Superiority Dice + Maneuvers

[Gignere]

Can you use more than one maneuver/superiority dice on a single attack? For example you use Trip and rolled lowish so you decide to spend another superiority dice on precision. I think you can because I don't see where there is a limit but hoping someone else can confirm.

[bid]

Can you use more than one maneuver/superiority dice on a single attack? For example you use Trip and rolled lowish so you decide to spend another superiority dice on precision. I think you can because I don't see where there is a limit but hoping someone else can confirm.
Dixit Combat Superiority / Maneuvers: "You can only use one maneuver per attack."

[Vaz]

UA Gothic Monster Hunter Fighter allows you to specifically spend 2 Superiority Dice when you spend it on a damage, which also Maxes Out Both rolls against supernatural opponents.

[Gignere]

Thanks I read that section three times and missed that line. But now that you point it out I see it, way to fail a perception check.

[Addaran]

Can you use more than one maneuver/superiority dice on a single attack? For example you use Trip and rolled lowish so you decide to spend another superiority dice on precision. I think you can because I don't see where there is a limit but hoping someone else can confirm.

You can't miss Trip. You decide to use the superiority dice after you've successfully hit. Most maneuvers are this way. =)

[The Ship's dog]

You can't miss Trip. You decide to use the superiority dice after you've successfully hit. Most maneuvers are this way. =)

In fact, only some of the maneuvers allow you to use them after you roll the attack. Also the target of Trip has to make a Strength saving throw so you can fail a Trip Attack.

[Fishyninja]

In fact, only some of the maneuvers allow you to use them after you roll the attack. Also the target of Trip has to make a Strength saving throw so you can fail a Trip Attack.

Indeed. My BM uses Trip quite frequently (especially on the bigger enemies) however I always thought Dex would have been a more appropriate save as you are trying to dodge the trip action.
I get that strength represents the enemy rooting to their position and potentially blocking the trip too.
I dunno.

[Alatar]

...I always thought Dex would have been a more appropriate save as you are trying to dodge the trip action.

Shove, which can result in a trip, is a contest between Athletics vs. Athletics or Acrobatics, target's choice, but they went with Strength for the Trip Attack Maneuver. I guess they figured that melee types, more often than not, are Strength based. Fair is fair.

Shield Master is a nice pick for a battlemaster. Trip with a bonus action shove, with no superiority die expended. Do it at the start of the turn to get advantage on attacks. Then, after the attacks, step away, draw the opportunity attack from the prone target, and when he misses because of disadvantage, hit him with a riposte. Nice action economy, and you are not standing nose to nose when it's his turn.

Alternately, if your opponent is a particularly big, strong fellow, attack first, tag him with a Menacing Attack. Then tag him with a Shield Master bonus shove to the ground. The frightened condition conferred from Menacing Attack gives the target disadvantage on ability checks. Move away, draw the disadvantaged opportunity attack, hit him with a riposte. Move away at an angle to the order of battle, and nod toward your buddy the champion. "Check it out, no shield." Champions are good bleeders. They are fond of the Tough feat.

[Fishyninja]

Shove, which can result in a trip, is a contest between Athletics vs. Athletics or Acrobatics, target's choice, but they went with Strength for the Trip Attack Maneuver. I guess they figured that melee types, more often than not, are Strength based. Fair is fair.

Shield Master is a nice pick for a battlemaster. Trip with a bonus action shove, with no superiority die expended. Do it at the start of the turn to get advantage on attacks. Then, after the attacks, step away, draw the opportunity attack from the prone target, and when he misses because of disadvantage, hit him with a riposte. Nice action economy, and you are not standing nose to nose when it's his turn.

Alternately, if your opponent is a particularly big, strong fellow, attack first, tag him with a Menacing Attack. Then tag him with a Shield Master bonus shove to the ground. The frightened condition conferred from Menacing Attack gives the target disadvantage on ability checks. Move away, draw the disadvantaged opportunity attack, hit him with a riposte. Move away at an angle to the order of battle, and nod toward your buddy the champion. "Check it out, no shield." Champions are good bleeders. They are fond of the Tough feat.
This is actually how I am planning on playing my BM.

[Arkhios]

Indeed. My BM uses Trip quite frequently (especially on the bigger enemies) however I always thought Dex would have been a more appropriate save as you are trying to dodge the trip action.
I get that strength represents the enemy rooting to their position and potentially blocking the trip too.
I dunno.

