Justice because it might count as Roy being in another plane.

[factotum]

Belkar explained why they don't want to put Roy into a Bag of Holding some episodes ago...you do read this comic, right?

Anyway, I seriously think this is nowhere near the most evil thing Belkar has done, so I don't understand the people making a fuss about it. Self-preservation is not an inherently evil trait--if it had been Haley towing O-Chul, and she had decided she had to let him go in order to save herself, I would not expect her to immediately switch from Chaotic Good to Neutral or Evil because of it.

As for the MitD having enormous strength, we already knew that when he punched Miko and her horse through the wall of a tower when trying to hit as gently as he could! Doesn't seem unreasonable that he could create his own personal earthquake just by stomping the ground hard enough.

[Trixie]

You know, I've registered just to answer that post. I've left my response to it waiting for a bit of time to clear my head... But well, I still think my response is valid.


I want Belkar to die so so much. This wasn't even funny, he just ditched O'chul and cowardisly lied about it afterwards.

An what you would do in his place, exactly? It's nice and easy to comment from a comfy chair "he is so evil!" Basically, you're asking a small halfling to drag a big man in heavy armor on an unstable ground. Oh, right. Let's assume that he does exactly what you wanted: gets his 1/2 load (being a small creature) and tries to drag him. Both fall into the hole. Haley, trying to rescue them from MitD is killed with Belkar. Hinjo and the rest wait for them until Redcloak comes with an army, owns them all and animates the PC's. Game over. Yeah, that would be sooo Heroic. Heroic stooopid (as Bob & Brian would say).

Belkar was exactly right: he simply hadn't got the resources nor time to drag O'chuul, and the longer they waited the longer the chance that the boat is destroyed or escapes without them. Yes, his comment hasn't shown any love for O'Chul. Why should it, exactly? They didn't know each other. I think that if Hinjo were to make some choice, only wording it with 'sacrifice' and 'praise' woven into sentence you would cheered at him. And that sickens me.



The thing that aggravates me even more is that there are still (and forever will be) people who would call him no worse that "Chaotic Neutral". Just because they *like* him. I don't want to know those people. Actually I would prefer not to know that such people even exist because I don't know what it says about the status of morality in the world.

Just kill him please -- or have the Order of the Stick permanently disown him or something. This amount of evil allied with the good people is not even funny anymore.

And here comes a reason for my post: The largest, most arrogant personal insult I've seen in these boards in months. Oh, it's sooo evil that all those people dare to have slightly different opinion that me! They should be burned at the stake! They DARE to think Belkar is funny, not O'Chuul!

And then you proceed to callous comments you want him to die horribly and how that would make you cheer. Except, you know, it's far more evil than most of the things Belkar did in the comic... And that you thought that instead of doing that doesn't make it any less evil. In all major religions horrible thoughts are equal to horrible deeds.

If you don't see a little discord in what you say and think, then status of morality in the world is indeed threatened. :smallmad:

[kierthos]

Belkar explained why they don't want to put Roy into a Bag of Holding some episodes ago...you do read this comic, right?
Yes, I do. What I have is a common problem known as "forgetting". It afflicts people of all ages, ethnicities and professions.

[Trixie]

It's no different than the old dump-the-food-to-distract-the-vermin-chasing-you-trick except of course he dumped a living human being. That's not cowardly. It's just evil. But then Belkar is evil.

So he should die with the rest of the Order to save someone who he doesn't even know. Yesss, that is sooo evil! Next time, Belkar, you should just fall to your death and let that lich take over the world. That would be sooo good and heroic!



Well those people are idiots. That's reason enough not to want to know them. Belkar is evil. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=559967&postcount=4) The guy has to hide from detect evil and is not affected by spells like unholy word.

If there are idiots on these boards, then those are people that view everything with their laser-narrow view: He is sooo evil! covardly! stooopid! unfunny!
And then: All the people who like him are sooo evil! covardly! stooopi...! So on, so on. Holier-than-thou types who pray and then proceed to beat a child or puppy senseless, and who then doesn't see anything wrong in what they are doing or saying.

You know, just like Miko, but far, far worse.

She at least was insane, which rehabilitates her somewhat. :smallmad:

[Porthos]

Yes, I do. What I have is a common problem known as "forgetting". It afflicts people of all ages, ethnicities and professions.

I think some posters are a little cranky because it has been asked (multiple times) in each and every discussion thread since Haley decided to grab Roy.

Now I personally don't mind the constant repetition. And I too get forgetful about a lot of things (heck, I'm lucky to remember happened to me yesterday :smalltongue:). But if a poster is a regular contributor to the Discussion Thread, I can see how they might be a bit annoyed at this point being brought up over and over and over again. :smallsmile:

[chorpler]

Or maybe perhaps people were just offended by Belkar's callousness. If Belkar had said something to the effect, "I'm so sorry O'Chul, I hope you forgive me. Your sacrifice will be remembered", then maybe the reaction against Belkar wouldn't be so bad.

But if that's the case and it's just Belkar's manner really that offends, then that's a whole bunch of readers who are missing the point.

Agreed. It's Belkar's manner that is really torquing people off here. The action was not just understandable, it was most likely necessary -- if Belkar could even make the leap across that chasm with O-Chul1 in tow, they still probably wouldn't be able to get away from the CitD with both of them. And much as I like O-Chul and am sitting here hoping (but not expecting) that something that will save him, I have to choose Roy and Haley and Belkar if it's a choice. Belkar's words may be harsh, but I sure don't condemn the action. I suspect pretty much every other member of the Order of the Stick would have made the same choice, but probably not until they had agonized over the decision for a long time ... perhaps, as you say, even waiting too long and causing everybody to be caught.

Much as it pains me to say it, I fear O-Chul is on his way to a horrible fate ... even if he just stays paralyzed and isn't tortured and killed and reanimated, I still find that a particularly horrible fate, perhaps since it's something that actually can happen to real people in real life, and I bet most other people also feel that being unable to move while still being conscious and able to feel everything happening to your body would be a pretty darn horrific fate.

Incidentally, I'm just reading the 7th Harry Potter book now, and I'm quite nervous about the possible fates of the characters ... and yet I find myself much more worried about what's going to happen to O-Chul. It's actually quite distracting!





1And how is that written? Looks like it's O-Chul in the strip, but I really want to write O'Chul every time, and lots of people DO write it that way.

[Aris Katsaris]

Okay, flip it.

"Not even the most good individual ever does things just to "be good".

Wait, that makes no sense. Of course good individuals do things just to "be good".

So why can't the reverse be true?

Because good and evil are different concepts, and what applies to the one doesn't always apply to the other. Good and evil aren't mere preferences like chocolate and vanilla icecream, they're radically different thought-processes.

Good people often do things because those things do good to others, because that's the right thing to do, because good beings understand the concept of altruism. The *most* good people actually don't do things to *be* good, it's not their own status that is in their minds, it's the well-being of those other people. (though caring about your own moral status is a decent means to keep you good, it's just the means, not the end of goodness)

Evil people do things for their *own* pleasure, without caring if they are "right" or "wrong". Even a person actively and consciously enjoying being evil, would have that enjoyment in mind, not evil for its own-sake.

[Porthos]

So he should die with the rest of the Order to save someone who he doesn't even know. Yesss, that is sooo evil!

It's not the fact that he dumped O-Chul that has got a few people upset. It's the callous disregard he has for O-Chul as he dumps him. The fact that he lies afterward is just icing on the cake.

And, lets face it, Belkar is designed to be controversial. Just like Miko, really. However, in Belkar's case, he is also designed to be funny. Which makes a big difference in a webcomic. :smallwink: So I don't think it should be a big surprise that some people are sick and tired of a controversial character, especially one that offends their moral point of view. But I think you will also find that Belkar-haters are in an extreme minority on this board, so it probably isn't that big of a deal when all is said and done.

All IMO, of course. :smallsmile:

[Dalan Graycloak]

And a new quote is born:

"...I'm sure Durkon can fix that too.":haley:

[Charles Phipps]

I have a simple guidepost for alignment that works wonders in my game.

Good people try to be altruistic and merciful to the world

Neutral people look out for themselves, their families, and friends

Evil people must actively harm others to gain their pleasure and fulfillment from life

As I said. Selfishness is neutral. Selfishness that requires you to see others harmed to be fulfilled is evil.

P.S. Is anyone else enjoying Weekend at Bernies Roy more than they ever did the living one?

I say keep him in the comic but keep him dead!

[Aris Katsaris]

An what you would do in his place, exactly?

Try to save us both. And if I was absolutely sure I couldn't save us both, then atleast I'd show some regret over that fact, rather than actually *throw* him towards the monster (it's not as if Belkar merely put him down you know) and lie about it afterwards.


Yes, his comment hasn't shown any love for O'Chul. Why should it, exactly? They didn't know each other. I think that if Hinjo were to make some choice, only wording it with 'sacrifice' and 'praise' woven into sentence you would cheered at him. And that sickens me.

Well, Belkar and you sicken me.


And here comes a reason for my post: The largest, most arrogant personal insult I've seen in these boards in months. Oh, it's sooo evil that all those people dare to have slightly different opinion that me! They should be burned at the stake! They DARE to think Belkar is funny, not O'Chuul!

I don't care if you think Belkar is funny. But if you think he's not Evil after all the things he's done, then you probably have no moral judgment, yes.


And then you proceed to callous comments you want him to die horribly and how that would make you cheer.

Actually I didn't say "horribly", and I didn't say it would make me cheer. I said I no longer want to see him in alliance with the Order of the Stick. Killing him off is the easiest way to do that, but publicly disowning is also fine with me. He's an evil murderer and it's no longer funny that all these Good characters tolerate him.


Except, you know, it's far more evil than most of the things Belkar did in the comic...

Ooh, come now, mention *one* evil thing you think Belkar has done. Given your style judgement, I don't think you could find one.


And that you thought that instead of doing that doesn't make it any less evil.

Hmm, wanting a fictional character killed off, vs actually murdering other people. Yeah those are about the same amounts of evil... NOT.


In all major religions horrible thoughts are equal to horrible deeds.

That's just three-times ironic:
- First you bash me for a *attitude* (which I didn't even possess -- I never said I would cheer his death, nor that he ought die "horribly")
- Then you bash me for *caring* about the attitude of Belkar (when you say that you're sickened that I might support Hinjo if he had done the same thing with a different attitude),
- Then you go again back to saying "horrible thought equals horrible deed".

Make up your damn mind about whether attitude matters or not. I think attitude and intent matters a great deal in determining the morality of an action. What's your stance on this?

