[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Skill

[Adam Meyers]

There has been a lot of people who, since we began the Spheres of Might kickstarter, have wanted us to give the 'Sphere Treatment' to skills.

It's an idea we've discussed and played with a bit, but we were surprised at just how popular the idea has been, and if we decide to do it, I want to make sure it's done right.

So, what sorts of things would you want to see in it? Simply more 'skill related' spheres along the line of the Athletics sphere shown in the SoM preview? A series of augmentations for skills and additional uses for them? Or are you looking for a complete revamp of skills into a sphere-like system, complete with conversions for classes (for example, 2 skill points per level becomes 1 talent per 2 levels, 4 skill points becomes 15 talents over 20 levels, etc.)?

[khadgar567]

my option is more like athletics sphere were we can use lets say dancing skill to dodge attacks or invoke sphere of magic spells

[stack]

my option is more like athletics sphere were we can use lets say dancing skill to dodge attacks or invoke sphere of magic spells

Not sure what you are getting at for the last part. The skilled casting drawback in SoP already makes dance casting possible.

[khadgar567]

Not sure what you are getting at for the last part. The skilled casting drawback in SoP already makes dance casting possible.
I know but i think we can add real support to that drawback were using given skill like perform dancing or profession black smiting can also provides major benefits to casting like having x number of skills in talent allowing armorist to create higher quality stuff with creation sphere or allowing black smith to sunder weapons with out making attack roll by just gently touching it. In short terms giving player legitimate reasons to put points in skill so they can get more solid benefits from their skills and powers.

[GM1010011010]

More sphere that make use of skill such as the athletics sphere seems nice.

Also a quick thought, but it seems like having a way to convert some skill points into sphere talents for those sphere would be nice. Kinda like with skill tricks from 3.5 complete scoundrel.

Keep up the good work!

[GilesTheCleric]

I'd like to see skills buffed to the point where characters can use them to achieve Conan-, Perseus-, Odysseus-, or Herakles-levels of feats. I already houserule in my games that a DC 25+ nets you extra-ordinary results, but it'd be nice for something like that to be codified. Using a more consistent dice roll (eg 3d6) would be nice, too, but I understand some folks really prefer the wild results of 1d20.

I also do like PF's approach of slimming the skill list/ making skill points more readily available such that characters can get a bit more out of them. I was sad during the 3.0-> 3.5 transition when Alchemy was no longer its own skill/ no longer as in-depth. I didn't cry over Scry being subsumed into the spell, though I was a bit puzzled when PF sucked Fly out.

3.5's update to the knowledge skills rubs me the wrong way -- it makes more sense to me for characters to know about different specific creatures based on their backstory, rather than having studied exlusively one "kingdom" of foes, but maybe there's no better mechanical way to do it. Condensing all of K:local [place] into a single skill was also interesting -- it makes sense to me balance-wise, but in terms of fluff, doesn't make much sense.

Throughought 3e, there have been far too many attempts to create a knowledge: war or warcraft skill, so maybe it's worth considering what use it might have, and also why it never seemed to catch on for core 3.5.

I'd also like to request support for sailing/ spelljamming/ navigational skills. Travel always seems to get overlooked, but I think it's a facet of the game that could stand to have some more depth and interesting mechanics, to make it more fun to decide whether to use horses, a carriage, wagon, skyship, etc. A fix for mundane craft (x) skills would be nice, too, particularly a reduction in the amount of time it takes to make things. Yes, PF made some changes, but from what I've seen of the (Unchained, I think?) system, it's too complicated for anyone but really dedicated crafters to bother with.

Updated:

Alchemy 3.0 PHB 63: Now Craft (Alchemy)
Animal Empathy 3.0 PHB: No longer a skill (Ranger’s Wild Empathy)
Innuendo 3.0 PHB 70: Part of Bluff
Intuit Direction 3.0 PHB 70: Part of Survival
Knowledge:Undead DotF 18, update doc: DaD: Now K:Religion
Knowledge:War OA 57, SaF 10, DotF 18: Replaced with K:History Drag318 37
Pick Pocket 3.0 PHB: Now Sleight of Hand
Read Lips 3.0 PHB 72: Part of Spot
Remote View Psi 20: No longer a skill (Remote Viewing; CL checks)
Scry 3.0 PHB 73: No longer a skill (Scrying; CL checks)
Stabilize Self Psi 20: Part of Autohypnosis
Wilderness Lore 3.0 PHB 76: Now Survival

Unupdated/ obscure:

Administrate Birthright Campaign Setting 23
Autohypnosis XPH 36
Control Shape MM1 303
Fly Pathfinder
Iaijutsu Focus OA 58, 82
Knowledge:Ancient History Dark Sun 3 68
Knowledge:Barbarian Lore OA 57
Knowledge:Bloodlore Birthright Campaign Setting 24
Knowledge:Code of Martial Honor SaF 29
Knowledge:Forbidden Lore UA 198
Knowledge:Gemology Web
Knowledge:Hearth Wisdom SaF 10
Knowledge:Life-Shaping Life-Shaping Handbook 15
Knowledge:Literature SaF 10
Knowledge:Mathematics SaF 10
Knowledge:Politics SaF 10
Knowledge:Psionics XPH 38
Knowledge:Planetology Spelljammer 3e
Knowledge:Shadowlands OA 57
Knowledge:Spirits OA 57
Knowledge:Streetwise SaF 10
Knowledge:Warcraft Dark Sun 3 68
Knowledge:Wildspace Spelljammer 3e
Lead Birthright Campaign Setting 24
Literacy Dark Sun 3 69
Lucid Dreaming MotP 203
Martial Lore ToB 28
Psicraft XPH 38
Truespeak ToM 195
Use Psionic Device* XPH 38
Warcraft Birthright Campaign Setting 25
Wildspace Survival Spelljammer 3e

[A.J.Gibson]

I think a spheres of skill product would work best if it were directly integrated into SoM. SoP already provides combat and non-combat options, I don't see why non-magical characters should have their abilities divided into two products. Each SoM sphere could provide some combat and some skill ability, with some spheres being more one than the other.

