Gestalt Questions: tank and control builds

[JonathanPDX]

I'm going to join a campaign next month that uses Gestalt rules. I'm really excited as it's my first time building such a character. A friend is joining with me, so we're both reading up on builds, combinations, and theory to make effective characters in this system.

The party already has 4 players (Paladin/Oracle, Sorc/Ninja, Inquisitor/Rogue, and Rogue/Swashbuckler) so it looks like they are going to have tons of melee damage, sneak attacks, and skills already covered. I was told that we can roll whatever we want to but they don't have a dedicated tank or arcane caster. The party is currently level 4.

Since they already have a lot of damage dice to throw around I am looking at building a debuffer or battlefield controller but I am concerned about my DC lagging behind. I imagine 6 Gestalt PCs means the enemies will be equally powerful and I worry that a pure DC-based caster could lag behind. I've always wanted to build a Witch focused on Slumber Hex, and knocking enemies out of combat or debuffing them seems like it would fit, but can a Witch have an effective DC in this environment? If hexes aren't the way to go, I've read a lot of suggestions around Oracle/Sorcerer but at level 4 I'm probably casting Hold Person, Command, and Create Pit. In that case I'm still relying on winning the DC battle to contribute, which could face the same issue.

Any suggestions or builds for a 4th level caster (or something else) that will make a bunch of sneak-attacking rogues happy? Melee is going to be crowded so Magus builds are probably out, I'd rather stay out of the fray and even the odds for my teammates. I'm open to anything that supports the party but I would prefer to weaken and incapacitate foes as opposed to just casting heals or singing Inspiring Courage every round.

My friend is interested in building a tank but there are so many different ways to go about it that we're a bit overwhelmed. A Paladin/Oracle (Battle or Metal) could work but since there's already someone with the same classes (but different focus) it might be too much overlap. I'm not sure if the tank approach should be a sword and board with heavy armor, or perhaps some kind of Dex-based build that stacks AC via Dex / Wis instead of heavy armor. Getting into melee ahead of all those rogues could be challenging too, perhaps a Psion (Psychoportation)/Paladin would work, as he could teleport himself 30' right into flanking position. Whatever the build is, he's more concerned with surviving and supporting the other melee characters than trying to dish out maximum damage himself.

Any tips or tricks on building an effective tank, and the best way to approach AC & survivability given the fact that we'll probably be facing high CR enemies for our level?

Thanks!
-JonathanPDX

[Ualaa]

In a gestalt game, you're looking to get as close to full BAB, which is D10 or D12 hit dice, and three good saves as you can. Lots of skills are nice to have too.
It's good to have one active side of the build, with passive (always on) abilities on the other side.

In general, if you were looking for battlefield control you would likely go with Wizard. That doesn't necessarily change in a gestalt game.

The wizard has d4 (D&D) or d6 (Pathfinder) hit dice, 0.50 BAB per level, one good save (Will) and minimal skills (2) per level.
If you were to Gestalt it with a Ranger...
That becomes full BAB, d10 HD, all good saves, 6 skills per level, bonus feats from the ranger side.

Gestalting the Wizard with a Cleric isn't as beneficial, generally speaking.
The Cleric gets you one extra good save (instead of two), 3/4 BAB instead of full attack, and a second spell list, which while impressive doesn't do a whole lot with one set of actions.
The passive stuff of the ranger, is always on; the cleric and wizard list, both occupy mostly your Standard action and occasionally your full-round action, so aside from Swift (Quickened) spells using either precludes using the other.
The control role won't necessarily often have attack rolls necessary, if you were to do a Scorching Ray attack (that is Range Touch) balanced by a poor attack roll; the full BAB ranger adds more to the Wizard than a 3/4 BAB Cleric does, in that sense.

I'd consider going Druid with Wizard.
The Druid list is flexible, with control, healing and offensive options; like the Cleric list, either you're casting as a Wizard or as a Druid, so in and of itself that doesn't add a massive amount.
The Druid can wildshape, and can cast while in a shapeshift, which is a massive edge over Polymorph or Shapechange due to the casting.
Being an air elemental, flying at a high speed with perfect mobility (down the road of course) adds a massive amount of mobility.
Summons is a strong class feature, which can give your Rogue's flank attacks for their sneak dice... and acts as a control option.
Compared to a Ranger.. you're 3/4 BAB and two saves not three.
But the wildshape is a very nice feature and the spell list is flexible, when you're not using a Wizard spell.



