Thoughts on changing up rules for sorcerer?

[Sir cryosin]

What would be pros and cons if you were to give source for these changes.
1. Keeping there spells know the same. But allow them to prepare spell ever dawn like a cleric or druid. This could alleviate that heavy toll of only so few spells.

2. Using spell points. I have seen this come up in many threads but I haven't seen pro and con to using this rule.

3. What are other changes can we try and what are the pro and con to those changes.

[coredump]

I think the sorcerer schtick is about taking a small number of spells, and letting them tweak those spells in unususual ways.

I would not give them access to any more spells, they should be limited.

But.... give them access to a lot more metamagic. I would probably just double the metamagic in the book.

[DivisibleByZero]

2. Using spell points. I have seen this come up in many threads but I haven't seen pro and con to using this rule.

This works wonderfully. But only allow it for the sorcerer, not the group.

[Solunaris]

In one of the games I play in we allowed the Spell Point system for Sorcerers and made Sorcery Points = Spell Points (with the stipulation that you can only spend 2xSorcerer Level on Metamagic) and it has drastically improved the class. No other adjustments needed. It allows for Sorcerers to cast more high level slots if they need and adds in more metamagic fun without feeling wasteful for burning slots to fuel it. Plus, if they really want to they can get a slight edge over other casters in "Spells caster per day" if they ignore metamagic so I feel it preserves the feel of Sorcerers from past editions.

Now if only I could convince the DM of the game I player a Sorcerer to do this.

[Deleted]

What would be pros and cons if you were to give source for these changes.
1. Keeping there spells know the same. But allow them to prepare spell ever dawn like a cleric or druid. This could alleviate that heavy toll of only so few spells.

2. Using spell points. I have seen this come up in many threads but I haven't seen pro and con to using this rule.

3. What are other changes can we try and what are the pro and con to those changes.

1: This makes them more wizard than the wizard when it comes to preparing for the day/adventure.

2: Only let the sorcerer use this feature.

3: Rebuild metamagic! Metamagic should be an at-will resource for the sorcerer at its base level but allow SP to upgrade the metamagic.

Metamagic
You gain the following features (2 at first, more later) that work on sorcerer spells.

Subtle Spell
Base: You can cast a spell without verbal components.
1 SP: You can cast a spell without verbal or somatic components.


Careful Spell
Base: When you cast a spell, choose a creature or object in the spell's effect. That target passes their saving throw.

2 SP: Choose a number of targets that your spell effects, those targets pass their saving throw.

3 SP: Choose a number of targets that your spell effects, those targets ignore your spell until the start of your next turn if the spell has a duration. If the spell is an instant effect (such as fireball) they are not harmed by the spell.


Sorcerers don't need a lot of spells, but they need a lot of things to do with the spells. The biggest flaw of the PHB sorcerer is that metamagics are so limiting. Flexible soldering should be flexible.

[Renvir]

My group has been debating the use of the spell point variant for a while. We looked at it less in terms of Pros and Cons and more about its change to game play compared to the spell slot system. Here were the main takeaways:

Flexibility: The spell points variant gives casters more flexibility. They can cast the same spells at the same levels compared to the spell slot rules. They can also cast more spells per day or fewer spells per day if they choose. As an example: A normal 5th level wizard can cast four 1st level spells, three 2nd level spells, and two 3rd level spells for a possible 9 spells per day. Using the variant that same wizard could cast the same spells as the normal wizard, or 13 first level spells, or five 3rd level spells and a 1st level spell per day, or any number of combinations in between.

No Waste: With this system you will never need to use a 2nd level or higher spell slot to cast Shield. You always spend the lowest amount of points necessary to cast a spell.

Tracking: This system tracks spells in a way that is similar to hit points. People aren't used to tracking spells like this but given enough time I can't imagine it being any harder than how people track spells with the spell slot rules.

Burn Out: It is possible to run out of spells faster using the spell point rules. While this is a problem for every caster, using the spell point rules means you can have a lot more rounds where all you are doing is casting cantrips. The benefit of this is that you can pour out more magical "power" (damage, healing, etc.) in a shorter amount of time. This can potentially reduce the amount of other resources you have to use during a fight (HP, ammunition, magical items, etc.)

Left Over: The inverse of burning out, a player could be very cautious and end up with a ton of unspent spell points. It is also the inverse to the Burn Out method in that you can cause the party to spend more of other resources because you are being stingy with yours.

6th and 7th Level Spells: Full casters would normally be able to cast two 6th level spells at level 19 and two 7th level spells at level 20. Using the spell point variant means you only get one casting of spells at level 6 and level 7. But you still get the equivalent spell points to use for lower level spells.

