OOTS #1065 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[dancrilis]

I admit that got a solid chuckle throughout.

[HUMVEE Driver]

That's the third time Elan tried this!

[SaintRidley]

This continues to not be good work on Andi's part.

[Cuthalion]

That flashback panel. :smalltongue:

[Chei]

Well okay, I stand corrected. Andi is awesome at this, guys. Pack it up and go home.

[Rogan]

I love it :smallbiggrin:

But I have to admit, I am surprised Elan still remembers the question from Bard Camp

[JumboWheat01]

I'm starting to think Elan has a negative concentration score. It's so bad that he can't even focus on the subject at hand.

Still funny, though.

[Kranerian]

I guess that's what Elan gets for not concentrating in class.

[Kalmegil]

This one time, at Bard camp...

[Tobtor]

I have to admit, I am surprised Elan still remembers the question from Bard Camp

But it is such an essential and important question! You do not need to concentrate on it, it is always there at the back of your mind ready to pop out at the most inconvenient moments...

[Peelee]

Good lord, I'm starting to think Elan really would be a better captain...

[Temotei]

Good lord, I'm starting to think Elan really would be a better captain...

He'd know they're not out of this yet. Too genre savvy.

[Ridureyu]

Absolute proof that Andi is not only right in everything she says, but genuinely awesome. People who disagree deserve a wrench to the head!

[DolGrenn]

I mean, he's probably close enough now (or has been recently) to go ahead and try tasting one.

[DarioD]

I did think Elan was becoming a bit too effective :tongue:
Nice comic as always, thanks Giant!

[hamishspence]

Going "we didn't crash, I'm awesome at this" after a collision, tells us something about Andi's ego.

[KorvinStarmast]

Good lord, I'm starting to think Elan really would be a better captain...
Yeah, maybe. As chief engineer he's not the best choice.

In the thread for 1063 or 1064, someone predicted that Elan's next mend would be interrupted by the next maneuver. They called it, so a tip of the cap!
-----------------------------
So many things to enjoy about this strip:

Helmsman once again calls for a decision when Andi dithers ...
Sound effect of props hitting mountain/glacier/ice. Skrrrrtk!
Flashback to Bard camp which explains why it's so easy for Elan to lose concentration.
Vanilla, the obvious answer.
I'd have hoped for more material in the last three frames, but Rich has often used the "awkward pause" of just facial expressions before. This is a good follow up / emphasis on Elan, the Unconcentrator. (Not to mention the slowly increasing amount of leaking gas ...)


Good strip, and I once again really enjoy the new art style.
Thanks, Giant.

[Jasdoif]

But clouds taste of butter...and tears. Suppose that doesn't strictly rule out vanilla though.

(I should really finish Oblivion one of these days, but I don't want to subject myself to its level-scaling.)

[Frecus]

I'm feeling you Elan...

And it's obviously either cream or lemon! Duh!

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

[JBiddles]

The nice thing about Bards is that Elan has a lot of Mendings to spare.

Also, Andi is not going to be in the Order's good books.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm feeling you Elan...

And it's obviously either cream or lemon! Duh!

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior
Clouds taste like the meringue on the top of a lemon meringue pie.



Also, Andi is not going to be in the Order's good books. While that's probably true, I doubt Andi cares.

[hroþila]

Well okay, I stand corrected. Andi is awesome at this, guys. Pack it up and go home.
You gotta admit, she's doing much better than 50% of unqualified people would be.

[Sniffnoy]

Scraping a mountain in an airship? Ouch! Good thing Elan's a D&D characters!

[happycrow]

I'm now incurably curious as to what's on the side of the ship which may have been damaged.

[Keltest]

Never change, Elan.

[Chei]

You gotta admit, she's doing much better than 50% of unqualified people would be.

That's only on the assumption that turning to port would have resulted in more serious damage or a crash.

Though I understand your point, of course.

[Valerem]

I just love how Elan's media awareness is so strong here. Flashbacking to Bard Camp and answering his own question in real time. XD

[enderlord99]

They taste metallic, like blood, but much, MUCH less so.

Source: it gets foggy here sometimes.

[Crusher]

- what do we want?

- a cure for add!

- when do we want it?

- squirrel!

[Chei]

I just love how Elan's media awareness is so strong here. Flashbacking to Bard Camp and answering his own question in real time. XD

He paid just enough attention in Concentration class to know he'd have to flashback to it later.

[AutomatedTeller]

That was fun, but the party is becoming more and more split. Roy and Elan on the ship, Belkar off alone, V and Haley off on their own.

Not boding so well, particularly as they don't know where they are.

[Anarion]

I'm sure he'll eventually succeed at casting mending before something terrible happens. And also that Roy will fight off the giants and resolve everything on the ship. :smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

So in OOTS-verse, do those with ADD get sick a lot due to low Concentration?

Asking for a friend named Elan. :smallsmile:

And the title applies to Andi and to Elan as well. Note how Andi is concerned about the little picture - the state of the hardware - and not the big picture of "Do we know where we're headed and whether there's a mysterious mist that will transport us to OOTS-Barovia around the corner?".

[happycrow]

- what do we want?

- a cure for add!

- when do we want it?

- squirrel!

Congratulations, Crusher. It is only page 2, and you have already won the thread.

[Gift Jeraff]

This continues to not be good work on Andi's part.


Well okay, I stand corrected. Andi is awesome at this, guys. Pack it up and go home.


Absolute proof that Andi is not only right in everything she says, but genuinely awesome. People who disagree deserve a wrench to the head!


Going "we didn't crash, I'm awesome at this" after a collision, tells us something about Andi's ego.


Yeah, maybe. As chief engineer he's not the best choice.

In the thread for 1063 or 1064, someone predicted that Elan's next mend would be interrupted by the next maneuver. They called it, so a tip of the cap!
-----------------------------
So many things to enjoy about this strip:

Helmsman once again calls for a decision when Andi dithers ...
Sound effect of props hitting mountain/glacier/ice. Skrrrrtk!
Flashback to Bard camp which explains why it's so easy for Elan to lose concentration.
Vanilla, the obvious answer.
I'd have hoped for more material in the last three frames, but Rich has often used the "awkward pause" of just facial expressions before. This is a good follow up / emphasis on Elan, the Unconcentrator. (Not to mention the slowly increasing amount of leaking gas ...)


Good strip, and I once again really enjoy the new art style.
Thanks, Giant.


The nice thing about Bards is that Elan has a lot of Mendings to spare.

Also, Andi is not going to be in the Order's good books.


Clouds taste like the meringue on the top of a lemon meringue pie.


While that's probably true, I doubt Andi cares.

Captain Andromeda*

[mr-mercer]

I'm honestly surprised and pleased that the ship didn't crash and burn immediately: I doubt most of the people on board would survive that. Here's hoping that the order can fix most of the remaining problems and get the chance to deal with the Andi situation. I'd really like to have that put to bed sooner rather than later.

[Shining Wrath]

Clouds taste like the meringue on the top of a lemon meringue pie.


While that's probably true, I doubt Andi cares.

Clouds taste like a whole lot of disassociated bits belonging to a million different people. How do I know? I took a byte. And the thing about high level adventuring parties is that they have ways of making people who disappoint them feel sorry. Andi is just lucky that Roy will get to her before V does, because V wouldn't even need the gust of wind this time.


Never change, Elan.

I almost posted those exact words. I'm glad I didn't, as your lawyers would have had my shiny self in court for violation of your copyright.

[Yendor]

Elan failed his Concentration check to learn Concentration. :smallwink:

Is that stray hand in panel five supposed to be there?

Oh, and look, they're losing altitude. What a surprise.

[drazen]

- what do we want?

- a cure for add!

- when do we want it?

- squirrel!

ADHD may actually have been an evolutionary advantage to early humanity - quick responses and innovation. The jungle was the classroom. Elan might be random, but his weird brain saved them from a TPK at the end of BRitF.

Poor Elan, he actually is trying and on the right track, and he's being undermined by everyone else. I suppose it's karma, but that's a bummer as he has grown a fair bit.

Maybe Elan should have just flashed the frost giants like when he used to turn "invisible" in the early strips. It gets his own party to look away, why not the giants? ;)

[goodpeople25]

Captain Andromeda*
If I strike someone in anger and call a coin flip correctly (even if I called it a little late and it caused a mishap because of it but it caused no damage we can tell currently) can I be called captain too? :smallsmile: I'd clearly be awesome at it. Pretty please with sugar on top?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Wow, Andi's visionary leadership is already pushing us to unmatched heights. Truly, she has a dizzying intellect!

[SethoMarkus]

Huh, maybe the Giant really does read these discussions... I know he doesn't, but...

[dancrilis]

If I strike someone in anger and call a coin flip correctly (even if I called it a little late and it caused a mishap because of it but it caused no damage we can tell currently) can I be called captain too? :smallsmile: I'd clearly be awesome at it. Pretty please with sugar on top?

If you throw in the people on a ship following your instructions (and calling you captain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html)) ... sure.

[Peelee]

Huh, maybe the Giant really does read these discussions... I know he doesn't, but...

I'm pretty sure he does, for the first few pages at least. Highly doubt it affects how he makes the story.

[Psyren]

Man, bards are such hippies :smalltongue:


Elan failed his Concentration check to learn Concentration. :smallwink:

You'd think they'd have a method of teaching that, you know, assumes their students would be bad at the thing they're trying to teach!

[Jay R]

OK, she turned the ship in time and didn't crash head-on into the ice. That doesn't mean they aren't going to sink.

Haven't you people seen Titanic?

[Jasdoif]

You'd think they'd have a method of teaching that, you know, assumes their students would be bad at the thing they're trying to teach!A spell that temporarily grants them Skill Focus: Concentration, at very least....

[factotum]

I'm now incurably curious as to what's on the side of the ship which may have been damaged.

I doubt anything got damaged there. The real damage of that collision was another fizzled Mending so the massive gash in the balloon gets another round to leak lifting gas. At this rate the Mechane isn't going to stay in the air long, even if they were to come out of the mountains right now...

[ref]

That's a classic Elan moment right there.

[Keltest]

*spots twitter feed*

Hey, come on Rich, weve only mentioned it like twice. So far.

[Akisa]

The clouds would taste silvery after all each cloud has a silver lining.

[Shining Wrath]

For those who don't follow the Dear Leader on Twitter:


Forum Reaction: Strange that a spellcaster didn't max Concentration skill ranks. Twitter Reaction: CLOUDS ARE OBVIOUSLY COTTON CANDY!!

[goodpeople25]

If you throw in the people on a ship following your instructions (and calling you captain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html)) ... sure.
Okay I'll get to the rest of it latter but for now keep posting.:smallbiggrin:
did I not have enough smilies?:smallbiggrin::smallsmile::smallwink::smal lcool::smalltongue: And with that out of the way it was meant to be this strip specific (plus the initial act of course) as it's not like we weren't calling her Andi on the forums before this strip

[8BitNinja]

No Elan. Just. No.

The clouds are obviously coconut flavored. Everyone knows that.

[xroads]

I forget, is mending a cantrip in 3.5? And were cantrips unlimited?

It has been awhile since I played 3.5. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Also I'm voting with lemon meringue being the flavor of clouds.

[Chei]

For those who don't follow the Dear Leader on Twitter:

I tried following The Giant on Twitter, but I kept falling into his footprints.

Now is that the millionth time someone's made that joke, or just the 999,999th?

[Legato Endless]

Going "we didn't crash, I'm awesome at this" after a collision, tells us something about Andi's ego.

She's certainly not suffering from crippling self doubt. Especially since her waffling bold leadership decision was essentially a roll of the dice which didn't manage to kill them.

[JumboWheat01]

The clouds would taste silvery after all each cloud has a silver lining.

So does that mean clouds could be used as weapons against lycanthropes?

[dancrilis]

I forget, is mending a cantrip in 3.5? And were cantrips unlimited?

Yes. No*.

*But he can cast a lot of them if he can substitute higher level spells.

[Themrys]

Hm, I had a theory that Andi was possessed by an evil entity, but now it appears she is just genuinely that dumb. Which is strange because one would think someone would have noticed that before.

Or the evil entity possessing her is just clever enough to make her appear genuinely dumb ... but I don't think that's the case, an author can't be too subtle about such things or the audience will get angry when it is revealed ...


Elan is the clearly the more self-aware person here. He never learnt a literal lesson, and is aware of it, while Andi failed to learn a lesson in the metaphorical sense and remains completely ignorant that there was something to learn, even.

[Peelee]

I forget, is mending a cantrip in 3.5? And were cantrips unlimited?

It has been awhile since I played 3.5. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Also I'm voting with lemon meringue being the flavor of clouds.

3.5 had a limit on cantrips per day, just like all other spell levels.

[Kish]

Andi is awesome at this. Just don't ask what "this" is.

[Basement Cat]

I've got feels that the other shoe is about to drop. :smalleek:

[pendell]

Andi seems to be a poster child for the Dunning-Kruger effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect)



A cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is. Dunning and Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive incapacity, on the part of those with low ability, to recognize their ineptitude and evaluate their competence accurately. Their research also suggests corollaries: high-ability individuals may underestimate their relative competence and may erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.



That, I fear is exactly the position we're in with Andi; she's so inept she doesn't even realize the magnitude of her incompetence.

ETA: I was once diagnosed ADD/ADHD, and my experience is that ADD doesn't mean you can't concentrate. I have periods of hyper-concentration in which I am so totally focused on one task that I can hardly do anything else. A lot of my work-productivity comes from inducing a 'trance' of this form for limited periods of time.

EATA: There's a quote that's applicable to this situation.

"Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him. "

Elan is a fool, but he's teachable. Andi, by contrast, won't learn so she's worse off regardless of what her INT/WIS score actually is.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Akisa]

So does that mean clouds could be used as weapons against lycanthropes?

Why yes of course!

[Chei]

Elan is the clearly the more self-aware person here. He never learnt a literal lesson, and is aware of it, while Andi failed to learn a lesson in the metaphorical sense and remains completely ignorant that there was something to learn, even.

You cannot learn a thing you think you know.

[Shining Wrath]

I tried following The Giant on Twitter, but I kept falling into his footprints.

Now is that the millionth time someone's made that joke, or just the 999,999th?

Evidently you suffer from shortcomings as a tracker. Are you a halfling? Why, yes, you are.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Clouds taste like the meringue on the top of a lemon meringue pie.

I suspect the flavors of clouds are many and varied, given the sheer number of ways 3.5 has to make a cloud (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html). For example, I can't imagine a Stinking Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stinkingCloud.htm) tastes very good.

Edit:


Is that stray hand in panel five supposed to be there?

You know, at first I thought that was just a part of the Mechane, but going back and looking at the same area in other strips would suggest that it's not. Whose hand is that, and what is it doing in that panel (And why is it apparently unattached to anyone? Is it Thing T. Thing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_(The_Addams_Family)), or a relative thereof?)?

[SaintRidley]

Captain Andromeda*

Interim Captain Andromeda Dummkopf.

[JT]

You gotta admit, she's doing much better than 50% of unqualified people would be.

Untrue. We don't know whether there was a right/wrong choice to make. We only know that the choice that was made wasn't (immediately) wrong. Could be that either direction would have them scrape a mountain, but still be alive for the next crucial decision.

And by the way, Awesome Andi ... What about those giants fighting with Roy? Are you going to worry about the battle on your deck, or just concern yourself with making a second non-disastrous direction decision?

[Quibblicious]

Absolute proof that Andi is not only right in everything she says, but genuinely awesome. People who disagree deserve a wrench to the head!

I'll take one of those!

Oh... wait... you said wrench. I didn't see that 'r'....

Q

[Quibblicious]

Flashback to Bard camp which explains why it's so easy for Elan to lose concentration.
Vanilla, the obvious answer.




You'd think the color would reflect the flavors... white would be vanilla, the sunset would be an array of tasty sherbets or sorbets, the rare green clouds before a tornado nasty pistachio (which is an evil evil flavor that is not mint chocolate chip despite looking like it... darn you, pistachio! Darn you straight to heck!), and the burgeoning storm clouds a deep chocolate.

Now I want dessert...

Q

[Aedilred]

This continues to not be good work on Andi's part.

What do you mean? She's awesome at this! In her own words! :smallsigh:

Yeah, this is textbook incompetent leadership. We don't know whether the other option would have been better, but faffing about like that failing to make a decision in a crisis moment is really terrible captaincy. If the crew know what's good for them she'll be getting off at the next stop, if not before.

[KorvinStarmast]

Captain Andromeda* Mutineer Andromeda.
What do you mean? She's awesome at this! In her own words! :smallsigh:
A legend in her own mind.

I'll hazard a guess that the spare hand (panel 5) belongs to Felix.

[Peelee]

I'll take one of those!

Oh... wait... you said wrench. I didn't see that 'r'....

Q

How can you miss the arrrr when this whole arc is full of pirates?

[Freed]

Clouds taste like dreams. OR NIGHTMARES!!!! MUHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAAHHA!!!!!!! But mostly dreams.

[137beth]

He'd know they're not out of this yet. Too genre savvy.

But he'd also know that he'd have to believe he was out of trouble, in order to heighten the tension for when it turns out there is still danger.

[Anonymouswizard]

Well you know how the saying goes, 'if you hit someone more competent with a wrench and ignore valid counter arguments then you'll never realise you've failed.'

...what? Do none of your families have that saying?

Anyway, I hope Elan fixes the Mechane just in time to get Bandana a healing spell to take back command and prove her competence. Or well one round before, but he'll know he has to wait.

Also, the panel 5 hand is obviously a copy of the pilot's hand in panel 1, and clouds taste like freshly baked bread.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Also, the panel 5 hand is obviously a copy of the pilot's hand in panel 1, and clouds taste like freshly baked bread.

It does look an awful lot like the helmsman's (Mateo's?) hand in panel 1, but that leaves me wondering how it managed to detach itself from him and travel to the other side of the bridge without anyone remarking on it, or apparently even noticing.

[luagha]

On the plus side, no giants in this here box canyon.

On the minus side, we're about to find out WHY there are no giants in this here box canyon.

[luagha]

I forget, is mending a cantrip in 3.5? And were cantrips unlimited?

It has been awhile since I played 3.5. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Also I'm voting with lemon meringue being the flavor of clouds.

Elan is a spontaneous caster, so he can start using 2nd, 3rd, 4th level slots for Mending if he fails enough times.

[Kish]

On the plus side, no giants in this here box canyon.

On the minus side, we're about to find out WHY there are no giants in this here box canyon.
I suspect it's as simple as "because, being off the pass, it doesn't lead to the other side of the mountain range and there's no reason to ever go there."

[TheNecrocomicon]

Fantastic, now Andi's personal confirmation bias is just going to magnify her arrogance and entitled attitude. This is only going to end worse.

How long can coin flips on sheer dumb luck get you through the uncharted back-forty of an entire mountain range? The odds of successfully navigating such a field are probably 3720 to 1. The more this continues to degenerate, the dimmer the prospects get for the ship and crew making it through this alive and/or in one piece.

And I think somebody upthread asked what the Mechane probably broke in that little maneuver? Most likely a portside ballista and a ventral stabilizer, unless it's the spots where they got hit already back in #1051 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1051.html), which probably now means a hull breach. Maybe it's the portside dorsal propeller (you can see the starboard one in the second panel), or maybe the rocks made a bunch of abrasions or rips in the balloon higher up, Titanic-style, that Elan may not be capable of Mending due to positioning or size.

What I'd like to see happen, assuming the ship, crew and Order pull through this ...
:haley: Nicely done, "Captain". It's a shame about Bandana, hopefully she's fine, but we've heard the crew's complaints about the peril and we'd like to compensate you a little extra for all your trouble.

*hands over a bag and walks off*

Andi: *pulls out a piece of paper* What's this? We're a pirate crew, we don't take cheques!

:vaarsuvius: Please accept this token of our appreciation.

Andi: What the--

*BOOM*

[danielxcutter]

Serious post: Come on Andi, we knew that you were completely inept at leading, but do you really have to dig yourself deeper?

Unserious post: CLOUDS TASTE LIKE BUTTERED POPCORN!

[SethoMarkus]

What I'd like to see happen, assuming the ship, crew and Order pull through this ...
:haley: Nicely done, "Captain". It's a shame about Bandana, hopefully she's fine, but we've heard the crew's complaints about the peril and we'd like to compensate you a little extra for all your trouble.