As for actual spheres:
-an athletics/acrobatics high mobility sphere (oh look, SoM has that already)
-a stealth and trickster sphere (again, SoM has it)
-a 'find weakness' sphere based on knowledge skills (and maybe heal and perception)
-a dueling-type sphere for social skills
-an animal sphere for ride and handle animal which also includes mounted combat

[Ssalarn]

I think a spheres of skill product would work best if it were directly integrated into SoM. SoP already provides combat and non-combat options, I don't see why non-magical characters should have their abilities divided into two products. Each SoM sphere could provide some combat and some skill ability, with some spheres being more one than the other.
As for actual spheres:
-an athletics/acrobatics high mobility sphere (oh look, SoM has that already)
-a stealth and trickster sphere (again, SoM has it)
-a 'find weakness' sphere based on knowledge skills (and maybe heal and perception)
-a dueling-type sphere for social skills
-an animal sphere for ride and handle animal which also includes mounted combat

We actually already have all of those. The Scout sphere's base ability is a find weakness option, Fencing currently has lots of bluff options, some of which are useful out of combat, and the Equestrian sphere covers ride and handle animal in addition to mounted combat.

[Keante]

Or are you looking for a complete revamp of skills into a sphere-like system, complete with conversions for classes (for example, 2 skill points per level becomes 1 talent per 2 levels, 4 skill points becomes 15 talents over 20 levels, etc.)?

I think I was expecting this to be getting more spheres like the Athletics sphere--but now that you mention a complete revamp, that actually sounds really cool.

Although the conversion model you just threw out would worry me a little--my 2nd level fighter has one skill (talent). That's all he can do.

[Omoikane13]

Yo, if Drop Dead managed to make stuff like social combat / social skills work nicely, I'd love you forever.

But yeah, I'm in the camp of it being superhuman feats, for the 'spheres' that aren't incorporated into the existing content. A world-class diplomat, bonuses for huge amounts of knowledge, etc.

[Sukebe]

I had never really thought about skill spheres before but I really like the idea now that I am thinking about it :-)

"I'd like to see skills buffed to the point where characters can use them to achieve Conan-, Perseus-, Odysseus-, or Herakles-levels of feats"

This is actually exactly what I would not want to see in these skill spheres, at least not as basic talents. These things are best relegated to advanced talents as they can be immersion breaking in many different games.

I think most of the physical skill spheres would be best incorporated into SoM, just provide the spheres they fit into best with non-combat talents.

For non-physical skills (diplomacy, professions, knowledge's) I would be most interested in new interesting ways to use them both in and out of combat. I don't so much want a straight forward power boost so much as widening the scope of what we can do with them.

[A.J.Gibson]

We actually already have all of those. The Scout sphere's base ability is a find weakness option, Fencing currently has lots of bluff options, some of which are useful out of combat, and the Equestrian sphere covers ride and handle animal in addition to mounted combat.

That's sort of my point. Instead of a separate SoS system, just add more skill/utility powers to SoM. I also wouldn't mind more comic book superhero style powers - the barrage sphere could easily become the speedster sphere, for example.

[EldritchWeaver]

Maybe add a mechanic similarly to the Unchained Skill Unlocks, where the number of ranks decides over some additional bonuses.

[Ssalarn]

That's sort of my point. Instead of a separate SoS system, just add more skill/utility powers to SoM. I also wouldn't mind more comic book superhero style powers - the barrage sphere could easily become the speedster sphere, for example.

Most of the "superhero" stuff is in Legendary Talents. One of the loose gauges we use is "Okay, would this make sense if your Campaign Setting is Dark Sun? How about Samurai Champloo? What about One Piece or RWBY?" If it only makes sense in One Piece or RWBY, it's probably a Legendary Talent, where we have things like spending a move action to add double your BAB to your attacks as fire damage, walking on air for an hour / point of BAB, cutting reality in twain so you can teleport to another location through the hole in existence you just carved open, lassoing a tornado or lightning and storing it in a bottle for future use, punching a river onto a new course or moving a mountain out of your way, etc. There's also smaller Legendary Talents that have little to no prereqs but exist there because they'll be immersion breaking in some games, like using the Steal maneuver to literally steal someone's identity or fighting with three weapons using the Dual Wielding sphere by holding an extra weapon in your mouth or tail.

[The Glyphstone]

The thing I'd most like to see in a Skill revamp would be a functional rebuild of social interaction skills, as someone already brought up. Making Diplomacy and Intimidate useful and flexible, giving a reason to take Sense Motive ranks other than as a defensive skill point sink against Bluffs, that sort of thing. Ideally it would provide functionality for most skills both in and out of combat, though I'm not convinced an actual Spheres-type division of skills/skill-based classes is the best way to go about it.

[Roadie]

"I'd like to see skills buffed to the point where characters can use them to achieve Conan-, Perseus-, Odysseus-, or Herakles-levels of feats"

This is actually exactly what I would not want to see in these skill spheres, at least not as basic talents. These things are best relegated to advanced talents as they can be immersion breaking in many different games.

This seems like a strange complaint to me, because by that standard, basically everything past level 10 that nonmagical characters can already do should be "immersion breaking". Jump off a cliff and land on their face and laugh it off, run faster than Olympic sprinters, bend iron bars into pretzels, etc.