For your friend who is looking to play the tank, you're looking for melee control.
Three good saves is mechanically the goal, as any tanking option is already at least a d10 HD with full BAB already; extra skill points is a bonus.
I'm more familiar with Pathfinder... on specifics as to where the build should go.
If you were to use Path of War within your game, something like the Warder would be a great choice -- the reach really gives a lot of control.



You said there are four PCs already, so including your friend you'll be #5 and #6.
That's a decent sized group, but still within the 4-6 PC base assumption of the game.

Gestalt generally suggests increasing the level of enemies by 1 by default.
Or by 2 if the mob in question relies upon a saving throw, for it's typical attack.
So if an Ogre is an appropriate fight for a non-Gestalt group of level 4s, you'd throw it at the group at level 3.
Or if a Medusa (which relies on its save or turn to stone) were an appropriate fight at level 6, a Gestalt group might encounter them at level 4.

That kind of gives you a ballpark idea of the challenge rating of a typical gestalt game.

Every group varies, some are more optimized than others.
An optimized group may encounter tougher opposition and a less optimized group may get opponents that aren't as tough.

[JonathanPDX]

Thank you for the advice, that is very helpful.

We're using Pathfinder rules and the DM said he's pretty open to 3rd party material, so we have the freedom to make cool, fun characters.

As a battlefield controller on a team full of melee attackers my concern is running out of firepower long before they need to rest. As a 4th level wizard I'm looking at a pretty short list of spells and then, if my "passive" side is something sturdy like a ranger, my backup plan is just to throw cantrips or arrows around. I don't want a backup plan that involves wading into melee.

I'm looking at my options for control abilities that are going to support the melee fighters without being heavily limited by casts per day. The ones that stand out are the Witch, Kineticist and perhaps the Mesmerist (from Occult Adventures.) The Witch can throw hexes around forever without running out of firepower, and a Hydro-Kineticist could cast "slick" (1-round version of Grease) as a standard action with no limit, then back it up with endless energy attacks. The Mesmerist could give a nice little penalty to one target with gaze as a swift action, which would be great for action economy, but I don't see a good pairing that could take advantage of the penalty without resulting in low BAB, saves, or HD.

Am I looking at this wrong, or am I on the right track to look for control abilities with unlimited uses and then pair them with a more durable passive class?

As for the tank, the Warder is perfect! I never read up on them before but it looks fantastic; now the question is: what do you pair it with? A divine caster for buffs and heals in plate? A psionic fighter type for passive bonuses like the Aegis or Soulknife? There are so many options!

Thanks!
-JonathanPDX

[Corlindale]

If you really want to crank up your DCs you might consider Witch/Alchemist or Wizard/Alchemist, using the Mindchemist archetype.

This gives you all good saves and lets you use Cognatogen to pump your Int score beyond what's normally possible, enabling spell DCs beyond what a regular caster can achieve.

You will also be an amazing knowledge guy with tons of skill points and your intelligence bonus twice to all Knowledge checks.

You get more combat staying power because you can use your extracts for most buffing needs, freeing up your actual spells for full-on battlefield control. You can even use Infusion to hand out Personal buffs that a regular Wizard cannot give to others, such as Shield.

If you run out of spells anyway, you can take various crowd-control and debuffing Discoveries to make your alchemist bombs yet another fantastic tool for controlling the battlefield, further amplifying your resources and staying power.

[Peat]

I like Corlindale's idea of using Mindchemist. Although if you did go Ranger, that would open up Arcane Archer and the ability to stick Antimagic fields and the like on arrows and fire them downrange, which sounds fun to me.

Although Alchemist wouldn't be a bad addition to Warder either. Keeps you very INT focused. A Divine Caster would make sense if he doesn't mind spreading himself thin over INT and another mental stat (I think some of the Psychic casters are INT based).

[Coventry]

If your GM allows the combination, consider mixing a Synthesist Summoner with a full caster. My personal favorite is the Unsworn Shaman.