*hands over a bag and walks off*

Andi: *pulls out a piece of paper* What's this? We're a pirate crew, we don't take cheques!

:vaarsuvius: Please accept this token of our appreciation.

Andi: What the--

*BOOM*


While I highly doubt that will happen, I have to agree that I would love to see that exchange!

[Angel Bob]

I fear for the crew of the Mechane. They're stuck on a damaged ship in hostile territory, surrounded by frost giants and, potentially, vampires. I wouldn't be surprised to see them picked off one by one after the eventual crash and join Durkon's unholy host.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I fear for the crew of the Mechane. They're stuck on a damaged ship in hostile territory, surrounded by frost giants and, potentially, vampires. I wouldn't be surprised to see them picked off one by one after the eventual crash and join Durkon's unholy host.

Lurkon's "unholy host" of four vampires is deep in dwarven territory focusing on the elders who they are aiming to dominate and probably busy keeping the wrath of the dwarven armed forces off their backs. Plus they lost Malack's staff and they can't hasten the vampiric transition for their newest victims.

It's Thrym's job and his followers' job to blockade the Order's journey to Firmament. What we don't know is how many other Hel-aligned deities have their own followers out there as backup.

[Morquard]

I doubt anything got damaged there. The real damage of that collision was another fizzled Mending so the massive gash in the balloon gets another round to leak lifting gas. At this rate the Mechane isn't going to stay in the air long, even if they were to come out of the mountains right now...

Yes, which might mean they can't even go the way back they came, since they're too low now.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[keybounce]

OK, she turned the ship in time and didn't crash head-on into the ice. That doesn't mean they aren't going to sink.

Haven't you people seen Titanic?

Hey, the Titanic did not sink because it ran into an iceberg. No, it was floating just fine.

It sank because, eager to actually arrive on time, the captain decided to resume sail before making sure the ship was repaired.

... wait a sec ...

[8BitNinja]

Hey, the Titanic did not sink because it ran into an iceberg. No, it was floating just fine.

It sank because, eager to actually arrive on time, the captain decided to resume sail before making sure the ship was repaired.

... wait a sec ...

I don't think the iceberg sank the Titanic

I think it was Jack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRA2OrZTiwY

(Content Warning for small children, nuns, and people who don't like to hear bad words: Some Strong Language)

[TheNecrocomicon]

Hey, the Titanic did not sink because it ran into an iceberg. No, it was floating just fine.

It sank because, eager to actually arrive on time, the captain decided to resume sail before making sure the ship was repaired.

... wait a sec ...

It sustained enough damage to the forward five to six compartments to sink it regardless. The difference is that it could have taken longer to sink if it hadn't been driven forwards, forcing yet more water into the irreparably holed compartments. And that, in turn, could have given the opportunity to save a lot more lives -- that, and if the captain and crew of the Californian hadn't crit-failed their own Spot check.

[Onyavar]

I'm honestly surprised and pleased that the ship didn't crash and burn immediately
You're thinking Lakehurst accident. That airship was filled with hydrogen. While the Mechane floats with helium, much less flammable.


Serious post: Come on Andi, we knew that you were completely inept at leading, but do you really have to dig yourself deeper?!

I guess this is the forum readers fault. Too many were still somehow sympathising with Andi, so the Giant felt obliged to make her utterly unlikeable even though a majority of readers already despise her strongly enough. It's called the Miko effect, named after a long since forgotten cameo character.

[8BitNinja]

You're thinking Lakehurst accident. That airship was filled with hydrogen. While the Mechane floats with helium, much less flammable.

I guess the shipwright could see into the future and see what happened with the Hindenburg

[nocoolnamejim]

Hm, I had a theory that Andi was possessed by an evil entity, but now it appears she is just genuinely that dumb. Which is strange because one would think someone would have noticed that before.

Or the evil entity possessing her is just clever enough to make her appear genuinely dumb ... but I don't think that's the case, an author can't be too subtle about such things or the audience will get angry when it is revealed ...


Elan is the clearly the more self-aware person here. He never learnt a literal lesson, and is aware of it, while Andi failed to learn a lesson in the metaphorical sense and remains completely ignorant that there was something to learn, even.

I had the same reaction as this to the thread title when looking at the comic. It very well could be referring to Elan OR Andi.

Elan is clearly aware of a lesson that he never learned and that's the first step towards actually learning it. Andi manages through sheer dumb luck (and some ace flying by the actual pilot) to avoid crashing and killing her ship within minutes of taking it over - although she may well have damaged it further - and concludes she's awesome.

I wonder if Giant isn't literally parodying some of the Andi apologists at this point.

[sabremeister]

It seems clear at this point that Elan is not going to realise/leap to the conclusion that he is the True Heir of Julio Scoundrel vis-a-vis airship captaining, and swoop in to re-assert sensible command (or at least take it away from Andi). Apart from anything else, I doubt Andi would be willing to listen to anyone except Julio at this point.

Also, given Andi's questions in panel 5, it seems that the engines are the important things to worry about. I'm not an airman of any description, but I have a basic understanding of aerodynamics, and I would have thought that the hull damage/deformation and damage/deformation of control surfaces would be of higher priority to worry about. This suggests that either Andi was exaggerating the damage the giants were doing to the ship, or that the Engineer (who looks after the engines) and the Carpenter (who looks after things made of wood) are two different people on the Mechane. And (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html) yet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0961.html)...

[8BitNinja]

It seems clear at this point that Elan is not going to realise/leap to the conclusion that he is the True Heir of Julio Scoundrel vis-a-vis airship captaining, and swoop in to re-assert sensible command (or at least take it away from Andi). Apart from anything else, I doubt Andi would be willing to listen to anyone except Julio at this point.

Maybe it isn't dramatically the most appropriate moment.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I suspect it's as simple as "because, being off the pass, it doesn't lead to the other side of the mountain range and there's no reason to ever go there."

Actually, there is an argument to be made that in a D&D world, wandering off the beaten pass will land you in much, much worse trouble than a simple "this canyon leads nowhere". Here there be dragons, and all manner of strange beasts, after all.

But we shall see soon enough, either way.

GW

[Hamste]

Also, given Andi's questions in panel 5, it seems that the engines are the important things to worry about. I'm not an airman of any description, but I have a basic understanding of aerodynamics, and I would have thought that the hull damage/deformation and damage/deformation of control surfaces would be of higher priority to worry about. This suggests that either Andi was exaggerating the damage the giants were doing to the ship, or that the Engineer (who looks after the engines) and the Carpenter (who looks after things made of wood) are two different people on the Mechane. And (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html) yet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0961.html)...

Why would the hull be the primary concern for an airship? I mean if it deforms too much or if there was a giant gaping hole the air would slow down the ship but the external part of the engines, steering and balloon seems a bit more important to worry about after a scrape than if whether or not there is a gaping hole in the side as the first three would most likely end with a crash if they were destroyed while a gaping hole just means they are stuck going slower or if they lost some storage.

[Peelee]

I guess the shipwright could see into the future and see what happened with the Hindenburg

Actually, most german airships were filled with hydrogen because they didn't have access to enough helium. America not wanting to give them that much and all. American airships were largely helium-lifted.

[Erzengel]

Regarding the apparently disembodied hand... I believe you are looking at the back of the pilot, who is covered by a speech bubble except for a bit of clothing and a hand grasping the wheel.


Edit: .... nevermind, after going back a few strips, the layout of the bridge contradicts that a bit. What I thought was a scrap of clothing... is probably not. The mystery is still afoot.

[Yendor]

The mystery is still afoot.

Not a foot, a hand. :smalltongue:

[KillingAScarab]

Bard camp had far fewer half-elves in attendance than I expected. ...although, we can only see one of their ears, each.


That was fun, but the party is becoming more and more split. Roy and Elan on the ship, Belkar off alone, V and Haley off on their own.

Not boding so well, particularly as they don't know where they are.The airship is slowing down and it is getting lower, which will make it easier to catch up with.


So in OOTS-verse, do those with ADD get sick a lot due to low Concentration?

Asking for a friend named Elan. :smallsmile:Elan has been airsick (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0950.html) far less than Blackwing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html), so there's that.

[SethoMarkus]

Not a foot, a hand. :smalltongue:

I've got to hand it to you, that was clever.

[ref]

Andi Schmandi.

The visiting captain called heads. It was heads.

And now he's the GOAT captain. Meh.

[Olinser]

Why would the hull be the primary concern for an airship? I mean if it deforms too much or if there was a giant gaping hole the air would slow down the ship but the external part of the engines, steering and balloon seems a bit more important to worry about after a scrape than if whether or not there is a gaping hole in the side as the first three would most likely end with a crash if they were destroyed while a gaping hole just means they are stuck going slower or if they lost some storage.

The hull keeps the whole ship together and distributes the weight. A ship in water a great amount of the weight of the ship is on the water. On an airship the hull structure takes all the weight of everything its carrying.

Add that to the fact that its not just slowing the ship down - the drag and pressure is going right onto that breach.

If the hull is sufficiently damaged (especially if structural braces are compromised) the weight isn't going to be evenly distributed throughout the structure of the ship and its own weight is going to start ripping sections out of the ship until it finds balance again.

[Escapist]

Here's hoping the Order somehow blunders their way to safety through sheer dumb luck, and find an alternate path.

Much more likely that it'll SEEM like that's what is going to happen and at the last minute things will go even more wrong than they were before :smalltongue:

[Rogar Demonblud]

Andi continues to survive with help from Dumb Luck checks. It's barely a middling successful tactic short-term; forget long-term.


ETA: I was once diagnosed ADD/ADHD, and my experience is that ADD doesn't mean you can't concentrate. I have periods of hyper-concentration in which I am so totally focused on one task that I can hardly do anything else. A lot of my work-productivity comes from inducing a 'trance' of this form for limited periods of time.

Easily distracted, periods of hyper-concentration...You're a Spark?

[JoeyTheNeko]

I just hope when andi's luck runs out, it doesn't mean the orders has too.

[toapat]

I'm now incurably curious as to what's on the side of the ship which may have been damaged.

easily over 100 mooring posts that will have been ripped loose or stressed close to their engineering tolerances, as well as Elan and the ship's Hull, along with Engine brackets and the beams those are mounted to, and an engine and propeller

Andi literally ordered 10 times as much damage to the ship as Bandana and Julio had on camera, and much more expensive damage even over special engineering commissions and rush orders. the worst damage under Bandana the ship suffered was Blackwing taking 1 on a UMD check OR Thor trying to snipe his rogue cleric, both of which were minimized with extreme force. Julio absolutely has dealt more damage to the ship in his lifetime than Bandana because of, well, being a Sky Pirate. Burns are cosmetic, pulverized Soarwood is not.

Hell, the flotation bladders probably are the most expensive part of the Ship and thats because they have to be aluminum plated in order to retain the Helium elementals.

[factotum]

It sustained enough damage to the forward five to six compartments to sink it regardless. The difference is that it could have taken longer to sink if it hadn't been driven forwards, forcing yet more water into the irreparably holed compartments.

I think you may be confusing the Titanic with the Britannic. The Titanic's engines were put in full reverse as soon as the iceberg was sighted--in fact, that might be part of the reason the ship failed to steer out of the way in time, because the central propeller couldn't be reversed (being driven by a steam turbine) and so there was less water flow over the rudder to steer the ship. It came to a halt not long after the impact.

The Britannic, on the other hand, hit a mine in shallow water in the Mediterranean, and was driven at full speed toward the nearest beach in the hope it could be beached before it sank. However, as the ship settled by the head and the propellers lifted out of the water, they dragged in a nearby lifeboat and smashed it (and its occupants) to bits. It was only at that point that the engines were stopped.

[TeCoolMage]

I can't wait for Andi to notice she still has to fix stuff, and find out where exactly she is relative to the dwarven lands now that she's off path.

Can we get to the part where Roy uses a full action to destroy Andi and her phylactery or something

Next up: "Andi, we have to make another turn"
"Uhhhhhh" *boom*

[dancrilis]

Andi continues to survive with help from Dumb Luck checks. It's barely a middling successful tactic short-term; forget long-term.

Isn't it the entire basis of many stories - a series of unlikely (and dangerous) events occur and eventually everything works out.


I just hope when andi's luck runs out, it doesn't mean the orders has too.

I kindof hope her luck never runs out.



Can we get to the part where Roy uses a full action to destroy Andi and her phylactery or something

This kindof confuses me - assuming that everything continues to work out why would the Order care?

Roy: Why aren't we on the pass?
Andi: Certain doom.
Belkar: Why is that one whose name I never bothered learning tied up?
Andi: Certain doom.
Belkar: Oh want her dead?
Andi: ... no.
Elan: But we are still going to Firmament? It is super important.
Andi: Sure - once we can make the trip without certain doom for all on board. Might discuss with the crew and than Roy about changing payment to cover some raise deads for our crewmates.
Roy: Hmm ... yea they are only dead to help us I suppose.
Elan: Hurray.
Belkar: Meh.
Andi: Still have pleanty of healing potions for any who need them.

Vaarsuvius might well have an 'I defer to your greater expertise with airships' approach.

The only one that might seem to object is Haley - and even than certain doom is likely a reasonable reason to take action from her prespective.

If things don't continue to work out than it would likely depend on how they do not for how the order will react but assuming that the Order's reaction will be violant death for Andi and any who support her seems unsupported by the text of the comic to date.

[warmachine]

Andi makes a terrible leader. When you have to make a decision and there's no time to consult, make a decision and stick with it. And when a leader isn't a good pilot, tell the pilot the required direction and let him handle the piloting decisions.

[Kareasint]

Actually, there is an argument to be made that in a D&D world, wandering off the beaten pass will land you in much, much worse trouble than a simple "this canyon leads nowhere". Here there be dragons, and all manner of strange beasts, after all.

But we shall see soon enough, either way.

GW

Simply put, that many Frost Giants are going to have young White Dragons with them. Elan does not have enough spell slots to cover the damage that a flyer will do to the air bag.

If the air ship is on a dead end path, they will likely be cornered and disabled.

[Cerlis]

i do like his critical thinking.

"its the obvious answer but is it TO obvious?"

[TeCoolMage]

This kindof confuses me - assuming that everything continues to work out why would the Order care?

Roy: Why aren't we on the pass?
Andi: Certain doom.
Belkar: Why is that one whose name I never bothered learning tied up?
Andi: Certain doom.
Belkar: Oh want her dead?
Andi: ... no.
Elan: But we are still going to Firmament? It is super important.
Andi: Sure - once we can make the trip without certain doom for all on board. Might discuss with the crew and than Roy about changing payment to cover some raise deads for our crewmates.
Roy: Hmm ... yea they are only dead to help us I suppose.
Elan: Hurray.
Belkar: Meh.
Andi: Still have pleanty of healing potions for any who need them.

Vaarsuvius might well have an 'I defer to your greater expertise with airships' approach.

The only one that might seem to object is Haley - and even than certain doom is likely a reasonable reason to take action from her prespective.

If things don't continue to work out than it would likely depend on how they do not for how the order will react but assuming that the Order's reaction will be violant death for Andi and any who support her seems unsupported by the text of the comic to date.

*Roy rolls his sense motive check against Andi's low charisma and finds out Andi just got angry and assaulted someone simply because they didn't agree with her*

*Belkar never gets to the ship, neither does V, or Haley, since they'll be going down the pass against several miles of frost giants and the Mechane is on a different path*

*Roy takes a full action to use his green sword flame to destroy Andi*

*The ship crashes anyway or reaches a dead end*

And it ends with Roy walking the rest of the way with Elan behind him while V eventually runs out of spells against the giants and Haley is unable to get sneak attacks off consistently, so they go into hiding in the mountains, V has to spend several pages casting sending spells to Belkar and Roy, and they all rendezvous at a far away location, and by then the world has ended.

[Hamste]

The hull keeps the whole ship together and distributes the weight. A ship in water a great amount of the weight of the ship is on the water. On an airship the hull structure takes all the weight of everything its carrying.

Add that to the fact that its not just slowing the ship down - the drag and pressure is going right onto that breach.

If the hull is sufficiently damaged (especially if structural braces are compromised) the weight isn't going to be evenly distributed throughout the structure of the ship and its own weight is going to start ripping sections out of the ship until it finds balance again.

Losing parts of the ship still seems less important than being able to move when they are in the middle of a fight. As long as the engines don't fall off, the steering is still connected and the deck can support people the loss of most parts is expensive but not life threatening.

I would also argue the ship most likely is designed with the idea that their might be holes in it and so have a much higher safety factor than usual as well as designing the deck to be able to support an upward force instead of a downward force (that is most likely to break from air pressure as the floor is designed to support weight). After all they are pirates. Getting holes in your ship must be something they have to worry about.

It should also be noted the weight doesn't have to be distributed evenly, it just has to be supported and pieces will only be lost until the forces are balanced again with the shear, moment, tensile, bending and compressive forces are under their maximums (and if the forces are never below the maximums the ship falls apart).

There is also the consideration of how close they were to the maximum weight when this happened. Say they weren't carrying very much cargo compared to what they could have carried. In that case the loss/damage of a few structural beams and a hole is much less likely to cause the entire ship to collapse as the ship is designed to be able to carry much more weight than it is currently carrying (assuming the ship is designed so a force pushing up on the main deck or outward on the hull doesn't cause the ship to break).

[TheNecrocomicon]

I think you may be confusing the Titanic with the Britannic. The Titanic's engines were put in full reverse as soon as the iceberg was sighted--in fact, that might be part of the reason the ship failed to steer out of the way in time, because the central propeller couldn't be reversed (being driven by a steam turbine) and so there was less water flow over the rudder to steer the ship. It came to a halt not long after the impact.

I know what you mean, but in the Titanic's case, the captain had the engines brought back to a moderate forward speed for several minutes before the effects of the iceberg hit became apparent. Then the crew stopped the engines for good. That whole sequence did not do the ship any favours.

[Riftwolf]

Am I right in thinking that;
1) taking a path you only just scraped through,
2) while you're losing altitude,
3) while in unknown and hostile terrain.

Andi has led them into a potential eel-trap?

[pendell]

Easily distracted, periods of hyper-concentration...You're a Spark?

Definition?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Quibblicious]

No Elan. Just. No.

The clouds are obviously coconut flavored. Everyone knows that.

Gross :smalltongue:

Q

[Quibblicious]

How can you miss the arrrr when this whole arc is full of pirates?

Well played...

Q

[sabremeister]

Damaged hull means increased drag, which means lower flight speed. Damaged hull also means you need to check whether all your control surfaces are still pointing in the right direction. Damaged control surfaces mean loss of responsiveness. Either of those last two in this crowded environment could mean, "that's a nice looking mountain, I wonder if it will be friends with me?" *CRASH*

Other things a damaged hull could lead to (other than what other people have already mentioned): You see those bits where the ropes holding the gas envelope to the hull are? Are they still securely mounted on the hull, or are they going to snap loose any second now?

Looking at the Mechane, she appears to have two main aft propellers for main thrust, and a single ventrally-mounted aft propeller, with a variable-angle mounting to allow it to provide both lift and thrust. She also appears to have two dorsal-mounted upper propellers that function mainly as lift engines. Given the weight and position of the engines themselves, the two dorsal-mounted props mostly serve to counter that weight and do little else, and the ventral prop would push the nose down. So keeping the engines running is fairly important, but not, I'd say, as important as being able to properly balance and control the various forces at work on the body of the airship (ie. thrust, drag, lift, gravity, shear, airflow over control surfaces) if bits have fallen off.

[sabremeister]

Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
Easily distracted, periods of hyper-concentration...You're a Spark?Definition?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php

[danielxcutter]

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php

Ah, the ninjas strike again.

[Quibblicious]

I've got to hand it to you, that was clever.

Give that man a hand!

Q

[FlawedParadigm]

I think the second-to-last panel would have been funnier if he'd stuck his tongue out like he's trying to taste a cloud. Maybe that's just me.

[Jay R]

As near as I can tell, many people in this thread have never been under orders on a ship, and don't realize that mutiny is one of the worst possible crimes on a ship underway. It combines violent attack, disobeying direct orders, rebellion against the social order, and usurping power by force - and also, of course, in this case, turning away from saving the world.


This kindof confuses me - assuming that everything continues to work out why would the Order care?