Overall: Spell points give casters more options, aka makes casters more powerful, with little cost to balance it with the spell slot system. Balancing this against monsters isn't a problem because you can always up the CR to compensate for more powerful players. The downside is non-casters (Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues, and Monks) become less powerful in comparison to their caster friends. My group decided to create our own spell point variant that made the choice between slots and points more even.

[MrStabby]

Well the sorcerer is already a very powerful class, even if in unexpected ways. All these suggestions would boost the sorcerer so you might want to add something to the other classes as well so they can feel the love.

[Solusek]

What would be pros and cons if you were to give source for these changes.
1. Keeping there spells know the same. But allow them to prepare spell ever dawn like a cleric or druid. This could alleviate that heavy toll of only so few spells.

Don't like this. It changes up their spell casting too much, which is one of the things that's unique about playing sorcerer instead of a different class. You are stuck with the decisions you make, and can't tailor spells day to day - that's part of the fun!


2. Using spell points. I have seen this come up in many threads but I haven't seen pro and con to using this rule. No opinion on this atm, haven't looked in to spell points for 5e.


3. What are other changes can we try and what are the pro and con to those changes.

My biggest issue with sorcerers is their spell list seems too small. I hate how wizards get so many more spells to pick from, and have many wizard-only spells this edition while sorcerers get none. Some of those wizard spells really should be available for sorcerers to choose. Why can't sorcerers learn Rope Trick, or Evards Black Tentacles, or Wall of Force, or Maze, or True Polymorph, or a dozen other spells that wizards get. It doesn't make sense to me.

Alternatively, there could be a solid number (15+) of good sorcerer only spells designed that only they get and wizards don't, so spell selection doesn't feel so one-sided in favor of the wizard.

Also, a pet peeve of mine is how "Sorcerous Restoration" was given as a level 20 capstone power only, and not a scaling power that begins earlier on. I would scale it 2/3/4/5 sorcery points on a short rest at level 5/10/15/20, rather than the disappointing class feature that it is now.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I recently allowed my players to utilize the bard's spells known rate in place of the sorcerer's, and I allow them to create spell slots from SP at a 1:1 ratio (similar to spell points in execution, though it prevents extra castings of 6+). Did wonders for them.

[DragonSorcererX]

No opinion on this atm, haven't looked in to spell points for 5e.

Have you seem Mystic, the values of how many points per level are literally the same as the Spell Points from DMG, the point limit per "casting" is the same, it's just the costs of the Mystic's powers that are more varied.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Well the sorcerer is already a very powerful class.

...... What???? Sorc is so nerfed compared to Wizard that it's a crime.

[Deleted]

...... What???? Sorc is so nerfed compared to Wizard that it's a crime.

Well... Yes and no.

The Sorcerer makes for a better controller and the Wizard makes for a better blaster -_-, which is opposite what most people would think.

A Sorcerer with Careful spell can drop spells on allies (not blasty dex half spells) and not affect them.

Subtle Spell is amazing.

Twin and Quicken are awesome.

Heighten a spell when you need it to stick.

The biggest problem is that for as little spells they get, they don't get enough metamagic. If they could adjust spells more, the lower spell selection wouldn't matter.

The Sorcerer has the same problem as martials. You get limited choice and told that it's ok because it's ok... At least Sorcerers get build options and actual options.

[Hathorym]

The Sorcerer makes for a better controller and the Wizard makes for a better blaster -_-, which is opposite what most people would think.
I fully support this opinion. When I stopped trying to make blaster-twin-spell-centric sorcerers and switched to creating a walking Swiss army knife, not only did I feel like my power increased, but that the fun I was having with the class was infinitely better.

It really is amazing to me that if you let go of the assumptions of previous editions and try to look at the classes from a fresh point of view, you begin to realize new ways to approach the mechanics and builds of 5e.

[Deleted]

I fully support this opinion. When I stopped trying to make blaster-twin-spell-centric sorcerers and switched to creating a walking Swiss army knife, not only did I feel like my power increased, but that the fun I was having with the class was infinitely better.

It really is amazing to me that if you let go of the assumptions of previous editions and try to look at the classes from a fresh point of view, you begin to realize new ways to approach the mechanics and builds of 5e.

I still think the Sorcerer needs a boost. Just not in the way most do (moar spells)...


Meant to post this here but posted it over on the other sorcerer thread....

=====

Not balanced and that jazz and this is just a brain fart but... I would like to see metamagic set up like this....




Metamagic
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to twist your spells to suit your needs. You gain two of the following Metamagic options of your choice. You gain another one at 5th, 9th, and 13th level.

You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted. At 15th level you may apply two metamagic effects to a spell.


Careful Spell
When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell’s full force. To do so, you spend 1 sorcery point and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.