The Eidolon gives you natural armor and shield bonuses without spending a single gold piece on gear, plus more bonus hit points than you can shake a stick at. You will not score hits nearly as often as a dedicated melee combatant, but you will shrug off things better than they can. The Paladin/Oracle will outlast you in the party's tank role, but you'll be nearly as hard to kill.

Get extra arms and put claws on them (up to the limit of natural attacks for your eidolon level, consider spending one eidolon evolution point on the +8 racial bonus to a skill -> perception. And look forward to having wings at fifth level.

At fourth level, the original pathfinder summoner (i.e. NOT the unchained version) gets access to Haste. This is one of the best combat buffing spells, and the Summoner gets access to it one full level earlier than a wizard gets it.

The unsworn shaman can pick up the wandering spirit which grants access to any wizard spell, so you end up with a nearly complete range of spell casting options. The class archetype has dynamic access to hexes, but can change them out each day. Need healing today? Debuffing tomorrow? Crafting hexes (brew potion or craft miscellaneous) when you are back in town to cut the cost of enchanting your gear by 50%? Easy.

Even without using the lore spirit to get access to wizard spells, the shaman casting list is pretty solid.

Pick a role - you can fill most of them with this gestalt.

I had a full work-up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505861-Oracle-Sorcerer-Cleric-or-Wizard-for-battlefield-control-defending-thr-party&p=21386009#post21386009) of this gestalt back in November.

[Tuvarkz]

For Warder, it'd really depend on what you want to do.
For non-Ordained Defender warders
Aegis is really good overall, particularly due to the mobility and potential size/reach increases.
Psion gives plenty of solid flexibility, and doesn't need you to forgo armor like Wizards do. Also, efficient use of move actions thanks to Hustle Power
Fighter feats enable far more complex builds with plenty of stuff, particularly to grab Cut from the Air(Smash from the Air
The Brutal Disruptor Cryptic can make you do incredible damage
Occultist implements are also nice utility, and again, no need to worry about arcane spell failure

Ordained Defender Warders
Fighter is still good, although an Augmented Blade Soulknife will do the job better
Relic Hunter Inquisitor nets you occultist implements stuff, plus divine spellcasting for plenty of utility. Normal inquisitor is fine too if numbers are what you need.
Soulknife is a really good choice if you taking Dervish Defender, if at least to alleviate the costs of TWFing, and the Gifted Blade archetype nets some needed utility too
Psychic Armory Soulknife synergizes incredibly well with an OD Hawkguard, particularly due to instant Wis to attack and damage.
Brutality Blade allows for the heavy blow-dispatching.
PsyWar is a mix of bonus utility and damage, making it a solid choice. Form Astral Armor is a must-pick power, since you taking it at 7 gives incredible flexibility.
Cleric is mostly utility, although there will be action economy conflicts.

[Ualaa]

If you have access to third party material... I love both Ultimate Psionics and Path of War (both by Dreamscarred Press).
Any martial class that is not a Path of War, or Path of War Expanded, is severely gimping themselves.
The maneuvers scale with level, in the sense that you get more powerful versions (like higher level spells) as you increase in level; so it's not the case of a Fighter hitting +8 attack for 1d8+11 and in three levels they're +12 attack for 1d8+13... but rather, your maneuver does 2d6 damage plus weapon dice and other modifiers and if your attack lands the opponent is flat-footed until it acts... and the next power/maneuver is +4d6 damage and the opponent might be dazed.

Basically a traditional martial has a first level spell, that scales very slowly.
And a Path of War martial has a new spell every level, that doesn't exactly scale with level (same maneuver hitting harder at higher levels), but you do get more powerful maneuvers as you advance and the increased potency of the new maneuvers is far ahead of the scaling of the traditional melee's only power.

Plus the Path of War guy could take whatever feats the traditional martial is taking, on top of having their stances and maneuvers that the traditional martials cannot compete with.




For casting, I'd take a hard look at Spheres of Power (Drop Dead Studios), as you can configure the type of caster you want to be.