“[A]ssuming that everything continues to work out why would [somebody] care?" I can’t understand why anybody would apply this logic to any violent crime, any rebellion, or any usurpation . Guy Fawkes tried to blow up Parliament and the king, in order to seize power for Princess Elizabeth. The plot was discovered and prevented. Since everything worked out, why would England care? Because it was a violent assault, an attack on the social order, and an attempt to seize power, that’s why.

Many of the Order are Lawful Good. And their mission to save the entire world depends on continuing through the pass. Of course they will care about the crime of mutiny.

And why would everything be expected to work out? They have to get through the pass quickly in order to, you know, save the world.


Andi: Certain doom.

Nobody in the order believes that having encounters is "certain doom" - they're adventurers. And they all know that not completing their mission on time is certain doom.

[dancrilis]

“[A]ssuming that everything continues to work out why would [somebody] care?" I can’t understand why anybody would apply this logic to any violent crime, any rebellion, or any usurpation . Guy Fawkes tried to blow up Parliament and the king, in order to seize power for Princess Elizabeth. The plot was discovered and prevented. Since everything worked out, why would England care? Because it was a violent assault, an attack on the social order, and an attempt to seize power, that’s why.

But in your scenario it didn't work out.
If power had been seized for the princess (i.e the plan worked out) she may have been fine with it.


Many of the Order are Lawful Good. And their mission to save the entire world depends on continuing through the pass. Of course they will care about the crime of mutiny.
One of the (currently active) Order is Lawful Good, Three are Chaotic(two Good, one Evil).


Nobody in the order believes that having encounters is "certain doom" - they're adventurers. And they all know that not completing their mission on time is certain doom.
If the chief engineer (or really any member of the crew) believes that continuing would not have worked the Order are not really in a position to take sides - so providing they continue on the way to Firmament I don't see them caring.
But also if Bandana had continued against Andi's wishes and the next set of stones grounded the ship - would Roy have bisected Bandana, Vaarsuvius disintegrated her etc - I think not, even if they knew she was warned in advance and ignored it. The Order (with the exception of Belkar - and Vaarsuvius on a bad day) don't generally murder their way through non-hostile NPCs because it is more convienient (even Belkar has not really been doing that recently the Gnome who probably didn't have a name and the Oracle might have been the last two where he did that, and Vaarsuvius seems to be trying to not rely on violence first these day).

[SethoMarkus]

But in your scenario it didn't work out.
If power had been siezed for the princess (i.e the plan worked out) she may have been fine with it.


One of the (currently active) Order is Lawful Good, Three are Chaotic(two Good, one Evil).


If the chief engineer (or really any member of the crew) believes that continuing would not have worked the Order are not really in a position to take sides - so providing they continue on the way to Firmament I don't see them caring.
But also if Bandana had continued against Andi's wishes and the next set of stones grounded the ship - would Roy have bisected Bandana, Vaarsuvius disintegrated her etc - I think not, even if they knew she was warned in advance and ignored it. The Order (with the exception of Belkar - and Vaarsuvius on a bad day) don't generally murder their way through non-hostile NPCs because it is more convienient (even Belkar has not really been doing that recently the Gnome who probably didn't have a name and the Oracle might have been the last two where he did that, and Vaarsuvius seems to be trying to not rely on violence first these day).

Thr only way this could "work out" is if the Mechane had continued straight through thr mountain pass. Anything that slows that down or delays their journey to Firmament is moving further and further away from "working out".

I believe Roy will be pissed. Perhaps not enough to outright kill Andi, you are right in saying that isn't his style, but enough to part ways.

"Stopping and coming up with a less suicidal plan" isn't exactly something Roy believes they have time for, which is why they attempted the pass in the first place.

[Shining Wrath]

I'll take one of those!

Oh... wait... you said wrench. I didn't see that 'r'....

Q

Precisely why would you want a wench to the head? Ponders Oh ....


Mutineer Andromeda.
A legend in her own mind.

I'll hazard a guess that the spare hand (panel 5) belongs to Felix.

I'm going to put in a guess that there's a person hidden by the speech balloon, the top of whose head is just above it; probably the gal in the blue bandana with polka dots.


On the plus side, no giants in this here box canyon.

On the minus side, we're about to find out WHY there are no giants in this here box canyon.

The giants are all obeying the summons of their god to destroy the Mechane by blocking the only possible path through the mountains. If there are other monsters that usually avoid the giants, they may have come out to play.


Hey, the Titanic did not sink because it ran into an iceberg. No, it was floating just fine.

It sank because, eager to actually arrive on time, the captain decided to resume sail before making sure the ship was repaired.

... wait a sec ...

No, the Titanic was equipped with watertight bulkheads, but they didn't go far enough up; the designers didn't design for multiple compartments being breached and as the 5 or 6 breached compartments filled with water, it dragged the ship down enough to overtop the bulkheads.


Maybe it isn't dramatically the most appropriate moment.

Exactly! Elan cannot take command until it is obvious that only he can take command.


Bard camp had far fewer half-elves in attendance than I expected. ...although, we can only see one of their ears, each.

The airship is slowing down and it is getting lower, which will make it easier to catch up with.

Elan has been airsick (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0950.html) far less than Blackwing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html), so there's that.

Blackwing's airsickness is a running joke - but still, saying you have higher Constitution than a raven familiar is not saying much. Familiars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars)don't get a Constitution increase, so Blackwing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/raven.htm)'s CON is 10.


Andi continues to survive with help from Dumb Luck checks. It's barely a middling successful tactic short-term; forget long-term.



Easily distracted, periods of hyper-concentration...You're a Spark?

I can easily see Pendrell as a Spark.


Isn't it the entire basis of many stories - a series of unlikely (and dangerous) events occur and eventually everything works out.



I kindof hope her luck never runs out.


This kindof confuses me - assuming that everything continues to work out why would the Order care?

Roy: Why aren't we on the pass?
Andi: Certain doom.
Belkar: Why is that one whose name I never bothered learning tied up?
Andi: Certain doom.
Belkar: Oh want her dead?
Andi: ... no.
Elan: But we are still going to Firmament? It is super important.
Andi: Sure - once we can make the trip without certain doom for all on board. Might discuss with the crew and than Roy about changing payment to cover some raise deads for our crewmates.
Roy: Hmm ... yea they are only dead to help us I suppose.
Elan: Hurray.
Belkar: Meh.
Andi: Still have pleanty of healing potions for any who need them.

Vaarsuvius might well have an 'I defer to your greater expertise with airships' approach.

The only one that might seem to object is Haley - and even than certain doom is likely a reasonable reason to take action from her prespective.

If things don't continue to work out than it would likely depend on how they do not for how the order will react but assuming that the Order's reaction will be violant death for Andi and any who support her seems unsupported by the text of the comic to date.

Roy gave explicit advice to Bandana to risk the ship (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1051.html) in order to stay on the mission. And absolutely nothing happened to change his mind, or Bandana's. Andi has, in the opinion of the acting captain and the leader of the adventuring party, made a grotesque error. I suspect we're within a few strips of seeing what harvest comes from sowing arrogance and panic.

[sabremeister]

A Guy Fawkes tried to blow up Parliament and the king, in order to seize power for Princess Elizabeth. The plot was discovered and prevented. Since everything worked out, why would England care? Because it was a violent assault, an attack on the social order, and an attempt to seize power, that’s why.

In case anyone wants to point out that the Gunpowder Plot was in 1605, two years after Queen Elizabeth's death: In 1605, King James I of England and VI of Scotland was on the united English & Scottish thrones. His daughter, a princess, was called Elizabeth.

[nocoolnamejim]

Odd definition of the phrase "things keep working out" being applied here.

Leaving three different members of the Order of the Stick behind in a freezing wasteland while they were risking their lives to protect those of you and your friends and they have no idea where you've gone isn't working out. I'm guessing that Belkar in particular isn't going to be thrilled at having to trudge through miles of high snow searching for his ride because Andi panicked in battle.

Causing Elan's mending spell to fizzle not once, but twice, is not working out.

Getting a glancing blow from a mountain to an already damaged ship instead of a direct hit isn't working out.

Being absolutely lost in a damaged ship with no idea when the NEXT sudden mountain will spring up in front of you isn't working out.

Not knowing what other monsters might be around the very next bend is not having things work out either.

Moreover, while Roy is the only Lawful Good guy in the group currently with Durkon gone, he's definitely not going to be the only one who is going to have an objection.

1. Hayley: You absolutely screwed my friend and little protege that I've bonded with AND put my boyfriend in significant risk in the process.
2. Elan: You left Hayley behind in hostile territory with no way of knowing where we are and how to get back to the ship.
3. Belkar: Do you have any idea how COLD it was trudging through miles and miles of snow that goes up to my head? Or, alternatively, you cost me a bunch of money by making me ask for that flight spell from Hayley after all.
4. Vaarsuvius: You made a panicky, short sighted decision that may very well have put us significantly behind schedule in our attempts to save the entire world. Illogical, inefficient and counter productive.

Essentially, just because the ship hasn't utterly crashed with all hands onboard does not mean things are currently "working out" from the perspective of anyone who isn't "Awesome" Andi.

[Snails]

But it is such an essential and important question! You do not need to concentrate on it, it is always there at the back of your mind ready to pop out at the most inconvenient moments...

Definitely. When else is he ever going to get a good taste of cloud?

Which makes me wonder, would Elan remember that there was a Concenwhatever lesson at bard camp if not for the clouds to remind him?

[TheNecrocomicon]

No, the Titanic was equipped with watertight bulkheads, but they didn't go far enough up; the designers didn't design for multiple compartments being breached and as the 5 or 6 breached compartments filled with water, it dragged the ship down enough to overtop the bulkheads.

His comment was actually pretty accurate; the captain thought that it was a minor hit and that the Titanic could continue on just fine, and so the ship did actually resume travelling for several minutes. That was until the crew reported back just how serious the damage was (i.e. five breached compartments and part of a sixth) and the engines/screws were stopped for good, leaving the ship adrift in the local oceanic current. The additional pressure around the bow from the forward motion increased the pressure on the breached areas, forcing water in at a greater rate and somewhat accelerating the ship's sinking.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Dangit, Past-Elan, stop getting in the way of Present-Elan's adventures!
...
Can you actually hear me, Past-Elan? If so, do you want me to tell you some spoilers?

[Shining Wrath]

Odd definition of the phrase "things keep working out" being applied here.

Leaving three different members of the Order of the Stick behind in a freezing wasteland while they were risking their lives to protect those of you and your friends and they have no idea where you've gone isn't working out. I'm guessing that Belkar in particular isn't going to be thrilled at having to trudge through miles of high snow searching for his ride because Andi panicked in battle.

Causing Elan's mending spell to fizzle not once, but twice, is not working out.

Getting a glancing blow from a mountain to an already damaged ship instead of a direct hit isn't working out.

Being absolutely lost in a damaged ship with no idea when the NEXT sudden mountain will spring up in front of you isn't working out.

Not knowing what other monsters might be around the very next bend is not having things work out either.

Moreover, while Roy is the only Lawful Good guy in the group currently with Durkon gone, he's definitely not going to be the only one who is going to have an objection.

1. Hayley: You absolutely screwed my friend and little protege that I've bonded with AND put my boyfriend in significant risk in the process.
2. Elan: You left Hayley behind in hostile territory with no way of knowing where we are and how to get back to the ship.
3. Belkar: Do you have any idea how COLD it was trudging through miles and miles of snow that goes up to my head? Or, alternatively, you cost me a bunch of money by making me ask for that flight spell from Hayley after all.
4. Vaarsuvius: You made a panicky, short sighted decision that may very well have put us significantly behind schedule in our attempts to save the entire world. Illogical, inefficient and counter productive.

Essentially, just because the ship hasn't utterly crashed with all hands onboard does not mean things are currently "working out" from the perspective of anyone who isn't "Awesome" Andi.

Yes to all the above, and remember, these mountains have been mapped, and there is one known path through them in this area, which the Mechane was following. It is almost certain that the Mechane will have to retrace its path (if it doesn't crash) and fight more giants than it would have otherwise. Even if you view the giants as the only problem faced by the Mechane, Andi is completely wrong, and ought to know it.

[Kantaki]

Ah, the ninjas strike again.

Smoke Knights.
You mean Smoke Knights.:smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm going to put in a guess that there's a person hidden by the speech balloon, the top of whose head is just above it; probably the gal in the blue bandana with polka dots.
Carol, the half elf.

This brings to mind an old Chuck Berry Song.
Oh Carol
Don't let him steal your hand away ...

[Seeen]

I can't help but wonder if that impact was enough to get Roy's attention, at the least. He thinks the boulder barrage has stopped, after all, so even if the impact doesn't somehow sound like it's worse than a boulder hit, there's a reason for it to get his attention.

In addition, I'd imagine that in his current position, the ship being grazed by a mountain is a very visible thing.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that Roy has skill ranks in Architecture & Engineering, not just "Architecture" as it has since been employed for the most part. I imagine that, if he noticed the ship got grazed, he'd be in a good position to draw many of the same conclusions stated in this thread, such as air drag from a damaged hull. (Frankly, even just decent understanding of physics is probably enough.)

[pendell]

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php

Ah. (http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Spark). Yeah, pretty much.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Snails]

It sustained enough damage to the forward five to six compartments to sink it regardless. The difference is that it could have taken longer to sink if it hadn't been driven forwards, forcing yet more water into the irreparably holed compartments. And that, in turn, could have given the opportunity to save a lot more lives -- that, and if the captain and crew of the Californian hadn't crit-failed their own Spot check.

Correct. 706 people made it into lifeboats, when the nominal capacity was 1178. While it is not reasonable to assume the full capacity would be properly utilized under emergency conditions, even a few more minutes could have easily have saved many lives.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ooooh, can I ask what's your current plan for making the natural laws curl up and weep?

Can I volunteer a few people as test subjects for your next grand scheme to take over the world?

How many of the Playgrounders are your secret minions?

Do we get decoder rings if we sign on as secret minions?

[Blatt]

What is wrong with: land, kill giants on board, do repairs, wait for OOTS to clear out the other giants and make the pass passable?

Oh, and Andi is now definitely riding for a fall. Leaders need to know the difference between luck and being awesome.

[Snails]

My Bardic Knowledge check on the metaplot is tingling. Failing to learn dares lethal retribution from one of the sub-themes: "Evolve or die."

The Giant has been systematically executing minor characters who refuse to learn and grow when the opportunity arises, as a means to escalate the dramatic stakes towards the final battle to save the world. A few minor lucky successes for this mutiny makes the demise of the entire crew of the Mechane more plausible, not less. I am not so much making a predication, as pointing out that there is sufficient pipe laid out to support a sudden massacre.

Possible scenario: Andi leads the Mechane into a dead end. The army of giants regroups and closes in. Roy sees the battle is completely hopeless with the Order split, just grabs the still unconscious Bandanna and chucks her over his shoulder, and runs for it with Elan -- he guesses that the rather competent captain being tied up explains enough about why the ship was steered to its doom, so Bandanna is the most worthy of being saved when there is no time to ask questions. The giants as a group have ambiguous orders putting the stopping of the airship as the priority (because Hel very reasonably assumes it would be a "one in a million" :smallwink: chance of the Order getting to the dwarven kings in time without the airship), so Roy and Elan get a big head start.

[Keltest]

What is wrong with: land, kill giants on board, do repairs, wait for OOTS to clear out the other giants and make the pass passable?

Oh, and Andi is now definitely riding for a fall. Leaders need to know the difference between luck and being awesome.

besides the lack of a dry dock, lack of materials to repair with, and the ambiguity of whether or not the Order can actually kill the giants in the pass before they finish off the Mechane while its sitting stationary?

[Jasdoif]

What is wrong with: land, kill giants on board, do repairs, wait for OOTS to clear out the other giants and make the pass passable?Landing makes it easier for giants to hit the Mechane with rocks...and with the number of giants, and with giants being giant, there simply aren't enough members in the Order of the Stick to keep very many of them locked down.

And if the Mechane is damaged to the point that it can't take off again in those conditions, it's probably a lost cause....

[dancrilis]

Thr only way this could "work out" is if the Mechane had continued straight through thr mountain pass. Anything that slows that down or delays their journey to Firmament is moving further and further away from "working out".
The ship getting destroyed would (likely) delays their journey, and might kill Elan or even Roy (as well as the crew).


I believe Roy will be pissed. Perhaps not enough to outright kill Andi, you are right in saying that isn't his style, but enough to part ways.

That is fair enough if things go wrong or it they don't intend to go to Firmament, they don't really need the airship.



"Stopping and coming up with a less suicidal plan" isn't exactly something Roy believes they have time for, which is why they attempted the pass in the first place.
Fair point but there is a difference between between - 'we can do this' at the beginning of the attack and 'we can do this' half way through the attack, if circumstances change so should the acceptability of the plan - and who was right on whether circumstances had changed we don't know (and likely never will).

On speed stopping and repairing some of the ship (which might not be possible in combat as one cannot take 20) might work out fine and actually increase the speed more than the two minute delay.

It wouldn't suprise me if the rest of the trip goes like this:
Andi fixes stuff, Bandana wakes up pissed but noting the state of the ship grudgingly congratulates Andi on keeping the ship together and getting it into shape for the rest of the journey - while making it clear that she should have shown respect and articulated herself better on the nature of the situation, they argue, Bandana resumes command with the crews backing, the journey is completed - and at Firmament Andi is suspended from the crew as punishment for mutinous behaviour pending Julio's return.
All occuring without the Order ever really noticing anything of the crews little drama.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Correct. 706 people made it into lifeboats, when the nominal capacity was 1178. While it is not reasonable to assume the full capacity would be properly utilized under emergency conditions, even a few more minutes could have easily have saved many lives.

Half the problem was that a lot of the early lifeboats were launched way under passenger capacity, partly because of the "women and children first" procedure and partly because few of the passengers initially believed that the ship was in any trouble at all. As the sinking proceeded, the later lifeboats were launched full or even over-capacity and they had to redistribute survivors between boats when they were gathered together waiting for the Carpathia.

I don't know if it would have been possible, given enough caution after the collision, for the Titanic to have stayed afloat long enough to close the gap between when it actually sank at 2:20am local time and when the Carpathia arrived on the scene at 4:10am. At the very least, a shorter interval there would have resulted in fewer people in the lifeboats dying of the elements (and there were some, especially in/on the collapsible boats).

[Shining Wrath]

Ooooh, can I ask what's your current plan for making the natural laws curl up and weep?

Can I volunteer a few people as test subjects for your next grand scheme to take over the world?

How many of the Playgrounders are your secret minions?

Do we get decoder rings if we sign on as secret minions?

IF YOU ARE PART OF THE MASTER PLAN YOU KNOW YOUR PART.

Seriously, have you never connived before?

[keybounce]

There was a well-researched documentary on the Titanic recently. While I might be off by one compartment count, the basic idea was this: The first 2 compartments were completely flooded. The third was taking on water. If the water overflowed the 3rd into the 4th, then the ship would sink, no question. The question was whether or not the people in the third compartment could drain it.

If they could drain it, and keep it dry, then it would be possible to repair the ship enough to start draining the second compartment. (The first was a total loss). Worst case, it could just float as long as needed for rescue ships.

And yes, the ship was in this bad shape because after it hit the iceberg, which did damage, but not enough to sink it, the ship resumed sail -- and that caused the extra water and hull damage.

Additionally, the engine crew *DID* manage to get that compartment dry. Despite everything else -- the extra water from sailing damaged, etc., the ship was in "saved" state.

Except *then*, the hull gave out, and the sea water came directly into that compartment. Once that happened, there was no way to prevent the water from going over the wall into the next compartment, and the ship was going to sink no matter what.

At least one of the crew from that compartment managed to make it out of the ship to the rescue boats, and testified during the investigation. That's how the details of what happened were known and preserved. Additionally, once the wreckage of the ship was found, the rivets could be examined -- hence, the lawsuit claiming that the rivets used were substandard, and that if proper rivets were used, that compartment would not have flooded, and the ship would have been saved. (NB: I do not know the results of that lawsuit).

So who is to blame for the sinking?
a: bad rivets (would not have been enough if the ship had not sailed while damaged)
b: Bad decision to resume sail instead of making sure the ship was undamaged (might have worked if the rivets were good enough)
c: something else?

[nocoolnamejim]

It wouldn't suprise me if the rest of the trip goes like this:
Andi fixes stuff, Bandana wakes up pissed but noting the state of the ship grudgingly congratulates Andi on keeping the ship together and getting it into shape for the rest of the journey - while making it clear that she should have shown respect and articulated herself better on the nature of the situation, they argue, Bandana resumes command with the crews backing, the journey is completed - and at Firmament Andi is suspended from the crew as punishment for mutinous behaviour pending Julio's return.
All occuring without the Order ever really noticing anything of the crews little drama.