[Miklus]

I really, really hope Durkon CAN fix that before he raises Roy...:smalleek:

My $0.02 on Belkar...It was probably the only thing to do. I doubt he could have made that jump with O-Chul in tow. But it's still not the kind of thing you get medals for. Belkars wording and the speed at which he made the decision does show that he is cynical and lacks respect for other people. And that maybe he si not as dumb as most people seem to think.

This reminds me of the old russian proverb: "When the wolfs close in on the sled, someone gets kicked off." In this case, O-Chul got kicked off...:smallfrown:

[Mr Teufel]

The MitD is dumber than a roach. :smalleek:

Admittedly they seem to grow them unusually smart wherever demon roaches come from. :smallwink:

Yes, Belkar's evil. This makes it easy for him to make a callous decision that others woud agonize over. But his moral difference and the twists and turns others have to make to accomodate him - or sometimes he's forced to accomodate them - are an endless source of humour for this comic. Lose Belkar, and you lose that moral tension. Much like if you lost Haley and/or Elan, you'd have lost the sexual tension in most of this comic. Opposites are necessary for tension, and tension is the source of humour when the tension is broken in unexpected ways.

[Spiryt]

The strip is fantastic.

:belkar: I nominate you, on account of you not being me.

And guys, can you drop it already? Those aligment discussions are completely pointless and lead only to flame.


Well, Belkar and you sicken me.

Statements like that aren't nice when people are trying to discuss politely.
If something sickens you better go make yourself mint tea or something :smalltongue:

[jamroar]

Yes, please. Painful, if possible.


It'll be pretty ironic if Belkar eventually winds up being killed by a Death Knightified O-Chul, seeing how all the OOTS characters' misdeeds always come back to haunt them at the most karmariffic time.

[darkgolem]

Bleh, can't anything turn out well?

[dr.cello]

Okay, flip it.

"Not even the most good individual ever does things just to "be good"."

Wait, that makes no sense. Of course good individuals do things just to "be good".

So why can't the reverse be true?

Answer: Well, it is true. Sometimes, evil people do evil things just to be evil. Maybe they also expect some gratification or reward, but you know, I suspect most "good" people do "good things" for the same reasons. (Gratification and reward.)

That's not how logic works, unfortunately. First I'm going to give an analogy, because it's about the equivalent of what you said: "Poor people don't try to make themselves poor." "Okay, let's flip it. Rich people don't try to make themselves rich. Oh wait, yes they do; that must mean it also applies to poor people."

An analogy is hardly a proof, though, so let's continue. In order to reverse a statement and make it logically say the same thing, it must be a contrapositive. "All X is Y" does not reverse to "All not-X is not-Y" logically. It reverses to "All not-Y is not-X." An important difference. Let's say X is "pennies" and Y is "copper." "All pennies are copper." To say "All things which are not pennies are not coper" does not logically follow from that; to say that "All things which are not copper are not pennies," does.

So let's apply this to the original statements. "No evil individuals do evil just for the sake of evil." Negatives make it trickier to word, so let's try to rephrase it without them: "All evil individuals have a reason to be evil besides merely 'to be evil.'"

The contrapositive here is not "All not-evil (good) individuals have a reason to be not-evil (good) besides merely 'to be not-evil (good)", but "All of those who do not have a reason to be evil besides merely 'to be evil' are not evil." Which is basically saying the same thing: there's no evil person who is evil just for the sake of being evil. This is, of course, only with respect to logic, and not really dealing with the meaning of your original statement.

With respect to its meaning, apart from not logically following, it doesn't quite work. Evil means morally wrong; if you think something is evil, that means it's something that you believe you shouldn't do. Doing evil just for the sake of doing evil means you're doing something just because you believe you shouldn't do it.

Superficially, this looks like you're being a rebel without a cause. Breaking the rules just because they're the rules. But the rebel believes the rules don't or shouldn't apply to him; he believes that he should break the rules. He's esteeming his freedom as higher than the authorities. Rebels without causes might do something just because it's against the rules, but they won't do something if they think it's wrong. They won't be murdering anyone just because it's against the rules, for instance.

Even those who are breathtakingly evil, those who do utterly vile deeds, have a reason to do them besides "it's the wrong thing to do." Maybe they are merely the purest embodiment of selfishness--I do this because it will benefit me or I will enjoy it. They might be trying to create a better world--I do this because it will ultimately make the world better. But they don't just say 'if I murder this random person, it will be evil, so I'll do that.' They might murder the random person because they enjoy killing, but that would be a reason besides it just being evil.

I do maintain that most people would rather do good because it benefits them in the long run than because it's the right thing to do, but it's possible to imagine someone who does good because it's right--any self-sacrificing hero, for starters. It actually would make sense. It doesn't cause people to say 'wait a minute, so the villain is doing evil just for the sake of doing evil? What kind of slipshod writing is this?'

The only exception to this general rule is in comic writing, when the villain is deliberately written to be ridiculous. But even then it's usually in name only; they usually have another reason to do their evil deeds.

[Aris Katsaris]

I have a simple guidepost for alignment that works wonders in my game.

Good people try to be altruistic and merciful to the world

Neutral people look out for themselves, their families, and friends

Evil people must actively harm others to gain their pleasure and fulfillment from life


This... has a connection with something I've been thinking. Namely that Active and Passive ought be seen as alignments in their own right.

Your system... doesn't coincide exactly with my thoughts. The old dilemma "Press a button and 10.000 people you don't know will die, but you will get 10.000 dollars." Would that be a neutral action according to this system? I would consider it a "Passive Evil" action to press this button if you did it for the sake of the money, and an "Active Evil" action if you did it both for the money and for the joy of causing the deaths of 10.000 people.

An "Active Chaotic Evil" (like Belkar) would murder because he enjoys murder and the infliction of pain themselves.
A "Passive Chaotic Evil" would murder or kill merely he wants to steal those people's possessions and its the most convenient way to do it.

An "Active Lawful Evil" would impose or support tyranny because he hates any other people being free or happy without his permission.
A "Passive Lawful Evil" would impose or support tyranny, because it's the easiest way to a secure a paycheck.

A "Passive True Neutral" character (like Varsuvius) would look out for themselves, their families, their friends, being balanced between Law and Chaos.
An "Active True Neutral" character would intentionally seek to balance Law and Chaos, Good and Evil in the universe.

[chorpler]

Good people often do things because those things do good to others, because that's the right thing to do, because good beings understand the concept of altruism. The *most* good people actually don't do things to *be* good, it's not their own status that is in their minds, it's the well-being of those other people. (though caring about your own moral status is a decent means to keep you good, it's just the means, not the end of goodness)

Evil people do things for their *own* pleasure, without caring if they are "right" or "wrong". Even a person actively and consciously enjoying being evil, would have that enjoyment in mind, not evil for its own-sake.

Yeah, but as has been discussed here a bajillion times before (and even on Friends for crying out loud), good people do good things because doing good things makes them feel good. Self-sacrifice makes them feel better than being selfish does. Ultimately, it's all about what makes them feel good. Man, those good people are so selfish! ;)

[philippos]

As much fun as it is to discuss the nature of evil....


Did the MitD get tired from using its earthquake (spell-like) ability, or what?

[chorpler]

As much fun as it is to discuss the nature of evil....


Did the MitD get tired from using its earthquake (spell-like) ability, or what?

That's what I'm thinking -- he was pretty worked up, he stomps on the ground and causes a major seismic event and opens up a few huge fissures in the earth itself, and then BLAMMO, all of a sudden he's exhausted. Pansy.

Either that, or Mama Bitterleaf's Secret +2 Circumstance Bonus Ingredient was a powerful sedative.

[jamroar]

As much fun as it is to discuss the nature of evil....


Did the MitD get tired from using its earthquake (spell-like) ability, or what?

Shouldn't the earthquake be extraordinary, though? I get the impression that was caused by the MiTD's freakish strength. But exactly how strong do you have to be for a medium/huge sized creature to cause a earthquake by stomping its feet? :smalleek: .

[Girl Wonder]

I still hold out hope for O-Chul, if only because I think ...

...it would be really nifty for an invisible V to rescue O-Chul by snatching him away when the MITD was distracted elsewhere.

[Aris Katsaris]

Yeah, but as has been discussed here a bajillion times before (and even on Friends for crying out loud), good people do good things because doing good things makes them feel good.


Well, i think you (and "Friends" and whoever else uses this argument) have it exactly backwards. IMO Good people sometimes feel good because they did a good thing, they don't do the good thing because it will make them feel good.

But even if you have it completely right it would still mean that some people get enjoyment out of the well-being of other people, and some people get enjoyment out of the suffering of other people. Those attitudes are not morally equal.

[chorpler]

Well, i think you (and "Friends" and whoever else uses this argument) have it exactly backwards. IMO Good people sometimes feel good because they did a good thing, they don't do the good thing because it will make them feel good.

I agree that people feel good aafter doing a good thing, but I think they choose to perform a good act in the first place because making the decision to act in a good way feels better than deciding to act in a bad way.


But even if you have it completely right it would still mean that some people get enjoyment out of the well-being of other people, and some people get enjoyment out of the suffering of other people. Those attitudes are not morally equal.

Oh, no, definitely not. As long as you have some kind of moral system, it doesn't matter what the ultimate motivation for action is -- you have treat people who are only concerned about themselves, or who enjoy making others suffer as bad, and people who enjoy helping people as good. And, of course, in D&D it seems that's exactly what defines Evil and Good.

[pentagram]

With a certain dread I enter the minefield that is discussing alignment...

Good and evil are absolute concepts in the D&D-world. Intentions and subject values counts for nothing, only the factual actions. Torturing someone is evil, whether you do it for your own pleasure or to save a city of thousand innocents.

Now, Belkar is evil, I think that is firmly established. His action in this strip would be neutral, though. O-Chul is in mortal danger and that is NOT Belkar's doing. He didn't paralyze O-Chul and he didn't drag O-Chul from the city into the clutches of the MitD. What Belkar does is not saving O-Chul from this mortal danger to better save himself. It really doesn't matter whether Belkar had run without even making an attempt to carry O-Chul along or if he drops him along the way, and it doesn't matter how he feels about it or what callous comments he does about the action. The only thing he does to O-Chul is not saving him in the interest of self-preservation. That is neutral.

Certainly, Belkar's feelings about the action and his callousness do depend on his evil alignment and we all know that Roy would have anguished a lot more if he had to do the same thing because he is good, but that doesn't change the action in any meaningful way as far as D&D is concerned. The action is still neutral.

Lies are seen neither as inherently good nor evil, but would be more of a chaotic thing.

[nagora]

Yeah, but as has been discussed here a bajillion times before (and even on Friends for crying out loud), good people do good things because doing good things makes them feel good.

This is just a tautological statement. If I said "people only do things because they want to"* no one would think it worth the breath. Simply reducing the class from "people" to "good people" doesn't actually make it any more insightful.