As a control guy, you could take the base Destruction sphere, and say a flaw of Energy Focus, which will force you to always use one energy type for example Stone Blast (physical damage, bypassing most DR types and ignoring spell resistance/anti-magic) or Fire Blast (similar to most fire attacks... d6s and can catch targets on fire if they fail their saves or d8s but cannot alight targets (the latter is in the Destroyer's Handbook, a SoP splatbook).
With Destruction, you have unlimited uses of the basic nuke d6 per odd level... can augment that to d6 per level, with your valuable and limited spell point pool.
You could take Crystal Shards as your damage type (and don't need the flaw to force you into only one element, although that gets you the element for free), which deals d4s of damage but has a snare effect for control.
Orb as a shape, makes a Fireball like area (scaling with level) to deliver the difficult terrain/snare to more than a single square.

Darkness could be a control effect... it blocks line of sight, and can be augmented to obfuscate dark vision or to snare those that enter it.
You can take a talent to let your allies move about it freely...

Nature could create obstacles for battlefield control.

Time can get your allies haste, which is one of the top buffs in the game.

Warp is teleport type magic, but you can play the ultimate chess game with Ranged and Group Teleport to reposition your allies upon the battlefield... and have an emergency escape option should you need one.

Basically with spheres you're picking and choosing the effects that you have, rather than using so many spells of a given level, from an arbitrary spell list.
The system is far more balanced with consistent scaling, compared to the default magic system.
The final caster may have fewer talents than a Wizard has spells, but they'll be the talents that fit their character vision, with unlimited uses of the basic stuff and a finite number of spell points for augmented or burst/improved effects.

Nothing stops a sphere caster from having Life (healing), Conjuration (an Eidolon like pet), Time (Haste and similar effects), and Warp (teleports) on the same caster who happens to wear armor without arcane spell failure (but has the normal penalties, unless they take the relevant proficiency feats).
Or whatever combination of talents fits your vision.

[JonathanPDX]

Thanks for the advice everyone! I'm going to ask the DM if we can use Path of War for the tank, it looks like a lot of fun. I don't think I want to try the classic summoner (too easy to break and be denied) or the Spheres of Power book (I don't know it well enough.)

I think I've narrowed down what I want my controller / debuff caster to do, I'm just torn on the best way to go about it. My goals, in order of importance:
1. Incapacitate enemies. Sleep, knock down, hold, etc.
2. Deny enemies their dex bonus (Blind, grease, etc.) If my allies have 6+ dice worth of sneak attack at the ready then making enemies flat-footed is going to add up to a lot more damage than blasting them myself.
3. Weaken enemies (preferably their to-hit, but anything that makes them suck more than my team is good.)
4. Stay far away from Melee! I don't want to dish out the damage, or get close enough to get killed.

The best spells I see to reach these goals are: Command, Hold Person, Color Spray, Blindness/Deafness, Glitterdust, Grease. I think the Witch spell list has the best spells from this list at the lowest levels, and Slumber hex would fit the bill as well.

The next issue is how to maximize the DC and manage . Alchemist is an interesting option but the downside is the INT mutagen cause ability damage and it takes an action to drink. I can work around the ability damage with Lesser Restoration but that's a lot of work for a net of +2 to my DC.

Mesmerist can use a swift action for -2 to will saves on one target (and -2 to hit as well) which fits my goals nicely. The downside is D8 HD and low Fort save. Their spell list is quite similar to the Witches, too, though it would give plenty of Blinds and Commands each day. But I do need CHR and INT for casting, and I don't see many ways to boost my DC. This feels like a better fit than the alchemist if I want to go double-caster.

Fey Bloodline Sorcerer gets +2 to Compulsion spells but they wouldn't have Hold Person or Command, and then I'd be super squishy and only have one good save. I'm not sure if the bloodline applies to my other spell list, either.

Dual-Cursed Oracle could use Misfortune could force rerolls on all those save-or-die spells. Maybe Heavens Mystery to throw Color Spray around? But again, I'm squishy with only one good save. And I don't know if my DC would be high enough to win consistently even with Misfortune.