[Porridge]

There are a number of things I'd be interesting in seeing in a supplement of this kind. Here a number of features of the current skill system which are frustrating, and which it would be great to see a supplement address some of. In order of most frustrating to least frustrating:

--Frustration #1 (big). As it stands, skills generally not that important because even a large investment in skills is generally less effective than a simple spell might be at solving any given problem. Rules or options that make skills more effective and less likely to be overshadowed by magical options would be awesome.

(One might do this in a number of ways, including (a) adding skill-based spheres that explicitly allow you to use skills in extraordinary/fantastic ways, (b) expanding the potential uses of skills (perhaps something along the lines of the Rite Publishing's 101 New Skill Uses), (c) adding rules which allow those with very high skill levels to do extraordinary things (perhaps something along the lines of Legendary Games's Mythic Skills), and so on.)

--Frustration #2 (big). The current rules have a number of skills that either:

(a) don't scale well with the level of play (e.g., Diplomacy, which becomes much too easy in high level play),

(b) are opaque and hard to adjudicate (e.g., Stealth, which people are still arguing about), or

(c) are hard to make sense of given new rules (e.g., given recent Paizo errata, Spellcraft checks to identify spells now have nothing to do with the observation of the components of the spell and the effects of the spell, and instead are determined entirely by observing the mysterious "manifestations" of spell-casting, for which no clear rules exist).

A set of optional rules for these problematic skills that got around these problems would be awesome.

--Frustration #3 (moderate). As new rules come out, a lot of things people used to use skills for have been closed off behind feat-taxes. (For example, text introduced in Ultimate Intrigue suggests that it's now impossible to use Stealth to stealthily attack someone without the appropriate feat or vigilante talent, it's impossible to use Stealth or Bluff to conceal spellcasting without having the appropriate feats or class abilities, and so on.))

Having some rules about how to use skills to do these things when you don't have the relevant feats (perhaps at a penalty relative to those with the feat) would be great.

--Frustration #4 (minor). Most skills have a binary condition for success. That's great in many contexts, since it makes things simple and easy to run. But also makes having high skill values less interesting, and degrees of success less important.

Having some optional rules for adding further bonuses to skill check results that are especially successful/unsuccessful would be very cool. (For example, perhaps especially high checks give you bonuses for follow up checks, or increase durations, or some such thing?)

--Frustration #5 (minor). For skills like Diplomacy, it's generally only worthwhile to have one person who's good at it. So when you have two players with a high Diplomacy, it's generally the case that at least one of the players feels like they're wasting their skill points (even if it fits their concept of the character to give them a lot of ranks in Diplomacy). It's true, of course, that you can use Aid Another to help the person with the highest Diplomacy bonus, but you don't need much investment in order to do that effectively, and high skill bonuses don't make you any more effective at aiding the primary skill person. (It's also kind of weird that there's generally no downside to using Aid Another on skill checks, so you have the Barbarian with a 5 Charisma and no ranks in Diplomacy trying to Aid every Diplomacy check the party tries to make.)

Having some optional rules which (say) allowed Aid Another checks to help (or hurt) in a way that took the skill level of the person aiding into account would be great.

[Milo v3]

I'd just continue to incorporate elements into the existing Spheres, by trying to think up "Okay so how would x near useless skill be useful in combat". Admittedly, I'd expect most to be either Athletics talents or be Legendary Talents.

[Knight Magenta]

I think one of my problems with the existing skill system is that it does not actually provide much choice. Consider, with the current system you pretty much choose a few skills at level 1 and just boost them. On the flip side, a fighter that dumps int and has 1 skill point could be as good as perception as the rogue who maxes int and is the "skill class."

My second problem is that skills scale linearly. There is not much difference in going from 3 ranks to 4 ranks and 19 ranks to 20 ranks.

I like how Mutants and Masterminds does powers. It a skill-like system, but many abilities scale exponentially. For example: your move speed doubles with every rank of super-speed. So a character with 20 ranks of speed would move at 4000 miles per round.

I could see a skill-spheres system replacing the common skills something like this:

Each skill (or grouping of similar skills) is a sphere.
A character gets some number of base spheres equal to their normal number of skill/level.
You are considered to have 'max ranks' in your known spheres.
You can use talents to get cool things by specializing in a sphere, maybe with short chains, or with level prerequisites. Maybe the sphere effects scale with talents invested in the sphere. Or maybe you need N talents in a sphere to take powerful talents there.
You could spend talents on unlocking new spheres, trading depth for breadth.

The talents could range from skill-unlock tier at the low end, up to utility spells at the mid point, going into Labors-of-Hercules with legendary talents.

You could balance it to some degree by cutting wealth in such a game.

[N. Jolly]

Something I'll say here is that we're not looking to change skills entirely with this idea; this is a sibling idea to SoM. And as such, we're going to try to give more uses for skills, yet in the long run, this is going to be something you can use with your core books same as SoM. This is to give more unique and diverse ways to use skills without completely changing the system (so we can't fix all the problems with said system). That said, our goal is to make skills more enjoyable to use, much like SoM is to make combat more enjoyable. If we can use this to push some classes up, to give people more fun toys with which to play, we'll have done our job.

[LordOfCain]

*intense fangirling* YES, ALL OF THE YES!!!