The fact that good things make this class of people feel good - and therefore want to do them - is what marks them out as good, just as the fact that doing evil things makes evil people feel good is what marks them out as evil.

*Forcing someone to do something is just a way of rearranging their priorities so that what they want to do and what you want them to do coincide.

[Charles Phipps]

This... has a connection with something I've been thinking. Namely that Active and Passive ought be seen as alignments in their own right.

My system is meant to be really really short but the idea is that neutral people balk at doing evil things (i.e. that will harm others) but will break the rules for personal gain when it doesn't appear to harm anyone. Obviously, people can swing one way or the other given motivation.

In D&D, there's no real difference between the Chaotic Evil drover who tortures animals and whips children who come near his carriage and the evil Xykon who destroys entire nations for the Hell of it.

As I told my Players. Alignment is a descriptor of how you act not WHY you act how you do.

Anakin is motivated by concern for his wife and his fascist nature, not by his Lawful Neutral turned Evil alignment.

[Trobby]

She didn't have time to attach the rope. If it is Ranged Pin (which it almost certainly is), Haley could only shoot at Roy as long as he was within 30 feet. If Haley had taken the time to get out a ropem attach it to an arrow, and then fire, Roy would have certainly been out of range.

Then what you should REALLY be asking is: How did Haley manage to get the rope securely tied around Roy without the risk of dropping him to his death?

...Animated Rope, Maybe?


I want Belkar to die so so much. This wasn't even funny, he just ditched O'chul and cowardisly lied about it afterwards.

The thing that aggravates me even more is that there are still (and forever will be) people who would call him no worse that "Chaotic Neutral". Just because they *like* him. I don't want to know those people. Actually I would prefer not to know that such people even exist because I don't know what it says about the status of morality in the world.

Just kill him please -- or have the Order of the Stick permanently disown him or something. This amount of evil allied with the good people is not even funny anymore.

...

Not even the most evil individual ever does things just to "be evil".
Except for, oh I dunno...in cartoons and comic strips where they are simply obsurd? Look, I'm not going to make an arguement that what Belkar did was right...in fact I'm absolutely 100% sure that what he did WAS evil. That is because Belkar is Evil. He's a selfish little halfling and he would do that to pretty much anyone if he was out to save himself...but the thing is, Belkar is NOT a real character. He's a fictional being, and the ammount of contempt he shows is meant to be obsurd. Yes, at some times you are supposed to hate him for what he does...but you should also remember that in the end, he almost always gets his cumuppance for his evil deeds, and then we all laugh at him 'cuz he's part of the comic relief group.

As for why the OOTS keeps him around...I think Roy said it before...that if they let him loose without somebody to keep him in check, he'd be doing MORE evil, and probably none of the good he is forced to do every now and again.

It's alright to hate him...but relax...this is a comic, and it is written by a man who is NOT evil, so you can bet five bucks that things will work out in the end.

And if that doesn't appease you, just remember that the Oracle already told us that Belkar's death sentance wasn't far off, so you won't have to wait for very long.


Now to post about what I actually came to post about in the first place.

...of course I just remembered that there's a whole topic for reporting typos, *second part, panel 2* so I really don't need to post about it at all. :smalleek:

[eilandesq]

The funny thing is that the "chaotic evil" solution that I had come up with for getting both Roy and O-Chul back to be resurrected (cut off their heads and destroy their bodies) might have been O-Chul's best bet in the longterm here if Belkar had quickly decapitated O-Chul, grabbed the head, and fled. Haley's reaction would undoubtedly have been memorable. . .

[oasisob1]

I've been reading this strip forever, but I finally found something worth posting:

I think I found the origin (http://141.164.133.3/faculty/Block/Blockarticles/roads1_vol7.htm) of the Umbrella Monster or Monster in The Dark...

[Morty]

Poor O-Chul... even paladins don't deserve that:smalleek:

[Lissou]

Hey, there is no need to hate Belkar. He's evil, get used to it. (You can hate him of course, but Rich isn't going to kill him because you want to, he's going to kill him because it's in the plot).
And, well, although he's definitely evil, I don't think anyone on this forum, in the same situation (in real life) would have acted differently.

[Spiryt]

And, well, although he's definitely evil, I don't think anyone on this forum, in the same situation (in real life) would have acted differently.


I wouldn't. Screw paladin, I want to live.

Seriously, why among all horrible deeds of Belkar, people are disgusted by non-evil one?

[NeonRonin]

Poor O-Chul... even paladins don't deserve that:smalleek:

Yes, but at least he didn't get the extreme piercing Roy just got. Ouch.

Well, at least he didn't suffer, being dead already... and yeah, better hope Durkon has a patch for that.

Great work as usual, Rich. Loved the MitD's banter... and the whole 'stomp the ground' bit? Beautiful. And while yes, it was a dirty thing for Belkar to do, it was exactly what the creepy little twit would do in such a situation, so let's not go too overboard on the 'I want Belkar to die' chanting. At least he had the stones to try and attack the MitD.

(Not that he actually DID anything, but still...)

Something tells me Redcloak ain't gonna be happy when the MitD shows off his new pet Mr. Stiffly. Keep up the good work, Rich!

[Elderac]

Poor O-Chul, but typical Belkar.

[heroe_de_leyenda]

-Regarding the :haley: Arrow in the Nads:

Haley didn't necesarily take Ranged Pin as a feat. For exaple, Whem i'm DMing, I just let creative players do cool stuff with their abilities if they come up with great ideas. Like the time haley threw an arrow at a collapsing wall and it crashed several hobbos behind it. there's no "Shoot the collapsing wall" feat. I think Rich has a similar approach at Role-Playing and specific-to-the-core game rules.

If a player of mine is in a HEROIC campaign of World-Saving, and drops the dead body of the party's leader in an earthquake and she says "I'll shoot an arrow to his Nads to pin him to the wall to prevent him to go fuether down!" I jdon't say "screw you! you don't have the Ranged Pin Feat (even though we don't own the book that contains it and you probably din't know it existed, and it is NOT in core rulebooks) I would probably say "You can try it, but you'll have to roll really high!" wich apparently Haley did.

-Regarding O-Chul, the MitD said he was going to lick the stew pot clean, not that he was going to eat him, so I think there might still be hope for O-Chul fans.

-Regarding :belkar: Belkar's Obvious Evil: this recent act is a good jab at tehj jaw of those who believe he is turning good (or neutral). Though, this act was not necesarily evil. A neutral character would DEFINETLY do tghe same thing if his own life was at stake, even many good character so... you can keep speculating! :biggrin:

[Havael]

"Wow, I didn't know I could to that!"

Should be "do".

[shaddy_24]

To everyone out there, I do think that was an evil act by Belkar. He didn't just lay O-Chul down , he actively threw him back to be eaten by the MitD. That seems evil to me. Leaving him there so you can escape would be neutral, throwing them at the monster is pretty evil.
And what I would have done? Similar to what Haley did to Roy. If she can lasso him, why can't she lasso O-Chul, especially if I left him lying at the edge? So, I would lay him down and jump across. I'd get Haley to lasso him like she did Roy and pull O-Chul accross the chasm. Then we all run away.
Personally, I do find some of Belkar's lines to be really funny. But if I met anyone like him in any sort of real life situation, I would be offended and would have nothing to do with them. An imaginary person acting like that I can handle. The real thing makes me feel sick. Seriously sick.

[Solara]

Wow, I guess one of these days I'm finally going to have to not ruin my enjoyment of a fantastic comic by coming to the forums. I mean, half the posts arguing about physics, half rehashing tired alignment debates with a pinch of flaming thrown in for flavor....fun stuff.

I was all excited at the events of the comic...the earthquake was awesome, the MitD was equally cute and scary, the roaches had dialogue, the whole 'rescue' of Roy had me alternately wincing and laughing, Belkar acted entirely in character both in the thoughtless attack and ditching O'Chul, and hey, he even had an intelligent idea about sneaking away! (I'm surprised Haley wasn't the one who thought of that actually, I think leadership my be making her lose her edge....and I do love that the 'know when to walk away, know when to run' thing came back to bite her.) And of course the last couple of panels were absolutely chilling and made me scared for poor O'chul...but then I made the mistake of coming here and now I'm mostly just annoyed. :smallannoyed:

[Yeril]

This comic brought me to one conclusion

Roy with Injury to the crotch + Miko with lay on hands = Cheesy Porno!

[Bendal]

Looks like Haley may have some explaining to do to Roy once he's brought back to life. "Hey, why do I have a scar down...here?"

As for O'Chul, looks like he's going to be a regular at the tea party for a while longer.

[Mordokai]

I don't think Rich ever hid the fact that Belkar was evil. Why did you expect him to be good?

For Belkar, if it ever came down to a question of him versus someone he barely knew and didn't even liked, is there any doubt as to who he'd choose? Heck, even good characters make that choice sometimes.

It's actually a good thing that Belkar was evil so that the decision was made quickly. Roy certainly would have been wishy-washy about it but could very well have ended up doing the same thing.

Or maybe perhaps people were just offended by Belkar's callousness. If Belkar had said something to the effect, "I'm so sorry O'Chul, I hope you forgive me. Your sacrifice will be remembered", then maybe the reaction against Belkar wouldn't be so bad.

Let me rephrase that. I didn't mean Belkar's action was good, I know he is evil. I don't expect him to be good. It's the way he dumped O-Chul that sickens me. Yes, Roy would be "wishy-washy", but I think in the end he wouldn't throw him away. If at least he told Haley that he throw him away, I might have been a little less pissed at him.

[QUOTE=Porthos;2918612]It's not the fact that he dumped O-Chul that has got a few people upset. It's the callous disregard he has for O-Chul as he dumps him. The fact that he lies afterward is just icing on the cake.

And, lets face it, Belkar is designed to be controversial. Just like Miko, really. However, in Belkar's case, he is also designed to be funny. Which makes a big difference in a webcomic. :smallwink: So I don't think it should be a big surprise that some people are sick and tired of a controversial character, especially one that offends their moral point of view. But I think you will also find that Belkar-haters are in an extreme minority on this board, so it probably isn't that big of a deal when all is said and done.

All IMO, of course. :smallsmile:

That would be what you call bullseye. Yes, many neutral and even few good characters would do the same, but at least they would show some regard over their actions. You could say that Belkar's action offends my morals, because they do. And yes, I hate him for what he has done. That just shows that Rich is a superb author and writer. Belkar can be funny, but it's actions like this that take him down on list of lovebale characters. All the way to rock bottom.


It'll be pretty ironic if Belkar eventually winds up being killed by a Death Knightified O-Chul, seeing how all the OOTS characters' misdeeds always come back to haunt them at the most karmariffic time.