I would be absolutely gobsmacked if this is how it plays out.

[F.Harr]

Even when he's useful, Elan is still Elan.

ANDI! This does not mean you're doing well!

[SethoMarkus]

The ship getting destroyed would (likely) delays their journey, and might kill Elan or even Roy (as well as the crew).

But if risking the ship being destroyed is the only way to make it through in time... This is the ultimate gamble, "if we make it through in one attempt, we have a chance at saving the world; if we stop or turn back, all is lost".



That is fair enough if things go wrong or it they don't intend to go to Firmament, they don't really need the airship.

They do need the airship, or at least believe they do. And they need the airship to continue with the agreed upon plan. That is why it is such a big deal.



Fair point but there is a difference between between - 'we can do this' at the beginning of the attack and 'we can do this' half way through the attack, if circumstances change so should the acceptability of the plan - and who was right on whether circumstances had changed we don't know (and likely never will).


I agree with that distinction, but I disagree that there is always an opportunity to change the plan once it is in action, even if new information would have changed that original plan in hindsight.

If you face "dangerous odds" when you form the plan, and actually face "almost certain death" executing the plan, but male it half-way, and are left with "almost certain death" continuing with the plan as well as "almost certain death, and certain failure" for turning back to regroup, you are better off going forward with the orignal plan rather than attempting to come up with a new plan in the heat of a crisis.



On speed stopping and repairing some of the ship (which might not be possible in combat as one cannot take 20) might work out fine and actually increase the speed more than the two minute delay.

That is the same "here's hoping" justification used for going forward, except it works against the time constraints as well.

What if they land and are unable to take off once more? What if they are unable to repair the ship? What if the giants pursue them while they are grounded? What if additonal threats surface? What if they lose more altitude after passing a mountain peak and are now trapped with mountains too high to pass on all sides?

I understand the viewpoint that if they are able to repair the ship they will be better off, but I disagree that it is a feasible option at this point. Addionally, I don't think that is Andi's plan in the first place. She simply tool a damaged ship from a known path with known dangers into an unknown path with unknown dangers. I do not consider that an improvement on any front.



It wouldn't suprise me if the rest of the trip goes like this:
Andi fixes stuff, Bandana wakes up pissed but noting the state of the ship grudgingly congratulates Andi on keeping the ship together and getting it into shape for the rest of the journey - while making it clear that she should have shown respect and articulated herself better on the nature of the situation, they argue, Bandana resumes command with the crews backing, the journey is completed - and at Firmament Andi is suspended from the crew as punishment for mutinous behaviour pending Julio's return.
All occuring without the Order ever really noticing anything of the crews little drama.

I would be so surprised if that is the turn of events that the comic takes that I would question if it was April 1st.

[Quibblicious]

Carol, the half elf.

This brings to mind an old Chuck Berry Song.
Oh Carol
Don't let him steal your hand away ...

See? Bards know things.

Q

[Snails]

So who is to blame for the sinking?
a: bad rivets (would not have been enough if the ship had not sailed while damaged)
b: Bad decision to resume sail instead of making sure the ship was undamaged (might have worked if the rivets were good enough)
c: something else?

I think the bad rivet theory makes a lot of sense, as rivets are a great technology up until the point one fails. Then, under certain kinds of stress, an adjacent rivet is put under even greater strain, and so on down the line. An "unzipping" of a section of rivets is highly consistent with the reported sight of a wall of water coming off the hull.

Furthermore, I read an interesting article where they delved back into records during the construction. Apparently, there was a dire shortage of good quality rivets that threatened to knock construction off schedule. The situation was so bad that the board of directors of the ship construction company was receiving daily status reports on the ongoing rivet situation.

As you probably know, but many other readers may not, metallurgy was less advanced back then. A rivet that would test as good enough in a lab could be too brittle when down at 32 degrees F. It would have only taken one unlucky mediocre batch of rivets to be in that section, for the hull to be much weaker than expected.

As for the fate of the Titanic, I strongly believe that the ship was surely lost with two compartments flooded. Can you actually imagine that they could have slowly and gently hauled it back to harbor before something else critical failed? However, it is plausible that other decisions could have saved many more or perhaps even all of the passengers.

[runeghost]

I'm starting to think that the Mechane and crew are going to be on the receiving end of an awful decision Roy and the OotS are going to have to make:

They need to get to Firmament, literally try to save the world, and everyone in it. The mostly helpful airship crew who got themselves stranded in (very) inhospitable wilderness because they mutinied? Yeah, they're on their own. The Order will send help later, if the universe hasn't been destroyed.

Either that, or Julio arrives on his carpet in the nick of time to save the day and admonish crew.

[Quibblicious]

I think the bad rivet theory makes a lot of sense, as rivets are a great technology up until the point one fails. Then, under certain kinds of stress, an adjacent rivet is put under even greater strain, and so on down the line. An "unzipping" of a section of rivets is highly consistent with the reported sight of a wall of water coming off the hull.

Furthermore, I read an interesting article where they delved back into records during the construction. Apparently, there was a dire shortage of good quality rivets that threatened to knock construction off schedule. The situation was so bad that the board of directors of the ship construction company was receiving daily status reports on the ongoing rivet situation.

As you probably know, but many other readers may not, metallurgy was less advanced back then. A rivet that would test as good enough in a lab could be too brittle when down at 32 degrees F. It would have only taken one unlucky mediocre batch of rivets to be in that section, for the hull to be much weaker than expected.

As for the fate of the Titanic, I strongly believe that the ship was surely lost with two compartments flooded. Can you actually imagine that they could have slowly and gently hauled it back to harbor before something else critical failed? However, it is plausible that other decisions could have saved many more or perhaps even all of the passengers.

IIRC, there was also an issue with the actual iron/steel plates the ship was made from -- excess sulfur content made them brittle and the cold waters added to that effect, so that the plated cracked instead of bending.

Q

[Shining Wrath]

I think the bad rivet theory makes a lot of sense, as rivets are a great technology up until the point one fails. Then, under certain kinds of stress, an adjacent rivet is put under even greater strain, and so on down the line. An "unzipping" of a section of rivets is highly consistent with the reported sight of a wall of water coming off the hull.

Furthermore, I read an interesting article where they delved back into records during the construction. Apparently, there was a dire shortage of good quality rivets that threatened to knock construction off schedule. The situation was so bad that the board of directors of the ship construction company was receiving daily status reports on the ongoing rivet situation.

As you probably know, but many other readers may not, metallurgy was less advanced back then. A rivet that would test as good enough in a lab could be too brittle when down at 32 degrees F. It would have only taken one unlucky mediocre batch of rivets to be in that section, for the hull to be much weaker than expected.

As for the fate of the Titanic, I strongly believe that the ship was surely lost with two compartments flooded. Can you actually imagine that they could have slowly and gently hauled it back to harbor before something else critical failed? However, it is plausible that other decisions could have saved many more or perhaps even all of the passengers.

The NIST (http://www.materialstoday.com/metals-alloys/news/what-really-sank-the-titanic/)supports the rivets theory. It's not definitive, but it looks like steel rivets or triple rivets rather than double, either one, might have saved the ship.

[sabremeister]

Originally Posted by SethoMarkus
I believe Roy will be pissed. Perhaps not enough to outright kill Andi, you are right in saying that isn't his style, but enough to part ways.
That is fair enough if things go wrong or it they don't intend to go to Firmament, they don't really need the airship.

But they do need to go to Firmament, and quickly, for which they need the airship. An airship that has been damaged badly but has kept on flying past an ambush and is still making reasonable speed is better than an airship that is only mildly damaged but has slowed to a crawl to navigate an unmapped route through mountains that might not get them where they want to go.



"Stopping and coming up with a less suicidal plan" isn't exactly something Roy believes they have time for, which is why they attempted the pass in the first place.
Fair point but there is a difference between between - 'we can do this' at the beginning of the attack and 'we can do this' half way through the attack, if circumstances change so should the acceptability of the plan - and who was right on whether circumstances had changed we don't know (and likely never will).

Pretty much every successful military tactician says you should stick to your plan. A good plan will be able to be adapted to the needs of the exact situation, to take into account enemy action/errors in execution, etc. If circumstances change, the plan should be able to change with it.

As far as what we've seen tells us, the situation has not changed, and did not change until Andi committed mutiny. There was no sudden appearance of hundreds of more giants to throw rocks, there was no sign of a flying enemy of whatever sort, Haley, V and Belkar were clearing the giants from the Mechane's path with little trouble, Roy was dealing with the giants on deck, Felix dealt with the giant handing off the stern, and Elan was just about to fix the hole in the gas envelope - until Andi committed mutiny.
That was when the situation changed - not because of an external factor, but because Andi committed mutiny. Regardless of her motivations, she believed the captain's plan was not working and believed her own plan was the only viable option, despite being given good logical reasons why it wasn't (mistake #1). She then did something to enable the plan to be changed, intentionally or accidentally/impulsively makes no difference when you commit mutiny (mistake #2). Then she ordered the plan to be changed (mistake #3). She then wasted time trying to justify her actions to the crew instead of giving orders to secure their new situation (mistake #4), dithered when she got around to giving those orders (mistake #5), and tried to pass off luck and the helmsman's skill as her own competence (mistake #6). What she achieved was to separate the Mechane from the group that was most effective at preventing damage to it (mistake #7), to cause further damage to the ship (which is something she wanted to prevent) (mistake #8), to get them lost (they are off the mapped path with no idea of where to go) (mistake #9), and to potentially strand them somewhere where they cannot physically get out of due to their damage (mistake #10), or at least where the only way out is to go through the gauntlet of rock-throwing frost giants again.


On speed stopping and repairing some of the ship (which might not be possible in combat as one cannot take 20) might work out fine and actually increase the speed more than the two minute delay.


Let's say that Passage Pass is 10km long, and that the Mechane was at the halfway point when Andi committed mutiny. Let's also say that the Mechane was averaging 40 km/h (noticeably faster than the 33 km/h that 30 ft/s works out to that Elan gave as how he would pay for a Diet Coke in Cliffport). As the Mechane had recently been ordered to accelerate to 2/3rds full speed, the average will be lower than 2/3rds full, so let's call that 50 km/h, which gives us a full speed of 75 km/h (all of which were well within the range of early-mid 20th century airships). The pass is not straight, so they cannot simply go to full speed, they need to go slow enough that their control surfaces can give them a decently sharp turn radius.
speed = distance / time therefore time = distance / speed
The distance they need to travel to clear the pass is 5km. Let's say that Firmament is another 50km of straight-line flying once they leave the pass. Assuming that Bandana kept the Mechane at 2/3rds full all the way to Firmament, they would take
55/50=1.1
1 hour six minutes to get to the Dwarven city, only six minutes of which would be spent under bombardment from giants.

Let's say that Andi manages to find somewhere to park the Mechane about 1km from where they left the pass. Nothing stops on a dime, least of all an airship. Let's give it a deceleration of 3 km/h/s, and an acceleration of 5 km/h/s.
Initial speed = 50 km/h
Deceleration = 3 km/h/s
Final speed = 0 km/h
Time to decelerate to rest = (initial - final)/deceleration = 16.667s
Distance needed to decelerate = (initial x time) + (½(deceleration x time))^2 = 347m
Distance from leaving pass to point where need to decelerate = 653m
0.653/50=0.01306 hrs or 47.016 sec
Total time needed to leave the pass, find a place to park, and come to a halt is 63.68266667 sec
Add two minutes to repair what damage they can (which will be negligible in only two minutes - it will probably take them half that time to fetch the supplies).
Let's assume that the quickest way to turn the Mechane is at very low speed with full rudder and one of the main propellers reversing, and even then would probably take 20 seconds to do a 180 degree turn. Let's also assume that no one has got into a position to attack them while they do their quick repairs and turn around.
Time elapsed 200.68266667 seconds
Let's assume that the Mechane's best turn rate at speed is at half-full, so it would be reasonable for Andi to order half-full speed until they got to the turn onto the pass, then to accelerate to a higher speed.
Initial speed = 0 km/h
Final speed = 37.5 km/h
Acceleration = 5 km/h/s
Time to accelerate to half-full = (initial - final)/acceleration = 7.5 secs
Distance covered = (initial x time) + (½(acceleration x time))^2 = 39m
Time to get back to the pass = (1 - 0.039)/37.5 = 0.0256266667 hrs or 92.256 secs.
Total time elapsed is now 300.43866667 seconds, or a fraction over 5 minutes.
Assuming that this manoeuvre gets them back to the same point at which they first started the manoeuvre to turn off the pass, that leaves them 55km from Firmament. They have 61 minutes to get there if they are to be quicker than Bandana's plan would have got them there.
Let's assume that 2/3rds full is the absolute safest top speed with which to traverse Passage Pass.
Initial speed = 37.5 km/h
Final speed = 50 km/h
Accleleration = 5 km/h/s
Time to accelerate from half-full to 2/3rds full = (final - initial)/acceleration = 2.5 secs
Distance covered = (initial x time) + (½(acceleration x time))^2 = 30.4m
Distance left within Passage Pass = 4969.6m
Time to traverse this = 4.9696 / 50 = 357.8 secs or 5.96 mins
Total time elapsed so far is 658.238667 seconds, or 10.97 minutes. There are 55.03 minutes left on the clock.
In order to get to Firmament no later than when the straight course would have reached there, the Mechane would, once out of the pass, have to instantly accelerate to 54.5 km/h. However, the ship would have been taking damage from the giants as they turned back into the pass, and all through the pass. V Haley and Belkar would have got a very long way ahead and would not be in a very good position to protect the ship, so there would be more giants throwing rocks than if they had made a straight run. The giants at the point where the ship left the pass would have extra time to attack as the Mechane made the turn and accelerated to 2/3rds full. Any giants that moved into the spur valley that the Mechane had flown down would also have the opportunity to attack as it passed them on the way out.

Bottom line: With a great deal of ideal circumstances being permitted, if the Mechane turns off the pass, stops to make a quick repair, then returns to the pass to head to Firmament, it can do so in the same time as straight run down the pass, but it WILL take more damage, with a consequent chance of more crewmembers being injured or dying.


It wouldn't suprise me if the rest of the trip goes like this:
Andi fixes stuff, Bandana wakes up pissed but noting the state of the ship grudgingly congratulates Andi on keeping the ship together and getting it into shape for the rest of the journey - while making it clear that she should have shown respect and articulated herself better on the nature of the situation, they argue, Bandana resumes command with the crews backing, the journey is completed - and at Firmament Andi is suspended from the crew as punishment for mutinous behaviour pending Julio's return.
All occuring without the Order ever really noticing anything of the crews little drama.

You're living in Cloud Cuckooland if you think that. They're going to get lost and massively delayed, and it will only be V and Blackwing realising something is amiss and coming to find them and lead them back to the pass that will save them. Roy and Elan will be on Andi's back all the time until Bandana wakes up, and their presence will hasten Andi's loss of command (possibly with another incident of jealous rage). Bandana is not going to congratulate Andi at all, and will probably ask Belkar to escort her round the ship while she makes what repairs she can in-flight (Belkar will happily do so for the chance to stab someone on what Roy would consider a valid pretext ie. Andi tried to mutiny again). Bandana congratulates the Order for protecting the ship and thanks them for their work, and thanks the crew for keeping level heads through the crisis. The crew re-affirm Bandana as captain, but demand more money. Bandana realises that the crew's goodwill will not last to get the Order to the North Pole, so they part company at Firmament, where Andi is also put off the ship permanently.

[darkelement]

Although it is increasingly clear that Andi is being established as a heel at this point, comparing her to Miko... well, I have two minds about that. It manages to be simultaneously unfair to both Andi and Miko, if that's possible. To Andi because she hasn't done anything nearly as unreasonable as Miko yet (in my opinion, Andi's decision to mutiny was defensible on its own merits due to Bandana's lack of loyalty to her shipmates and all-round mendacity, even if it is now clear that Andi acted for the wrong reasons)... and to Miko because she's implicitly being made out as some kind of a gold standard for bad guys in the comic without apportioning any of the blame to the staggeringly corrupt society she grew up in and was reacting against.

I feel the point needs to be made that tearing one character down and making them look like a heel (Andi) does not automatically make her rival (Bandana) look better by comparison. Bandana had turned into an Order of the Stick fangirl (of the actual in-universe party, that is) and prioritized helping the flashy adventurers on their big important quest over the loyalty (and, eventually, the lives) of her crew.

I'm not saying that this was a morally wrong decision, or that she necessarily could have avoided any problems by adjusting her leadership style. But it was a choice with consequences, and my main criticism of Bandana is that she really should have seen it coming. In this conception, the mistake Bandana made was less in chewing Andi out in front of everybody, and more that she insulted Andi and then turned her back on her, like she expected that her brash, cocky charisma was just so great that of course Andi would be all like "daaaaaamn, I just got served!"

Lastly I just want to point out that in 3.5 rules, nonlethal damage can be healed like any other hit points. A long, long-past comic established they have "crates" of healing potions (comic #937). If Bandana could count on the loyalty of the crew, then Andi would already have been restrained and she would have already had a potion shoved in her face. You can say it's because they are bad people or not, but the lack of a unified, loyal crew under Bandana is pretty much beyond dispute.

...

A caveat to all this: Since they are the main characters this ultimately all comes back to the OotS themselves, who have generally been objectifying and standoffish in their interactions with the entire crew and are generally just treating them as generic NPCs there to facilitate their own personal quests. They clearly haven't learned the lesson that that poor dead Azure wizard who got eaten by the giant bird should have taught them. To Bandana's credit, she did actually confront the PCs about their lack of care for the airship and crew once, in the middle of the storm. Elan and Haley got the message;Vaarsuvius (comic 950) and oy and Belkar (#951) didn't, and just treated the peril as an inconvenient encounter to be dealt with as fast as possible before going back to pondering their main quest. The reason I am invested in this not just being a story about this one airship engineer being a bitch is because I think it brings up some subtle insights into the personalities of some of the main characters and helps highlight the flaws that make them so interesting and three-dimensional. And not only that, but the airship arc highlights those personality traits through a very familiar DnD dynamic, marginalizing NPCs because of their perceived lack of importance.

I kind of like Andi because she is the NPC who takes issue with that dynamic and lashes out against it, just to knock the player characters out of their comfort zone. She may not be a good person but Andi is the hero of her own personal quest, and the objective of that is "stay alive and live the life of an airship pirate", not "die heroically while helping push the heroes across the finish line so they can complete their world-saving quest and become a footnote in their legend". Again, I stress that Elan and Haley have been exemplary in their "role playing", if we can call it that, with the airship crew. It's the other three (living) members who have failed to engage.

What if Vaarsuvius had been finding creative ways to use hir spells to help the airship's operation on a daily basis? What if Roy had been using all those knowledge skills he's so proud of, or just his crazy strength, to pitch in with the crew routinely (he has Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering! I can't believe he's never thought to use it in this entire arc. Just sits around like a chump until the proverbial DM groans, rolls his eyes, and drops some elite frost giants directly on the deck so Roy will finally do something besides tell the other PCs what to do on their turns)? What if Belkar had been cooking gourmet meals with HIS skill that he's so proud of? Maybe the crew would have more loyalty to Bandana, who has gone to the mat for the Order's sake, now that they have to pick a side.

[Shining Wrath]

... SNIP ...

They're going to get lost and massively delayed, and it will only be V and Blackwing realising something is amiss and coming to find them and lead them back to the pass that will save them. Roy and Elan will be on Andi's back all the time until Bandana wakes up, and their presence will hasten Andi's loss of command (possibly with another incident of jealous rage). Bandana is not going to congratulate Andi at all, and will probably ask Belkar to escort her round the ship while she makes what repairs she can in-flight (Belkar will happily do so for the chance to stab someone on what Roy would consider a valid pretext ie. Andi tried to mutiny again). Bandana congratulates the Order for protecting the ship and thanks them for their work, and thanks the crew for keeping level heads through the crisis. The crew re-affirm Bandana as captain, but demand more money. Bandana realises that the crew's goodwill will not last to get the Order to the North Pole, so they part company at Firmament, where Andi is also put off the ship permanently.