You kinda answered to your issue yourself. Dex save would make more sense if you were trying to avoid the trip. However, Trip Attack has already connected via being hit by an attack before the maneuver is used; no chance to avoid it anymore, just resist the attempt, hence the Strength save.

In comparison, a shove is an active attempt where both the attacker and the defender are still in motion in regards to the action. The defender may choose to beef it up (Str), or try to avoid it (Dex).

[Fishyninja]

You kinda answered to your issue yourself.
It's a racial trait.

[Arkhios]

Pardon me for a slight derail.

Can you, or can you not, use Combat Superiority Maneuvers in conjunction with Unarmed Strikes?

[Vaz]

Indeed. My BM uses Trip quite frequently (especially on the bigger enemies) however I always thought Dex would have been a more appropriate save as you are trying to dodge the trip action.
I get that strength represents the enemy rooting to their position and potentially blocking the trip too.
I dunno.
You can't dodge something you've already been hit by. It is what makes the BM resource using maneuvre more effective than the free one.

@Arkhios; maneuvres specify that it's a Weapon Attack, but the errata'd PDF I have states that Unarmed Strikes are not meant to be in the weapon list.

[Fishyninja]

Pardon me for a slight derail.

Can you, or can you not, use Combat Superiority Maneuvers in conjunction with Unarmed Strikes?

hmmm an interesting point many of them use the term weapon attack (There are a few melee attacks) the question is do fists count as weapons and how does RAW interpret it:


Commanders Strike: Attack Action
Disarming Attack: Weapon Attack
Distracting Attack: Weapon Attack
Goading Attack: Weapon Attack
Lunging Attack: Melee Weapin Attack
Maneuvering Attack: Weapon Attack
Menacing Attack: Weapon Attack
Precision Attack: Weapon Attack
Pushing Attack: Weapon Attack
Riposte: Melee Weapon Attack
Sweeping Attack: Melee Weapon Attack
Trip Attack: Weapon Attack

[Arkhios]

hmmm an interesting point many of them use the term weapon attack (There are a few melee attacks) the question is do fists count as weapons and how does RAW interpret it:


Commanders Strike: Attack Action
Disarming Attack: Weapon Attack
Distracting Attack: Weapon Attack
Goading Attack: Weapon Attack
Lunging Attack: Melee Weapin Attack
Maneuvering Attack: Weapon Attack
Menacing Attack: Weapon Attack
Precision Attack: Weapon Attack
Pushing Attack: Weapon Attack
Riposte: Melee Weapon Attack
Sweeping Attack: Melee Weapon Attack
Trip Attack: Weapon Attack



Actually, I just recalled that an Unarmed Strike is a melee weapon attack, but not an attack with a weapon ... so yes, yes you can... Cool! (hello there, battle master + Tavern brawler, a.k.a. "Brawler"!)

PS. Unarmed Strikes are more than just "Fists", by the way :smalltongue:

Here's the relevant rule from Player's Handbook Errata (https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata-V1.pdf)


Melee Attacks (p. 195). The rule on unarmed strikes should read as follows:
“Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow (none of which count as weapons). On a hit, an unarmed strike deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier. You are proficient with your unarmed strikes.”


note the underlined and especially italic parts.

[Fishyninja]

Actually, I just recalled that an Unarmed Strike is a melee weapon attack, but not an attack with a weapon ... so yes, yes you can... Cool! (hello there, battle master + Tavern brawler, a.k.a. "Brawler"!)

PS. Unarmed Strikes are more than just "Fists", by the way :smalltongue:

Of course, Elbows, Feet, Knees etc. Could be an interesting build for a Monk MC too. Imagine a Hulking rippling muscled Monk tearing up a tavern :P

[Arkhios]

Of course, Elbows, Feet, Knees etc. Could be an interesting build for a Monk MC too. Imagine a Hulking rippling muscled Monk tearing up a tavern :P

No need to be hulking and muscled. Combat Superiority save DC is based either on your strength or dexterity modifier (your choice)!

[Fishyninja]

No need to be hulking and muscled. Combat Superiority save DC is based either on your strength or dexterity modifier (your choice)!

Come on let me imagine my gentle giant (until he gets a brew in him) in peace! :smalltongue:

[Monavic]

Pardon me for a slight derail.

Can you, or can you not, use Combat Superiority Maneuvers in conjunction with Unarmed Strikes?