I like the idea.

[chorpler]

This is just a tautological statement. If I said "people only do things because they want to"* no one would think it worth the breath. Simply reducing the class from "people" to "good people" doesn't actually make it any more insightful.

It's an argument against the notion that people doing good things are motivated by something fundamentally different than people doing evil things. They're both doing things because they want to, or in other words, making the choice that feels good to them. It's just that for good people, good choices feel good, and for evil people, evil choices feel good.


The fact that good things make this class of people feel good - and therefore want to do them - is what marks them out as good, just as the fact that doing evil things makes evil people feel good is what marks them out as evil.

*Forcing someone to do something is just a way of rearranging their priorities so that what they want to do and what you want them to do coincide.

OK ... I agree completely. If you want to alter somebody's behavior, alter what makes their choices feel good and bad, or what makes one alternative feel better than another.

[chorpler]

With a certain dread I enter the minefield that is discussing alignment...

Good and evil are absolute concepts in the D&D-world. Intentions and subject values counts for nothing, only the factual actions. Torturing someone is evil, whether you do it for your own pleasure or to save a city of thousand innocents.

This may not be the proper thread for this, but I'll ask anyway. I've seen a lot of people say this, but I don't understand how it can be true -- please help a D&D newbie understand. Surely intentions and motives must have some bearing on the situation...? I mean, take something like, say, killing somebody. Wouldn't it be evil if you did it for pleasure of feeling hot blood on your hands, or because you wanted his money, but not evil if you did it in self-defense?

[Milandros]

Not necessarily. Selfish people can be neutral too(Belkar though IS evil, don't get me wrong, that is clearly established through his other actions), it really depends on how far you take it. I think one of the very definitions of a 'true neutral' person is that they go with whatever they feel serves their best interest. A neutral person could ditch O'Chul there and may not be considered evil, as they were just trying to survive and when it comes down to it, self-preservation was more important to them than trying to help someone. Lying about it is more debatable, but regardless, it's not as if Belkar pulled an act out of the Book of Vile deeds here.


Not quite - I think that going "with whatever would suit their best interest" [without regard to the harm it does others] is close to the definition of evil. Neutral people aren't uncaring - 90% of the people on these boards, at least, are neutral in D&D terms. We care for our own, we like to feel virtuous as long as it doesn't involve too much self-sacrifice, we're a little selfish or greedy at times, we sometimes do things we probably shouldn't - like steal someone else's drink from the fridge, or have an affair, or similar - but there are lines we don't cross. We don't do *bad* stuff to people, or only very rarely. We also don't throw ourself in the way of a bullet to protect a stranger.

Actually, that's a pretty reasonable standard:

An evil person will kill someone else because of something he wants - either money, or revenge for petty slights, or because she rejected him, or because she's *his* property, damn it, and no damn infidel is going to marry my daughter, or just for fun and laughs because he really doesn't care. He'll be the one firing a bullet.

A neutral person will quite possibly jump in front of that bullet for the sake of their children, or another loved one. They'd shout for help or call the police if it was a stranger being murdered. In a society where calling for help could get you into trouble (the whole "yes, you saved this man's life but it hurt when you stopped his bleeding, so he's suing you for a hundred bajillion dollars for mental anguish" problem) then they'd walk past quickly feeling a little ashamed that they couldn't do anything. An evil person passing by would enjoy the spectacle, laugh, join in or similar.

A good person (in D&D terms) is quite likely to hurl themselves in front of that bullet even for a complete stranger. They'd put themselves at risk to help others, and risk their life to stop the killer from killing again. It's a certain willingness to put others ahead of yourself and your own pleasure that makes people good, not just a vague desire to do good things.

However, in this comic it's not the dumping of O'Chul that's the evil act, it's the almost-pleasure with which it's done. He's callously dumping a paralysed man who can hear him with a sort of "ha ha, you're toast" comment. It's not exactly a major act of evil - Belkar's murders have been far, far worse - but it's certainly a bad thing to do.

[Rufio]

You are a mean, mean DM writer. You do know this, right? :smallbiggrin:

Poor, poor O-Chul. :smalleek: Oh well, I guess Tsukiko will get her plaything after all. :smallyuk:

Well worth the wait.

Oh, I totally forgot about that. I guess she does! Great comic anyway. :smallsmile:.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Hmmm... A strangly controversial comic.

Roy gets a "Prince Albert" from Haley :smalleek:
Belkar shows us that he's actually Chaotic EVIL, not just Chaotic NAUGHTY. If Belkar were only Chaotic Naughty, Piffany might be able to help him, but the Belkster is out and out evil. :smallfrown:

More clues on what the MitD is, and to me, more proof that I'm on the right track. Which means I'm probably totally wrong...

The MitD is Minya, son of Godzilla. Seriously. That's my theory, and I'm sticking with it!

I'm suprised there hasn't been two-three threads begun on what type of evil Blackguardish living/undead creature Tsukiko is going to turn O-Chul into...

[BisectedBrioche]

:mitd: Mr Stiffly, you came back!

Best MitD line so far IMO. XD

[isocum]

am I mistaken or the stomp was actually just a tap on the ground?( no angry eyes, "stomp!" exclamation rather small and all that)

[Siwenna]

When I first saw the title I thought that MitD was going to be revealed as something shockingly cute....

Great comic though! I'm glad that Belkar is still Chaotic Evil.

[silvadel]

Wonder how many san o-chul has lost from being an aware piece of furnature... I mean he has "witnessed" quite a number of disturbing things... Probably more than we know of being with the mitd all this time....

Haley had better watch out -- she is gaining too many points in the eyes of Belkar...

[Wikkin]

/mourns the death of all remaining shreds of Roy's dignity

[Sisqui]

If O-Chul is going to die, I wish Rich would just hurry up and get it over with. This prolonged suspense is both tortuous and undignified for him :smallfrown: As if he hasn't been through enough already.

[Dervag]

My entire reaction sums up as:

My god but this is a bad day for the Order of the Stick!:smalleek:

[Amon Star]

Well, what can I say about the recent comic. Many many things, but I'll start by saying it was Uber. Pure Uber on a Stick!

So, O-Chul is still the guest of :mitd:. Also, more evidence as to how powerful :mitd: is. Was the a magical power, or just pure strength? Also, does this through any more light on :mitd: alignment?

The :roach: was great. They're becoming characters in there own right. Soon, they will be revealed as the Snarl's Avatars!

One last thing before a go. I know that :haley: didn't do it deliberately, but man she's a good shut to hit such a small target. :tongue:

[Iranon]

Selfish (expedient) acts do not matter much in the grand scale of alignment, in my opinion:

Being generally pleasant because life is easier when you are well-liked doesn't strike me as truly Good (unless the sacrifices far outweigh the possible gains).
Likewise, I wouldn't count misdeeds for tangible benefits such as theft as Evil acts (again, unless the suffering inflicted on the victim is entirely disproportional to the gain of the perpetrator).
The good/evil connotations of expedient acts might pull someone towards Neutral from the far side when there is a clear trend, but certainly not more.

While this sounds unrealistically detached, strong emotions might well be involved in those 'expediency calculations': Most people can be pushed to perform acts outside their normal alignment bracket when under pressure.
If you consider yourself Good - exactly how far would you be willing to go if someone held your family hostage? If you consider yourself Evil - just how many insipid acts of apparent kindness would you perform to reach your true goals?

***

Non-expedient acts for personal satisfaction are more telling in my opinion: Anonymous donations (no benefits from having someone's gratitute) or gratuitious cruelty (risking grave repercussions, for no tangible gain) are decidedly non-neutral.

***

Ditching someone else to save yourself can be reconciled with any alignment... although I would expect Good characters to question themselves intensely about it, unless they are extremely aloof by nature.
The callous way Belkar did this is more telling, but really... if you are abandoning someone, how much does it matter if you are nice about it?

[MReav]

O-Chul's only hope is to get two teleporting wizards. One teleports in, the other has a readied action to teleport out the second he grabs O-Chul.

And honestly: O-CHUL IS STILL NOT HAPPY!!

[Scutatus]

I really do not understand why :haley: shot at :roy: in the first place... Pent up aggression?

As several have stated, Haley shot Roy with her arrow in order to pin him to the rock face to stop him falling, giving her time to lassoo him. So not pent up aggression but precisely the opposite, she's trying to save him. She just happened to pin him through his sensitive bits is all...ow. Good thing he's already dead really. And since he IS dead it doesn't really matter where she shot him does it? He's already desd. He can't feel pain and he has no need for his "family jewels" any more. The dead don't breed.

If he miraculously gets revived in true D&D Style the reset button will conveniently be pressed and his many wounds will also heal as if they never were. Even his clothes and armour will repair themselves. It will be like he was never even hurt, let alone dead as a dodo. Ah, don't you just love roleplay games? In short, any further wounds his corpse receives now are irrelevant (and a potential source of comedy). Hence the arrow between the legs gag.

[Snipers_Promise]

That's not how logic works, unfortunately. First I'm going to give an analogy, because it's about the equivalent of what you said: "Poor people don't try to make themselves poor." "Okay, let's flip it. Rich people don't try to make themselves rich. Oh wait, yes they do; that must mean it also applies to poor people."

An analogy is hardly a proof, though, so let's continue. In order to reverse a statement and make it logically say the same thing, it must be a contrapositive. "All X is Y" does not reverse to "All not-X is not-Y" logically. It reverses to "All not-Y is not-X." An important difference. Let's say X is "pennies" and Y is "copper." "All pennies are copper." To say "All things which are not pennies are not coper" does not logically follow from that; to say that "All things which are not copper are not pennies," does.

So let's apply this to the original statements. "No evil individuals do evil just for the sake of evil." Negatives make it trickier to word, so let's try to rephrase it without them: "All evil individuals have a reason to be evil besides merely 'to be evil.'"

The contrapositive here is not "All not-evil (good) individuals have a reason to be not-evil (good) besides merely 'to be not-evil (good)", but "All of those who do not have a reason to be evil besides merely 'to be evil' are not evil." Which is basically saying the same thing: there's no evil person who is evil just for the sake of being evil. This is, of course, only with respect to logic, and not really dealing with the meaning of your original statement.

With respect to its meaning, apart from not logically following, it doesn't quite work. Evil means morally wrong; if you think something is evil, that means it's something that you believe you shouldn't do. Doing evil just for the sake of doing evil means you're doing something just because you believe you shouldn't do it.

Superficially, this looks like you're being a rebel without a cause. Breaking the rules just because they're the rules. But the rebel believes the rules don't or shouldn't apply to him; he believes that he should break the rules. He's esteeming his freedom as higher than the authorities. Rebels without causes might do something just because it's against the rules, but they won't do something if they think it's wrong. They won't be murdering anyone just because it's against the rules, for instance.