Thought, possibly new: Roy will get very angry and yell insults at Andi, Andi will attack Roy when his back is turned dealing with some emergency, and that's when Andi learns about Fighters having more hit points than Rogues.

[Sir_Norbert]

For me, the biggest reason why things cannot possibly turn out as in dancrilis' cosy scenario: if everything gets wrapped up with a neat little ribbon and the trip continues as if the mutiny subplot never happened, then what was the point of including it in the first place?

I mentioned this in the discussion for the previous strip, but my bet is, this is showing how the Order come to lose the convenience of having an airship ready to take them wherever they want to go. For reasons we can't predict but that will become clear as the story unfolds, the plot of the rest of the story will only work if they don't have the airship, so something has to come wrong, and the entire reason the mutiny subplot was created was to provide that something.

[Kish]

Bandana's lack of loyalty to her shipmates and all-round mendacity
It's remarkable how dedicated some posters on this board are to their entirely fabricated Bad Bandana narrative.

Andi and certain board posters aside, there is actually no indication that Bandana has done anything that wasn't the best way of dealing with the giants and saving the maximum possible number of the crewmembers along with the world, since she became Captain. Anything. Ever.

(The lack of a unified, loyal crew under Bandana is because Andi makes it ununified and disloyal and for no other reason. Your assertion that if the rest of the crew was loyal they would have somehow incapacitated Andi as a free action from all over the ship and so it's beyond dispute that they are not is notable mainly because it's such an obvious power-play that it makes it plain you know what utter tosh what you're saying is.)

[Jasdoif]

Lastly I just want to point out that in 3.5 rules, nonlethal damage can be healed like any other hit points. A long, long-past comic established they have "crates" of healing potions (comic #937). If Bandana could count on the loyalty of the crew, then Andi would already have been restrained and she would have already had a potion shoved in her face. You can say it's because they are bad people or not, but the lack of a unified, loyal crew under Bandana is pretty much beyond dispute.I'm going to guess the crew that witnessed Bandana being knocked out are too busy trying to keep the Mechane intact to abandon their posts and incapacitate another crewmember. You know, unlike Andi.

[SethoMarkus]

It's remarkable how dedicated some posters on this board are to their entirely fabricated Bad Bandana narrative.

Andi and certain board posters aside, there is actually no indication that Bandana has done anything that wasn't the best way of dealing with the giants and saving the maximum possible number of the crewmembers along with the world, since she became Captain. Anything. Ever.

This. Although I understand this is also opinion, in part, I think this interpretation takes less stretching than a "Bad Bandana" viewpoint. By all means, you are free to like Andi, but also please acknowledge that The Giant is likely setting Andi up to be the badguy in this scenario. You can think that is unfair all you'd like, but it doesn't change it.





Lastly I just want to point out that in 3.5 rules, nonlethal damage can be healed like any other hit points. A long, long-past comic established they have "crates" of healing potions (comic #937). If Bandana could count on the loyalty of the crew, then Andi would already have been restrained and she would have already had a potion shoved in her face. You can say it's because they are bad people or not, but the lack of a unified, loyal crew under Bandana is pretty much beyond dispute.



Alternative interpretation: The rest of the Mechane's crew is more professional than Andi and realize there is a time and place for such things, notably times when the ship is not at risk of flying headlong into a mountain.

In fact, I would not be the least bit surprised if a hastily administered healing potion isn't coming up in the next post or two.

[dancrilis]

They do need the airship, or at least believe they do.
They don't and they shouldn't.
Options:
Belkar wild emphaty's a Roc (or similiar creature).
Vaarsuvius charms a Roc or similiar creature.
Vaarsuvius charms a Giant Cleric to assist them with Clerical Magic.
Vaarsuvius uses Polymorph (possibly extended) to help in locating a creature they can use/carrying them.
etc.

These are high level adventurers with access to potent abilities - they might find it more convinient to have an Airship as it is already there with them but if they lose it in a crash they can likely come up with something better then walking or crying.




What if they land and are unable to take off once more? What if they are unable to repair the ship? What if the giants pursue them while they are grounded? What if additonal threats surface? What if they lose more altitude after passing a mountain peak and are now trapped with mountains too high to pass on all sides?
Don't need to land (they didn't after the storm), but taking 20 (or even 10) is better than risking a critical roll in the middle of combat.



I would be so surprised if that is the turn of events that the comic takes that I would question if it was April 1st.
Your threshold for surprise is lower than mine.



That was when the situation changed - not because of an external factor, but because Andi committed mutiny. Regardless of her motivations, she believed the captain's plan was not working and believed her own plan was the only viable option, despite being given good logical reasons why it wasn't (mistake #1). She then did something to enable the plan to be changed, intentionally or accidentally/impulsively makes no difference when you commit mutiny (mistake #2). Then she ordered the plan to be changed (mistake #3). She then wasted time trying to justify her actions to the crew instead of giving orders to secure their new situation (mistake #4), dithered when she got around to giving those orders (mistake #5), and tried to pass off luck and the helmsman's skill as her own competence (mistake #6). What she achieved was to separate the Mechane from the group that was most effective at preventing damage to it (mistake #7), to cause further damage to the ship (which is something she wanted to prevent) (mistake #8), to get them lost (they are off the mapped path with no idea of where to go) (mistake #9), and to potentially strand them somewhere where they cannot physically get out of due to their damage (mistake #10), or at least where the only way out is to go through the gauntlet of rock-throwing frost giants again.

I don't think her plan is to turn around, but if the Order can clear the path (now that they are aware of the Giants) than bottlenecking until that is done seems fine.
Imagine for a second that the Engineer-Captain knows more about hull integrity than the First-Mate-Captain and that them crashing into the ground was not ideal speculation but basically certain - than mistake 1 is not a mistake, following on the others are not mistakes.
I do wonder how this forum would be reacting if Bandana had gotten her way and the very next strip the ship had crashed into the ground when another rock hit it.



Let's say that Passage Pass is 10km long...
Cut for lenght.
30 feet a round movement speed not a second.
Also Airships have rules in DnD (basically the same as normal ships).



You're living in Cloud Cuckooland if you think that.
Not being surprised is not the same as a prediction. I also wouldn't be surprised if the ship crashs into the ground after the giants on board stop focusing on Roy and cut the cables (making the entire Bandana vs Andi thing meaningless as the ship would have fallen out of the sky anyway).

[SethoMarkus]

They don't and they shouldn't.
Options:
Belkar wild emphaty's a Roc (or similiar creature).
Vaarsuvius charms a Roc or similiar creature.
Vaarsuvius charms a Giant Cleric to assist them with Clerical Magic.
Vaarsuvius uses Polymorph (possibly extended) to help in locating a creature they can use/carrying them.
etc.

These are high level adventurers with access to potent abilities - they might find it more convinient to have an Airship as it is already there with them but if they lose it in a crash they can likely come up with something better then walking or crying.

Being a mode of transportation is not the quality that makes the Mechane desirable, nay, necessary, in the eyes of the Order. It is the property of arriving just in the nick of time.

Had it merely been a convenient mode of transportation, I imagine the Order could have hired other transportation for cheaper fees.

I do agree that if the Mechane crashes or deserts them, the Order will find another way to reach Firmament on time (or will have some way to overcome the consequences of arriving too late), because that is the kind of story this is.

I highly doubt this is the kind of story that will forgive Andi, however.



Don't need to land (they didn't after the storm), but taking 20 (or even 10) is better than risking a critical roll in the middle of combat.


Only one of my "what-ifs" involved landing. What about the others?


I would like to make another note that I could understand (though not agree with) Andi's behavior had she mutinied before the Frost Giant ambush. I would have both understood and agreed with her had she decided to leave the ship at Tinkertown. I cannot understand nor agree with enacting a mutiny in the middle of an ambush and ongoing attack, however.

I said it once before and will say it again, if you do not or can not trust the commander of a vessel, tou have no business boarding or remaining on the vessel. To do so is a failure on your part, not the commander's. If Andi could not bring herself to trust that Bandana would decide what is best as Captain, she should have left the crew at any point after Julio left Bandana in command. It doesn't matter whether Bandana actually makes the best decisions or not, as a crew member you must have the trust and loyalty to follow their orders and decisions. If you cannot, leave.

[Jasdoif]

Andi and certain board posters aside, there is actually no indication that Bandana has done anything that wasn't the best way of dealing with the giants and saving the maximum possible number of the crewmembers along with the world, since she became Captain. Anything. Ever.Pretty much. While Bandana clearly doesn't have the crew's unswerving loyalty, that's because such loyalty isn't quickly earned. She doesn't let the passengers get out of menial work (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html), and she responds to the crew's complaints (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html); I'm not sure what else can be reasonably expected of her by this point. She's not the charismatic inspirational type of leader that Julio is, but it seems Andi is the only one that really has a problem with that.

[Quibblicious]

What this mutiny needs is a dose of Jones & Rodriguez...

Q

[Unoriginal]

due to Bandana's lack of loyalty to her shipmates and all-round mendacity

I'm sorry?

Bandana's lack of loyalty? Seriously?

I guess that's how you say about someone who argued to get you payed 200 gold for a job as soon as the concern of money came up, nowadays.

I guess that's what you say about someone whose first concern when the ship was damaged was to keep her shipmates safe, nowadays.

I guess that's what you say about someone who always tells the adventurers to help when the ship is in troubles, nowadays.



Bandana had turned into an Order of the Stick fangirl (of the actual in-universe party, that is) and prioritized helping the flashy adventurers on their big important quest over the loyalty (and, eventually, the lives) of her crew.

No she didn't. She saw the situation, and took the option that gave her crew the best chance at survival.


my main criticism of Bandana is that she really should have seen it coming. In this conception, the mistake Bandana made was less in chewing Andi out in front of everybody, and more that she insulted Andi and then turned her back on her, like she expected that her brash, cocky charisma was just so great that of course Andi would be all like "daaaaaamn, I just got served!"

So your main criticism is that, according to you, Bandana should have expected Andi to assault her after she got told "stop f***ing around and do you f***ing job".

Which means that you think Andi should be expected to assault people over somewhat aggressive retorts. Or that you think that Bandana should know better than to trust Andi in a crisis.


but the lack of a unified, loyal crew under Bandana is pretty much beyond dispute.

Everyone except Andi had no problem obeying to Bandana loyally and in an united fashion, before she got knocked out. Once Andi tried to take over, they have been shocked, arguing over wtf just happened, argued who should be captain, and desperately asking if they should go right or left because of the upcoming mountain in front of them.

Almost as if they're used to follow a captain and don't know what to do when one of their friends commit mutiny in the middle of a dangerous battle.


Since they are the main characters this ultimately all comes back to the OotS themselves, who have generally been objectifying and standoffish in their interactions with the entire crew and are generally just treating them as generic NPCs there to facilitate their own personal quests.

Yeah, remember that time where Roy ignored Andi's attempt at striking a conversation over the vampire they were transporting? Or that time Belkar totally ignored Andi when she asked him to stop cutting the ship's hull?

Oh, wait...



I kind of like Andi because she is the NPC who takes issue with that dynamic and lashes out against it, just to knock the player characters out of their comfort zone.

No she isn't.

Andi's interactions with the Order's members have been nothing but cordiale, ironically enough, aside from being reasonably upset at Belkar for knifing the ship. The only time she spoke against them was when she rallied the rest of the crew to demand to be payed, and when she got payed she went "we shouldn't do this job in the first place!"


What if Vaarsuvius had been finding creative ways to use hir spells to help the airship's operation on a daily basis?

Even a wizard as powerful as Vaarsuvius has only a limited amount of spells per day. That's the kind of thing you don't spend willy-nilly when you're on an adventure where you can be attacked at any time. And Vaarsuvius has been show to help whenever he was needed and could do so.



What if Belkar had been cooking gourmet meals with HIS skill that he's so proud of?

Funny you says this, since Belkar has been shown cooking in the Mechane. But I'm sure the halfling cooking regularly for the crew he's paying to travel with would have totally helped prevent the mutiny.


What if Roy had been using all those knowledge skills he's so proud of, or just his crazy strength, to pitch in with the crew routinely

I'm not sure where this knowledge skill of him would have been useful, in the circumstances that were shown. And I'm not sure where you found the idea that Roy didn't help the best he could, given that he also has to do little things like train a new class and all those wacky time-wasters adventurers have instead of a real job.


that they have to pick a side.

Yeah, because Andi is soooo anti-Order, am I right? What with her whole speech about why what she did was right hinging on Roy being able to handle the giants, and on Elan to repair the balloon.

[Clistenes]

If anybody still had doubts about Rich's intentions with regard to Andi's character, the last two strips should end them... He is portraying her as petty, incompetent and delusional.


This. Although I understand this is also opinion, in part, I think this interpretation takes less stretching than a "Bad Bandana" viewpoint. By all means, you are free to like Andi, but also please acknowledge that The Giant is likely setting Andi up to be the badguy in this scenario. You can think that is unfair all you'd like, but it doesn't change it.

Well, there probably are still people who think Tarquin is a suave supercool magnificent bastard evil genius, despite The Giant both showing his flaws in his comic and explicitly writing that he is not such...

Andi is going to become Tarquin II. Years from now some people will still claim that she was right and that she should be captain...

[dancrilis]

Only one of my "what-ifs" involved landing. What about the others?
Ok.



What if they land and are unable to take off once more?
I am taking that this is the one you feel has been covered.

What if they are unable to repair the ship?
Then they are no better off directly but will know where the damage is at any rate and may be able to do something to protect those areas.


What if the giants pursue them while they are grounded?
Do you mean grounded but not landed? If so they could see about moving on - ships have a maximum speed change per round but they should have plenty of time to see any non-rogue giants.


What if additonal threats surface?
This is a risk no matter where they are - the Giants might have the end of the normal pass stocked with dragons in case the ship makes it through the bolders (so they can kill the adventurers after they have expanded their magic). Who knows.


What if they lose more altitude after passing a mountain peak and are now trapped with mountains too high to pass on all sides?

It is a risk no matter where they are as even the pass might have tight squeezes that if you go to low you would hit - but they might also have ways of lightening the ship (dumping Andi's patching Lumber for example - which might not be possible in combat as the crew need to be at stations etc).



I would like to make another note that I could understand (though not agree with) Andi's behavior had she mutinied before the Frost Giant ambush. I would have both understood and agreed with her had she decided to leave the ship at Tinkertown. I cannot understand nor agree with enacting a mutiny in the middle of an ambush and ongoing attack, however.
I have said a few times that she should have got off/been put off at Tinkertown.

[Unoriginal]

but if the Order can clear the path (now that they are aware of the Giants) than bottlenecking until that is done seems fine.

It seems to me that a lot of the people advocating for the Mechane to stop/slow down for repair get the impression that there is a good chance for the Order to defeat the Frost Giants if they do so.

There is not.

The Giants are tough. They have spellcasters and warriors who have shown to be a challenge to deal with when the Order has to deal with them directly. And the more time passes, the more can come and swarm the pass, as soon as the message "the enemies of our god are here" reach them.

And if they try later, the Order would be low on spell, assuming all of them even manages to find the airship thanks to Andi's creative use of sanity, and facing against opponents who had the time to both call for reinforcement and to learn what they're able to do.

[Unoriginal]

I have said a few times that she should have got off/been put off at Tinkertown.

Why are you defending her actions, then, if you think she shouldn't even be on the ship?

[SethoMarkus]

I am taking that this is the one you feel has been covered.

Correct.



Then they are no better off directly but will know where the damage is at any rate and may be able to do something to protect those areas.

Margianlly useful, though if they are unable to repair the ship it doesn't change the current situation.



Do you mean grounded but not landed? If so they could see about moving on - ships have a maximum speed change per round but they should have plenty of time to see any non-rogue giants.

I apologize, I missed the "grounded" bit, which is embarrassing since I was the one who wrote it. But yes, thank you for assuming I meant "stuck relatively in place".

Seeing the giants coming doesn't mean the giants are not a threat. If the Mechane cannot use altitude or speed to their advantage, they are in a rough spot if the giants do begin to attack, as Roy is the only combatant in the Order free to repel them at the moment.



This is a risk no matter where they are - the Giants might have the end of the normal pass stocked with dragons in case the ship makes it through the bolders (so they can kill the adventurers after they have expanded their magic). Who knows.

Agreed, tacitly. The "unknown" will need to be faced either way, which is why I believe additional risks are not worth it without the possibility of a major payout for the gamble. So far, I am unconvinced turning off the main pass offers any such benefit.



It is a risk no matter where they are as even the pass might have tight squeezes that if you go to low you would hit - but they might also have ways of lightening the ship (dumping Andi's patching Lumber for example - which might not be possible in combat as the crew need to be at stations etc).

In fact they do know whether the main pass has any such obstacles. They would be on the map known by regular travelers over the range. The main pass by definition is the best path to avoid the majority of these obstacles, that is why it is the main pass. And I may be wrong here, but isn't it also the only pass?



I have said a few times that she should have got off/been put off at Tinkertown.

This last bit wasn't intentionally directed just at you. It was meant as a general "I do understand human responses to danger" deal. I acknowledge we are in agreement on this point.

[Jasdoif]

The main pass by definition is the best path to avoid the majority of these obstacles, that is why it is the main pass. And I may be wrong here, but isn't it also the only pass?No, Bandana mentioned the existence of "the other passes" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1051.html).

[SethoMarkus]

No, Bandana mentioned the existence of "the other passes" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1051.html).

I stand corrected on that point then. Thank you

[Unoriginal]

And I may be wrong here, but isn't it also the only pass?


Bandana mentioned that the Giants would be there at any other passes they could try. It might mean there is other known passes, even if this one was the best, but it would take time to go to them and the Mechane would face the same problems, probably in worse.

One thing is clear, though: the path the helmsman was following that definitively the only known one around those parts, as they're off-chart and lost as soon as Andi decided to not follow it.

[nocoolnamejim]

Apparently Bandana following the expressed wishes of her Captain read outloud by the Captain from on the deck of the very ship that Andi appears intent on getting destroyed to take Elan and his band wherever they need to go = showing massive disloyalty to her crew.

Here's a more straightforward Occam's Razor:

Staging a mutiny in the very middle of a battle puts the entire ship and it's crew more at risk and therefore is showing massive disloyalty to the ship's crew.

A brief recap. Here are Andi's actions in the last few strips.

1. Claims that the adventurers are "abandoning" them when they're actually leaving the relative safety of the ship to directly engage the giants attacking the ship and try and protect them. (#1057)

2. Wastes time arguing with the Captain on the bridge instead of repairing damage during the middle of a crisis. (#1061: Note that at this point she's been not doing her job for multiple strips now to hang out and badger the captain.)

3. Gets a direct explanation as to why the Captain is choosing what she does (#1061 again, which, let's recall, is not necessary. In the middle of an actual combat situation the Captain is entirely justified in making the explanation as simple as "STFU and go do your damned job you idiot!")

During the same strip Andi insists that Bandana "do something", which she actually does, which results in the third boarder not being able to land on the ship and subsequently falling off with no major harm done.

4. Stages a violent mutiny in the middle of a battle, distracting every single member of the crew in a moment of crisis. (#1062 AND still going in #1063 AND STILL going in #1064, which is why you don't do this in the very middle of a battle. Notably included in this fight is her daring a crew member to stab her. LEADERSHIP!)

5. Demands that the ship change course suddenly and without warning, which causes the mending spell that Elan was working on to fizzle because he has no way of knowing that such a plan change is coming and leaving behind all the people trying to protect them. (#1063) Particularly notable this from the pilot: "Anyone have strong feelings on which way I should go around this next mountain."

The pilot would need to ask a total of SEVEN TIMES before getting an answer to this pretty damned important question while Andi and the crew fight over her jealousy induced meltdown.

"Anyone have strong feelings on which way I should go around this next mountain?"
"Port or starboard Andi?"
"I kinda need a decision here..."
"ANDI!" "Which way around this mountain?!?"
"Andi, if I could tell you I wouldn't be asking."
"YES I KNOW THE NATURE OF THE DILEMMA THANK YOU!"
"ANDI!

6. Congratulated herself on how awesome she is for the ship only brushing against a mountain (causing another mending to fail) rather than slamming straight into a mountain. (#1065)

I'm not making this up. This is the actual sequence of events. I'm not bashing Andi to prop up Bandana. I'm saying Andi has been so note-worthily incompetent that I'm genuinely shocked that she hasn't magically transported herself to the Demi-Plane of Idiot Ball Carrying.