Unarmed attacks do count as weapon attacks so you can use them for superiority maneuvers. Note that they do not count as weapons just as a weapon attack, so things like dueling style, GWM or defensive duelist are out.

[Arkhios]

Come on let me imagine my gentle giant (until he gets a brew in him) in peace! :smalltongue:

Fine, fine, have your fun! :smallbiggrin:

Going off of that train of thought, Paladin with (or without) Tavern Brawler could go out running and shouting "Butt-kicking for GOODness" and then use divine smite and smite spells to deliver serious butt-hurt with a kick! :smallbiggrin:

[djreynolds]

Unarmed attacks do count as weapon attacks so you can use them for superiority maneuvers. Note that they do not count as weapons just as a weapon attack, so things like dueling style, GWM or defensive duelist are out.

I thought they errata that they do count as weapon attacks but are not light or finesse


WriteOnlyMemory ‎@JoshGeurink

@JeremyECrawford I'm confused by unarmed strikes. Errata says they don't count as weapons, rules updates say they're melee weapon attacks.


Jeremy Crawford ‎@JeremyECrawford

From PH errata: An unarmed strike is a nonweapon [you can't silver a fist] that can make a melee weapon attack. #DnD https://twitter.com/JoshGeurink/status/666268136069578755 …

[Gignere]

Thanks for the first answer here is a second question can you use trip just for the extra damage say on a huge or gargantuan creature that cannot be tripped?

[Arkhios]

Thanks for the first answer here is a second question can you use trip just for the extra damage say on a huge or gargantuan creature that cannot be tripped?

Yes. The trip is wasted, but you'd still do the extra damage. (I think).

[Vaz]

Yes. You roll damage, and then force the save on large or smaller. Same with Push.

You'll possibly get more out of Commanders Strike, Distracting Strike, Goading Strike or Menacing Attack in such situations though; remembering that Sneak Attack is only 1/turn, not 1/round, and so triggers on Commanders Strike (nudge nudge)

[Gignere]

Yes. You roll damage, and then force the save on large or smaller. Same with Push.

You'll possibly get more out of Commanders Strike, Distracting Strike, Goading Strike or Menacing Attack in such situations though; remembering that Sneak Attack is only 1/turn, not 1/round, and so triggers on Commanders Strike (nudge nudge)

Only level 6 and the three maneuvers I chose are precise, riposte and trip. So for extra damage dice it is only trip or bust.

[Vaz]

Fair! That said, if you are struggling to deal damage, you could easily drop Fighter at 8th, pick up go for Paladin at 9th to pick up smites and Martial Adept as a Feat. You don't get D10's, but the smites can make up for your Superiority Dice.

No D10's, but have 7 maneuvres and 6 dice. You do miss the 3rd attack and Indomitable but Paladin can help on the save front.

[Addaran]

Only level 6 and the three maneuvers I chose are precise, riposte and trip. So for extra damage dice it is only trip or bust.

For me it was disarm or bust. By the end of the game, everyone was used to me "trying" to disarm the hydra... 4 times in a row for super nova damage. ;)

[Alatar]

This is actually how I am planning on playing my BM.

I just played a battlemaster through 11th level. Loads of fun.

Another Shield Master sequence: prone your target, admonish him for grovelling on his belly, then walk away to enage another target with a menacing attack. Riposte the first guy with advantage, or the second, without. Be sure to step away from the menaced target if you can. Because he's frightened of you, he cannot move toward you on his turn. Same action economy, but you've debilitated two opponents rather than one. Battlemasters are very effective defenders without needing to soak up damage.

I tended to dump superiority dice in this manner in round 1. Hurt them early and impede their ability to hit back. It sets the tone for the entire encounter. At our table, we average three combats per day with short rests in between, which really favors this practice.

The only sad side of knocking opponents prone is the fickleness of the Initiative order. If your target just had his turn prior to yours, he'll be on his back for a whole round, which will be a state of affairs quite felicitous to your melee companions. But if he goes right after you in the initiative order, he'll stand up right after he's been knocked down.

The Delay was removed from D&D, ostensibly because manipulating the Initiative order was too meta. It's a game mechanic to be suffered, not played. Never mind that Alert feat. So now we are left to choose our trip targets based on the Initiative order, which is just as meta, but less effective.

[Fishyninja]

I just played a battlemaster through 11th level. Loads of fun.

