Valor Bard: Elemental Weapon vs Swift Quiver?

[JAL_1138]

Exactly what it says on the tin. Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter.

Elemental Weapon can be used with a nonmagical hand crossbow for three attacks at +1, +2, or +3 to hit and +1d4, +2d4, or +3d4 for damage, requires Concentration, and lasts up to an hour. Takes an Action to cast. I'd say assume the +3 to hit +3d4 to damage will never be used, because it requires a 7th or 8th level slot.

Swift Quiver can be used with a magic weapon (such as a +1 heavy crossbow--it's League and I'm at rank 3 in my faction, so if I want a +1 weapon, I can get one) for a total of four attacks per round, but grants no accuracy bonus or damage bonus per hit. Requires Concentration, lasts one minute, bonus action to cast. 5th level spell, doesn't scale.

My computer is currently kaput so I can't crunch the numbers to account for accuracy and crit chance, but is it better to have three attacks at -3 to hit, 1d6 +dex +10 +2d4 to damage (5th level slot), or four attacks at -4 to hit, 1d10 +dex +1 +10 (5th level slot, +1 weapon)?

[JellyPooga]

Just eyeballing it, I'd say Swift Quiver is better...barely.

The contest is +6d4 damage (average: 15) vs. 1d10+Dex+10+1 (average: about 20, depending on Dex). The net +1 to hit Elemental Weapon gives you is pretty negligible in the grand scheme of things.

edit: obviously this changes depending on various things. A "bigger gun" (i.e. better magic weapon) will favour Swift Quiver, while enemies being vulnerable/resistant to elemental damage will tend to favour Elemental Weapon, for example.

[Specter]

If you've already got a bonus attack via Crossbow Expert, then Swift Quiver loses a bit of its charm.

[JellyPooga]

If you've already got a bonus attack via Crossbow Expert, then Swift Quiver loses a bit of its charm.

True enough, but Swift Quiver allows you to use a really big gun heavy crossbow; the difference between 1d6 and 1d10 isn't huge, but it's a difference nonetheless.

[Ultimate_Coffee]

By my numbers, elemental weapon looks like the better choice.

I am assuming you are a level 10 bard, with 20 dex.

Elemental weapon +2 (as this is the same level spell as swift quiver) gives you an average DPR of 47.025 against enemies with 11AC. 37.725 against enemies with 16AC.

Swift quiver gives an average DPR of 47.1 against enemies with 11AC, and 35.6 against enemies with 16AC.

It looks like elemental weapon is better anytime the dice roll is important, and the difference against low AC is negligible.

Otherwise, swift quiver is only going to win in action economy, as it doesn't waste a whole turn, but the duration of elemental weapon lets it be easily cast before combat and persist through multiple combats...

I'd take elemental weapon hands down!

[JAL_1138]

By my numbers, elemental weapon looks like the better choice.

I am assuming you are a level 10 bard, with 20 dex.

Elemental weapon +2 (as this is the same level spell as swift quiver) gives you an average DPR of 47.025 against enemies with 11AC. 37.725 against enemies with 16AC.

Swift quiver gives an average DPR of 47.1 against enemies with 11AC, and 35.6 against enemies with 16AC.

It looks like elemental weapon is better anytime the dice roll is important, and the difference against low AC is negligible.

Otherwise, swift quiver is only going to win in action economy, as it doesn't waste a whole turn, but the duration of elemental weapon lets it be easily cast before combat and persist through multiple combats...

I'd take elemental weapon hands down!

My Dex is only 16, currently. An attack stat under 18--the horror...

I started half-elf instead of Vhuman. Level 4 feat went to Crossbow Expert, level 8 (which I just hit) went to Sharpshooter. It'll still be 16 when I hit 10th and have to pick my Magical Secrets. On the other hand, the advantage against Charm effects and the sleep immunity have both saved my character's life at least once, and as a sneaky type the darkvision keeps coming in handy. The extra skill and language have been useful too. Worth the ASI delays IMO, but still a bit painful in terms of accuracy and save DC.