Even those who are breathtakingly evil, those who do utterly vile deeds, have a reason to do them besides "it's the wrong thing to do." Maybe they are merely the purest embodiment of selfishness--I do this because it will benefit me or I will enjoy it. They might be trying to create a better world--I do this because it will ultimately make the world better. But they don't just say 'if I murder this random person, it will be evil, so I'll do that.' They might murder the random person because they enjoy killing, but that would be a reason besides it just being evil.

I do maintain that most people would rather do good because it benefits them in the long run than because it's the right thing to do, but it's possible to imagine someone who does good because it's right--any self-sacrificing hero, for starters. It actually would make sense. It doesn't cause people to say 'wait a minute, so the villain is doing evil just for the sake of doing evil? What kind of slipshod writing is this?'

The only exception to this general rule is in comic writing, when the villain is deliberately written to be ridiculous. But even then it's usually in name only; they usually have another reason to do their evil deeds.

Preach It Brother!

Ps. I think the monster in the darkness is cthulhu.

[Nathander]

You would have preferred them to be weighted down too much to escape so MitD had two additional guests for his tea parties? Belkar made a tough call in a tight pinch. He's a hero!

No, he didn't. If Belkar actually had any morality issues, then it would have been a tough call. Rather, it was an incredibly easy call for Belkar: with his hatred of paladins, he saw no reason to keep O'chul with them as he was slowing him down, and threw him back to save himself. Belkar's act was an evil one, as are nearly all of his acts.

Otherwise, simply awesome comic. From MiTD's discussion of what to do, to Haley shooting Roy, to going back to the fact that the MiTD still doesn't understand about "Xykon's brothers"...utterly awesome.

Out of curiousity, does anyone else feel bad for MiTD? Now, it's easy to feel bad for O'chul, but the continued showing of MiTD's childishness/cluelessness makes me...well, feel bad for the poor thing. I wonder how much of it's evil is actually in it's nature, and how much is in it's nurture.

[Sisqui]

Actually, when you look at the comic, the gap Belkar has to jump is very, very small. He probably would have had the strength to jump that distance even with O-Chul. And, if not, he could just as easily have thrown O-Chul forward, over the gap, than backwards, down the hill.

[Blaznak]

Hey! That's a pretty cool effect for the MitD to cause. This guy totally rocks! Apparenly he also has a circular logic capability to cause a serious case of the brain spins. Fun stuff!

Finally, Belkar ditching a guy to escape is SOOOooo Belkar!

Wheee....
Later!

[malakim2099]

Belkar is CE, of course he tossed O-Chul back. Heck, he's only got two demons and a slaad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) for his inner conscience.

Besides, as someone pointed out, Tsukiko now has someone to play with! And considering how much damage he's taken so far, as well as the act of betrayal by one of Hinjo's trusted PC friends (Belkar), he's going to be one mean, tough, PO'd death knight or whatever. :smallbiggrin:

As far as the arrow to the Trouser Titan... well, IF Roy is maimed, there's always Regenerate (which Durkon can cast, being 13th level). :smallcool:

[Username]

I dunno, I don't think the MITD is going to want to give up his new friend, I think O-Chul may end up ironically protected by the MITD (protected from being turned into some sort of undead, not from the mind-shattering humiliation). I hope he manages to get out the the situation alive eventually, I want to see just how long he screams when he's finally un-paralyzed.

[Porthos]

Actually, when you look at the comic, the gap Belkar has to jump is very, very small. He probably would have had the strength to jump that distance even with O-Chul. And, if not, he could just as easily have thrown O-Chul forward, over the gap, than backwards, down the hill.

Yeah, but then again, we all know what Belkar thinks about performing (quasi)-good acts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) when he doesn't want to do them. :smallbiggrin:

But, yes, Belkar could have tried to throw the body across the gap (he's proven that he has a halfway decent STR - otherwise he couldn't kill as nearly as many people has he does with his daggers). But if he did that, then he wouldn't be Belkar, now would he? :smalltongue:

[Haruki-kun]

that looked...... so..................... painful................. I think I'm scarred for life.

[Nathander]

I agree with Username; I kind of have the feeling that MiTD may actually be fairly protective of his toy, and I doubt that Xykon, at least, would have a problem with him keeping it. Redcloak possibly could, and possibly demand that O'chul be truly killed, though it's unlikely Xykon would care, especially after explaining that his paralyzing touch has an infinite duration unless dispelled.

Really, though, I know that the first thing I'd do if I were O'chul and I was unparalyzed would be to smite Belkar upside his head.


But, yes, Belkar could have tried to throw the body across the gap (he's proven that he has a halfway decent STR - otherwise he couldn't kill as nearly as many people has he does with his daggers). But if he did that, then he wouldn't be Belkar, now would he?

Exactly. Belkar is a horrific, evil bastard, but a likeable horrific evil bastard.

[DragonTounge]

How long does paralyzing touch last?! Awsome comic. Just classic.

[Fighteer]

As far as the arrow to the Trouser Titan... well, IF Roy is maimed, there's always Regenerate (which Durkon can cast, being 13th level). :smallcool:
Raise Dead restores the body to full health as long as there aren't any parts physically missing. Unless actual amputation was involved, the Trouser Titan is safe.

As for the perennial and unwinnable alignment debate, while it's true that the majority of people act from selfish motives most of the time, that's the definition of Neutral, not Good. The vast majority of people, including you and I, are Neutral. It takes a significant committment to non-selfish behavior to qualify as Good, just as it takes a decent amount of acting for the detriment of others to qualify as Evil.

Adventurers are an exception to the general rule because they are special. They have a committment to something or they would never have left their homes for a life of hardship and peril. Even in Belkar's case, he's committed to something - enjoyment of life through the removal of the same from other living creatures.


How long does paralyzing touch last?! Awsome comic. Just classic.
Forever, unless cured by Remove Curse, Remove Paralysis, or similar magic.

[Nathander]

How long does paralyzing touch last?! Awsome comic. Just classic.

Forever, unless dispelled.

[Freelance Henchman]

*cringe* Nice shooting there, Haley. This is sort of turning into "Weekend at Roy's" isn't it?

[Bocc Kob]

If Belkar truly were the super evil (as opposed to just kinda evil or pretty evil) jerk some of you are making him out to be...

Why did he drag Mr. Stiffly any distance at all? He could have just as easily said "look, he's just some dead-weight NPC whose only purpose in life was changing Mr. Scruffy's cat litter. He's better off here." Would Haley really have stopped to object in the middle of sneaking away to safety?

It's not like Haley forced him to drag O'Chul with them, he did it completely on his own and only let go when it became clear that there was a strong possibility he'd be killed if he didn't escape right then.

And as for "lying", well it's true Belkar lost his grip. When he tossed him away as a distraction. :smallbiggrin:

[Fighteer]

If Belkar truly were the super evil (as opposed to just kinda evil or pretty evil) jerk some of you are making him out to be...

Why did he drag Mr. Stiffly any distance at all? He could have just as easily said "look, he's just some dead-weight NPC whose only purpose in life was changing Mr. Scruffy's cat litter. He's better off here." Would Haley really have stopped to object in the middle of sneaking away to safety?

It's not like Haley forced him to drag O'Chul with them, he did it completely on his own and only let go when it became clear that there was a strong possibility he'd be killed if he didn't escape right then.

And as for "lying", well it's true Belkar lost his grip. When he tossed him away as a distraction. :smallbiggrin:
Comic #475. Haley: "We've got to get them both out of here."

I realize ADD is a fad these days, but 2 comics ago? You even have Belkar asking if he can kill a child. C'mon, people!

[Bocc Kob]

Just like "we don't need to set a tent on fire", right?

Even after the earth-cracking roar of "STOP!" and being completely unable to damage MitD, Belkar still tried to drag O'Chul to safety as long as he could until he realized they couldn't make it out while dragging two dead weights.

[Freelance Henchman]

Just like "we don't need to set a tent on fire", right?

Even after the earth-cracking roar of "STOP!" and being completely unable to damage MitD, Belkar still tried to drag O'Chul to safety as long as he could until he realized they couldn't make it out while dragging two dead weights.

I've said all along Belkar's Chaotic Neutral at worst.
/kidding
//exasperated

[Fighteer]

Just like "we don't need to set a tent on fire", right?

Even after the earth-cracking roar of "STOP!" and being completely unable to damage MitD, Belkar still tried to drag O'Chul to safety as long as he could until he realized they couldn't make it out while dragging two dead weights.
Haley is in charge. Haley tells Belkar to help drag O'Chul. Belkar agrees because he more or less obeys Haley until it becomes inconvenient. Plus, I can imagine him looking forward to taunting or tormenting the poor paladin later. An opportunity to mess with his mind while helpless? How could Belkar resist?

The instant it becomes less convenient to carry O'Chul than to preserve his own skin, Belkar makes the decision to drop him without the slightest hesitation or remorse.

I suppose I should no longer be surprised by the amount of time people spend trying to justify Belkar's actions. You can appreciate the role he plays in the comic without making up phony excuses for him.

[pjackson]

I hate to get into "DnD logic" here, be we are talking about a system where a person can, quite literally, jump of a 1000 foot cliff, land on his head, and walk away after dusting himself off.

Compared to real life where a man can jump out of a plane at 7000 feet with a parachute that didn't work and walk away afterwards. ((Al Deere - Nine Lives)
Though he did need help to get out of the cess pool he landed in.

[Chronos]

I'd just like to point out that, dire though O-Chul's situation may be, it's still far better than it was three comics ago. He's now the paralyzed, helpless guest of a terribly destructive creature, but that was the case before, too. The difference is that now, at least, the heroes know that he's still alive, and where he is, so there's some hope for some sort of rescue.

[Alysar]

For everyone who has a problem with Roy's full weight being supported by a single arrow through his groin....


I sense a great disturbance in the force, as if a million catgirls cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.

[Baalzebub]

lol^1000. :smallbiggrin: One of the very best, I hope Durkon remove that arrow before resucitating Roy. ouch!:smalleek:

I believe this will happen to O-chul

He'll be carried to Tsukiko, and she'll kill him and turn him into an undead. Then, with a bluff check from Xykon he'll be turned into a Blackguard or a Death Knight

[Tobrian]

NOOOOOO! O'Chul!!! Poor guy. :smallfrown: If he's really still alive he's slowly going insane. In retrospect the most merciful fate for him would have been if the fall had killed him long ago. But he'll still be zombiefied, I'm afraid. There's no way in heaven or hell that Hinjo can can get to him to rescue him.


Hmmm... A strangly controversial comic.

Roy gets a "Prince Albert" from Haley :smalleek:

What sort of geek am I that I got that reference? :smalleek: I mean, yres, I'm German, but it's not the sort of thing we learn in school...