Am I missing any obvious options to boost my DC, or another class that can cast these spells or help them land? I'm assuming I can get 2 primary stats to 18 with racial bonuses if necessary (and the level 4 bonus helps too) but I haven't rolled the stat block to play with actual numbers yet. Right now I'm leaning toward the Witch / Mesmerist because the action economy and theme both fit, and the concept sounds intriguing to roleplay (literally not a single ability that deals direct damage,) but I'm open to better options, or the best way to optimize the character design. Since we're starting at level 4 I'm more worried about being effective at levels 4-6 than designing a wizard who is going to be super great at level 12.

Thanks again for all the help, I appreciate it!
-JonathanPDX

[Gruftzwerg]

I would suggest a Warlock // (Druid) "The Wild Reaper" (variant) (Dragon magazine #311).

You can buff, heal & wildshape with druid and use warlock to spam control & buff spells/invocations. This makes you very flexible. You can start the fight with ranged AoE control spells and than close in with a wild shape form.

Take Eldritch Claws feat, now you can have claws (which do Eldritch Blast + unarmed dmg) in all wild shape forms, add multiattack and enjoy a lot of attacks.


Druid "The Wild Reaper" 12 / Eldritch Disciple 8 // Warlock 5 / Master of Many Forms 10 / xxx(Warshaper ?) 5
(I suggest something with either warlock invocation progression or something to enhance your melee abilities while wild shaped, maybe even something monkish to further improve unarmed dmg, depending on your preferences).

And don't forget to get a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp ASAP. Will make you more mobile and tanky (Wis-modifier to AC). Further it enhances your unarmed damage which is calculated in your Eldritch Claws.

edit: Warshaper 5 would be another good option for the last 5 lvls on the Warlock side

[Tuvarkz]

I think I've narrowed down what I want my controller / debuff caster to do, I'm just torn on the best way to go about it. My goals, in order of importance:
1. Incapacitate enemies. Sleep, knock down, hold, etc.
2. Deny enemies their dex bonus (Blind, grease, etc.) If my allies have 6+ dice worth of sneak attack at the ready then making enemies flat-footed is going to add up to a lot more damage than blasting them myself.
3. Weaken enemies (preferably their to-hit, but anything that makes them suck more than my team is good.)
4. Stay far away from Melee! I don't want to dish out the damage, or get close enough to get killed.


I'd still suggest the Warder, particularly the Hawkguard, with a focus on Tempest Gale/Elemental Flux
regarding your character build goals:
1) There's plenty of maneuvers that allow knocking the opponent prone, stunning, nauseating, dazing, or otherwise weakening them
2) There's Tempest gale maneuvers that allow for dirty tricks (to blind), or save against blind, or elemental flux stuff that lands a stun. Also, to note, by level 4 most enemies are going to be able to get past the flat-footing part of Grease, esp since its area is so small.
3) Sickening, Disarm, Entangle, Dazzle, are things you can do with maneuvers, and the Armiger's Mark penalty is brutally useful on enemies at all levels.
4) Hawkguard allows you to do this, since ranged maneuvers and your defensive focus starts from a more solid 15 feet radius. (Also, with a d12 hit die and Warder counters, you hardly need to fear getting melee'd to death). Although then, with maneuvers, you will be doing a significant amount of damage output.

[JonathanPDX]

I'd still suggest the Warder, particularly the Hawkguard, with a focus on Tempest Gale/Elemental Flux
regarding your character build goals:
1) There's plenty of maneuvers that allow knocking the opponent prone, stunning, nauseating, dazing, or otherwise weakening them
2) There's Tempest gale maneuvers that allow for dirty tricks (to blind), or save against blind, or elemental flux stuff that lands a stun. Also, to note, by level 4 most enemies are going to be able to get past the flat-footing part of Grease, esp since its area is so small.
3) Sickening, Disarm, Entangle, Dazzle, are things you can do with maneuvers, and the Armiger's Mark penalty is brutally useful on enemies at all levels.
4) Hawkguard allows you to do this, since ranged maneuvers and your defensive focus starts from a more solid 15 feet radius. (Also, with a d12 hit die and Warder counters, you hardly need to fear getting melee'd to death). Although then, with maneuvers, you will be doing a significant amount of damage output.

This is a very interesting idea! At 4th level my best maneuvers would be:
Tempest Gale:
Snipers Eye Stance (+2 CMB)
Disarming Shot (Disarm)
Sudden Gust (Trip)
Dustcatching Breeze (Blind)

Elemental Flux has options to stagger, knock prone, or blind. But it looks like at 4th level I'd get the most bang for my buck by focusing on Tempest Gale.