[Ultimate_Coffee]

My Dex is only 16, currently. An attack stat under 18--the horror...

I started half-elf instead of Vhuman. Level 4 feat went to Crossbow Expert, level 8 (which I just hit) went to Sharpshooter. It'll still be 16 when I hit 10th and have to pick my Magical Secrets. On the other hand, the advantage against Charm effects and the sleep immunity have both saved my character's life at least once, and as a sneaky type the darkvision keeps coming in handy. The extra skill and language have been useful too. Worth the ASI delays IMO, but still a bit painful in terms of accuracy and save DC.

That really just makes elemental weapon shine that much more... With a lower base to hit, and less static damage, the bonus to hit and damage that elemental weapon provides will be even more noticeable...

[tsotate]

Elemental Weapon is very slightly better now, but becomes useless if you happen to find a better magic weapon. Given the permanence of Magical Secrets picks, I'd personally avoid one which I hope becomes obsolete soon.

[JAL_1138]

Elemental Weapon is very slightly better now, but becomes useless if you happen to find a better magic weapon. Given the permanence of Magical Secrets picks, I'd personally avoid one which I hope becomes obsolete soon.

Because it's League and I have a couple magic items already, a +1 heavy crossbow is about all I can reasonably assume I can get as far as magic ranged weapons go.

On the other hand, I might be able to pick up a +0 to hit, +1d6 fire damage hand crossbow (so I can still use 3 attacks when not Swift Quiver-ing) if I'm willing to trade my Ring of Spell Storing for an Opal of the Ild Rune (Rare item, can be applied to a weapon to make it a magic weapon doing +1d6 fire damage). Could be used with Swift Quiver, but not Elemental Weapon. With the 16 Dex, the lack of an accuracy bonus hurts, though...and the Ring of Spell Storing is so dang useful...

[Citan]

Exactly what it says on the tin. Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter.

Elemental Weapon can be used with a nonmagical hand crossbow for three attacks at +1, +2, or +3 to hit and +1d4, +2d4, or +3d4 for damage, requires Concentration, and lasts up to an hour. Takes an Action to cast. I'd say assume the +3 to hit +3d4 to damage will never be used, because it requires a 7th or 8th level slot.

Swift Quiver can be used with a magic weapon (such as a +1 heavy crossbow--it's League and I'm at rank 3 in my faction, so if I want a +1 weapon, I can get one) for a total of four attacks per round, but grants no accuracy bonus or damage bonus per hit. Requires Concentration, lasts one minute, bonus action to cast. 5th level spell, doesn't scale.

My computer is currently kaput so I can't crunch the numbers to account for accuracy and crit chance, but is it better to have three attacks at -3 to hit, 1d6 +dex +10 +2d4 to damage (5th level slot), or four attacks at -4 to hit, 1d10 +dex +1 +10 (5th level slot, +1 weapon)?
Honestly, I'd say Elemental Weapon without much hesitation. FOR YOUR CASE at the very least. Why?

- You already have Crossbow Expert, so you already have a consistent bonus action.
- While obviously another attack at 1d6+DEX+10 damage is good, you have to compare it to 2d4 on 3 attacks, average 4.5*2*3 = 27. Whether on average or on max, Elemental Weapon cast at the same level tops out. And this is compared with lucky expectation (let's not forget +10 damage means -5 to hit in the first place!).
- Swift Quiver lasts only one minute, compared to one hour for Elemental Weapon.
- You have better to hit with Elemental Weapon so better average damage.
- The ability to select a magical damage type means a) you will always bypass resistances to nonmagical damage b) at worst, you will deal normal damage, at best you could exploit a damage vulnerability.
- Elemental Weapon can be used with any weapon, including melee weapon, so you can use it for you, or for anyone else in the party, it will always be greatly useful (whereas Swift Quiver would be only useful on a Ranger or tailored Rogue/Fighter).
- Elemental Weapon is scalable so you can adapt your use depending on situation and current resources. When used at minimum level, it's a much more available resource because you have more 3rd (and 4th) level spells than 5th level slots.