Well technically the prince's manly piece wasn't pierced with an arrow... wasn't it the Aztec or Mayan nobles who pierces various bits of their bodies, like their tongues, with arrows, to sacrifice blood in religious rituals?

Anway...

There's a feat called "ranged pin"? :smallconfused: Whoa. Seriously, when I saw Haley shooting an arrow I thought she had bound the rope to the arrow and wanted to pull Roy back up via the arrow stuck in him. I merely wondered why there was no rope visible, and thought maybe it was a magical arrow of ropiness. *cough*

A rather disturbing comic stip.

[Porthos]

Compared to real life where a man can jump out of a plane at 7000 feet with a parachute that didn't work and walk away afterwards. ((Al Deere - Nine Lives)
Though he did need help to get out of the cess pool he landed in.

I figured someone might bring one of those one in a million cases up. So, instead, I'll just say one word:

Evasion.

Nuff said. :smallbiggrin:

(and before someone tries to argue Evasion, I'll just say that there are waaaaay to many Extraordinary Abilities in DnD that would never, ever, ever work in the Real World.)

Please, won't somebody think of the poor catgirls? :smalltongue:

[Tundar]

This comic is loaded with great one-liners.

"Durkon can fix probably that"
"Now who's the side dish, halfling?"
"I suck as a monster"
The transformer joke

And who would have know that Belkar listens to country & western music :smallbiggrin: (do a Google for the run/walk quote and add kenny rogers)

Btw, MitD is reminding me more and more of the 2nd ed Tarrasque albeit a tad smaller and better restrained.

[Emperor Ing]

BWHAHAHAH!!! The :mitd:'s power unleashed! >:D

[ElphabaFanatic]

Yay :haley:! =D

[Porthos]

And who would have know that Belkar listens to country & western music :smallbiggrin: (do a Google for the run/walk quote and add kenny rogers)

We already knew that the Belkster was a fan of Kenny Rogers. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html) :smallsmile:

In fact, I figured that this strip was intentionally referencing that one (what with Belkar throwing the quote right back in Haley's face). :smallwink:

[Megalomaniac2]

I've been reading this strip forever, but I finally found something worth posting:

I think I found the origin (http://141.164.133.3/faculty/Block/Blockarticles/roads1_vol7.htm) of the Umbrella Monster or Monster in The Dark...

Um... this is a paper about private property rights. Please to explain it, ahey-hoy.

Also: I thought it was so awesome that MiTD's earthquake was caused by just a tiny 'stomp'.

[Emperor Ing]

hes like 5X epic level or something! Im thinkin its PunPun, oh that'd be sooo frickin twisted and awesome, a kobold diety on stilts! :smallsmile: :smallsmile:

[Magistrate]

And this is why D&D fails for trying to map and enforce a strict system of morality. I suppose that is why this comic exists, though, to make snipes at it with tongue-in-cheek comments and scenarios.

[Bocc Kob]

I suppose I should no longer be surprised by the amount of time people spend trying to justify Belkar's actions. You can appreciate the role he plays in the comic without making up phony excuses for him.

As opposed to the amount of time people spend trying to condemn them? :smalltongue:

[Ariko]

I figured someone might bring one of those one in a million cases up. So, instead, I'll just say one word:

Evasion.

Nuff said. :smallbiggrin:

(and before someone tries to argue Evasion, I'll just say that there are waaaaay to many Extraordinary Abilities in DnD that would never, ever, ever work in the Real World.)

Please, won't somebody think of the poor catgirls? :smalltongue:

Wow, I thought Evasion against falling damage only worked in HGttG

[Fighteer]

As opposed to the amount of time people spend trying to condemn them? :smalltongue:
Heh. By any rational system of justice, Belkar would have been executed a long time ago. As Roy says, the world is better off with Belkar in a situation where someone can channel his destructive impulses toward a non-evil end. Fortunately, he doesn't care who he kills as long as he gets to hear it scream.

I don't wish Belkar would DIAF. I'd rather he stick around so we can continue to be entertained by his casual disregard for morality in a party that's supposed to be the goodguys. :smallsmile:

[nagora]

It's an argument against the notion that people doing good things are motivated by something fundamentally different than people doing evil things. They're both doing things because they want to, or in other words, making the choice that feels good to them. It's just that for good people, good choices feel good, and for evil people, evil choices feel good.

Well I'd personally say that being motivated by good instead of evil is about as fundimental as it gets. Just saying that they're both examples of motivations and therefore the same, seems a fairly weak connection to me.

But I would agree that people who do things that they aren't motivated to do would be somewhat more notable insofar that they'd be insane.

[Devoured_Dude]

Thanks for the triple-size episode, Rich!

I see Surfing HalfOrc beat me to saying that Roy got an impromptu Prince Albert (ya sicko!) but I wonder, if he can now put jewelry there, does it count as an equipment slot?

It would be very funny if O-Chul was the the only one who could undo Belkar's Mark of Justice...

I'm beginning to wonder if the Monster in the Darkness is just a really min-maxed PC with Wis and Int as dump stats.

[Nu]

Not quite - I think that going "with whatever would suit their best interest" [without regard to the harm it does others] is close to the definition of evil. Neutral people aren't uncaring - 90% of the people on these boards, at least, are neutral in D&D terms. We care for our own, we like to feel virtuous as long as it doesn't involve too much self-sacrifice, we're a little selfish or greedy at times, we sometimes do things we probably shouldn't - like steal someone else's drink from the fridge, or have an affair, or similar - but there are lines we don't cross. We don't do *bad* stuff to people, or only very rarely. We also don't throw ourself in the way of a bullet to protect a stranger.

Hold on. You completely ADDED the statement "without regard to the harm it does to others." I never said that, and the player's handbook doesn't say that either. I'm going by what the PLAYERS HANDBOOK SAYS on a true neutral character. And I would tend to agree that putting someone in grave danger in order to save yourself is NEUTRAL, especially when Belkar had no obligation to save O-Chul. No one is obligated to put the lives of others above their own. An exceptionally good person may do so, but you can't say someone is EVIL for not doing so. That's just a completely unreasonable standard. Of course, I maintain that Belkar is evil, but this is not an evil action taken by him.


An evil person will kill someone else because of something he wants - either money, or revenge for petty slights, or because she rejected him, or because she's *his* property, damn it, and no damn infidel is going to marry my daughter, or just for fun and laughs because he really doesn't care. He'll be the one firing a bullet.

A neutral person will quite possibly jump in front of that bullet for the sake of their children, or another loved one. They'd shout for help or call the police if it was a stranger being murdered. In a society where calling for help could get you into trouble (the whole "yes, you saved this man's life but it hurt when you stopped his bleeding, so he's suing you for a hundred bajillion dollars for mental anguish" problem) then they'd walk past quickly feeling a little ashamed that they couldn't do anything. An evil person passing by would enjoy the spectacle, laugh, join in or similar.

A good person (in D&D terms) is quite likely to hurl themselves in front of that bullet even for a complete stranger. They'd put themselves at risk to help others, and risk their life to stop the killer from killing again. It's a certain willingness to put others ahead of yourself and your own pleasure that makes people good, not just a vague desire to do good things.

However, in this comic it's not the dumping of O'Chul that's the evil act, it's the almost-pleasure with which it's done. He's callously dumping a paralysed man who can hear him with a sort of "ha ha, you're toast" comment. It's not exactly a major act of evil - Belkar's murders have been far, far worse - but it's certainly a bad thing to do.

I don't really see Belkar SAYING something like that to O-Chul as being evil. What he said was that if it came down to a choice between him and O-Chul who'd have to die, he would choose O-Chul, which is frankly, neutral. Throwing O-Chul at the MitD would presumably slow the creature down, so it's reasonable to understand why Belkar would do it, even if it wasn't the most honorable thing to do. Yeah, he lied about it afterwards, but I probably would too in order to avoid a lecture from Haley(she is good-aligned after all), because that wasn't the time or place for her disdain. Belkar was right in saying they had to leave immediately or they'd be putting themselves--AND OTHERS, those on the boat--in greater danger.

Yes, Belkar is evil. No, this was not an evil act on his part. It was neutral. Belkar didn't toss O-Chul back because he hated him and wanted to see O-Chul suffer, he tossed him back because it was his best chance at survival. That's all.

[Twilight Jack]

Thanks for the triple-size episode, Rich!

I see Surfing HalfOrc beat me to saying that Roy got an impromptu Prince Albert (ya sicko!) but I wonder, if he can now put jewelry there, does it count as an equipment slot?


Prince Albert? It looks more likely to be an ampallang to me. Either that or an apadravya. Maybe a hadafa?

In any event, it looks that Haley might have a new vocation ahead of her. "Haley Starshine's Genital Piercing Emporium"

"You won't feel a thing."

[Tach13]

Devoured Dude raised a great point, it would be funny if O-Chul was the key to the Mark of Justice.
I really liked the fact that the Roaches seem to be playing active roles the last few episodes, as long as they keep doing it in their funny, irreverant ways, the more they get the better.
As for leaving O-Chule, say that was a 5 foot jump. Belkar may have been able to make it, but carrying the weight of even a 200 lb character (probably way more, with character weight and full combat gear) would drop his Jump ability easily 10 points. No running start doubles the Jump DC as well. We have no proof he took back his ring of Jumping from Roy (attack on the Vulture wasn't necessarily that big a jump). All this adds up to a much more difficult jump than he ended up taking. Don't really see the need for the lie, though. Evil arguments aside, what's he gained by the lie?

[pentagram]

I mean, take something like, say, killing somebody. Wouldn't it be evil if you did it for pleasure of feeling hot blood on your hands, or because you wanted his money, but not evil if you did it in self-defense?

"Kill" is a rather broad concept as far as D&D-morality is concerned and you could write a thesis on it, should you choose. Basically, killing innocents is an evil act while killing evil people is not, but it does depend on circumstances. Most adventurers do kill for money (here, we need you heroes to kill the evil wizard. We give you gold for it) but still stay on the good side as long as the killees are evil. Acting cruel or killing non-evil people for fun does make you slip into evil, though.

Killing an evil person for personal gain is at worst neutral (given a non-cruel way of killing, that is).

[jamroar]

Devoured Dude raised a great point, it would be funny if O-Chul was the key to the Mark of Justice.
I really liked the fact that the Roaches seem to be playing active roles the last few episodes, as long as they keep doing it in their funny, irreverant ways, the more they get the better.
As for leaving O-Chule, say that was a 5 foot jump. Belkar may have been able to make it, but carrying the weight of even a 200 lb character (probably way more, with character weight and full combat gear) would drop his Jump ability easily 10 points. No running start doubles the Jump DC as well. We have no proof he took back his ring of Jumping from Roy (attack on the Vulture wasn't necessarily that big a jump). All this adds up to a much more difficult jump than he ended up taking. Don't really see the need for the lie, though. Evil arguments aside, what's he gained by the lie?