2 SP: The number of creatures you may choose increases by your Proficiency Bonus.

3 SP: The creatures chosen are ignored by your spell and the spell has no effect on them

Distant Spell

When you cast a spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater, you can spend 1 sorcery point to double the range of the spell. Additionally, when you cast a spell that has a range of touch, you can spend 1 sorcery point to make the range of the spell 30 feet.

2 SP: When you cast a spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater, you can spend 2 sorcery points to triple the range of the spell. Additionally, when you cast a spell that has a range of touch, you can spend 2 sorcery points to make the range of the spell 60 feet.

3 SP: When you cast a spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater, you can spend 3 sorcery point to quadruple the range of the spell. Additionally, when you cast a spell that has a range of touch, you can spend 3 sorcery points to make the range of the spell 120 feet.

Empowered Spell

When you roll damage for a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll a number of the damage dice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one). You must use the new rolls. You can use Empowered Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell.

2 SP: The number of damage dice you can reroll is increased by a number equal to your proficiency bonus. You may take the higher result.

3 SP: You may reroll all damage dice and take the higher result.

Extended Spell

When you cast a spell that has a duration of 1 minute or longer, you can spend 1 sorcery point to double its duration, to a maximum duration of 24 hours.

2 SP: When you use Extended Spell metamagic, you have advantage on concentration checks to keep the spell active.

3 SP: When you use Extended Spell metamagic, you can't lose concentration on the spell for at least 1 minute unless you are unconscious or decide to end the spell early.

Heightened Spell

When you cast a spell that forces a creature to make a saving throw to resist its effects, you can spend 3 sorcery points to give one target of the spell disadvantage on its first saving throw made against the spell.

5 SP: A number of creatures equal to your Charisma bonus (minimum 1) have disadvantage on the spell.

Quickened Spell

When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting.


Subtle Spell

When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.

Twinned Spell

When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).

To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.

3 SP: For 2 SP per spell level you may target a third creature in range with the same spell.

5 SP: For 5 SP per spell level you may target a fourth creature in range with the same spell.




The Sorcerer would need more SP and probably rebalanced in some way but... I just think if Metamagic is going to be Sorcerer only then it should be awesome and the main focus... All the bloodlines should focus on changing spells via new metamagics or whatever.

[Solusek]

I fully support this opinion. When I stopped trying to make blaster-twin-spell-centric sorcerers and switched to creating a walking Swiss army knife, not only did I feel like my power increased, but that the fun I was having with the class was infinitely better.

It really is amazing to me that if you let go of the assumptions of previous editions and try to look at the classes from a fresh point of view, you begin to realize new ways to approach the mechanics and builds of 5e.

If only wizards didn't have more "swiss army knife" choices in their spell list. Unfortunately, WotC made most of the best utility and battlefield control spells wizard only in this edition. The sorcerer spell list is comparatively lacking and really pigeonholes the class into primarily being a blaster/buffer.

[coredump]

I still think the Sorcerer needs a boost. Just not in the way most do (moar spells)...


Meant to post this here but posted it over on the other sorcerer thread....

=====

Not balanced and that jazz and this is just a brain fart but... I would like to see metamagic set up like this....




Metamagic
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to twist your spells to suit your needs. You gain two of the following Metamagic options of your choice. You gain another one at 5th, 9th, and 13th level.

You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted. At 15th level you may apply two metamagic effects to a spell.


Careful Spell
When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell’s full force. To do so, you spend 1 sorcery point and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.

2 SP: The number of creatures you may choose increases by your Proficiency Bonus.

3 SP: The creatures chosen are ignored by your spell and the spell has no effect on them

Distant Spell

When you cast a spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater, you can spend 1 sorcery point to double the range of the spell. Additionally, when you cast a spell that has a range of touch, you can spend 1 sorcery point to make the range of the spell 30 feet.

2 SP: When you cast a spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater, you can spend 2 sorcery points to triple the range of the spell. Additionally, when you cast a spell that has a range of touch, you can spend 2 sorcery points to make the range of the spell 60 feet.

3 SP: When you cast a spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater, you can spend 3 sorcery point to quadruple the range of the spell. Additionally, when you cast a spell that has a range of touch, you can spend 3 sorcery points to make the range of the spell 120 feet.

Empowered Spell

When you roll damage for a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll a number of the damage dice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one). You must use the new rolls. You can use Empowered Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell.

2 SP: The number of damage dice you can reroll is increased by a number equal to your proficiency bonus. You may take the higher result.

3 SP: You may reroll all damage dice and take the higher result.

Extended Spell

When you cast a spell that has a duration of 1 minute or longer, you can spend 1 sorcery point to double its duration, to a maximum duration of 24 hours.

2 SP: When you use Extended Spell metamagic, you have advantage on concentration checks to keep the spell active.

3 SP: When you use Extended Spell metamagic, you can't lose concentration on the spell for at least 1 minute unless you are unconscious or decide to end the spell early.

