Looking For A-Hole Spell

[Scorponok]

I DM a campaign with a fair amount of homebrew. Among those is a creature whose leather gives +4 to damage while charging, and another creature whose leather gives +5 to attack while charging. One player decided to make a mantle of accurate charging out of the first creature's leather, and pants of hurt charging out of the leather of the second creature. He is level 3 and armed with a spear.

I don't mind letting 'em have these actually, but sometimes it's a bit much, especially when he is charging from one enemy to the other and getting +5 atk and +4 damage each time. Of course, the other melee players are also seeking the leather of these creatures to do the same thing.

What I'm seeking is a low level spell that can stop their charge, like a spell that would raise or lower the ground by 5 feet or so, just enough to negate the charges some of the time. Is there such a spell? Even a 5 ft. wall might work. I can see the fun in this as a player, so I don't want to grief them to the point of their equipment being next to useless, and I like that melee guys get to shine at lower levels, but there may be times I need this to not happen with lower level tactics.

[Vaz]

Don't give them something then take it away. You've already screwed the pooch I'm afraid.

[Telonius]

Grease can ruin a charge. Another thing that's super-simple (and not even magic): caltrops.

[Scorponok]

Don't give them something then take it away. You've already screwed the pooch I'm afraid.

I'm not taking it away. I'm asking for tactics that can sometimes negate this.


Grease can ruin a charge. Another thing that's super-simple (and not even magic): caltrops.

Thanks, this is what I'm looking for! :)

[BaronDoctor]

Blockade from Complete Scoundrel seems like exactly what you're looking for.

[daremetoidareyo]

A bag of marbles and a kobold assistant to waste it's one standard action on throwing them.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Anything that creates difficult terrain, a physical barrier or blocks line-of-sight. The spell Block, creates a 5x5x5 wooden block. Entangle creates difficult terrain and can just full-stop movement. A variety of Wall of X spells work to varying degrees. Some are better as deterrents than out-right denials. Gust of Wind check's medium sized creatures (meaning they can't move). Slow forces them to only be able to use their regular movement for charges (instead of double).

[Vaz]

I'm not taking it away. I'm asking for tactics that can sometimes negate this.

Well, er yes. You've given them the ability to do something, and now asking to stop how to do that.

Flying, Grease, pit traps, Corners, water and other difficult terrain are all ways to stop chargers.

I'd recommend not being too liberal with something in order of its magnitude in the first place and then taking it away.

[Scorponok]

Well, er yes. You've given them the ability to do something, and now asking to stop how to do that.

I'd recommend not being too liberal with something in order of its magnitude in the first place and then taking it away.

Your definition of 'taking it away' must be different from everyone else's. :(

Taking it away means it becomes permanently unusable. Unless you as a player think every encounter must be on a flat surface, with zero terrain features, there's always going to be something that makes a charge not work exactly as you want it to. Oh look a tree - the DM is taking away my charge bonus. Oh look, rough uneven terrain - the DM is taking away my charge bonus. An Entangle spell must also be taking away the equipment my DM gave me - by your definition.


Flying, Grease, pit traps, Corners, water and other difficult terrain are all ways to stop chargers.

I'll probably just put more objects like tree stumps and rocks in the way. Aside from a few trees here and there, the players have been playing a lot on pretty flat surface. A forest should definitely have more of these features anyways.

[Scorponok]

Blockade from Complete Scoundrel seems like exactly what you're looking for.

This is actually perfect! And a swift action to cast too. I can also see it being useful for taking cover behind.

[Uncle Pine]

Halt (PHBII) has the advantage of being an immediate action to cast and the disadvantage of being negated with a Will save. It does exactly what the name implies.

[weckar]

Maybe not 'stopping' chargers, but many weapons can be set against a charge for mucho extra damage. There's even a feat (I think in Heroes of Battle?) to do it with ranged weapons.

[Vaz]

Your definition of 'taking it away' must be different from everyone else's. :(

Taking it away means it becomes permanently unusable. Unless you as a player think every encounter must be on a flat surface, with zero terrain features, there's always going to be something that makes a charge not work exactly as you want it to. Oh look a tree - the DM is taking away my charge bonus. Oh look, rough uneven terrain - the DM is taking away my charge bonus. An Entangle spell must also be taking away the equipment my DM gave me - by your definition.
Sorry, I get it, you're the DM, you're perfect and know everything about what you're doing. Sorry you were too busy being perfect to understand that making a suggestion about not giving out OP stuff then not going, 'oh ****, this is too much' and preventing its use is decent advice.


I'll probably just put more objects like tree stumps and rocks in the way. Aside from a few trees here and there, the players have been playing a lot on pretty flat surface. A forest should definitely have more of these features anyways.
Indeed. I didn't think to mention difficult terrain because I thought that was too obvious.

More fool me.

[AnachroNinja]

Sorry, I get it, you're the DM, you're perfect and know everything about what you're doing. Sorry you were too busy being perfect to understand that making a suggestion about not giving out OP stuff then not going, 'oh ****, this is too much' and preventing its use is decent advice.