[Shining Wrath]

No, Bandana mentioned the existence of "the other passes" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1051.html).

The strip showing the map is here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1044.html). Bandana says "All the best paths between the peaks have been charted", and assuming the purple lines are the aforementioned paths, it's a long haul to Fissure Gap. Presumably they'd need to circumnavigate the mountains under B's right hand, which looks like it's at least as long a haul as the trip through Passage Pass.

But I want to re-emphasize "All the best paths between the peaks have been charted". That implies there may be other paths, but they are somehow suboptimal - higher, monsters, whatever.

There is no rational hope that there's a suitable path, and Andi knew that when she demanded Bandana turn aside. She panicked, and she screwed up.

[8BitNinja]

Gross :smalltongue:

Q

You know what's grosser to eat?

Yellow clouds :smallyuk:

[JumboWheat01]

You know what's grosser to eat?

Yellow clouds :smallyuk:

I can't say I've ever actually seen a yellow cloud. Orange ones, yes, but not yellow.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Never been in a dust storm? Lucky grainling.

Anyway, for those who're wondering what else the frost giants have available, I'll just note that we've seen enough giants on screen to comprise about four tribes. According to the srd, and taking averages, they should have about 68 ogres, 84 winter wolves and six white dragons as back up. Maybe more. Ogres don't matter so much, but the wolves have the movement rate to run the Mechane down, and the dragons are perfect for aerial interception.

More to the point, there's likely a reason we haven't seen scale nor hair of these beasties yet.

On to the subject of predictions: The Mechane's knack for just-in-time delivery pretty much has to come into play for the Order to arrive at the most dramatic moment in Firmament. And that's where the Order will lose their ride. See, the Mechane needs some serious repair work at this point, and the dwarven harbor master won't let them leave until they can pass the mandatory safety inspection. Fate of the World. Psshht, we've got rules that we have to follow, no matter what. As we've seen repeatedly, most recently with First King Dvalin, the dwarves have cornered the market on Lawful Stupid, and won't even flinch from procedure in the face of annihilation and eternal damnation.

[8BitNinja]

I can't say I've ever actually seen a yellow cloud. Orange ones, yes, but not yellow.

Thankfully you live in a place where the cloud dwelling creatures know how to use the bathroom.

[Snails]

It's remarkable how dedicated some posters on this board are to their entirely fabricated Bad Bandana narrative.

Andi and certain board posters aside, there is actually no indication that Bandana has done anything that wasn't the best way of dealing with the giants and saving the maximum possible number of the crewmembers along with the world, since she became Captain. Anything. Ever.

I agree.

If we hold Bandanna to a high standard, then Andi also must be judged by a high standard.

Sure, it is easy to ding Bandanna for some modest-sized rookie errors. It is even easier to find a mountain of evidence that Andi is entirely incompetent when she has stepped outside of an engine room.

[danielxcutter]

I agree.

If we hold Bandanna to a high standard, then Andi also must be judged by a high standard.

Sure, it is easy to ding Bandanna for some modest-sized rookie errors. It is even easier to find a mountain of evidence that Andi is entirely incompetent when she has stepped outside of an engine room.

Thirded.

Oh sure, Bandanna's made a few mistakes like not getting the Andi problem solved once and for all, and her sarcastic words directed to Andi really could have been worded better, I don't deny that.

But comparing them to Andi's faults is like trying to bull rush the Tarrasque with a goblin - way too much of a size modifier to ignore.

[hamishspence]

I have said a few times that she should have got off/been put off at Tinkertown.

The problem is - her insubordination hadn't been enough in Tinkertown, for "putting her off the ship" to be reasonable (back then, she was doing her job, even if she complained a bit). Especially considering that chief engineers of airships are likely to be rare.

As such, I can't fault Bandanna's judgement for not putting Andi off at Tinkertown.

[Mido]

I was waiting for the fireworks on the Bandanna v Andi debate and so far, still pretty much the same. Kinda makes me feel like the guy on this vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC4BormRljM) at the 1:19 mark.

I think I had posted a lengthy thing about the current discussion on the previous oots update discussion post (tried to put it against the standard of the Art of War), although maybe I could have summarized it much better, but essentially, IMHO, it still all boils down to how these 2 justified their decision making. Bandanna's was well thought out (based on all the information at hand, with the amount of time available to scout them ex: mapped out pass), based on previous agreements (with their "clients", the crew, and, most importantly, the vacationing previous commanding officer) and on tangible factors that they were able to foresee (the pass, the loyalty of the OOTS). Andi's was impulsive (and, I hope I'm not reaching here, coming from a biased standpoint due to her constant assertion of seniority), based most often solely in the heat of the moment (actions in the last few pages she's been on should be self-evident at this point) and what-ifs (what if it's much safer on this uncharted, not scouted path in this mountainous region; what if those adventurers who charged into the fray have abandoned us, etc.). I think I mentioned it before but it is, as much as possible, always better to confirm your observations rather than act on them on impulse, assume philosophy and all that (you know, the whole ass out of you and me thing).

Ooh, also found the clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9tZp0eUDIs) quite similar to the Mechane crew's recent turn of events too, think I posted a lengthy thing trying to describe it on the previous post as well. Would you applaud or condemn David's actions there I wonder.

I'm actually aghast (TURN UNDEAD!!) at the amount of loyalty and trust, inspite of the evidence shown in the narrative, that Andi has been able to garner. I did like the character (liked Miko too at one point... what?), but the things she's doing, very hard to defend to put it lightly. Guess my like meter went down to neutral at this point (which I think is a tad generous, but that's just my estimation).

[Nightcanon]

Apparently Bandana following the expressed wishes of her Captain read outloud by the Captain from on the deck of the very ship that Andi appears intent on getting destroyed to take Elan and his band wherever they need to go = showing massive disloyalty to her crew.

Here's a more straightforward Occam's Razor:

Staging a mutiny in the very middle of a battle puts the entire ship and it's crew more at risk and therefore is showing massive disloyalty to the ship's crew.

A brief recap. Here are Andi's actions in the last few strips.

1. Claims that the adventurers are "abandoning" them when they're actually leaving the relative safety of the ship to directly engage the giants attacking the ship and try and protect them. (#1057)

2. Wastes time arguing with the Captain on the bridge instead of repairing damage during the middle of a crisis. (#1061: Note that at this point she's been not doing her job for multiple strips now to hang out and badger the captain.)

3. Gets a direct explanation as to why the Captain is choosing what she does (#1061 again, which, let's recall, is not necessary. In the middle of an actual combat situation the Captain is entirely justified in making the explanation as simple as "STFU and go do your damned job you idiot!")

During the same strip Andi insists that Bandana "do something", which she actually does, which results in the third boarder not being able to land on the ship and subsequently falling off with no major harm done.

4. Stages a violent mutiny in the middle of a battle, distracting every single member of the crew in a moment of crisis. (#1062 AND still going in #1063 AND STILL going in #1064, which is why you don't do this in the very middle of a battle. Notably included in this fight is her daring a crew member to stab her. LEADERSHIP!)

5. Demands that the ship change course suddenly and without warning, which causes the mending spell that Elan was working on to fizzle because he has no way of knowing that such a plan change is coming and leaving behind all the people trying to protect them. (#1063) Particularly notable this from the pilot: "Anyone have strong feelings on which way I should go around this next mountain."

The pilot would need to ask a total of SEVEN TIMES before getting an answer to this pretty damned important question while Andi and the crew fight over her jealousy induced meltdown.

"Anyone have strong feelings on which way I should go around this next mountain?"
"Port or starboard Andi?"
"I kinda need a decision here..."
"ANDI!" "Which way around this mountain?!?"
"Andi, if I could tell you I wouldn't be asking."
"YES I KNOW THE NATURE OF THE DILEMMA THANK YOU!"
"ANDI!

6. Congratulated herself on how awesome she is for the ship only brushing against a mountain (causing another mending to fail) rather than slamming straight into a mountain. (#1065)

I'm not making this up. This is the actual sequence of events. I'm not bashing Andi to prop up Bandana. I'm saying Andi has been so note-worthily incompetent that I'm genuinely shocked that she hasn't magically transported herself to the Demi-Plane of Idiot Ball Carrying.
All this proves is that the Giant is as guilty of groupthink whatever-it-was as the rest of the forum, and that Andi's awesomeness and excellent captaincy is being willfully hidden from all but the truly wise by the Giant's biased and unreliable storytelling...

[Quibblicious]

You know what's grosser to eat?

Yellow clouds :smallyuk:

Blame the cloud giants...

Q

[dancrilis]

The problem is - her insubordination hadn't been enough in Tinkertown, for "putting her off the ship" to be reasonable (back then, she was doing her job, even if she complained a bit). Especially considering that chief engineers of airships are likely to be rare.

As such, I can't fault Bandanna's judgement for not putting Andi off at Tinkertown.

I believe that my issue stems for the fact that I don't see Bandana as a decent boss.

She had been in command for three days (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html) when they encountered the storm - and in that this she should have meet with the crew, set out expectations, heard expectations etc ... there is no evidence she did any of this.

When the storm hit I assume that Andi was up all night fixing it/making sure it didn't fall apart, than up all day watching the Gnomes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html), than up all night watching the gnomes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html) - while Bandana was away elsewhere for no better reason than "Andi's overseeing repairs, so I ain't got much else to do 'til the gnomes are done"*.
This timeline can be argued maybe she went to bed after rigging up the system, and maybe she didn't watch the gnomes all day and night ... but that would create a lapse in security.

So at this point we have a captain that has never actually detailed their vision for the ship and how things should work etc (bare in mind that Bandana is not taking on Julio's role as a high level adventurer capable of dealing with most threats they might meet), we have an overworked chief enginneer who is not being thanked for anything and is being given grief.

*As a note those Gnomes also would possible need to be watched for more than repairs - Julio and the Order both have enemies and so saboteur Gnomes are a valid concern (purchasing Improved Paranoia might be worth doing for many NPCs in a DnD world).

As such I feel that Bandana created a scenario where any trust/respect that her office commanded was likely expended when they left Tinkertown.

All of this means that Andi should have split (I have worked ~36 hour shifts for bosses like the above when it was needed - those bosses were never worth the time and never lasted in the role), but the reason she should have split was due to Bandana having shown herself to be unprepared for the responsibility of the role, and if she was aware of her crew Bandana could have asked her to leave.

After this came the Godsmoot - where Andi actually effectively lead a minor rebellion against Bandana's leadership.
Andi leaving here would likely have been a death sentence for herself so I can understand why she didn't leave there - but Bandana should have clarified her authority than and there or put her off.

Flash forward to the current mutiny - Andi choose the wrong time to act.
But the mutiny seems to have been caused by not being listened to, no respect shown and being seen to be directed towards death by a captain who didn't value the lives of the crew (it is potentially a very rare event for any of the crew to die and the money that Bandana argeed with Roy would not bring them back unless there are 75 crew - she could have included a health plan if she cared about them).

So yes Andi is responsible for snapping (I would have been happier with her decision if it was made as coldly as Redcloak dealing with Tsukio as than it could be seen as pragmatic rather than emotional).

Andi should have walked away at Tinkertown given her observations of Bandana as captain (or staged a non-violant mutiny there) and that is on Andi - but I think most of the issues that have lead to the current situation results from Bandana being a bad boss (she didn't even consider that her crew might want to be paid until they went - 'we want to be paid' - when if my timing is right was 5 days into her role).

So yes even if Andi crashes the ship into a mountain and they all die and the world is destroyed I would be happy to argue that is might have been no better of the other way, but more importantly that even if she turns out to be provably wrong I think her behaviour is understandable.

Seperately:

Why are you defending her actions, then, if you think she shouldn't even be on the ship?
I also like to support the underdog - if the forum was to turn on Bandana to the level of calling for her death at the hands of Lawful Good beings to show how bad she is I would (I believe) take Bandana's side against execution - she hasn't done anything to deserve it. I just think that she created this situation she is in via her own blindness and lack of work ethic.

As a corollary a lot of the blame is Julio's - as throwing people into a sink or swim scenario can lead to people sinking.

[Jasdoif]

She had been in command for three days (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html) when they encountered the storm - and in that this she should have meet with the crew, set out expectations, heard expectations etc ... there is no evidence she did any of this.Is there evidence she didn't do any of that? Bandana seems to have promised the crew something (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html), so I'm fairly sure she meet with them at some point.

[Snails]

I do not think anyone is claiming that Andi's position is not understandable. I understand it perfectly. Andi's has some real gripes that she has blown out of proportion, as demonstrated by the fact that the entire rest of the crew does not see things similarly. But she is blinded by her delusions that she would be a better captain, in spite of the fact that there is not the tiniest iota of evidence that Andi has even the smallest degree of competence outside the engine room.

In contrast, Bandanna is making some rookie errors, but doing a decent job overall.

Sure, one can complain about Bandanna. But I do not see how it is rationally possible to believe that Bandanna is a poor captain without noticing that Andi would be a complete disaster (and is likely to prove so any minute now).

[dancrilis]

Is there evidence she didn't do any of that? Bandana seems to have promised the crew something (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html), so I'm fairly sure she meet with them at some point.

Fair point - she seems to have promised them something, something which she was not delivering (seeming to be that they were done, based on the first comment in the panel).

This might be linked to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html) where the crew were under the impression that they were going to be able to find a nice fat merchant ship after ditching the vampire ... of course Bandana didn't seem to be going that route either as she was happy to continue ferrying adventurers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0993.html).

So even if she had meetings she didn't seem to be ensuring that the crew knew what the score was (pointless meetings are even worse than no meetings in my book, and meetings where you come out with the actual wrong understanding are worse again).

[Chei]

I believe that my issue stems for the fact that I don't see Bandana as a decent boss.

This much has been evident from the start. Bandana hasn't been a stellar captain in my book either, but she's been entirely functional and nothing she did has warranted mutiny.


She had been in command for three days (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html) when they encountered the storm - and in that this she should have meet with the crew, set out expectations, heard expectations etc ... there is no evidence she did any of this.

This has been covered by Julio himself when he left her in command. She knows it's just a temporary thing. The crew knows it. That doesn't change the nature of that hierarchy, and the vast majority of the crew should have already been treating her as an officer. The fact that Andi can't take Bandana's promotion gracefully isn't a result of not having a meeting where she gets a vote.


So at this point we have a captain that has never actually detailed their vision for the ship and how things should work etc (bare in mind that Bandana is not taking on Julio's role as a high level adventurer capable of dealing with most threats they might meet), we have an overworked chief enginneer who is not being thanked for anything and is being given grief.

Again, she's a temporary captain. The captain himself has left the vision she is supposed to follow, i.e. a mission, and they just happen to have a bunch of high level adventurers on board now. The overworked chief engineer has been insubordinate. At first casually, and then here at the gnomes, openly. In my experience, employees that mouth off don't get thanked.


*As a note those Gnomes also would possible need to be watched for more than repairs - Julio and the Order both have enemies and so saboteur Gnomes are a valid concern (purchasing Improved Paranoia might be worth doing for many NPCs in a DnD world).

This is so reaching I'm not even going to argue about it.


As such I feel that Bandana created a scenario where any trust/respect that her office commanded was likely expended when they left Tinkertown.

I'm going to assume you mean only with Andi here, because the rest of the crew trusted and respected her just fine throughout. So, remember, Andi's trust/respect in Bandana was set to 0 pretty much from the get go. In her first conversation with Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0961.html) she's already calling Bandana a kid in the same breath as she complains that they're sheltering a vampire. Obviously, their brief clashes with one another didn't help, but Andi absolutely never showed a willingness to meet Bandana halfway.


After this came the Godsmoot - where Andi actually effectively lead a minor rebellion against Bandana's leadership.

And Bandana quashed it to the satisfaction of everyone but Andi, in what might have actually been my favorite moment of her being captain. You're treating this like it was a bad thing, but really, it's just continuing the pattern: only Andi was having ongoing problems. On #1028 she wished for Julio's return, as if he'd be doing things any differently? If he were on the ship at that moment, they'd still be ferrying the OOTS.


Flash forward to the current mutiny - Andi choose the wrong time to act.

It's always the wrong time for a wrong act.


But the mutiny seems to have been caused by not being listened to, no respect shown and being seen to be directed towards death by a captain who didn't value the lives of the crew (it is potentially a very rare event for any of the crew to die and the money that Bandana argeed with Roy would not bring them back unless there are 75 crew - she could have included a health plan if she cared about them).

Just, wow. Bandana doesn't value the lives of the crew? She values them enough to get them paid, but whether they live or die is their own affair, I suppose. And yes, definitely for sure thing on the health plan, A+ plan there. No, she should just gain 9 cleric levels herself, actually. There's just so much Bandana can do that she didn't do, and that proves she's a bad captain.


So yes Andi is responsible for snapping (I would have been happier with her decision if it was made as coldly as Redcloak dealing with Tsukio as than it could be seen as pragmatic rather than emotional).

I'm going to do your favorite thing, and misinterpret your statement: "I wish Andi acted like a more effective villain so people wouldn't hate her as much." Because honestly? I wish the exact same thing. I wish the Andi you've described is the Andi we have. I'd love to see more complexity in the character conflict. A stone cold mutiny that ends up succeeding would really spice things up a bit. Edit: Incidentally, I'm not saying Andi is a villain. She isn't.

It's not what we have, though. Andi exploded over a bruised ego, and even if her plan succeeds, she's still not fit for command.


So yes even if Andi crashes the ship into a mountain and they all die and the world is destroyed I would be happy to argue that is might have been no better of the other way, but more importantly that even if she turns out to be provably wrong I think her behaviour is understandable.

Yeah, figured. Well, not worth arguing further, then. Incidentally, you're conflating "understandable" with "agreeable", I think. I think her behavior is understandable.


As a corollary a lot of the blame is Julio's - as throwing people into a sink or swim scenario can lead to people sinking.

No arguments there.

[Cazero]

I believe that my issue stems for the fact that I don't see Bandana as a decent boss.
Ever been on a ship or in the military? Being a boss there is very, very different.
For starters, someone who quits is putting everyone else at risk. That's why desertion is punishable.


She had been in command for three days (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html) when they encountered the storm - and in that this she should have meet with the crew, set out expectations, heard expectations etc ... there is no evidence she did any of this.
Bandana's been on the crew since she's a kid. Everybody already knows her. And besides, as something awfuly boring, such things would happen off-panel without us ever being told they happened.


When the storm hit I assume that Andi was up all night fixing it/making sure it didn't fall apart, than up all day watching the Gnomes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html), than up all night watching the gnomes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html) - while Bandana was away elsewhere for no better reason than "Andi's overseeing repairs, so I ain't got much else to do 'til the gnomes are done"
The Captain, who lacks the technical expertise required to assist in repairing the ship, choose not to waste everyone time being in the way of the engineers on board, and you say it's a bad thing? I sure as hell wouldn't want a chief accountant coming over and blocking passageways in the ship while I run around to fix things.



As such I feel that Bandana created a scenario where any trust/respect that her office commanded was likely expended when they left Tinkertown.
Yet nobody other than Andi had any issues of trust or respect with Bandana being in charge. It's pretty clear that the issue lies within Andi's head.


All of this means that Andi should have split (I have worked ~36 hour shifts for bosses like the above when it was needed - those bosses were never worth the time and never lasted in the role), but the reason she should have split was due to Bandana having shown herself to be unprepared for the responsibility of the role, and if she was aware of her crew Bandana could have asked her to leave.
The level of awareness you are asking from Bandana is mind-reading. We've never seen Andi telling Bandana to her face that she shouldn't be captain. Even right before hitting her with a wrench, Andi only implied it. If Andi had that much trouble with the new leadership, she should have made it clear to said leadership. Passive-aggressiveness is not an efficient communication method.


After this came the Godsmoot - where Andi actually effectively lead a minor rebellion against Bandana's leadership.
Andi leaving here would likely have been a death sentence for herself so I can understand why she didn't leave there - but Bandana should have clarified her authority than and there or put her off.
Andi raised a legitimate point, getting herself the support of the crew. Bandana addressed it and solved it pretty much instantly. Then Andi ignored the part where Bandana was a good captain to resume bitching without the support of a legitimate point.


Flash forward to the current mutiny - Andi choose the wrong time to act.
That's an understatement.
Spontaneous mutiny is endangering your ship and your crew. Always. Even more so in battle, or if the ship is damaged. That's why there is a "code" for mutiny to happen with a consensus of senior crewmates while the situation is clear.