[NomGarret]

What I would like to see is something that gives most characters the ability to contribute something interesting and useful in most encounters (combat or not) without the use of magic. As far as format goes, I'd be perfectly happy if the SoM talents accomplished this. There's still plenty of un-previewed material, and I think that's a realistic goal. In terms of power level, I'm definitely more of a narrativist than a simulationist, so plenty of technically physics-bending things can be incorporated for "rule of cool." Level, or BAB-gate it if you need to, but leaping canyons in a single bound or being so stealthy your movement is considered a teleport aren't what I would consider Legendary Talents. That's punching the ocean so it parts and you can walk across.

[Sayt]

So, a standing problem with the "mobility" skills (climb, syealth, etc) are restricted by needing the entire party to invest in those skills.

"We could sneak past the sleeping linorm, but clanky McFullplate the fighter didn't have the points to invest."

How about a talent where you can share a skill check with your party, suddenly stealth, climb, acrobatics and swim are investments in your team's effectiveness?

How about a talent that gives you a base dodge bonus plus a fraction of your acrobatics ranks while you're not benefittimg from an armor bonus to AC?

Something akin to 3.5's knowledge devotion, where you can lever ranks in knowledges into combat advantage. (Although Knowledge devotiom is perhaps a bit too broadly good)

How about cross discipline knowledge, you can use, say, 3/4 of your ranks in k. engineering as ranks in k. Arcana by transferring the mathematical principles. Use a fraction of your local ranks to identify monstrous humanoids, that kind of thing.

[Mehangel]

So, a standing problem with the "mobility" skills (climb, syealth, etc) are restricted by needing the entire party to invest in those skills.

"We could sneak past the sleeping linorm, but clanky McFullplate the fighter didn't have the points to invest."

How about a talent where you can share a skill check with your party, suddenly stealth, climb, acrobatics and swim are investments im your team's effectiveness?

I agree, and would like to see such a talent.


How about a talent that gives you a base dodge bonus plus a fraction of your acrobatics ranks while you're not benefittimg from an armor bonus to AC?

This reminds me of Neverwinter Nights, which granted a dodge bonus to AC equal to 1/5th the number of ranks in the Tumble skill. I would love to see this, and wouldn't mind seeing it incorporated into Fighting Defensively/Total Defense.

[Ualaa]

I might be interested in a Spheres of Skill product, if the entire skill system were revamped.

Some classes are meant to have a lot of skills, such as the Rogue, and to a lesser extent the Bard and Ranger. Other classes get a bare minimum of two per level.

Bonus skill points are based off of a stat which most characters don't benefit from on the assumption that a smarter character is better at more things.
While a wizard/psion may be better at figuring things out or in the recollection of information... ie., languages and skill checks, being a wizard (with say INT 20) would not make one intrinsically a better Swimmer, Climber, Horse Rider, Acrobat, and Dancer than a Dex/Finesse Fighter.

Let's say in the current iteration of skills, everyone has a base of four irregardless of class. And maybe you get a bonus from the highest stat and a penalty from the lowest stat, which can modify this base number by one, so a range of 3-5 skills per level.
Or if the skill system were revamped, and we go from 15 or 20 skills to 50 skills, maybe that base number is 6 skills per level, with a scaling bonus/penalty such that a character has between 4 and 8 skills per level.
They wouldn't necessarily even have to be on a point system...
It could be a lesser, then a moderate and finally a greater investment within a given skill or skill sets.

Anyway, if the whole skill system were revamped, I'd be interested in a Spheres of Skill system.
Using the existing system, I'd prefer it were integrated into the Spheres of Might, similar to how Path of War has a key skill for a given discipline and their style of combat is built around using that skill successfully.

[Sukebe]

leaping canyons in a single bound or being so stealthy your movement is considered a teleport aren't what I would consider Legendary Talents

going by what Ssalarn has said, those would indeed be Legendary Talents and that is something that makes me very happy indeed. I want talents like those included but I don't want them to be part of the default product. The whole point of legendary talents is that it is up to the DM to include them or not. It always looks better when a DM gives players access to something extra than it does when a DM to takes something away from their players. This is just human nature. Not all DMs want their players jumping canyons without using magic but for those of us who do we can just allow the appropriate Legendary talents.

[LordOfCain]

going by what Ssalarn has said, those would indeed be Legendary Talents and that is something that makes me very happy indeed. I want talents like those included but I don't want them to be part of the default product. The whole point of legendary talents is that it is up to the DM to include them or not. It always looks better when a DM gives players access to something extra than it does when a DM to takes something away from their players. This is just human nature. Not all DMs want their players jumping canyons without using magic but for those of us who do we can just allow the appropriate Legendary talents.
That is true. I, as a GM, feel better saying, and my players like it more, when I say "You can use 3.5 material, Dreamscarred press, and the core rulebook." as opposed to "You can't use anything but 3.5 material, Dreamscarred Press, and the core rulebook." Not that that's actually my allowed/banned sources list, or even close to it.

[Mehangel]

going by what Ssalarn has said, those would indeed be Legendary Talents and that is something that makes me very happy indeed. I want talents like those included but I don't want them to be part of the default product. The whole point of legendary talents is that it is up to the DM to include them or not. It always looks better when a DM gives players access to something extra than it does when a DM to takes something away from their players. This is just human nature. Not all DMs want their players jumping canyons without using magic but for those of us who do we can just allow the appropriate Legendary talents.

My issue is that after level 5 all martial characters are doing "legendary" actions such as: regularly surviving long distant falls, having their neck slit with a dagger, or jumping distances that far exceed world records. Another problem is that in most of my games, we dont use or allow Advanced Talents as a default because they are optional due to them considered 'world shattering' if abused. Legendary talents I fear are being made optional not because of 'world shattering' content but because they may be considered 'standard-high fantasy' material.