Another Shield Master sequence: prone your target, admonish him for grovelling on his belly, then walk away to enage another target with a menacing attack. Riposte the first guy with advantage, or the second, without. Same action economy, but you've debilitated two opponents rather than one. Battlemasters are very effective defenders without needing to soak up damage.

The only sad side of knocking opponents prone is the fickleness of the Initiative order. If your target just had his turn prior to yours, he'll be on his back for a whole round, which will be a state of affairs quite felicitous to your melee companions. But if he goes right after you in the initiative order, he'll stand up right after he's been knocked down.

The Delay was removed from D&D, ostensibly because manipulating the Initiative order was too meta. It's a game mechanic to be suffered, not played. Never mind that Alert feat. So now we are left to choose our trip targets based on the Initiative order, which is just as meta, but less effective.

True but don't forget getting up from prone takes haf your movement. One other idea I am tempted to play with is to diarm enemies where possible then use a free action to kick the weapon away from them.
Then they have two options, fight me unarmed, or go get the weapon and invoke an AOO.

[Gignere]

True but don't forget getting up from prone takes haf your movement. One other idea I am tempted to play with is to diarm enemies where possible then use a free action to kick the weapon away from them.
Then they have two options, fight me unarmed, or go get the weapon and invoke an AOO.

Out of dozens of fight in current game we fought only 3 mobs that were worth it/able to be disarmed. My next two maneuvers I planned for are push and menacing.

[Fishyninja]

Out of dozens of fight in current game we fought only 3 mobs that were worth it/able to be disarmed. My next two maneuvers I planned for are push and menacing.

Hmmm we seem to be fighting hordes of low level bandits at the moment the odd drow. But we'll see :)

[Alatar]

True but don't forget getting up from prone takes haf your movement. One other idea I am tempted to play with is to disarm enemies where possible then use a free action to kick the weapon away from them.
Then they have two options, fight me unarmed, or go get the weapon and invoke an AOO.

I took Disarming Attack late and never got to use it. My DM generally favors monsters over npc opponents.

The fact that the weapon drops in the opponent's space means you need a followup 5-ft. shove or Pushing Attack or a cooperative DM in order to use your interact-with-an-object to kick the weapon away. You may draw an opportunity attack when you invade his space, though it will be an unarmed attack; well worth it.

Burning reactions becomes a good habit. It frees up the middle for the lads. After a while, I started stepping away even if my prone attempt or menacing attack failed. A single opportunity attack is less damage than a full round claw-claw-bite, which may fall to the party champion if you pick the right place to stand. And he often misses you with that AOO. The monsters usually miss. It's baked into the game. Then you hit back.

I also think Disarming Attack is a maneuver better suited to a heavy weapon guy, who can just pick up the dropped weapon and then toss it behind him or stow it on his next turn.

My first three maneuvers were Trip Attack, Menacing attack and Riposte. They remained the maneuvers I most relied on for the life of the character. Pushing Attack was rarely useful, but when it was, it was extremely useful, over-the-edge-of-the-cliff useful. Evasive Footwork was a fun one. Dancing in full plate.

[Vogonjeltz]

Thanks for the first answer here is a second question can you use trip just for the extra damage say on a huge or gargantuan creature that cannot be tripped?

Might as well just use a different maneuver though.

Menacing Attack, Maneuvering, Distracting, Disarming, Goading would all be (possibly) better choices if the target is invalid for Trip Attack.

On that note, why does Sweeping Attack even exist? To avoid overkill on a single target? I don't get the use-cases that make it worth taking over any other maneuver.

[The Ship's dog]

Currently I'm playing a Goliath Battlemaster. Now, Goliaths are all about fair play, if someone dropped their weapons, then my character would as well and they would go at it with their fists. Because of this fair play, to keep up with character roleplay, I have not picked up Trip Attack or Disarming Strike. Instead, my maneuvres are Menacing Attack. Distracting Strike and Riposte. I feel like this is a good mix of utility/enabling and punish.

[Fishyninja]

Snip

I have a very forgiving DM, if you can logically explain the action without it being game breaking and you can describe it in an interesting fashion then he ok's it.

His ruling is I can kick the weapon away from an enemy if I have had at least 1 round of normal combat with them.
He also likes to offer inspiriation for interesting goads. My personal favourite I have used is 'You couldn't pour water out of a boot even if there were instructions on the heel'.