But the mutiny seems to have been caused by not being listened to, no respect shown
Yes. Andi did that. Since day one. Then Bandana have harsh words for her, just that once, because it really wasn't the moment for all that crap.


and being seen to be directed towards death by a captain who didn't value the lives of the crew (it is potentially a very rare event for any of the crew to die and the money that Bandana argeed with Roy would not bring them back unless there are 75 crew - she could have included a health plan if she cared about them).
...The money is the health plan. Do you have any idea how much 200 gold is worth in D&Dland?
Not a resurrection, granted, but still enough to live like a king for weeks. Or is that months?


So yes Andi is responsible for snapping (I would have been happier with her decision if it was made as coldly as Redcloak dealing with Tsukio as than it could be seen as pragmatic rather than emotional).

Andi should have walked away at Tinkertown given her observations of Bandana as captain (or staged a non-violant mutiny there) and that is on Andi - but I think most of the issues that have lead to the current situation results from Bandana being a bad boss (she didn't even consider that her crew might want to be paid until they went - 'we want to be paid' - when if my timing is right was 5 days into her role).

So yes even if Andi crashes the ship into a mountain and they all die and the world is destroyed I would be happy to argue that is might have been no better of the other way, but more importantly that even if she turns out to be provably wrong I think her behaviour is understandable.
You conclusion is understandable?
My conclusion is that for someone who claims having spent 15 years on the same ship, she sure has no discipline whatsoever.
When the captain tells you to suck it up, you suck it up. That's basic discipline. Keeping ship crews alive since humanity started making ships big enough for the word crew to be invented.

[Kish]

This is goofy. dancrilis has openly admitted that Andi being in the right is a position they will always hold regardless of any evidence. There is a saying that you cannot reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themself into.

[dancrilis]

dancrilis has openly admitted that Andi being in the right is a position they will always hold regardless of any evidence.

That is inaccurate - being in the right is irrelevant when there is no right action.

Andi was in the wrong to attack Bandana there she should have dealt with her issues with Bandana at Tinkertown - but there were no right options here if she believed that death was the only result of following Bandana's course of action.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That is inaccurate - being in the right is irrelevant when there is no right action.

Andi was in the wrong to attack Bandana there she should have dealt with her issues with Bandana at Tinkertown - but there were no right options here if she believed that death was the only result of following Bandana's course of action.

Your statement is blatantly incorrect, and an insult to every person that followed their duly appointed leaders to certain death. The right action was to obey the Captain - as demonstrated by the rest of the crew.

And no, don't give me "she never signed up for this". She signed up to be a pirate (indeed, she complained that they weren't a taxi service back when it was convenient to do so). She knew what she was getting into, and the risks. The time for her to leave was when 200 gp where offered and accepted - she stayed, therefore her duty was to follow the captain's orders, regardless of what she felt those orders would lead to.

This is on Andi. Absolutely nothing Bandanna has done is anywhere near bad enough to justify any of Andi's actions, and it is clear that it is your personal biases against Bandanna that are speaking, and not any kind of logic.

Grey Wolf

[pendell]

Especially considering that chief engineers of airships are likely to be rare.


This logic I disagree with; warships have to expect that any given crewmember can be incapacitated at the worst possible moment, so there must be additional people able to step in at a pinch. Andi's second should be up to doing her job. If Andi's second is NOT up to doing Andi's job when Andi is unavailable, that in itself is more than enough reason for Andi to leave.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Unoriginal]

But the mutiny seems to have been caused by not being listened to, no respect shown and being seen to be directed towards death by a captain who didn't value the lives of the crew.

Too bad none of those things happened.

Bandana listened to her crew, Andi included. When she agreed she did her best to accomplish what was decided on, and when she disagreed she explained why.

Bandana showed respect to her crew, Andi included, except when no respect was shown to her.

And Bandana always valued the life, the well-being and even the comfort of her crew.

The mutiny was caused by Andi, who didn't get things to happen her way, was denied by someone she had no respect for and who she considered inferior to herself, and who couldn't handle to be told to do her job in the middle of a stressful, life-or-death situation.


I also like to support the underdog

You mean playing the devil's lawyer. Which would be fine, if it was only for rhetoric purposes, but it's not because the devil is in a courthouse that he's not the devil.


So even if she had meetings she didn't seem to be ensuring that the crew knew what the score was

Bandana:"So, guys, we're going to transport those guys to this city, ASAP."
Crew:"Why?"
Order of the Sick:"The Order needs to save the world."
Crew:"That's bollocks, we're going to transport those goody-two-shoes in a perilous journey again and there will be nothing for us. We want retribution."
Bandana:"Fair enough. Order of the Stick, you have to give a bag of gold to each member of the crew."
OotS: "OK."
Crew: "Now we're talking! Alright, let's do this."

And Andi was the only one to raise an objection about what the crew was hired for.

[Jasdoif]

...The money is the health plan. Do you have any idea how much 200 gold is worth in D&Dland?
Not a resurrection, granted, but still enough to live like a king for weeks. Or is that months?Going by the DMG's upkeep variant...

One month at "live like a king" level
Two months if you're willing to "settle" for good rather than best
Four and a third months at typical traveler accommodation level
Sixteen and a half months (about a year and a third) at "cheap but not cheap enough to forage"
Forty months (three and a third years) at "supplementing income expenditure with foraging and hunting"
One hundred months (eight and a third years) at "almost entirely self-sufficient"

[dancrilis]

Your statement is blatantly incorrect, and an insult to every person that followed their duly appointed leaders to certain death. The right action was to obey the Captain - as demonstrated by the rest of the crew.
Your entitled to your opinion, I think your wrong.


... because the devil is in a courthouse that he's not the devil.

What?

[Unoriginal]

Your entitled to your opinion, I think your wrong.

WHAT about this is wrong, if you mind expanding on this point?




What?

Defending a character who is in the wrong is fine, as long as it's not forgotten they're in the wrong.

[dancrilis]

WHAT about this is wrong, if you mind expanding on this point?

Ok.


Your statement is blatantly incorrect, and an insult to every person that followed their duly appointed leaders to certain death. The right action was to obey the Captain - as demonstrated by the rest of the crew.
Following the order of your leader to certain death is admirable if it is to achieve a goal, it is not admirable to do so when it achieves nothing (or is actually opposed to the goal). As such I find the idea that my statement 'but there were no right options here if she believed that death was the only result of following Bandana's course of action' was 'an insult to every person that followed their duly appointed leaders to certain death' to be wrong, but I acknowledge this is highly subjective.

Let us take a thought experiment for anyone that wants to give it a go:
1. We are bomb disposal experts.
2. I am your boss.
3. You are more technically skilled.
4. We are faced with a nuclear bomb that will wipe out a major population center and likely trigger a global nuclear conflict.
5. I have decided to cut the red wire after listening to and discounting your input.
6. You are certain* that the red wire will trigger the explosion.
7. You have no idea how to disarm the bomb at this time but everything you know about bombs is that the red wire kills us (and lots of other people).
8. If you have more time you are pretty confident we will all die anyway but there is a chance that you will be able to save us (or others).

*Certain meaning not 'you think' but actual knowledge based on expertise that I do not share.

Do you stop me cutting the red wire? Or do you follow the chain of command?

Note that if 7 is 'kills us (but no one else)' than yes I would regard it as admirable for you to follow the chain of command and let me to save the city and prevent a global conflict, but if you think my actions will certainly result in the deaths of millions and likely the deaths of billions than I* couldn't really fault you for trying a different approach than merely nodding along with my decision.

*Actually I would fault you as I would likely be convinced I was right before cutting the wire - but if I was operating as a neutral observer of these event I (as the observer) could not fault you.

[Kish]

Your entitled to your opinion, I think your wrong.WHAT about this is wrong, if you mind expanding on this point?
In two of the three cases it should be "you're" rather than "your." "You're entitled" is as contraction of "you are entitled." "Your opinion," possessive, only one that's correct. "You're wrong" is "you are wrong," again a contraction of "you are."

[Peelee]

6. You are certain* that the red wire will trigger the explosion.

*Certain meaning not 'you think' but actual knowledge based on expertise that I do not share.


For this analogy to be in any way relevant to the comic, can you prove conclusively that Andi was 100% correct in her assertion that they would be killed if they kept going? Because that's basically what you're saying right now, without backing it up. I'd like you to back it up.

[Mido]

Let us take a thought experiment for anyone that wants to give it a go:
1. We are bomb disposal experts.


Ok, I'm not too sure about this, but this is the part that I take as different from the current situation in the comic. The difference being in the thought experiment, we have the same jobs but different levels of expertise. In the OOTS case, it's a more varied team dynamic. There's the captain, the helmsman, the engineer, etc. It's sort of like baseball and American football. With baseball, most if not all players are expected to be good at catching, throwing and hitting (gross generalization of the sport but if somebody can correct me here, please do so). In football, certain players are blockers, there are runners, QB, receivers, etc. In baseball, more often, players can be interchangeable in their positions most of the time, but in football, it is less so due to their specialization. Or maybe just the difference between CS:GO and Team Fortress 2, which may be what I should have led with. Just like sports is all.

I'm not entirely familiar how bomb disposal teams are drafted, but from the description, they seem to have the same body of knowledge, just different levels of expertise. So, if my estimation is correct, it is a different case from the Mechane incident. If they were a team of engineers, it may apply, but for teams with specializations, I don't think so.

[Cazero]

Let us take a thought experiment for anyone that wants to give it a go:
1. We are bomb disposal experts.
2. I am your boss.
3. You are more technically skilled.
4. We are faced with a nuclear bomb that will wipe out a major population center and likely trigger a global nuclear conflict.
5. I have decided to cut the red wire after listening to and discounting your input.
6. You are certain* that the red wire will trigger the explosion.
7. You have no idea how to disarm the bomb at this time but everything you know about bombs is that the red wire kills us (and lots of other people).
8. If you have more time you are pretty confident we will all die anyway but there is a chance that you will be able to save us (or others).

*Certain meaning not 'you think' but actual knowledge based on expertise that I do not share.

Do you stop me cutting the red wire? Or do you follow the chain of command?
That has nothing in common with the situation the Mechane faced.
Bandana did not dismiss Andi's technical expertise. She disagreed with Andi's conclusion of what to do with it.
Bandana's decisions wasn't made on a technical level where Andi's expertise would give her opinion some value.
Andi's "solution" really is jumping into an even bigger and urgent problem and hoping the first one disappear on it's own.

To paraphrase your example, the technicaly skilled bomb disposal expert admits that he has no darn clue how to disarm the bomb and suggests relocating the bomb in the middle of a desert to burrow it and minimize damage. It could work. But the boss says that the bomb needs to be disarmed anyway, even with a random attempt, because he knows for a fact that the bomb has a timer ticking that pretty much invalidate the technical expert's plan.

[GM_3826]

I just realized: this is rules based humor.

The king lives on!

[pendell]

In football, certain players are blockers, there are runners, QB, receivers, etc. In baseball, more often, players can be interchangeable in their positions most of the time, but in football, it is less so due to their specialization.

IMO the Mechane is most similar to a ship at sea which, in the modern world is highly specialized. Engineering officers are in an entirely different world, in many respects, from bridge officers. The care and feeding of a nuclear power plant (say) requires a great deal of intelligence and skill but it's not the sort of skill that transfers to tactical decisions, or to navigation, or to general command.

I'm given to understand it is not at all unusual for Engineering officers to have the same rank and even be senior in terms of time served to the ship's commanding officer. But the engineering officer isn't going to command the ship. I suspect they would only assume command responsibility if there were no bridge officers still available, in which case it's most likely time to order 'abandon ship'.

A real military person can talk to this; rank is not the same thing as authority or responsibility. Rank is the armed forces way of indicating that they trust you to be able to handle a certain level of either, but the fact that you are qualified to hold responsibility doesn't mean anything until you actually do. Thus the ship's captain is always senior aboard to all other officers, even visiting admirals, when it concerns the ship itself. Because while the others may hold higher rank, they aren't the ones who have been assigned the duty of commanding the ship.

Of course, any captain with an IQ above room temperature will pay very close attention indeed to a visiting Admiral's "suggestions", but when push comes to shove there's only ever one Captain.

At any rate, the difference in jobs between engineering and line is so great that engineering officers do not issue line orders, hold line responsibilities, or transfer over to command. OOTSworld doesn't have to operate by those rules, but given how out-of-depth Andi appears to be, I suspect it does.

ETA: There we go. In the US navy, an engineering officer is a restricted line officer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restricted_Line_Officer), exercising authority within their discipline but not considered qualified for general command. By contrast, a ship's captain will be an unrestricted line officer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_Line_Officer), and most likely comes from a specifically combat background. Both kinds of officer are different from Staff corps officers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_staff_corps), such as doctors. As a rule, staff corps is a 'courtesy commission', in which the rank is primarily given so that doctors can give orders while still upholding military decorum.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[dancrilis]

For this analogy to be in any way relevant to the comic, can you prove conclusively that Andi was 100% correct in her assertion that they would be killed if they kept going? Because that's basically what you're saying right now, without backing it up. I'd like you to back it up.

Nothing directly to do with Andi, it was a thought experiment following to the expansion of the point Unoriginal asked me to expand on related to this:

'but there were no right options here if she believed that death was the only result of following Bandana's course of action' was 'an insult to every person that followed their duly appointed leaders to certain death'

However in more direct answer your your query:

... can you prove conclusively that Andi was 100% correct in her assertion that they would be killed if they kept going? Because that's basically what you're saying right now, without backing it up.
No it is not what I was saying - in the scenario you might be wrong and red wire actually does defuse the bomb, I might be right - but everything you know tells you I am wrong.

Andi stated that Bandana was going to get them all killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html), and that the Giants were going to knock them out of the sky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html).

Is she lying, exaggerating, or truthful on her opinion? I don't know - but if she is being truthful than she legitimately believes that Bandana's course of action is going to lead them to a pointless death.

[SethoMarkus]

That has nothing in common with the situation the Mechane faced.
Bandana did not dismiss Andi's technical expertise. She disagreed with Andi's conclusion of what to do with it.
Bandana's decisions wasn't made on a technical level where Andi's expertise would give her opinion some value.
Andi's "solution" really is jumping into an even bigger and urgent problem and hoping the first one disappear on it's own.

To paraphrase your example, the technicaly skilled bomb disposal expert admits that he has no darn clue how to disarm the bomb and suggests relocating the bomb in the middle of a desert to burrow it and minimize damage. It could work. But the boss says that the bomb needs to be disarmed anyway, even with a random attempt, because he knows for a fact that the bomb has a timer ticking that pretty much invalidate the technical expert's plan.

This is definitely more accurate.

Andi may have more knowledge about the condition and limitations of the Mechane, and probably has a little knowledge of the giants and obstacles immediately surrounding them, but that is the extent of her knowledge of the situation.

Bandana hears Andi's report and appeal, and weighs it against her knowledge of time constraints, necessary altitude to safely navigate the range, passable paths through the range, the plan the Order is executing at the current time, the expected resistance ahead (assuming there is a lookout reporting to her), the resistance experienced already, etc...

Andi can be 100% certain that the Mechane cannot handle any further bombardment, and she can be 100% correct in that assessment, but Bandana understands more of the bigger picture. That is why the Captain makes these decisions, because they are in the position of having the best of all possible information relevant to the situation.

If Andi were arguing with the Chief Navigator, Andi saying "We can't go any further!" and the Navigator saying "There aren't any other paths!" and both were completely correct, who would be in the "right"? A decision would still need to be made, regardless. In those situations you must defer to the decision making of the Captain. If you do not feel you can do that, then you have no business on yhe vessel. And if you have no business on the vessel, your are solely responsible for all of your actions.

You may be able to sympathise with Andi, but "she done wrong". Her actions undermined the entire trust system a working ship relies upon. Also, the Mechane is now down one Captain and one Chief Engineer.

[Peelee]

Nothing directly to do with Andi, it was a thought experiment following to the expansion of the point Unoriginal asked me to expand on related to this:


However in more direct answer your your query:

No it is not what I was saying - in the scenario you might be wrong and red wire actually does defuse the bomb, I might be right - but everything you know tells you I am wrong.

Andi stated that Bandana was going to get them all killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html), and that the Giants were going to knock them out of the sky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html).

Is she lying, exaggerating, or truthful on her opinion? I don't know - but if she is being truthful than she legitimately believes that Bandana's course of action is going to lead them to a pointless death.

Assume Julio Scoundrel had stayed with the ship, and performed the same actions as Bandana through the mountain pass. Do you think Andi would have still knocked out the captain?

[goodpeople25]

Yeah that example dosen't seem to work as a complete equivalent. It dosen't take into account the comic situation being more than just a matter of singular expertise nor the motivation and bias. The example's result kinda seems reminiscent of tv plots I've encountered but as the intial puplic opinion until the investigation (not necessarily the original one) is done and the actual motivation and circumstances comes to light.

[dancrilis]

Assume Julio Scoundrel had stayed with the ship, and performed the same actions as Bandana through the mountain pass. Do you think Andi would have still knocked out the captain?

No, not only does Julio likely have more hitpoints but Andi I don't believe would have even considered the attempt - but Julio would also likely be down killing giants on a magic carpet.

But that goes back to earlier points about building problems that should have been dealt with in Tinkertown.

[Unoriginal]

Let us take a thought experiment for anyone that wants to give it a go:
1. We are bomb disposal experts.
2. I am your boss.
3. You are more technically skilled.
4. We are faced with a nuclear bomb that will wipe out a major population center and likely trigger a global nuclear conflict.
5. I have decided to cut the red wire after listening to and discounting your input.
6. You are certain* that the red wire will trigger the explosion.
7. You have no idea how to disarm the bomb at this time but everything you know about bombs is that the red wire kills us (and lots of other people).
8. If you have more time you are pretty confident we will all die anyway but there is a chance that you will be able to save us (or others).
.

Except it is not an accurate analogy to what is happening.

It would be more something like:

1. I am a bomb disposal expert, you are an expert helicopter pilot.
2. You are my boss by interim until the regular one comes back from holidays.
3. I do not respect you and do not think you should have this position.
4. We are faced with a bomb inside an helicopter that will wipe out a major population center
5. You think that I should start disposing of the bomb
6. I think that there is no time to handle the bomb, as my expertise tells me we don't have the time for handling it, and that it would be better to fly the helicopter away from the city altogether.
7. You disagree with me, with your expertise as pilot telling you it's unlikely the helicopter could get away fast enough, and use your position of authority to take the decision for both of us, telling me to get to it and stop wasting time.
8. I get angry that you would do such a thing, so I knock you out.
9. I still think I'm right, so I attempt to drive the helicopter away from the city.

Would you argue that I was right?

What people tends to forget is that while Andi is the chief engineer, and that her expertise should not be discarded even though she has not expressed the fact the ship was in immediate danger of destruction due to damage OR started doing her job to repair it, there is the fact that Bandana, aside of one's opinion on her captaining skills, was also the ship's helmsman (one of the three we know are on the airship, with it being implied it's not Felix's main job and the current helmsman described as a rookie in the matter, I think). And she's been shown to be pretty skilled at it. Not to mention that she also has demonstrated she had navigator knowledge, even if might not be her main job.

So, even if Andi was being 100% professional and was arguing purely in her capacity as the chief engineer, why would her expertise trump the one of the ship's helmsman and of someone who has more knowledge of the path than her? And that's not dwelling on how Bandana showed more skills at captaining than Andi.

[SethoMarkus]

Assume Julio Scoundrel had stayed with the ship, and performed the same actions as Bandana through the mountain pass. Do you think Andi would have still knocked out the captain?

To be honest, I don't even think Julio would have gotten the crew paid the 200gp each. Picture it:

"Payment? That's thinking too small! Imagine when word gets out that the Mechane and her crew were responsible for getting the heroes to their destination in time to save the world! Marketing opportunities will literally throw themselves at us! Merchandising! Merchandising! Where the real money from the adventure is made!"

[Mido]

A real military person can talk to this; rank is not the same thing as authority or responsibility. Rank is the armed forces way of indicating that they trust you to be able to handle a certain level of either, but the fact that you are qualified to hold responsibility doesn't mean anything until you actually do. Thus the ship's captain is always senior aboard to all other officers, even visiting admirals, when it concerns the ship itself. Because while the others may hold higher rank, they aren't the ones who have been assigned the duty of commanding the ship.