If I'm going to focus entirely on maneuvers instead of damage, what options can I use to pump up the CMB? Sleight of Hand replaces my CMB, so I assume abilities like the Lore Warden which boost CMB wouldn't help, though Skill Focus would. Would Gloves of Larceny (+5 Sleight of hand, from ultimate equipment guide) apply to the maneuver checks?

What passive class would pair best with the Hawkguard? I still have a weak Reflex save, but my high DEX should help there so maybe it's not the top priority. Another martial class could give a bunch of feats, but other than stacking +hit I'm not sure how many of them are going to help my maneuvers. Maybe a psionic or int-based caster for versatility? If I'm spending every action to use or recover a maneuver then I don't have much room left for casting spells.

Thanks!
-JonathanPDX

[Elricaltovilla]

The best class to pair with warder for a gestalt is Investigator (in my humble opinion) they're both INT focused, they give you all good saves, and Inspiration can be used to boost skill checks. Additionally, extracts can be used passively for buffing purposes, and the class skills line up perfectly so you can actually get all skills as class skills (once you get a fly speed). The combination makes for a highly flexible and powerful character that always has something to contribute.

[Tuvarkz]

This is a very interesting idea! At 4th level my best maneuvers would be:
Tempest Gale:
Snipers Eye Stance (+2 CMB)
Disarming Shot (Disarm)
Sudden Gust (Trip)
Dustcatching Breeze (Blind)

Elemental Flux has options to stagger, knock prone, or blind. But it looks like at 4th level I'd get the most bang for my buck by focusing on Tempest Gale.

If I'm going to focus entirely on maneuvers instead of damage, what options can I use to pump up the CMB? Sleight of Hand replaces my CMB, so I assume abilities like the Lore Warden which boost CMB wouldn't help, though Skill Focus would. Would Gloves of Larceny (+5 Sleight of hand, from ultimate equipment guide) apply to the maneuver checks?

What passive class would pair best with the Hawkguard? I still have a weak Reflex save, but my high DEX should help there so maybe it's not the top priority. Another martial class could give a bunch of feats, but other than stacking +hit I'm not sure how many of them are going to help my maneuvers. Maybe a psionic or int-based caster for versatility? If I'm spending every action to use or recover a maneuver then I don't have much room left for casting spells.


-Elemental Flux still has a few utility stuff via stances and some mobility. But yes, EF doesn't kick into high gear until you reach level 7. At that point, you take Advanced Study feat, and grab both Energy Hammer and Eldritch Consumption at once. With these two, you get a powerful offense/defense pair of maneuvers.

-When SoH replaces CMB, all extra bonuses and maluses to your attack rolls still apply (Aka Point-Blank shot if applicable, range increment penalties, weapon enhancement bonus, competence bonuses, etc. To note though, if you have a competence bonus to attack rolls and a competence bonus to Sleight of Hand checks, you take the highest) And yes, Gloves of Larceny would boost the check significatively.

I'd suggest to go firstly with a Ordained Defender archetype on top of Hawkguard, so you now key off Wisdom (aka better saves), and either conversion/reformation inquisition to boosts your socials or one of the blessings (Destruction is probably the better one). For the other side of the gestalt, I'd suggest Psychic Armory Gifted Blade Soulknife. The Panoply is a ranged weapon, and its attack and damage rolls key off Wisdom so you can pump Wisdom sky-high and boost everything from attacks to saves to class features.

If you are intent on staying as unarchetyped, I'd say to go with either Occultist (Passive bonuses via foci) or Tactician, or maybe even Aegis. Barbarian could do (Primal Hunter or Savage Technologist) since raging doesn't prevent you from using Warder abilities, but it'd be mostly you just adding to your attack and damage rolls.

[JonathanPDX]

-When SoH replaces CMB, all extra bonuses and maluses to your attack rolls still apply (Aka Point-Blank shot if applicable, range increment penalties, weapon enhancement bonus, competence bonuses, etc. To note though, if you have a competence bonus to attack rolls and a competence bonus to Sleight of Hand checks, you take the highest) And yes, Gloves of Larceny would boost the check significatively..