Because of all this, for me EW >>>> SQ.
Would have been a different story if...
a) you already had for sure a +2 crossbow.
b) you did not get Crossbow Expert already.
EDIT: with only current 16 DEX, you definitely want something that helps your chance to hit anyways. Which rebounds to the first point: if you don't apply Sharpshooter, Swift Quiver bonus is really underpowered compared to Elemental Weapon. And if you apply it, you have a good chance of dealing 0 damage instead because of miss.


True enough, but Swift Quiver allows you to use a really big gun heavy crossbow; the difference between 1d6 and 1d10 isn't huge, but it's a difference nonetheless.
Good catch ;) didn't think of that. Then again, it would severely diminish the value of either the feat OP took already (why spend a feat for hand crossbow if you planned to rely as often as possible on SQ+heavy crossbow in the first place) or the spell itself (why spend a precious Magic Secrets on this if you just plan on using it once every now and then)...

IMO, Swift Quiver is much more interesting for anyone that planned on using longer range weapons in the first place, hence not being able to rely on Crossbow Expert to get bonus action attacks.

[JAL_1138]

That really just makes elemental weapon shine that much more... With a lower base to hit, and less static damage, the bonus to hit and damage that elemental weapon provides will be even more noticeable...


Honestly, I'd say Elemental Weapon without much hesitation. FOR YOUR CASE at the very least. Why?

- You already have Crossbow Expert, so you already have a consistant bonus action.
- While obviously another attack at +10 damage is good, you have to compare it to 2d4 on 3 attacks, average 4.5*2*3 = 27.
- Swift Quiver lasts only one minute, compared to one hour for Elemental Weapon.
- You have better to hit with Elemental Weapon so better average damage.
- The ability to select a magical damage type means a) you will always bypass resistances to nonmagical damage b) at worst, you will deal normal damage, at best you could exploit a damage vulnerability.
- Elemental Weapon can be used with any weapon, including melee weapon, so you can use it for you, or for anyone else in the party, it will always be greatly useful (whereas Swift Quiver would be only useful on a Ranger or tailored Rogue/Fighter).
- Elemental Weapon is scalable so you can adapt your use depending on situation and current resources. When used at minimum level, it's a much more available resource because you have more 3rd (and 4th) level spells than 5th level slots.

Because of all this, for me EW >>>> SQ.
Would have been a different story if...
a) you already had for sure a +2 crossbow.
b) you did not get Crossbow Expert already.

Good catch ;) didn't think of that. Then again, it would severely diminish the value of either the feat OP took already (why spend a feat for hand crossbow if you planned to rely as often as possible on SQ+heavy crossbow in the first place) or the spell itself (why spend a precious Magic Secrets on this if you just plan on using it once every now and then)...

[EDIT: You need Crossbow Expert to ignore the Loading property and use a crossbow more than once per round. Without it you're stuck with longbows, d8 instead of d10. Crossbow Expert still matters for heavy crossbow use. It also allows you to ignore the Disadvantage from having an enemy within 5ft.]

I'm leaning pretty strongly toward EW for those reasons, but how would the analysis change if I had a +0 to hit, +1d6 fire damage hand crossbow that could be used in conjunction with Swift Quiver but not EW? 2d6+mod per normal hit, 2d6+mod+10 per Sharpshooter hit, four times a round, seems pretty potent, but there's zero accuracy boost.

[Vogonjeltz]

If you've already got a bonus attack via Crossbow Expert, then Swift Quiver loses a bit of its charm.

If his attack is just with the hand crossbow, he doesn't, so the charm remains.

That being said, Elemental Weapon persists long enough that it could cover multiple combats, whereas Swift Quiver is pretty much one and done.

[bid]

Level 4 feat went to Crossbow Expert, level 8 (which I just hit) went to Sharpshooter. It'll still be 16 when I hit 10th and have to pick my Magical Secrets.
Dex16 is a little low to use SS at its full power. You need elemental weapon.