He clearly was able to toss O-Chul across the 5ft gap first (but instead he chose to throw him 5ft in the opposite direction, as opposed to dropping him on the spot). He just chose not to bring O-Chul along because two people carrying Roy = quicker getaway (which is ironic because it turned out that the Monster did not feel up to chasing after them after all). The lie saves him from explaining his cold reasoning and getting into trouble with Haley and Hinjo later on, if they survive.

P.S. Hopefully Hinjo has enough diamonds for a Resurrection (and no other corpses that need to be raised) instead of a simple no-frills Raise Dead, otherwise Roy's in for another traumatic bout of emasculation when he gets back.

[Yeril]

Devoured Dude raised a great point, it would be funny if O-Chul was the key to the Mark of Justice.
I really liked the fact that the Roaches seem to be playing active roles the last few episodes, as long as they keep doing it in their funny, irreverant ways, the more they get the better.
As for leaving O-Chule, say that was a 5 foot jump. Belkar may have been able to make it, but carrying the weight of even a 200 lb character (probably way more, with character weight and full combat gear) would drop his Jump ability easily 10 points. No running start doubles the Jump DC as well. We have no proof he took back his ring of Jumping from Roy (attack on the Vulture wasn't necessarily that big a jump). All this adds up to a much more difficult jump than he ended up taking. Don't really see the need for the lie, though. Evil arguments aside, what's he gained by the lie?

200lb probaly means heas in heavy load which means speed of 15ft ( -6 to jump) and -5 check thats - 11 to jump, on a natural 20 he scores a 9 which is enough to jump 5 feet. Belkar seems to be fairly strong for a halfling so lets rate him at 16, that means he had +3 to jump, factor in that with +23 he can get a maximum 10ft in hight but as we have seen before he can jump atleast 20-30ft, meaning he MUST have ranks in jump, alot, lets say even with all the -'s he still has a +4 to jump without the ring meaning 75% chance he would make it.

[EntilZha]

Oh ouch. Poor Roy. I wonder what his girlfriend will say.

That it could apparently support his weight after Haley pinned him to the chasm wall with an arrow will probably have her screaming...

YES, YES, YES, YES!!!!

once again....

:smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

As noted, this seems to be the first time the roaches were plot significant.

So why is anybody upset with Belkar here? We have a long list of morally far more depraved actions in his past, just counting those on camera, much less those off camera. Simple penny-wise and pound-foolish.

If even that. The basic point is that any sensible individual might well decide to do exactly the same thing. One might be more broke up about it [tho Belkar actually says 'sorry'], but you have a jump that is supposed to be impossible with such a load. Really, the only choice is to lighten the load.

Now we do have some picture problems, where story is allowed to overrule the actual image. The gap varies from about 5' to a much wider distance, depending on the picture chosen. Belkar should not have been able to throw O-Chul at all, much less all the way back to the MitD. So we can not make correct rules assessments from what is pictured here. But the basic is clear enough. The jump was to be impossible for a burdened halfling. And while Belkar gains little credit, he also deserves little blame for his actions.

[TimothyRorran]

Eh, I'm usually a huge fan of anything The Giant writes, but this particular time I wasn't terribly impressed. The storyline development seemed a little rushed, Roy remaining suspended by an arrow required a larger-than-usual suspension of disbelief, and O'Chul being so easily recaptured by MITD struck me as unfortunate. (I'm not looking any more forward to O'Chul being an undead zombie than I'd be a fan of the same fate occuring to Miko or Roy, and I was hoping we'd see three surviving members of the Sapphire Guild. Bummer.)

[MadMadMad]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry, I just had to waste bandwidth to laugh maniacally, since I laughed in real life. And I'm at work and drawing attention to myself.

:biggrin:

[teratorn]

Meh, everyone so impressed about the trouser Titan. Big deal, it can hold Roy. Hinjo's junk can hold hundreds of people!

Great strip. For a moment I thought Belkar would get what he deserves the most, but TUTU* didn't even feel it.

* thing under the umbrella.

[Elderac]

Just to point out - it wasn't just Roy's Trouser Titan that was holding up the weight. The arrow penetrated his clothing and possibly his armor as well. I suspect that held most of the weight.

[Vulion]

Oh sweet crap, that was funny, Roy getting nailed right in the nards.

Though...it's kinda scary considering what the MITD is capable of.

[holywhippet]

Y
Poor, poor O-Chul. :smalleek: Oh well, I guess Tsukiko will get her plaything after all. :smallyuk:


I'm not so sure about that. If the MitD decides he wants to keep O'Chul as a friend then I don't see anyone taking him away. I doubt even Xykon could take out the MitD if it came down to it.

[expirement10K14]

:belkar: Sorry, Scarface. Looks like one of us has an appointment with that thing's esophagus and I nominate you on the account of you not being me.

:belkar: ... Did you... did you shoot Roy's corpse in the nuts?

Great quotes, both made me laugh.

[Milandros]

Hold on. You completely ADDED the statement "without regard to the harm it does to others." I never said that, and the player's handbook doesn't say that either. I'm going by what the PLAYERS HANDBOOK SAYS on a true neutral character. And I would tend to agree that putting someone in grave danger in order to save yourself is NEUTRAL, especially when Belkar had no obligation to save O-Chul. No one is obligated to put the lives of others above their own. An exceptionally good person may do so, but you can't say someone is EVIL for not doing so. That's just a completely unreasonable standard. Of course, I maintain that Belkar is evil, but this is not an evil action taken by him.



I don't really see Belkar SAYING something like that to O-Chul as being evil. What he said was that if it came down to a choice between him and O-Chul who'd have to die, he would choose O-Chul, which is frankly, neutral. Throwing O-Chul at the MitD would presumably slow the creature down, so it's reasonable to understand why Belkar would do it, even if it wasn't the most honorable thing to do. Yeah, he lied about it afterwards, but I probably would too in order to avoid a lecture from Haley(she is good-aligned after all), because that wasn't the time or place for her disdain. Belkar was right in saying they had to leave immediately or they'd be putting themselves--AND OTHERS, those on the boat--in greater danger.

Yes, Belkar is evil. No, this was not an evil act on his part. It was neutral. Belkar didn't toss O-Chul back because he hated him and wanted to see O-Chul suffer, he tossed him back because it was his best chance at survival. That's all.


I added the statement for clarity. The statement "with whatever would suit their best interest" didn't imply "... as long as it doesn't hurt others particularly, and isn't too much against society's morals, etc etc". I wasn't trying to disagree with you - I was clarifying the statement so my comment made sense.

As far as Belkar's action goes, I agree. Dumping O'Chul because he believes that it's O'Chul or both of them is not evil. The only evil is the way he does it - without regret, without mercy, without even the slightest bit of empathy. He's almost happy to feed the conscious, paralysed paladin to the monster.

Even this is fairly low-grade evil, as evil goes, of course. As I said before, it pales completely when compared to the direct infliction of suffering he's done in the past.

[dokein]

Actually I would prefer not to know that such people even exist because I don't know what it says about the status of morality in the world.

Kids in Africa are shooting each other by the minute while you are posting on an online comic. I do research 60 hours a week on a mental disorder, but people afflicted with it suffer 168 hours a week. We are almost all of us in the same ballpark of morality.

You know what really defines evil? Judging others to be of less worth than yourself. That's how you kill somebody. So get over it.

[malakim2099]

Kids in Africa are shooting each other by the minute while you are posting on an online comic. I do research 60 hours a week on a mental disorder, but people afflicted with it suffer 168 hours a week. We are almost all of us in the same ballpark of morality.

You know what really defines evil? Judging others to be of less worth than yourself. That's how you kill somebody. So get over it.

Hi, this is malakim2099 at the First Reality Bank. Your check just bounced.

Seriously, a raging discussion about alignment is one thing. Dragging RL drama into that is just seriously bad mojo.

[Jopinion]

*Sigh* I was all stoked about the new comic and ready to say hurray for demon roaches and shooting roy's unmentionables.

Sadly I read the forum posts before mine and noted the fierce debate about Belkar's morals and the arrow thing.

I would like to say that while both sides of either argument can male their cases clear I am not taking sides. I just want to point out that this is a comic strip and Mr.Burlew is an artist(in my eyes anyway). That being said, this is a piece of art therefore, artistic liscence has been taken to further the plot. Arguing about the morals(or lack thereof) of fictional characters and the possibility of an arrow holding up the weight of a dead hero saddens me.

That's just my two cents. I for one enjoyed the comic regardless of the weight and alignment issues. I have suspended my disbelief indefinetely and will continue to enjoy the improbable humour of the comics.

[dakiwiboid]

I'm pretty sure it's oesophagus, though haven't bothered to check atm...

"Esophagus" is the correct American spelling. Rich Burlew's from Philadelphia, and is not likely to be using the British variant.

[Psychonaut]

Given both that it was able to support his weight and that there's now an arrow sticking out of it:


Well, what can I say about the recent comic. Many many things, but I'll start by saying it was Uber. Pure Uber on a Stick!

...thus was born a fitting new nickname for Roy's altered "Trouser Titan". "Altered" pun intended.

[teratorn]

*Sigh* I was all stoked about the new comic and ready to say hurray for demon roaches and shooting roy's unmentionables.

Sadly I read the forum posts before mine and noted the fierce debate about Belkar's morals and the arrow thing.

Same here. I expected all sort of comments on how Roy's titan compares with Hinjo's junk, on how there was no need for Durkon to fix things for Roy was already fixed, that kind off stuff. There's a lot of good stuff in this strip.

Belkar is a psycho, he acted on character, that's all. Miko's weapons tickled TUTU, it didn't even feel Belkar's daggers. That thing could easily take out armies. I wonder if it has some sort of spell resistence.

[ImpFireball]

Okay, MitD is seriously badass.

I can't think of ANYTHING in the d20 system that can stomp like that.

...maybe it's some sort of evil, undead, uber-Tauren...

... or a custom monster with 900 strength?

Seriously. At that point, strength pretty much includes vocal cords so essentially him yelling loud enough to make his surroundings shake was included into that factor.

Along with awesome blowing someone thousands of feet rather than the determined dozen or so (whatever the description). I imagine that much strength allows the 'GM' to play around with physics a little. Which is fair, 'cause it's realistic. :P

And of course... of course spell resistance is complementary at that point! That kinda strength could 'strength away' spells with muscley-armed strength if you like.