Indeed. I didn't think to mention difficult terrain because I thought that was too obvious.

More fool me.


Gotta support the OP on this one. Your tone is very dickish so far. He's not trying to remove their toys, hrs just trying to think of ways to make it so his players aren't just encouraged to be charge bunnies 24/7 with no enemy ever doing anything to prevent it. Characters don't live in a perfect world where every fight is geared towards their strategy.

I get that you were probably trying to be helpful, but when you jump down the DMs throat from post #1 about how he's punishing his players and a bad DM, you're not being constructive.

OP, definitely second the terrain features idea. Remember that as your players gain a reputation for using your tactics, enemies may take more and more obvious steps to counter it. Consider how the existence of that leather would affect the world. Would everyone have it? Would people recognize it? Would people want to take it for themselves? Just things to think about

[Vaz]

I disagree I was being dickish from Post #1. Or my second. My 3rd, most likely however, within fairness to the age old rule of 'they started it'. It worked for Roman Senators, so yes, I will feel free to Constructively criticize.

It's a pity the DM isn't adult enough to understand that.

[Darrin]

Unseen servant (available via Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c)) can also be used to ruin a charge, since you can't charge through an "occupied" square. Since it's an invisible force, it may not be obvious to the PCs that it's even there, or what stopped them from charging. If the PC insists on moving through that square, it becomes an Overrun attempt. The unseen servant is unlikely to win the Str check (Str = 2), but it forces the PC to use their standard action and prevents them from attacking. You can either direct the unseen servant to a new square every round, or give it instructions to interrupt on it's own:

"Follow me. When I'm not moving, stand in front of me and ready an action to block anyone who charges me."

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sorry, I get it, you're the DM, you're perfect and know everything about what you're doing. Sorry you were too busy being perfect to understand that making a suggestion about not giving out OP stuff then not going, 'oh ****, this is too much' and preventing its use is decent advice.

Hey, there went the line, just back there a little ways. Didn't you see it on the way by?

There's nothing wrong with allowing chargers but, like anything, you need to be prepared to challenge them. It's no fun for anyone if encounters are regularly getting steam-rolled.

The suggestions being given and the OP employing them aren't a problem unless they're used to excess.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Why don't you just homebrew a cloak of charge-stopping, that turns all terrain on one side of the character (3 squares for a medium creature) into difficult terrain? Maybe a large train of dire porcupine quills?

[Vaz]

Hey, there went the line, just back there a little ways. Didn't you see it on the way by?

That post you're quoting me on being 'the line' had a quote within it. THAT is the line.

[eggynack]

That post you're quoting me on being 'the line' had a quote within it. THAT is the line.
The thing you quoted seemed pretty much fine.

[Mr Adventurer]

Any amount of difficult terrain on the way will block a charge. It doesn't need to be secret, either, allowing the players to apply their tactical acumen to overcoming this problem.

Just having the bad guys stand in some undergrowth or poor cave floor, or the players starting in same, does the trick and controls the battlefield charging opportunities somewhat.

If enemies see how effective the charge is, they can start moving behind difficult terrain, too.

Charging is often quite difficult to actually pull off...

[Vaz]

The thing you quoted seemed pretty much fine.
I disagree. I do not believe in having everything handed on a plate, and nowhere did I say that. I responded in kind.

Ergo, we are where we are now.

[Fizban]

Why don't you just homebrew a cloak of charge-stopping, that turns all terrain on one side of the character (3 squares for a medium creature) into difficult terrain? Maybe a large train of dire porcupine quills?
Part of me wants to say that's a little too much, and part of me wants to say no wait that's awesomely understated. So probably good?

From the MiC come Steadfast Boots, which for less than the cost of a +1 weapon allow you to set any two-handed weapon against a charge, with a phrasing that most people seem to read as you having a free readied action at all times (which would still muck with initiative). Upon re-reading it I don't think that's as strongly supported as they think it is- it goes into detail about how it doubles the damage even if your weapon doesn't normally have that property, but idea of readying against a charge is only described in those weapons as far as I know. Considering the price I think it's more likely they intended it to be read as granting that property rather than granting a constant readied action, and simply chose a poor way to say it. But if you read it that way then it's another standard piece of loot to throw at them.

I also like the Thorn Pouch, which is a swift action followed by a free action to get Entangle, Spike Growth, or Wall of Thorns, seems like an excellent disruption item on paper even if I haven't got to test it yet.

For marbles and caltrops, don't forget the 1st level Unseen Servant which can happily scatter all sorts of muck about without disrupting your actions. The popular Drow House Insignia model (DotU) makes it some 500gp or so for a daily version. Can also be used to light up a Smokestick, which will block line of sight and thus the charge of anyone who doesn't have full blindsight. The same can be done with 1st level Obscuring Mist. In addition to Grease and Entangle, Spore Field (also CAv) is designed for use when there's no plants to Entangle but with the same massive duration. For a higher level spell that does the job as a side effect, Ice Storm makes difficult terrain while in effect, while Shatterfloor manages to pulverize its entire area into difficult terrain permanently as long as it's stone or weaker.