Thank you for all the great suggestions! I'm a bit unclear on how CMB is calculated with ranged maneuvers. They are worded "using a Sleight of Hand check in place of your combat maneuver check."
And the text for attempting a combat maneuver:
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."

So, for these ranged maneuvers I would be rolling SOH Skill (including feats like Skill Focus or Discipline Focus) + feat bonuses to hit + weapon enchantment (as "other effect?") +D20 (+1D6 if properly built Investigator) vs. the opponents CMD?
For example:
SOH total bonus: 19 (4 ranks, +3 trained, +4 dex, +5 Gloves or Larceny, +3 skill focus feat)
Point Blank Shot (+1 assuming target is within 30')
Precise shot (negates melee penalty, otherwise the -4 would apply if target was engaged)
Weapon enchant (+1)
Total ranged "CMB" for maneuvers = +21

Is that correct?
Thanks!
-JonathanPDX

[Elricaltovilla]

That is correct.

[JonathanPDX]

After taking your suggestions into consideration we put characters together, if you have any suggestions or improvements I'd love to hear them!

My archer is all about disabling foes with maneuvers, even at the expense of dealing competitive damage. I debated many options for the secondary class and in the end I could not find any option more enticing than Haste at level 5. Wizard gives me the highest ceiling, a few ways to augment my maneuver focus, and lots of utility, which was my primary goal. I wanted to focus on utility spells and some buffs for me or my teammates, though I don't expect to do much casting in combat, at least not until I have haste.

A couple questions about the archer below:
When calculating my ranged maneuvers that use Sleight of Hand in place of CMB, do I still have a -1 size modifier for being small, or is that part of the CMB number that is being replaced by SOH?
What's the best choice for my 3rd level feat? Weapon focus? I could go Discipline Focus instead but my maneuvers are already quite good.
I'm missing a few spells too, if you have any hidden gems to suggest.

Blue 4th Level Gestalt Wizard / Warder
Stats:
STR 9 (11 base -2 racial)
DEX 20 (17 base, +2 racial, +1 Transmutation School Bonus)
CON 15
INT 20 (17 base, +2 Racial, +1 level 4)
WIS 14
CHR 10

Feats:
*Point Blank Shot (1st level, Hawkguard)
*Wild Talent (2 PP, racial bonus)
*Scribe Scroll (1st Wizard)
*Precise Shot (3rd level Warder)
Skill Focus: Sleight of Hand (1st level)
3rd level feat TBD

Adventuring skills:
Spellcraft +4 (ranks) +3 (trained) +5 (stat)
Acrobatics +4 (ranks) +3 (trained) +5 (stat)
Survival +4 (ranks) +3 (trained) +2 (stat)
Knowledge: Arcana +4 (ranks) +3 (trained) +5 (stat)
Knowledge: Nature +4 (ranks) +3 (trained) +5 (stat)
Perception +4 (ranks) +3 (trained) +2 (stat) +2 (racial)
Stealth +4 (ranks) +5 (stat) +2 (racial)
9 skill points remaining
Background skills:
Sleight of Hand +4 (ranks) +3 (trained) +5 (stat) +3 (skill focus) +3 (familiar) +5 (item competence bonus)
Craft: Bows +4 (ranks) +3 (trained) +5 (stat)

Maneuvers:
Sniper’s Eye Stance (TG)
Disarming Shot (TG)
Deflecting Shot (TG)
Sudden Gust (TG)
Dustcatching Breeze (TG)

Eye of the Needle (TG)
Solar Flare (SW)
Feel the Wind (SW)
Phantom Sun Stance (SW)

Sleight of Hand modifier:
+23 base
+4 Sniper’s Eye Stance
+1 point blank shot (within 30’)
+1 size bonus to hit
-1 size bonus maneuver penalty
+1 masterwork bow
Total: +29

Wizard (4th level)

Level 0 spells:
Mage Hand
Prestidigitation
Detect Magic
Read Magic

Level 1 spells:
Shield
Abundant Ammunition
Mage Armor
True Strike
Disguise Self
Ant Haul
Enlarge Person
Jump