[JAL_1138]

If his attack is just with the hand crossbow, he doesn't, so the charm remains.

That being said, Elemental Weapon persists long enough that it could cover multiple combats, whereas Swift Quiver is pretty much one and done.

Just pointing out your quote is tagging me as saying something Specter said; as a response to Specter's comment, see my above post's edit--Crossbow Expert is required to use a Heavy crossbow with Swift Quiver or even Extra Attack, because of the Loading property (limiting crossbows to one attack per round without the fewt), so it's necessary for either option. Sharpshooter is the difference-maker feat, not Crossbow Expert. You're stuck with a Longbow without Crossbow Expert (and Disadvantaged in melee range).

I do lean toward EW a bit due to duration, but it can't ever combo with a possible item I could get (relatively easily; just have to trade to another of my League characters), a 2d6 damage (1d6 piercing, 1d6 fire) magical hand crossbow, since EW requires a non-magical weapon. Nobody's addressed how that magic-weapon option factors in. (Granted, that's because I forgot to mention it until my prior post.)


Dex16 is a little low to use SS at its full power. You need elemental weapon.

My next ASI is going into Dex, and it's only two levels after I pick up Magical Secrets. I'm not sticking at 16 Dex permanently.

Bard 8: Current level, Sharpshooter
Bard 10: Magical Secrets
Bard 12: Dex to 18
Bard 16: Cha to 18
Bard 19: Dex or Cha to 20, probably Dex 20 (since most of my Concentration casting will be on weapon damage).

I'm leaning toward EW, but not completely settled on it.

[Sigreid]

It's not something to base a decision on, but crits favor elemental weapon.

[agnos]

Iirc, Swift Quiver is a bonus action to cast, so it only gives you a "benefit" on the third turn of combat when you've gotten off 4 attacks from it. It also "locks" you into using your bonus action for attacks to get the benefit instead of "soft rezzing" people with 0 hp via Healing Word. Swift Quiver prevents you from passing out bardic inspiration to turn a miss into a hit (often for more dips than you can do), making a saving throw (so an ally can act without penalty) or raising AC to prevent a hit (keeping an ally above 9). I'd expect under normal situations that Elemental weapon giving 4d4 +4 per round (or 6d4+6 with BA attack) would be a larger DPS increase and overall more action efficient.

Swift Quiver is great on Rangers who primarily serve a DPS role and have fewer uses for their bonus actions. You're a bard though (and a Valor Bard at that), you have a wide variety of important bonus actions to take. There's little reason to try to be only DPS when you're more than that.

[Citan]

Just pointing out your quote is tagging me as saying something Specter said; as a response to Specter's comment, see my above post's edit--Crossbow Expert is required to use a Heavy crossbow with Swift Quiver or even Extra Attack, because of the Loading property (limiting crossbows to one attack per round without the fewt), so it's necessary for either option. Sharpshooter is the difference-maker feat, not Crossbow Expert. You're stuck with a Longbow without Crossbow Expert (and Disadvantaged in melee range).

I do lean toward EW a bit due to duration, but it can't ever combo with a possible item I could get (relatively easily; just have to trade to another of my League characters), a 2d6 damage (1d6 piercing, 1d6 fire) magical hand crossbow, since EW requires a non-magical weapon. Nobody's addressed how that magic-weapon option factors in. (Granted, that's because I forgot to mention it until my prior post.)

My next ASI is going into Dex, and it's only two levels after I pick up Magical Secrets. I'm not sticking at 16 Dex permanently.

Bard 8: Current level, Sharpshooter
Bard 10: Magical Secrets
Bard 12: Dex to 18
Bard 16: Cha to 18
Bard 19: Dex or Cha to 20, probably Dex 20 (since most of my Concentration casting will be on weapon damage).

I'm leaning toward EW, but not completely settled on it.
Hi!
Honestly, I don't understand your point in first paragraph. We all know the various benefits of Crossbow Expert, thank you. But I don't see very well what you want to stress. ^^

The debate here is whether or not Swift Quiver is a good choice for someone who has already picked up Crossbow Expert. Not choosing between its.
If you hadn't picked Crossbow Expert yet, then as I said it would have been a different matter. But you have it.