To solve this, I would like to see the introduction to Legendary talents include something along the following:

Spheres of Might is written for Low-Fantasy settings in mind, but for Standard or High Fantasy settings, GMs are encouraged to allow players to utilize Legendary talents that lie here-in. Below are examples of how Spheres of Might content is recommended to be utilized to decrease the martial/caster disparity.

No Fantasy Setting: Everyone in the world (including PC's) are built utilizing NPC classes (except Adept) until 6th level where they can choose Core Classes such as Fighter or Rogue, or a Prestige Class. It is not recommended that Spheres of Might be made available until after 5th level.

Low Fantasy Setting: Players who are casters, may only enter classes with severely limited casting progression such as Rangers, Paladins, and Bloodragers. If utilizing Spheres of Power, players are limited to only Low-casters such as the Armorist and Mageknight. In a Low Fantasy Setting, players should have full access to basic talents from Spheres of Might, but are recommended to not have access to Legendary talents.

Standard Fantasy Setting: Players who are casters, may only enter classes with limited casting progression such as Alchemist, Bard, and Hunters. If utilizing Spheres of Power, players are limited to only Mid-casters such as the Hedgewitch and Symbiat. In a Standard Fantasy Setting, players should have full access to basic talents from Spheres of Might, but may have limited access to Legendary talents.

High Fantasy Setting: Players who are casters, may enter classes with full casting progression such as Cleric, Sorcerer, and Wizards. If utilizing Spheres of Power, players may be High-casters such as Incanter and Thaumaturge. In a High Fantasy Setting, players should have full access to both basic and legendary talents from Spheres of Might.

Diverging from these recommendations may very likely encourage a martial/caster disparity (i.e. give an unfair advantage of one over the other).

[EldritchWeaver]

My issue is that after level 5 all martial characters are doing "legendary" actions such as: regularly surviving long distant falls, having their neck slit with a dagger, or jumping distances that far exceed world records. Another problem is that in most of my games, we dont use or allow Advanced Talents as a default because they are optional due to them considered 'world shattering' if abused. Legendary talents I fear are being made optional not because of 'world shattering' content but because they may be considered 'standard-high fantasy' material.

To solve this, I would like to see the introduction to Legendary talents include something along the following:

Spheres of Might is written for Low-Fantasy settings in mind, but for Standard or High Fantasy settings, GMs are encouraged to allow players to utilize Legendary talents that lie here-in. Below are examples of how Spheres of Might content is recommended to be utilized to decrease the martial/caster disparity.

No Fantasy Setting: Everyone in the world (including PC's) are built utilizing NPC classes (except Adept) until 6th level where they can choose Core Classes such as Fighter or Rogue, or a Prestige Class. It is not recommended that Spheres of Might be made available until after 5th level.

Low Fantasy Setting: Players who are casters, may only enter classes with severely limited casting progression such as Rangers, Paladins, and Bloodragers. If utilizing Spheres of Power, players are limited to only Low-casters such as the Armorist and Mageknight. In a Low Fantasy Setting, players should have full access to basic talents from Spheres of Might, but are recommended to not have access to Legendary talents.

Standard Fantasy Setting: Players who are casters, may only enter classes with limited casting progression such as Alchemist, Bard, and Hunters. If utilizing Spheres of Power, players are limited to only Mid-casters such as the Hedgewitch and Symbiat. In a Standard Fantasy Setting, players should have full access to basic talents from Spheres of Might, but may have limited access to Legendary talents.

High Fantasy Setting: Players who are casters, may enter classes with full casting progression such as Cleric, Sorcerer, and Wizards. If utilizing Spheres of Power, players may be High-casters such as Incanter and Thaumaturge. In a High Fantasy Setting, players should have full access to both basic and legendary talents from Spheres of Might.

Diverging from these recommendations may very likely encourage a martial/caster disparity (i.e. give an unfair advantage of one over the other).

I like this suggestion and support adding such a text. I would add text regarding advanced talents as well and finetune things, once it is clear what the actual power level of Legendary talents is.

[LordOfCain]

I like this suggestion and support adding such a text. I would add text regarding advanced talents as well and finetune things, once it is clear what the actual power level of Legendary talents is.
I agree as well so GMs can have some help deciding what to allow.

[Afgncaap5]

Just off the top of my head, a few things I wouldn't mind...

-I wouldn't mind the ability for players to do certain things without having to roll for them. In combat I don't have to roll to "flank" and in magic I don't have to roll to levitate myself, these are just things I can "do". I think it'd be fair for there to be some way of balancing a player's competence in a certain skill or ability with the difficulty of said ability and then just letting them "do" it. Case in point, I currently houserule that a player with a sufficiently high strength score doesn't have to roll a check to break down a locked or stuck door if they aren't being impeded in some way. For comparison, consider Inigo and Fezzik in The Princess Bride. Inigo has to roll and reroll every time he wants to break down something, but Fezzik generally just has to step in, apply force, and move one. It isn't that Inigo isn't strong, he's just not *that* strong, so rolling is still what he has to do (and if we assume a door with a DC stronger than a typical Strong Wooden Door then it might not even matter how high Inigo rolls.)

-Skill Tricks! To date my favorite and most underused system in 3.5, I was a big fan of skill tricks conceptually even if I wanted their implementation to be better than "You can use this once per encounter." I mean, I totally buy them being limited, some of them would've taken a lot of physical exertion, but just once per encounter without prestige classes seemed weird. A points-per-day system or even a limitation related to ability scores or class level would feel more appropriate to me.

-Skill overlap: I'd like to be able to do some things with multiple skills, even if I'm doing them in different ways. We see some overlap in capability in Spheres of Power, and I think it'd be good to continue that here. If someone has a "dumb luck" skill, I think they should be able to beat someone with a comparable amount of "focused training" skill in certain tasks. Sort of related to how skill synergy works, but more active than passive.