Level 2 spells:
Animal Aspect
Cat’s Grace

Arcane Bond: Raccoon - +3 Sleight of Hand

Primary school: Transmutation (Enhancement)

Opposition Schools:
Necromancy
Evocation

Equipment of note:
Gloves of Larceny
Efficient Quiver
Masterwork Longbow

The tank is similar, focused more on support than raw damage, using a polearm to maximize his Attacks of Opportunity and defend the largest area to keep the squishy characters safe. His damage won't be incredible but he'll dish out far more than my archer will. He went with the Soulknife as the best option to max all three saves and preserve his action economy, plus it frees up a lot of gold by not having to invest in a weapon.

Tank questions:
Is there a better polearm for him to emulate than the Lucerne Hammer? I feel like there's a better option but I can't think of what it is.
Is there a better Blade Skill to take than Combat Slide? The options for low levels are pretty slim.


Warder 4/soulknife gifted blade 4
str 18
dex 15
con 13
int 18
wis 12
cha 12

Maneuvers:
Crushing Blow(primal)
Piercing Strike(iron turtle)
*Iron Shell(iron turtle)
Hunting Party:(standard action)
*Pride Movement(golden lion)
*Distracting Strike(lvl2)(golden lion)
*enraging strike(lvl2)(iron turtle)
Stance
Phalanx Lancer(piercing thunder)
Running Hunter's Stance(primal)

Enhanced mind blade +1
Combat slide:
emulate weapon: Hammer, lucerne
manifester lvl2
power known expansion

Feats
soul knife lvl1 two weapon fighting
soul knife: psionic talent (2pp)
warder: combat reflexes
human lvl1 weapon focus lucerne hammer
lvl1 imp shield bash
lvl3 Discipline Focus iron turtle
warder bonus lvl3 shield focus

Items of note:
MW full plate 1,750gp ac+9 max dex 1 acp -5 50lbs
MW light steel shield with spikes

Any feedback is welcome. Thanks!
-JonathanPDX

[Tuvarkz]

Discipline Focus is incredibly good and you are quite underestimating it.

And your Hawkguard Warder should be taking Precise Shot at 1st, even without Skill Focus (Sleight of Hand), you already have a +20 bonus on it, which is more than enough. ((This also frees your 3rd level feat for either Powerful Marks or Extra Readied maneuver, or even Shield Focus so that you go for Shielded Caster Armor Mastery Feat and forgo the Buckler arcane spell failure if that 5% feels so dangerous))

I'd also suggest taking a buckler so that you can use Iron Tortoise maneuvers, particularly because its arcane spell failure chance is negligible and you can always unequip it as a move action if you need a mid-combat spell.
Also, that 15 in CON is useless. Drop it to 14, Drop Charisma to 8, this gives you another 4 points, letting you pump Strength to 14 before racials, and with that you can take a composite longbow.

Regarding the Warder//Soulknife.
First, go Ordained Defender, switch Intelligence and Wisdom around, drop charisma down to 7 and Dex to 14, boost Con to 14, Int to 14, and spread the rest around as see fit. You have literally no use for Charisma at all, particularly when you should be able to switch your social skills to Wisdom via either the Reformation or the Conversion inquisitions.
Do not bother with TWFing, more of a waste of feats when you don't need that investment to deal adequate damage and it's not your primary roll to stand in place and full attack. Weapon Focus is not a feat worth a slot either, since you can grab it via Ioun Stone+Wayfinder Resonance for a cheap 2000 gp.
Instead, take Power Attack, and Shield Focus as your level 1 feat-Thus at level three, you get to grab Shield Brace, and Two-hand your weapon while still wielding a shield (Get a darkwood heavy wooden shield)
It isn't necessary to go with a full plate from the get-go, particularly because you should be aiming to stick to a chain shirt or breastplate until you can go for that +1 Mithral Fusing Full Plate and its full movement speed goodness.
Also, consider taking Augmented Blade archetype, so that you qualify more easily into Cut from the Air/Smash from the Air, since the archetype nets you weapon training at 6th.

[JonathanPDX]

Thank you for the suggestions! I forgot to mention, our stats were rolled, not bought with points, so we're stuck with what the dice said. Hence my 9 strength. :)