Also, how often really are you stuck within 5 feet from an enemy? Unless it's your specific character concept (point-blank shoot), usually this is just an occasional benefit...

Last comment on that part, I don't understand your distate of longbow: "being stuck with a longbow", I don't really see in what aspect that would be a problem unless you tend to be, again, in melee most of the time: one die size less is not that important compared to the fact you don't need a feat to chain attacks (no loading property) and the range is much better than heavy crossbow. Especially when that lesser size is put in proportion with the damage coming from your DEX modifier and Sharpshooter bonus. ;)

However, what you say after that does change things: when a magic hand crossbow goes from "just a wish" to "existing opportunity", it makes the choice more difficult indeed.
I would probably advise you to choose by pondering the following...
- Do you want a spell useful just for you (SQ) or potentially useful for anyone in your group (EW)?
- Are you fine with spending one of your three attunements on your weapon (instead of a potential ring, amulet, armor etc)?
- Are you fine with sticking with a weapon which half damage is commonly resisted (yes = SQ, no = EW)?
- Do you feel you are usually lucky enough on hitting (no = EW)?
- Do you rarely have to fight more than one encounter in a given hour (yes = SQ)?
- Are you ready to spend all your 5th level slots just to sustain a spell (yes = SQ)?

Count the points and see which side the balance tips towards... ;)
(Also, one benefit of EW is that because it lasts one hour, you can cast it as soon as you know/strongly expect a fight within the next 20mn, whereas the short duration of Swift Quiver forces you to consume it on your first turn at best, if you have enough information to be sure it is worth it).

[8wGremlin]

Question: would Hex be useful?

[djreynolds]

What level do you get swift quiver... and do you have access to magic weapons?

[Zalabim]

Otherwise, swift quiver is only going to win in action economy, as it doesn't waste a whole turn,


Iirc, Swift Quiver is a bonus action to cast, so it only gives you a "benefit" on the third turn of combat when you've gotten off 4 attacks from it.
As Agnos mentions, Swift Quiver takes a bonus action to cast then a bonus action to get the attacks so it provides no benefit the turn you cast it, and lasts short enough that you should wait until combat to cast it.

[D.U.P.A.]

Elemental weapon is only marginally better than Magic weapon, which is bonus action to cast and a friendly Wizard or certain Cleric can take it instead of you. A Paladin can still cast Elemental weapon to you too. Swift quiver is rather unique spell, which can be cast only on caster. If you really took Crossbow expert, then certainly is worth taking Swift quiver because larger die can make bigger difference in more attacks. Although combat should last at least two rounds, effective if you get good initative roll.

[JAL_1138]

Hi!
Honestly, I don't understand your point in first paragraph. We all know the various benefits of Crossbow Expert, thank you. But I don't see very well what you want to stress. ^^




Good catch ;) didn't think of that. Then again, it would severely diminish the value of either the feat OP took already (why spend a feat for hand crossbow if you planned to rely as often as possible on SQ+heavy crossbow in the first place) or the spell itself (why spend a precious Magic Secrets on this if you just plan on using it once every now and then)...

Emphasis added. I was addressing two things--one, addressing your comment there--why spend a feat if you plan on relying on SQ+Heavy Crossbow? Because you need that feat for either option, that you can't rely on SQ+heavy crossbow which you mention doing in the quote above, if you don't take Crossbow Expert. Perhaps you meant SQ+longbow?

The second thing I was addressing is that a previous poster inadvertently quoted me as saying something a different poster had said, that I didn't say, making a point I hadn't made; I simply wanted to clarify that it was an error.


The debate here is whether or not Swift Quiver is a good choice for someone who has already picked up Crossbow Expert. Not choosing between its.
If you hadn't picked Crossbow Expert yet, then as I said it would have been a different matter. But you have it.