[LordOfCain]

I'm glad we don't have to meet a stretch goal to get the skill spheres, but disappointed it won't get its own book... Mixed bag. Maybe in the future they could try to make a whole skill spheres book?

[Xararion]

So is the goal with the skill spheres to replace the typical skillpoint system of 3.5-PF? Or work alongside it. When I think of skill spheres I think of being almost like a replacement. Instead of doing your typical funneling your points to the few skills that are relevant to your character (or many, if you're flush with points), you would get fewer points to unlock the skills, that then scaled up as you leveled. This would give subsequent points to be left to open up talents within the skill spheres to do more fancy things with them.

If it worked anything like in my head though, it might take uncomfortably long to unlock your expected amount of basic skills to be proficient in.

[Milo v3]

So is the goal with the skill spheres to replace the typical skillpoint system of 3.5-PF? Or work alongside it. When I think of skill spheres I think of being almost like a replacement. Instead of doing your typical funneling your points to the few skills that are relevant to your character (or many, if you're flush with points), you would get fewer points to unlock the skills, that then scaled up as you leveled. This would give subsequent points to be left to open up talents within the skill spheres to do more fancy things with them.
So, what happens if you end up changing your character's focus when it comes to skills after level one?

[khadgar567]

So, what happens if you end up changing your character's focus when it comes to skills after level one?
You buy the needed ones thats the best part of spheres system you can change your character on the fly

[Sukebe]

Just off the top of my head, a few things I wouldn't mind...

-I wouldn't mind the ability for players to do certain things without having to roll for them. In combat I don't have to roll to "flank" and in magic I don't have to roll to levitate myself, these are just things I can "do". I think it'd be fair for there to be some way of balancing a player's competence in a certain skill or ability with the difficulty of said ability and then just letting them "do" it. Case in point, I currently houserule that a player with a sufficiently high strength score doesn't have to roll a check to break down a locked or stuck door if they aren't being impeded in some way. For comparison, consider Inigo and Fezzik in The Princess Bride. Inigo has to roll and reroll every time he wants to break down something, but Fezzik generally just has to step in, apply force, and move one. It isn't that Inigo isn't strong, he's just not *that* strong, so rolling is still what he has to do (and if we assume a door with a DC stronger than a typical Strong Wooden Door then it might not even matter how high Inigo rolls.)

-Skill Tricks! To date my favorite and most underused system in 3.5, I was a big fan of skill tricks conceptually even if I wanted their implementation to be better than "You can use this once per encounter." I mean, I totally buy them being limited, some of them would've taken a lot of physical exertion, but just once per encounter without prestige classes seemed weird. A points-per-day system or even a limitation related to ability scores or class level would feel more appropriate to me.

-Skill overlap: I'd like to be able to do some things with multiple skills, even if I'm doing them in different ways. We see some overlap in capability in Spheres of Power, and I think it'd be good to continue that here. If someone has a "dumb luck" skill, I think they should be able to beat someone with a comparable amount of "focused training" skill in certain tasks. Sort of related to how skill synergy works, but more active than passive.

I like all of these idea and would love for all of them to appear in the skills chapter :-)

Skill tricks would be great with the unchained books Stamina rules (which already have some mention in SoM) and would be a great way to expand skills without making them overly powerful.


My issue is that after level 5 all martial characters are doing "legendary" actions such as: regularly surviving long distant falls, having their neck slit with a dagger, or jumping distances that far exceed world records. Another problem is that in most of my games, we dont use or allow Advanced Talents as a default because they are optional due to them considered 'world shattering' if abused. Legendary talents I fear are being made optional not because of 'world shattering' content but because they may be considered 'standard-high fantasy' material.

To solve this, I would like to see the introduction to Legendary talents include something along the following:

Spheres of Might is written for Low-Fantasy settings in mind, but for Standard or High Fantasy settings, GMs are encouraged to allow players to utilize Legendary talents that lie here-in. Below are examples of how Spheres of Might content is recommended to be utilized to decrease the martial/caster disparity.

No Fantasy Setting: Everyone in the world (including PC's) are built utilizing NPC classes (except Adept) until 6th level where they can choose Core Classes such as Fighter or Rogue, or a Prestige Class. It is not recommended that Spheres of Might be made available until after 5th level.

Low Fantasy Setting: Players who are casters, may only enter classes with severely limited casting progression such as Rangers, Paladins, and Bloodragers. If utilizing Spheres of Power, players are limited to only Low-casters such as the Armorist and Mageknight. In a Low Fantasy Setting, players should have full access to basic talents from Spheres of Might, but are recommended to not have access to Legendary talents.

Standard Fantasy Setting: Players who are casters, may only enter classes with limited casting progression such as Alchemist, Bard, and Hunters. If utilizing Spheres of Power, players are limited to only Mid-casters such as the Hedgewitch and Symbiat. In a Standard Fantasy Setting, players should have full access to basic talents from Spheres of Might, but may have limited access to Legendary talents.

High Fantasy Setting: Players who are casters, may enter classes with full casting progression such as Cleric, Sorcerer, and Wizards. If utilizing Spheres of Power, players may be High-casters such as Incanter and Thaumaturge. In a High Fantasy Setting, players should have full access to both basic and legendary talents from Spheres of Might.

Diverging from these recommendations may very likely encourage a martial/caster disparity (i.e. give an unfair advantage of one over the other).