I always found rank, authority and responsibility to be somewhat synonymous honestly. Pretty good to find out the more accurate description. Much like the time I learned there's a distinct difference between precision and accuracy. Thanks for the info.


To be honest, I don't even think Julio would have gotten the crew paid the 200gp each. Picture it:

"Payment? That's thinking too small! Imagine when word gets out that the Mechane and her crew were responsible for getting the heroes to their destination in time to save the world! Marketing opportunities will literally throw themselves at us! Merchandising! Merchandising! Where the real money from the adventure is made!"

Well, he is a charisma build so that is actually most likely. :smallbiggrin:

[Unoriginal]

Thus the ship's captain is always senior aboard to all other officers, even visiting admirals, when it concerns the ship itself.

I thought it was more because captain was both a rank and a function, and that the person holding the function of captain was the ultimate authority in regard of the ship itself.

[Peelee]

No

Alright, then. So you agree that Andi's issue is with who the captain is, not whether or not she truly believes they would die immediately if they didn't turn off the pass?

[8BitNinja]

Blame the cloud giants...

Q

And that kids, is why you never grow magic beans.

[dancrilis]

Alright, then. So you agree that Andi's issue is with who the captain is, not whether or not she truly believes they would die immediately if they didn't turn off the pass?

A fair take away but not quite accurate.

I think it is largely about trust, if Bandana made herself trusted as captain I think Andi would have followed her - but she didn't and so Andi didn't.

Julio would have been trusted and if Bandana had behaved better she could have been trusted also - but from here panel 5 (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html) Bandana seems to note a problem and her solution ... is to do nothing about it.

She could have expelled Andi, she could have spoken to her in an non-combat situation, she could have done anything but instead she went might as well have went "nah screw it, that sounds like work" because she ignored the issue - and if memory serves it was around there that predictions of mutiny started, we on the forum have much less knowledge of these characters than they do of each other and it was predicted how this was going.

Bandana is not entirely responsibly for the mutiny (in fact Andi holds the lions share of the responsibly as the actual mutinous member) but as a Captain she kindof had it coming for ignoring the crew.

[SethoMarkus]

A fair take away but not quite accurate.

I think it is largely about trust, if Bandana made herself trusted as captain I think Andi would have followed her - but she didn't and so Andi didn't.

Julio would have been trusted and if Bandana had behaved better she could have been trusted also - but from here panel 5 (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html) Bandana seems to note a problem and her solution ... is to do nothing about it.

She could have expelled Andi, she could have spoken to her in an non-combat situation, she could have done anything but instead she went might as well have went "nah screw it, that sounds like work" because she ignored the issue - and if memory serves it was around there that predictions of mutiny started, we on the forum have much less knowledge of these characters than they do of each other and it was predicted how this was going.

Bandana is not entirely responsibly for the mutiny (in fact Andi holds the lions share of the responsibly as the actual mutinous member) but as a Captain she kindof had it coming for ignoring the crew.

Whoa, hold on there.

First, you do not "make" another trust you. You may have to earn their trust, true, but it is always inherently their choice and responsibility. And, as I have said before, and you have agreed with, if Andi could not trust Bandana, she should have left. Plain and simple.

The rest of the crew have shown themselves to trust Bandana. Andi is the only exception that has been shown to us. This isn't a Bandana issue, it is an Andi issue. I agree that if Andi did trust Bandana this probably wouldn't have happened, but that lack of trust is all on Andi. Perhaps under different circumstance, had there been more time, Bandana could have done more to try to earn that trust, but again, the rest of the crew does trust Bandana, so either they are all fools save for Andi, or Andi is the problem and odd one out.

Second, Bandana absolutely did not "have it coming". Especially not for "ignoring the crew". It has been shown time and again that Bandana did not ignore the crew. Perhaps she could have handled things better. Andi definitely did not agree with Bandana as Captain, but it wasn't because Bandana ignored her. It is because Bandana did not do what Andi expected her to do. It is because Bandana did not do what Andi wanted her to do.

Don't warp this into "Bandana didn't listen!" because she absolutely did. You can certainly have the opinion that Bandana was a fool to not heed Andi's advice, but you cannot say that Bandana did not listen to (Andi included) and ignore them. That is demonstrably false.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Can we shelve this discussion? No one's going to convince dancrillis of anything, and I think most of the rest of us are just waiting to see how many people are going to get killed because of Andi and whether or not she'll live long enough to face a Captain's Mast with Julio.

Besides, it negates the point of the Ignore List if people keep quoting the person you decided was just trolling everyone and blocked.

[dancrilis]

Whoa, hold on there.

First, you do not "make" another trust you. You may have to earn their trust, true, but it is always inherently their choice and responsibility. And, as I have said before, and you have agreed with, if Andi could not trust Bandana, she should have left. Plain and simple.
Sure.


The rest of the crew have shown themselves to trust Bandana.
Can you show me that please?
Note I am not talking about shown themselves to be indifferent or anything I mean actual trust (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:+trust&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gws_rd=cr&ei=iXGeWKH0OuzdgAa3g4HgBg) (using the nouns).



Don't warp this into "Bandana didn't listen!" because she absolutely did. You can certainly have the opinion that Bandana was a fool to not heed Andi's advice, but you cannot say that Bandana did not listen to (Andi included) and ignore them. That is demonstrably false.
Here between panel 5 and panel 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html) she didn't listen, "the ship is falling apart, but ..." Bandana didn't listen to the 'but', it might have been relevant.

Bandana did what many bosses do* - she pretended to listen and take in the info - this can be annoying but can at the same time be great for business, listen to everyone tell them what they want to hear and do what is most profitable** (Bandana would likely be a great captain for a luxury yacht).

*In my experience, some are great at it and cause no issues but bad ones cause issues.
**I am simplifying.

[Keltest]

Here between panel 5 and panel 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html) she didn't listen, "the ship is falling apart, but ..." Bandana didn't listen to the 'but', it might have been relevant.

Bandana did what many bosses do* - she pretended to listen and take in the info - this can be annoying but can at the same time be great for business, listen to everyone tell them what they want to hear and do what is most profitable** (Bandana would likely be a great captain for a luxury yacht).

*In my experience, some are great at it and cause no issues but bad ones cause issues.
**I am simplifying.

What, exactly, do you think it was Andi was going to say there? Because it was almost certainly something derogatory towards Bandana, based on the context of the sentence.

And after answering that, what new options would be opened up to Bandana by said comment? because she is not obligated to listen to Andi whine at her (while shirking her duties, no less) while not actually contributing anything.

[dancrilis]

What, exactly, do you think it was Andi was going to say there?
I don't know she didn't say it.
It could be anything from 'but little miss junior captain here won't listen to me' to 'but little miss junior captain here doesn't know that we have an AC below, 10 Frost Giants have a to hit of +9 with rocks, we have 10 hit points left, they do 2d6+9 damage per rock, meaning we need to avoid any more than one of them hitting us, which given that they hit on a 2 is statistically unlikely' we just do not know what she was going to say.



And after answering that, what new options would be opened up to Bandana by said comment? because she is not obligated to listen to Andi whine at her (while shirking her duties, no less) while not actually contributing anything.
Andi was there to offer input on the damage all over the ship and advise on such status (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html), new options would be to turn around (offered - they would have less giants to deal with as they were less than half way), or to see about charting a new course (which might fall under heroic piracy stuff for ambusing).

For all we know Andi has taken them on a perpendicular course to the one they were on - not noted as it offers no real time and is harder to reach, but good for piracy (and bypassing giants) - we don't know yet.

[Keltest]

I don't know she didn't say it.
It could be anything from 'but little miss junior captain here won't listen to me' to 'but little miss junior captain here doesn't know that we have an AC below, 10 Frost Giants have a to hit of +9 with rocks, we have 10 hit points left, they do 2d6+9 damage per rock, meaning we need to avoid any more than one of them hitting us, which given that they hit on a 2 is statistically unlikely' we just do not know what she was going to say.


Andi was there to offer input on the damage all over the ship and advise on such status (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html), new options would be to turn around (offered - they would have less giants to deal with as they were less than half way), or to see about charting a new course (which might fall under heroic piracy stuff for ambusing).

For all we know Andi has taken them on a perpendicular course to the one they were on - not noted as it offers no real time and is harder to reach, but good for piracy (and bypassing giants) - we don't know yet.

Advising Bandana on the status of the ship is all well and good, but unless she has unlocked a new capability for the ship to get them out of the situation, she shouldn't hang around afterwards unless Bandana specifically asks for her opinion on the plausibility of a specific maneuver.

You do not chart a new course in the middle of a mountain pass. Period. Mountains don't work like that. Andi evidently doesn't know that, but Bandana does. And as you say, "turn around" was already offered and rejected as an option. Andi explicitly does not have any insight as to the actual direction they should be taking anyway.

"Do something different!" is not an option.

[Peelee]

Can we shelve this discussion? No one's going to convince dancrillis of anything, and I think most of the rest of us are just waiting to see how many people are going to get killed because of Andi and whether or not she'll live long enough to face a Captain's Mast with Julio.

Besides, it negates the point of the Ignore List if people keep quoting the person you decided was just trolling everyone and blocked.
Do you have anything you wish to discuss?

A fair take away but not quite accurate.

I think it is largely about trust, if Bandana made herself trusted as captain I think Andi would have followed her - but she didn't and so Andi didn't.

Julio would have been trusted and if Bandana had behaved better she could have been trusted also - but from here panel 5 (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html) Bandana seems to note a problem and her solution ... is to do nothing about it.

She could have expelled Andi, she could have spoken to her in an non-combat situation, she could have done anything but instead she went might as well have went "nah screw it, that sounds like work" because she ignored the issue - and if memory serves it was around there that predictions of mutiny started, we on the forum have much less knowledge of these characters than they do of each other and it was predicted how this was going.

Bandana is not entirely responsibly for the mutiny (in fact Andi holds the lions share of the responsibly as the actual mutinous member) but as a Captain she kindof had it coming for ignoring the crew.

Wait, you're saying that Bandana should have kicked Andi off the ship because she made a snappy comment? This, in your estimation, is a reasonable reaction?

She's an acting captain, not a freaking dictator. Booting Andi would have harmed her relationship with the entire rest of the crew.

Also, you have no proof that anyone other than Andi didn't trust Bandana. Certainly nobody seems to think that Andi knocking her out was the right thing to do.

[Chei]

Can we shelve this discussion? No one's going to convince dancrillis of anything, and I think most of the rest of us are just waiting to see how many people are going to get killed because of Andi and whether or not she'll live long enough to face a Captain's Mast with Julio.

Besides, it negates the point of the Ignore List if people keep quoting the person you decided was just trolling everyone and blocked.

Yeah, no, you've got a good point. He's declared himself immovable so I blocked him and moved on.

Alright, regarding Roy and those giants. We don't know how many barbarian levels those giants might have, but has anyone on that geek thread figured out how long it should take a fighter of Roy's approximate level to down them?

Edit: So like, he'll probably kill the dude giant barb first, right, because he hasn't talked at all. If they really are barbarians, the woman might rage off of that. That's still not really enough to down someone like Roy, though. Her best bet is to ignore him and trash the ship.

Are we thinking these giants have fulfilled their narrative purpose and are gonna die now? They sliced the balloon and killed three of the crew, further panicking Andi. Does anyone see another way they could hamper the ship without causing outright failure?

[Snails]

Let us take a thought experiment for anyone that wants to give it a go:
1. We are bomb disposal experts.
2. I am your boss.
3. You are more technically skilled.
4. We are faced with a nuclear bomb that will wipe out a major population center and likely trigger a global nuclear conflict.
5. I have decided to cut the red wire after listening to and discounting your input.
6. You are certain* that the red wire will trigger the explosion.
7. You have no idea how to disarm the bomb at this time but everything you know about bombs is that the red wire kills us (and lots of other people).
8. If you have more time you are pretty confident we will all die anyway but there is a chance that you will be able to save us (or others).


I would just start cutting wires quickly and then smash everything I could with a hammer, because I know enough about nuclear weapons to recognize that they are designed to be hard to explode correctly without the exact magic keys saying it is time to explode, not easy to accidentally detonate like in the movies. There is a very practical reason: if damaged nukes were liable to go "rogue" and detonate, then in the middle of hostilities random battle damage or a random accident could cause you to nuke your own country. Would it be okay if a USAF training accident nuked Tulsa? Probably not.

With respect to Andi, I recognize that her panic is not entirely baseless. However, it is also obvious that only in Andi's mind does Andi possess any kind of special talent outside of fixing a ship. Her shipmates do not defer to her or show interest in her theories, other than the "hey, someone might owe us money" idea at the most superficial level. Julio did not think she was anything special. Nor does Bandanna.

Andi thinks much of Andi. She is a choir of one, singing her own praises. Heck, even Andi seems to recognize that others do not think much of her, as she never even tries to form a clique of loyalist who would at least politely chat up Andi's wonderful ideas.

Furthermore Andi's habit of unnecessarily tying her complaints to her phantom superior ability are tantamount to proof she is too wrapped up in her emotions to be competent as a captain.

[Snails]

What is going to happen?

I am going whole hog and putting my chits on: "Andi gets the entire crew of the Mechane pointlessly butchered, except for Bandanna who the Order manages to save."

[happycrow]

I think something folks are missing is that The Giant has, historically, had a TON more planned story than people expected, with matters people suspect to be simply interlude-ish turning out to be quite important. I strongly suspect this is not simply disaster disaster, limp barely to dwarven lands, yay.

I rather suspect that there'll be more narrative, and more narrative purpose, to where they are now. I have no legitimate reason to suspect it, but I do.

[Chei]

I think something folks are missing is that The Giant has, historically, had a TON more planned story than people expected, with matters people suspect to be simply interlude-ish turning out to be quite important. I strongly suspect this is not simply disaster disaster, limp barely to dwarven lands, yay.

I rather suspect that there'll be more narrative, and more narrative purpose, to where they are now. I have no legitimate reason to suspect it, but I do.

Well, one thing we know to a serious degree about the way The Giant writes characters is that he does not reward them, in a narrative sense, for their delusions. Not even The Order is safe from that. They either confront or overcome their delusions, or they face serious consequences. This whole vampire arc is actually the first time Durkon has really had to question his own beliefs and self-image. He's pretty much the last member of The Order to do so.

So in that vein, Andi is in for serious hurt, one way or the other.

[yldenfrei]

Well, one thing we know to a serious degree about the way The Giant writes characters is that he does not reward them, in a narrative sense, for their delusions. Not even The Order is safe from that. They either confront or overcome their delusions, or they face serious consequences. This whole vampire arc is actually the first time Durkon has really had to question his own beliefs and self-image. He's pretty much the last member of The Order to do so.

So in that vein, Andi is in for serious hurt, one way or the other.

True. The only reason I suffer Andi's presence at this point is so I could see her OH CRAP face as everything inevitably crashes and burns. Not counting on the "burns" part though, what with Mechane being helium based and all.

[danielxcutter]

True. The only reason I suffer Andi's presence at this point is so I could see her OH CRAP face as everything inevitably crashes and burns. Not counting on the "burns" part though, what with Mechane being helium based and all.

The balloon is helium based.

The hull is wood based.

Oh, and that quote brings back memories - a Korean indie game used that as the arc words.

[Chei]

True. The only reason I suffer Andi's presence at this point is so I could see her OH CRAP face as everything inevitably crashes and burns. Not counting on the "burns" part though, what with Mechane being helium based and all.

Like, I wouldn't even say I suffer Andi's presence. I see what she is, and see what she's in for, and I want to follow her narrative arc to the end.

I have BEEN the person that has been passed over for promotion. I've been the person that worked a harder job for lower pay. I didn't wrench anybody over the head for it, but I was passive-aggressive. I was counter-productive. I worked my ass off until, like Andi, I reached a position that was considered indispensable.

I know what happens when someone with a bad attitude goes through that. I wanna see it happen in fiction and compare it with my own experience.

But I didn't quit when the "company" was going through a rough patch. I can at least say that for myself.

[SilverCacaobean]

Like, I wouldn't even say I suffer Andi's presence. I see what she is, and see what she's in for, and I want to follow her narrative arc to the end.

I have BEEN the person that has been passed over for promotion. I've been the person that worked a harder job for lower pay. I didn't wrench anybody over the head for it, but I was passive-aggressive. I was counter-productive. I worked my ass off until, like Andi, I reached a position that was considered indispensable.

I know what happens when someone with a bad attitude goes through that. I wanna see it happen in fiction and compare it with my own experience.

But I didn't quit when the "company" was going through a rough patch. I can at least say that for myself.

Hey, quit all you like, just don't wrench your (actually quite competent) boss on the noggin, thereby dooming your co-workers to a horrible, agonizing death in the eternal ice of the northern peaks.

Is that too much to ask?:smalltongue:

[Chei]

Hey, quit all you like, just don't wrench your (actually quite competent) boss on the noggin, thereby dooming your co-workers to a horrible, agonizing death in the eternal ice of the northern peaks.

Is that too much to ask?:smalltongue:

It's getting there. I mean, a big part of the Mechane's problems are that the crew are too invested in the ship itself, and Julio in particular. Andi is obviously in love with the ship itself, and she's very invested in its well-being. In fact, it's reached the point where she won't accept anyone else as Captain because she's that invested.

[SilverCacaobean]

It's getting there. I mean, a big part of the Mechane's problems are that the crew are too invested in the ship itself, and Julio in particular. Andi is obviously in love with the ship itself, and she's very invested in its well-being. In fact, it's reached the point where she won't accept anyone else as Captain because she's that invested.

Well, I'm not sure that I'd go so far as to say that the crew is too invested in the ship(I'd just say they're not invested in the mission) but I certainly agree about Andi. But there is still something that is not explained by that. What's her problem here? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html) There was no indication yet that the ship would even be in danger. There must be more to it. I mean apart from pettiness. If there isn't, she has reached Nale levels of petty, so I kinda hope there is more to it.

[Unoriginal]

What's her problem here? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html)

Her problem is, and always has been, that Bandana is captaining. Or if you want the specific problem here, Andi doesn't want to serve as transportation for big shot heroes.

[8BitNinja]

Let us take a thought experiment for anyone that wants to give it a go:
1. We are bomb disposal experts.
2. I am your boss.
3. You are more technically skilled.
4. We are faced with a nuclear bomb that will wipe out a major population center and likely trigger a global nuclear conflict.
5. I have decided to cut the red wire after listening to and discounting your input.
6. You are certain* that the red wire will trigger the explosion.
7. You have no idea how to disarm the bomb at this time but everything you know about bombs is that the red wire kills us (and lots of other people).
8. If you have more time you are pretty confident we will all die anyway but there is a chance that you will be able to save us (or others).

*Certain meaning not 'you think' but actual knowledge based on expertise that I do not share.

Do you stop me cutting the red wire? Or do you follow the chain of command?

Note that if 7 is 'kills us (but no one else)' than yes I would regard it as admirable for you to follow the chain of command and let me to save the city and prevent a global conflict, but if you think my actions will certainly result in the deaths of millions and likely the deaths of billions than I* couldn't really fault you for trying a different approach than merely nodding along with my decision.

*Actually I would fault you as I would likely be convinced I was right before cutting the wire - but if I was operating as a neutral observer of these event I (as the observer) could not fault you.

Why would someone hook up a nuke to a timed trigger? Nuclear footballs exist for a reason.

Is this Counter Strike?

[Kish]

If there isn't, she has reached Nale levels of petty, so I kinda hope there is more to it.
Nale would have planned a ridiculous scheme to slaughter the entire crew and scuttle the ship to punish Julio for not putting him in charge. Comparatively, Andi's quite sane. Petty, yes, but sane.

[Riftwolf]

Why would someone hook up a nuke to a timed trigger? Nuclear footballs exist for a reason.

Is this Counter Strike?

This made me think 'John Travolta did it'. Which doesn't hold up as an argument; as a rule, 'dont do what John Travolta does' is one I could live by.

[Peelee]

Why would someone hook up a nuke to a timed trigger? Nuclear footballs exist for a reason.

Is this Counter Strike?

Because how else can the hero defuse it exactly one second?

[goodpeople25]

Why? Using codes or whatever can be just as or even more dramatic. Last second gun shot or takedown before the commands are sent just off the top of my head. Bomb defusing I believe often uses the drama that the hero is staying with the bomb to defuse it, a nuke means they're most likely freaking dead anyway.