Also, how often really are you stuck within 5 feet from an enemy? Unless it's your specific character concept (point-blank shoot), usually this is just an occasional benefit...

Last comment on that part, I don't understand your distate of longbow: "being stuck with a longbow", I don't really see in what aspect that would be a problem unless you tend to be, again, in melee most of the time: one die size less is not that important compared to the fact you don't need a feat to chain attacks (no loading property) and the range is much better than heavy crossbow. Especially when that lesser size is put in proportion with the damage coming from your DEX modifier and Sharpshooter bonus. ;)

I end up in melee range constantly. I frankly don't see how people don't; at least not in League or in dungeons. I practically never get in fights with encounter areas larger than 80 ft in any direction, and most are smaller than that and indoors. Despite atempts to stay at range, sooner or later something closes distance.

As for longbow--I don't have any particular distaste for it, but I already have the feat, and you're the one who asked "why spend a feat on hand crossbow if you planned to rely on SQ+heavy crossbow;" I was pointing out that you can't use one for it without the feat--which it seemed you were suggesting due to your phrasing there--and would have to use a longbow instead.

At any rate, I have the feat already, and would have taken it for the melee range thing anyway (because despite my best efforts I can't seem to stay out of melee range in League).


However, what you say after that does change things: when a magic hand crossbow goes from "just a wish" to "existing opportunity", it makes the choice more difficult indeed.
I would probably advise you to choose by pondering the following...
- Do you want a spell useful just for you (SQ) or potentially useful for anyone in your group (EW)?
- Are you fine with spending one of your three attunements on your weapon (instead of a potential ring, amulet, armor etc)?
- Are you fine with sticking with a weapon which half damage is commonly resisted (yes = SQ, no = EW)?
- Do you feel you are usually lucky enough on hitting (no = EW)?
- Do you rarely have to fight more than one encounter in a given hour (yes = SQ)?
- Are you ready to spend all your 5th level slots just to sustain a spell (yes = SQ)?

Count the points and see which side the balance tips towards... ;)
(Also, one benefit of EW is that because it lasts one hour, you can cast it as soon as you know/strongly expect a fight within the next 20mn, whereas the short duration of Swift Quiver forces you to consume it on your first turn at best, if you have enough information to be sure it is worth it).

No attunement is needed for either a +1 Heavy Crossbow or the +1d6 damage hand crossbow. No issues there.

Otherwise, a very solid list of factors to consider...but I'd like to know the actual damage numbers given the two items I could easily acquire--the +1 heavy or the +1d6dmg hand--so I can weigh that against the other advantages EW has over SQ. And whether I should bother getting the +1d6 hand xbow at all, since it can't combo with EW and is worse for Sharpshooter, even though it would make for pretty solid regular attacks without Sharpshooter-ing or casting either spell.

[EvilAnagram]

If x=the static bonus to damage, then average damage of a round of crossbow attacks:

Elemental Weapon (5th level) with Hand Crossbow: 3d6+6d4+3x, average 25.5+3x

Swift Quiver wit Heavy Crossbow: 4d10+4x, average 22+4x

If x>3.5, then Swift Quiver wins.

[coredump]

So..... like many attempts at 'optimizing' in 5E... the differences are pretty minute, and will vary by situation.
So.....
Pick the one that fits better, pick the one that seems more fun, pick the one that's cooler.... it won't make much of a difference damage wise.

[Citan]

Emphasis added. I was addressing two things--one, addressing your comment there--why spend a feat if you plan on relying on SQ+Heavy Crossbow? Because you need that feat for either option, that you can't rely on SQ+heavy crossbow which you mention doing in the quote above, if you don't take Crossbow Expert. Perhaps you meant SQ+longbow?

AAAahhhh ok. Thanks for clarification. I feel stupid to have missed that. XD

Back on topic, I agree with last poster. In the end, what matters the most if your own fun, comparisons show that the difference won't be that much (except for the duration, but rarely should you need either one more than 2 times in any given day) so pick with a light heart. ;)