The thing is though, falling long distances and not being hurt is not a high fantasy thing. Even people in the real world can do that it simply requires a lot of practice and some knowledge. Herculean feats that don't require magic are not something commonly seen even in high fantasy. Generally, those who do these things either have some magical nature (Heraculese) or the very epitime of a warrior (Cú Chulainn) who I would consider far higher level that 5 (more like 16-20, if not epic) or they have some special legendary item (which would be magic).

As for advanced talents being "world shattering" that is not always the case. Advanced talents simply change how the world is likely going to work. Being able to raise those who have been dead for more than a short time is not likely to shatter the world...but it will change how the world works a great deal. Same with flesh shaping, it won't shatter the world but it makes many things possible that would otherwise be much harder (you can change how people look permanently, making subterfuge that much easier without relying on the illusion sphere). Several advanced talents in SoP are actually in the basic pathfinder game but are still designated as advanced talents simply so that DMs have to consider whether they want them in their world or not. Advanced talents are just another world building tool for the DM.

[Mehangel]

The thing is though, falling long distances and not being hurt is not a high fantasy thing. Even people in the real world can do that it simply requires a lot of practice and some knowledge. Herculean feats that don't require magic are not something commonly seen even in high fantasy. Generally, those who do these things either have some magical nature (Heraculese) or the very epitime of a warrior (Cú Chulainn) who I would consider far higher level that 5 (more like 16-20, if not epic) or they have some special legendary item (which would be magic).

I dont believe I ever explicitly said that being able to survive long distance falls was 'high fantasy'. Of-course we probably have different definitions of what is considered 'long distances'. For example, I know that people have frequently survived falls of 20k-30k feet. I also know about Felix Baumgartner who survived a 128k foot drop. In regards to Felix however, he had a specialized suit which would be best compared (in my opinion) to a magic item, so I dont think that really counts. Without the suit, Felix probably wouldn't have survived the fall due to his blood boiling. I guess what I am saying is that due to game physics a naked character can survive a 300 mile drop, while a naked real-world person would not.

I understand what you are saying, but the purpose of my post was to encourage GM's to prevent 'martial/caster disparity' or using the 'guy at the gym fallacy'. I want it made clear that martials can and should have 'nice things' despite of what paizo says. If a mage can fly at level 5, than a warrior should be able to do something just as impressive.

As it is right now:
Mage 1: Energy Blast that auto-hits or touch AC 1/round
Warrior 1: Weapon Attack 1/round (something the mage can also do with nearly same efficacy at level 1).
Mage 6: Energy Blast 1/round + Flight
Warrior 6: Weapon Attack 2/round
Mage 12: Energy Blast 1/round + Flight + Summon (which might be able to attack with nearly same efficacy as warrior of same level)
Warrior 12: Weapon Attack 3/round
Mage 18: Energy Blast 1/round + Flight + Summon + Shapechange
Warrior 12: Weapon Attack 4/round

I am not saying that warriors should be able to fly at level 5, but they should be able to contribute with something besides another attack. From what I understand, some of the "Legendary talents" aren't really all that 'legendary', unrealistic perhaps, but Extraordinary abilities exist and we dont live in a fantasy setting.

Extraordinary abilities are non-magical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that suppress or negate magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.
Jumping world record breaking distances is something that anyone can already do (with or without magic). What is the difference between jumping over 120 ft (something very possible to do in Pathfinder with only max ranks in Acrobatics, a couple feats, and a mundane non-magic pole) and jumping distances over a mile (something SoM labels as "legendary").

If exceeding our world record of long jump 3-4 times over isn't Extraordinary (because anyone CAN eventually do it) why is jumping larger distances considered Legendary (instead of simply Extraordinary).

Blindsight, Darkvision, Scent, and Spell Resistance are examples of Extraordinary abilities, jumping distances that exceed our real-life world records are not, and probably shouldn't really be considered 'Legendary'.


As for advanced talents being "world shattering" that is not always the case. Advanced talents simply change how the world is likely going to work. Being able to raise those who have been dead for more than a short time is not likely to shatter the world...but it will change how the world works a great deal. Same with flesh shaping, it won't shatter the world but it makes many things possible that would otherwise be much harder (you can change how people look permanently, making subterfuge that much easier without relying on the illusion sphere). Several advanced talents in SoP are actually in the basic pathfinder game but are still designated as advanced talents simply so that DMs have to consider whether they want them in their world or not. Advanced talents are just another world building tool for the DM.

How is "will change how the world works a great deal" not 'world shattering'? Did I say say that Advanced talents breaks campaigns? No. And yes, I do understand that they (advanced talents) are a world building tool for the GM, but that does not change the fact that Advanced talents are mostly based off of Pathfinder spells that were often considered "world shattering", "problematic", or otherwise "disruptive" in one form or another.

[Xararion]

So, what happens if you end up changing your character's focus when it comes to skills after level one?

I'd imagine you could still use your talents from level ups to unlock spheres. Or you retrain a previous sphere unlock talent.

But I'm not designer, I have no idea how they plan on implementing skill spheres.

[Ssalarn]

My issue is that after level 5 all martial characters are doing "legendary" actions such as: regularly surviving long distant falls, having their neck slit with a dagger, or jumping distances that far exceed world records. Another problem is that in most of my games, we dont use or allow Advanced Talents as a default because they are optional due to them considered 'world shattering' if abused. Legendary talents I fear are being made optional not because of 'world shattering' content but because they may be considered 'standard-high fantasy' material.

To solve this, I would like to see the introduction to Legendary talents include something along the following:

Spheres of Might is written for Low-Fantasy settings in mind, but for Standard or High Fantasy settings, GMs are encouraged to allow players to utilize Legendary talents that lie here-in. Below are examples of how Spheres of Might content is recommended to be utilized to decrease the martial/caster disparity.