[malakim2099]

Belkar is a psycho, he acted on character, that's all. Miko's weapons tickled TUTU, it didn't even feel Belkar's daggers. That thing could easily take out armies. I wonder if it has some sort of spell resistence.

Quite likely, at least, I'd be shocked if it didn't. Then again...

(Warning: SOD Spoiler)
MITD was pretty vulnerable to a geas that Xykon slapped on him.

[dokein]

Hi, this is malakim2099 at the First Reality Bank. Your check just bounced.

Seriously, a raging discussion about alignment is one thing. Dragging RL drama into that is just seriously bad mojo.

I was responding to Aris' criticizing the REAL LIFE morals of people who laugh at what Belkar does, by pointing out that we are all imperfect, and laughing at some quasi-evil action on an online comic is the last thing that really demonstrates who we are as people.

Did I phrase it in a way that was not clear?

[malakim2099]

I was responding to Aris' criticizing the REAL LIFE morals of people who laugh at what Belkar does, by pointing out that we are all imperfect, and laughing at some quasi-evil action on an online comic is the last thing that really demonstrates who we are as people.

Did I phrase it in a way that was not clear?

Sarcasm doesn't translate well on the Internet without handy emoticons.

And considering how the discussion goes, there apparently was a bank error in your favor. With all the bounced reality checks in this forum, it's easy for one to slip through. :smallamused:

[Gol_Stoan]

I guess Haley only has two arrows left now, I wonder if she will be needing them soon.

Of course she could probably use her third arrow again but Belkar might need to cover his eyes when she recovers it. :smallbiggrin:

[Starshine]

This strip was just utterly priceless, no matter how many arrows Haley has left or not. The last panel was disturbingly priceless as well.

[sealemon]

Holy crap. I finally figured out what the MITD is...

'Cause NOTHING stops the Juggernaut! And...yah...he has that earthquake attack in the X Men video game...

Seriously, a very fun comic.

[Mashadar]

Yesss, that is sooo evil!

Belkar's actions and attempted actions.

Killing surrendering people. Killing allies strictly for personal gain. Choosing to kill all contenders when he had to pick one, and not even kill them. Stabbing everyone in sight at the post prom party. Abandoning allies for amusement when he was supposed to be guarding their backs.

A small summary, not even complete.

And that's not evil? Maybe we should call serial killers good then hmm?

[Woolysock]

Man! that was funny. I really hope O chul survives. Then much much later we can have him as an older man saying
"You think THATS suffering?! Why I remember when Azure City was destroyed...

[Islander]

Regarding the first part, presumably Roy has armor protecting his groin? So the arrow pierced the armor as well as Roy's body. That's what's holding him up.
Talk about a load-bearing member...

[CDRrules]

Okay that line made it into one of my all time favorite lines from this strip:

"...I'm sure Durkon can fix that, too." --:haley:

:biggrin:

[kerberos]

Meh, everyone so impressed about the trouser Titan. Big deal, it can hold Roy. Hinjo's junk can hold hundreds of people!
Well hundreds of seamen*. The trouser Tian (with accessories) can hold millions and his own weight.








* They're on the boat, that makes them seamen in a manner of speaking.

[Aerysil]

Holy ow.

And poor O'Chul. Aware of what's happening and absolutely powerless.

[Mount]

I seriously doubt there's any question that Belkar's evil. The Giant has in fact SAID that Belkar is evil. I'm not *completely* convinced on the Chaotic part, but I can definitely see the possibility for it.

HOWEVER: I submit to you that Haley is evil as well! Neutral Evil is usually defined as "selfish" evil. You do what you can to make sure you get yours, whenever you can get away with it. Things like, oh... duping your party into giving you more treasure (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html)... or just grabbing all the loot before the party gets there. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html) among others. There's been speculation in this vein before, regarding the "I'm not exactly what you'd call..." line right before she lost her words. ("...'Good.'" is the word she's looking for.)

Which is fine, 'cause hey, I'm Neutral Evil myself! :smallcool:

[dokein]

Sarcasm doesn't translate well on the Internet without handy emoticons.

And considering how the discussion goes, there apparently was a bank error in your favor. With all the bounced reality checks in this forum, it's easy for one to slip through. :smallamused:

Ah, well. I was almost going to close my account!

[Cuindless]

That sort of thing has happened in real life as well. In fact, on at least two occasions people have fallen more than 10,000 feet and lived.

From Wikipedia: JAT stewardess Vesna Vulović survived a fall of 33,000 feet (over 10,000 meters)[1] on January 26, 1972 when she was thrown from JAT Flight 364 by a terrorist bomb. She broke several bones and was in a coma for 27 days.

In World War II there were several reports of aircrew surviving long falls: Nick Alkemade, Alan Magee, and I.M. Chisov all fell at least 6,000 meters and survived.

From Rockclimbingworld.com: It is uncommon, but actually not exceedingly rare, for rock climbers to fall from extreme heights and survive, some even walking away. The longest recorded rock climbing fall that a man walked away from was from a height of 2100 feet.

So there you go. It is believable that adventurers, being specimens of peak physical condition, would be able to survive something like that. They face Dragons, after all.


I hate to get into "DnD logic" here, be we are talking about a system where a person can, quite literally, jump of a 1000 foot cliff, land on his head, and walk away after dusting himself off.

I think an arrow supporting a body is a pretty minor thing in the grand scheme of things. :smalltongue:

[Shatteredtower]

I am resigned to the fact that jokes about Roy's genitalia will continue to be a running gag for this strip. I find this one a bit much, but it generally seems to have been well received, and if most of Mr. Burlew's audience is satisfied, fair enough.

I have no complaints about Belkar's actions. He was clearly throwing O-Chul downhill off his shoulders. Across a gap? Nah. He's strong, but he's still a halfling, and he's used his rage for the day.

As for his words, I'd prefer what he said to any sanctimonius crap about how sorry you are for leaving me behind. Save me your "sorry" because it doesn't do me a bit of good. It's about you getting to feel better about yourself. At least with Belkar, it's, "Given the choice of two deaths or one, I'll opt for yours."

Now given the choice to vote otherwise, I'd certainly make the attempt, sure. Having no such vote, however, O-Chul is no worse off for Belkar's intervention in the long run. As such, I see this as a display of dark humour, not evil.

As for lying to Haley, it gets the job done. It spares an argument and keeps her focused on getting away. Again, not evil. Certainly not good either, but no one's any worse off for her not knowing what really happened.

Well, no one's worse off right now. I won't be surprised if this comes back to haunt Belkar somewhere way down the road.

[Aris Katsaris]

As for his words, I'd prefer what he said to any sanctimonius crap about how sorry you are for leaving me behind.

In your moral universe can the expression of regret only ever be "sanctimonious crap" and nothing else, no matter how sincere?

[fractal]

On a completely different note about Belkar, how come he just got 5 attacks? Does this mean he only has 10 Ranger levels?

BAB +13 means 3 regular attacks; TWF (Ra 2), ITWF (Ra 6), GTWF (Ra 11) would be 3 extra attacks, for a total of 6.

[banjo1985]

hehe roy got shot in the nads, now that's comedy!

Great strip, the best one for some time!

On a side note, what the hell is the MitD, I don't know any DnD monster that can do that!

[Omicroncubed]

This strip makes me laugh a lot :smallbiggrin: Great one!

[Alfryd]

New comic is up.
Now, Roy, you have my pity.

Curiouser and curiouser. Well, at least now they'll have respectable stealth checks.


I am resigned to the fact that jokes about Roy's genitalia will continue to be a running gag for this strip.
Oh, for heaven's sake. It was a scream.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Preach It Brother!

Ps. I think the monster in the darkness is cthulhu.

If it was, it would have to be holding a much bigger umbrella :smallbiggrin:

Also, if no one else posted this:

Haley's arrow count is now down to 2. I wonder if she'll run out at an innoportune moment?

[factotum]

20 is the number of arrows you can put in a standard quiver. I would be absolutely amazed if Haley didn't have a few quiver reloads in one or other of her Bags of Holding, so there's no guarantee she has only 2 arrows left.

[Fighteer]

HOWEVER: I submit to you that Haley is evil as well! Neutral Evil is usually defined as "selfish" evil. You do what you can to make sure you get yours, whenever you can get away with it. Things like, oh... duping your party into giving you more treasure... or just grabbing all the loot before the party gets there. among others. There's been speculation in this vein before, regarding the "I'm not exactly what you'd call..." line right before she lost her words. ("...'Good.'" is the word she's looking for.)
Haley is Chaotic Good - again, a well-established character point. Aside from the obvious fact that if she were Evil, Miko's Detect Evil would have revealed it back in the early 200's, we already know that her greed is not entirely selfish in origin. There's the small matter of her father's ransom note. She considers herself a champion of the downtrodden as well, as shown in the scene with the dirt farmers. She only briefly toys with the notion of selling an Evil character into slavery, and that only because Belkar pushed the "profit" button. In the end, she gave it up as a bad idea.

If you can show me one actual Evil act she's performed throughout the comic, I'll be interested.


On a completely different note about Belkar, how come he just got 5 attacks? Does this mean he only has 10 Ranger levels?

BAB +13 means 3 regular attacks; TWF (Ra 2), ITWF (Ra 6), GTWF (Ra 11) would be 3 extra attacks, for a total of 6.
It's possible that one of his attacks missed. Obviously the MitD's AC isn't that impressive.

[Faramir]

I know that Ranged Pin can do something SIMILAR, but ranged pin works by using a projectile to pin the target's clothing to a surface. In this case, gravity and the weight of Roy's armor would surely break the arrow.

Only went through about half the pages of commentary so I don't know if anyone already said this, but as a stick figure Roy doesn't actually weigh that much...

[chijayhawker]

My first post...didn't know where better to post for the discussion for the whole alignment argument, so I posted it under the apparently closed forum for the discussion of Belkar's Alignment...or to be more vague...the whole general discussion of alignment. Where's that forum? :smallconfused:

[Emperor Ing]

well, this is it, but wrong thread. Have fun, oh, and b4 i 4get, here! (http://haveafishystick.ytmnd.com/)

[chibibar]

I read about 3 pages so far and people tend to forget about one thing. They are stick figures (remember the shadow ninja about breaking the 4th wall?) thus they are two dimensional ;) maybe Haley just shot and the arrow holds BECAUSE they are two dimensional.

Now... even if that was not the case, we have magical arrows. All arrows are NOT made equal. Haley seems to have some magical arrows and elemental arrows at her disposal. It is possible to have titanium arrow or adamentium arrow with lightness magic on it or piercing. You CAN have multiple spells on an item.

It is funny that a lot of people tend to follow the rules that it is written PRETTY strict now-a-days. I remember when the old days of D&D 1st edition. The GM can alter/mold the rules to their liking (aka house rules).