Heightened Spell

When you cast a spell that forces a creature to make a saving throw to resist its effects, you can spend 3 sorcery points to give one target of the spell disadvantage on its first saving throw made against the spell.

5 SP: A number of creatures equal to your Charisma bonus (minimum 1) have disadvantage on the spell.

Quickened Spell

When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting.


Subtle Spell

When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.

Twinned Spell

When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).

To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.

3 SP: For 2 SP per spell level you may target a third creature in range with the same spell.

5 SP: For 5 SP per spell level you may target a fourth creature in range with the same spell.




The Sorcerer would need more SP and probably rebalanced in some way but... I just think if Metamagic is going to be Sorcerer only then it should be awesome and the main focus... All the bloodlines should focus on changing spells via new metamagics or whatever.

I haven't checked for balance.... but I do like the concept.

[Arkhios]

I'd like to try spell points, but my DM is against it for some reason.

Anyway, I believe that as a sorcerer only method it would be enough to make them feel special in a good way.

Other than that, I might actually consider giving sorcerers their full list of metamagics immediately. The number of choices is so limited that doubling them has pretty much the same effect.

At the levels when a sorcerer would normally get more metamagic options I think the sorcerer could get to choose one or two spells of certain levels and cast them at their minimum levels without expending spell slots. (Much like invocations)

[Deleted]

I haven't checked for balance.... but I do like the concept.

Eh, I doubt that is balanced at all, it was put together real fast.

At the very least you would need more Sorcery Points.

I might do a 10 level rehaul of the Sorcerer. I rather like my Reaction Fighter and I have just the right Chaos Magic system to make Chaos Magic the primary Sorcerer subtype (simple and fun).

[coredump]

I don't recall the current wording, but if you increase the available meta magic, I would limit them to the sorc spells, to limit MC issues.

[Deleted]

I don't recall the current wording, but if you increase the available meta magic, I would limit them to the sorc spells, to limit MC issues.

My solution is to make Sorcerers not use "spellcasting" much like how Warlocks don't actually gain "spellcasting", warlocks gain Pact Magic.

Innate Spells wouldn't stack with Spellcasting, they would be entirely different systems. Multiclassing wouldn't be an issue. Plus, it would actually make the Sorcerer different from the Wizard.

I always found it weird that the person who studies spells and the person who just "does" magic. I always thought in 3.5 that the sorcerer should have "spell-like abilities" that ran off slightly different rules than spellcasting.

[ZZTRaider]

At the same time, though, I could totally see some sort of synergy with multiclassing Wizard and Sorcerer. Essentially, taking a natural and intuitive talent and combining it with study.

[Hathorym]

If only wizards didn't have more "swiss army knife" choices in their spell list. Unfortunately, WotC made most of the best utility and battlefield control spells wizard only in this edition. The sorcerer spell list is comparatively lacking and really pigeonholes the class into primarily being a blaster/buffer.
I do not feel that we are pigeon holed. In fact, I build my sorcerers to be Swiss army knives, just utilizing spells in creative ways. Illusions, Creation, and other spells that can have multiple uses are my choices.

One of my favorite is Gaseous Form. I can get almost anywhere, save people who are trapped (with distant), use it as a "Grant Stealth" spell for heavy armor wearers, as a poor man's Clairvoyance, move incredibly heavy objects with the assistance of the group's strongman, etc.

[Deleted]

At the same time, though, I could totally see some sort of synergy with multiclassing Wizard and Sorcerer. Essentially, taking a natural and intuitive talent and combining it with study.

Wizard Tradition would fit that.

Sorcerer "bloodline" would also fit that.

Honestly, multi-classing should be the last resort.

[Hathorym]

Honestly, multi-classing should be the last resort.
So many times this. If your concept doesn't work without multiclassing, manipulate your expectations to work within a single class.

[Deleted]

So many times this. If your concept doesn't work without multiclassing, manipulate your expectations to work within a single class.

Well... No.

Not at all.

WotC needs to get off their ass and actually release legit stuff and not just half ass it.

Only two subclasses for the sorcerer? Hot damn, its not like they didn't have decades of material to work with in making a few more options.

Blood Mage from 3e would have fit right in.

[Hathorym]

Well... No.

Not at all.

WotC needs to get off their ass and actually release legit stuff and not just half ass it.

Only two subclasses for the sorcerer? Hot damn, its not like they didn't have decades of material to work with in making a few more options.

Blood Mage from 3e would have fit right in.
I see your point

[Deleted]

I see your point

I mean, you aren't completely wrong in that ideology, it just wasn't what I meant :smalltongue:

But I'm a huge homebrew fan and would just say "find a "balanced-ish" homebrew of a Wizard with "Innate Spellcasting" tradition.