Edit: gah, such poor editing.

[Segev]

There are several weapons, some with reach, which can expressly be set against a charge for double damage. This works by readying an action to attack somebody who charges you. With reach, they can even take an AoO and then trigger the readied attack.

If the damage isn't dissuasive, reach plus trip weapons can foil a charge.

[rrwoods]

Which of these two describes your situation more accurately?

1. New Thing is too powerful, and I wish I hadn't let it happen at all. (Answer: Talk to the player. Explain you've inadvertently given him something that makes it too hard to challenge him without over-challenging the rest of the party, and that instead of New Thing he will get Other New Thing. Work with him on what Other New Thing actually is, and let him re-make any decisions made that were based on New Thing.)
2. New Thing is cool but overused, and I wish the player wouldn't do it as much. (Answer: Exactly what you're doing now. My suggestion is occasional caltrops. The players even get to scoop them up at the end of the battle and use them!) (EDIT: On more closely reading the OP, it sounds like this is the situation you're in. Still, (1) is good advice to have around.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

That post you're quoting me on being 'the line' had a quote within it. THAT is the line.

No, son. You crossed the line of civil discourse when you accussed someone asking for help of being a smug ass in the most sarcastic, condescending way you could come up with.

There's nothing wrong with an anti-railroading sentiment but you jumped the gun then lashed out verbally when you were told you were jumping the gun. Not cool, dude.

[Zanos]

I'll just pitch in that charging is a pretty common melee damage strategy even in the absence of homebrew magic items that buff it. Blocking charging is a pretty common counter-strategy to many melee focused builds, so I don't think that having enemies that counter it is particularly unusual. Charging is good, but it's pretty easily foiled. Like anything in moderation, NPCs shouldn't immediatley know the PCs are prolific chargers unless they've heard of them or seen them fight before, and even then every enemy/encounter shouldn't be unchargeable.

I mean if the DM had given the players are homebrew item that shot lightning and suddenly everything was highly resistant to having lightning shot at them, we might have a case for the DM taking toys away.

[Vaz]

No, son. You crossed the line of civil discourse when you accussed someone asking for help of being a smug ass in the most sarcastic, condescending way you could come up with.

There's nothing wrong with an anti-railroading sentiment but you jumped the gun then lashed out verbally when you were told you were jumping the gun. Not cool, dude.
I know i crossed the line there. No dispute, 'son'. It was in response to being told by some little petal that I basically spent my time as a player expecting shooting galleries, in a rather sarcastic condescending way.

Hell, look at the title of the thread if you wabt to look at where this was going at first; 'a-hole spell'.

Get off your high horse sunshine.


Edit; please don't test me on being sarcastic, that was fairly tame.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I know i crossed the line there. No dispute, 'son'. It was in response to being told by some little petal that I basically spent my time as a player expecting shooting galleries, in a rather sarcastic condescending way.

That wasn't my takeaway from that post. He outlined your posisition as he understood it, perhaps a bit accusatorily, then argued against it. If he misunderstood your position, you offer a correction, not a snide "**** you for not listening to me." That just makes you look like an ass.


Hell, look at the title of the thread if you wabt to look at where this was going at first; 'a-hole spell'.

He presumed, correctly I note, that some would see the advice he sought as prickish under the presumption he would certainly overuse it. Hyperbole is hyperbolic.


Get off your high horse sunshine.

You first, laughing boy. :smallamused:


Edit; please don't test me on being sarcastic, that was fairly tame.

Why, I have no idea why you would even think I would do such a thing?

[AnachroNinja]

I think the most logical reading of the title is that the OP is looking for a spell to create a hole, which is an obvious impediment to charging. He didn't say "an A-hole" spell after all. /Sarcasm

[Scorponok]

No, son. You crossed the line of civil discourse when you accussed someone asking for help of being a smug ass in the most sarcastic, condescending way you could come up with.

There's nothing wrong with an anti-railroading sentiment but you jumped the gun then lashed out verbally when you were told you were jumping the gun. Not cool, dude.

That's what I got from reading his original post. Like a "well you gave it to them, too bad." I can see this mug being one of those players who rage-quit whenever something doesn't go his way. And aside from one paragraph in his second post, his contributions to this thread have been pretty much worthless.

Anyways, this post, aside from one, has been excellent. A credit to the other Giants here. :)

[Lormador]

I don't see why this should be so contentious. A lot of us surely had the "chargers can do WHAT" moment in 3.5, and after a few moments of sheer panic, realized we could ameliorate the problem simply by producing better encounters that used a variety of terrain features that made tactics, including and especially setting up good charges, relevant.

In this case the moment has been brought about by some unusual pieces of gear, but no matter. The result is the same.

Use this opportunity to introduce more varied terrain on the battlefields and everyone will enjoy the combats more: except, perhaps, for characters who have paid no attention to mobility thus far.

Teach them to fear the Woodland Stride centaurs in the forest!