No Fantasy Setting: Everyone in the world (including PC's) are built utilizing NPC classes (except Adept) until 6th level where they can choose Core Classes such as Fighter or Rogue, or a Prestige Class. It is not recommended that Spheres of Might be made available until after 5th level.

Low Fantasy Setting: Players who are casters, may only enter classes with severely limited casting progression such as Rangers, Paladins, and Bloodragers. If utilizing Spheres of Power, players are limited to only Low-casters such as the Armorist and Mageknight. In a Low Fantasy Setting, players should have full access to basic talents from Spheres of Might, but are recommended to not have access to Legendary talents.

Standard Fantasy Setting: Players who are casters, may only enter classes with limited casting progression such as Alchemist, Bard, and Hunters. If utilizing Spheres of Power, players are limited to only Mid-casters such as the Hedgewitch and Symbiat. In a Standard Fantasy Setting, players should have full access to basic talents from Spheres of Might, but may have limited access to Legendary talents.

High Fantasy Setting: Players who are casters, may enter classes with full casting progression such as Cleric, Sorcerer, and Wizards. If utilizing Spheres of Power, players may be High-casters such as Incanter and Thaumaturge. In a High Fantasy Setting, players should have full access to both basic and legendary talents from Spheres of Might.

Diverging from these recommendations may very likely encourage a martial/caster disparity (i.e. give an unfair advantage of one over the other).

I've personally discussed how core should probably be divided up like that before, but I would never include such a structure in a product like this, because first and foremost, it's telling people how to play the game instead of giving them tools to play the game how they want, and that's simply a terrible idea for a 3pp company. For example, Dark Sun is generally considered a "gritty" campaign setting, but there's no restrictions on what classes the characters can play, simply consequences for playing certain types of characters.
Similarly, there are thousands of groups around the world who play in groups consisting of e.g. a cleric, fighter, rogue and wizard. Including a list that tells them how they're "doing it wrong", which is how that list will read to many people, is basically saying "Hello Paizo fans! I don't want your money!" But we do. We want a product that makes them happy, and makes other groups who don't feel those classes are compatible happy, and the best way to do that is to take the stuff that may be immersion breaking and separate it into a readily accessible but separate section so the GM can decide individually what's appropriate for their world. If swinging swords so hard you create damaging vacuums of air, slicing space and time with your sword, traveling overland via Hulk jumping, kicking the earth so hard you go airborne and keep yourself afloat with the force of subsequent kicks, etc. are things you feel martials should be able to do, those options are available, and they cost no more than most other level appropriate abilities for when they come online.

[NomGarret]

I think there's a pretty broad consensus on the most crazy stuff (cutting mountains) being legendary talents, it's just some of the middle cases of actions that can be done (like jumping) but are now extrapolated up to 10 or beyond that are the debate points. It's probably a discussion that can be tabled for a while until we have a thorough set of both standard and legendary talents to look at. Then we can pick out individual cases and talk about where they should fall; and I agree it's better to err on the side of too restrictive and reclassify as a standard than the other way around.

As to the bigger question, I'm perfectly happy to have talents which bolster skill use and build upon that system, and don't feel a need for some new rules structure to replace skills. More of what we've seen will be just fine by me.

[Sukebe]

I dont believe I ever explicitly said that being able to survive long distance falls was 'high fantasy'. Of-course we probably have different definitions of what is considered 'long distances'. For example, I know that people have frequently survived falls of 20k-30k feet. I also know about Felix Baumgartner who survived a 128k foot drop. In regards to Felix however, he had a specialized suit which would be best compared (in my opinion) to a magic item, so I dont think that really counts. Without the suit, Felix probably wouldn't have survived the fall due to his blood boiling. I guess what I am saying is that due to game physics a naked character can survive a 300 mile drop, while a naked real-world person would not.

I understand what you are saying, but the purpose of my post was to encourage GM's to prevent 'martial/caster disparity' or using the 'guy at the gym fallacy'. I want it made clear that martials can and should have 'nice things' despite of what paizo says. If a mage can fly at level 5, than a warrior should be able to do something just as impressive.

As it is right now:
Mage 1: Energy Blast that auto-hits or touch AC 1/round
Warrior 1: Weapon Attack 1/round (something the mage can also do with nearly same efficacy at level 1).
Mage 6: Energy Blast 1/round + Flight
Warrior 6: Weapon Attack 2/round
Mage 12: Energy Blast 1/round + Flight + Summon (which might be able to attack with nearly same efficacy as warrior of same level)
Warrior 12: Weapon Attack 3/round
Mage 18: Energy Blast 1/round + Flight + Summon + Shapechange
Warrior 12: Weapon Attack 4/round

I am not saying that warriors should be able to fly at level 5, but they should be able to contribute with something besides another attack. From what I understand, some of the "Legendary talents" aren't really all that 'legendary', unrealistic perhaps, but Extraordinary abilities exist and we dont live in a fantasy setting.

Jumping world record breaking distances is something that anyone can already do (with or without magic). What is the difference between jumping over 120 ft (something very possible to do in Pathfinder with only max ranks in Acrobatics, a couple feats, and a mundane non-magic pole) and jumping distances over a mile (something SoM labels as "legendary").

If exceeding our world record of long jump 3-4 times over isn't Extraordinary (because anyone CAN eventually do it) why is jumping larger distances considered Legendary (instead of simply Extraordinary).

Blindsight, Darkvision, Scent, and Spell Resistance are examples of Extraordinary abilities, jumping distances that exceed our real-life world records are not, and probably shouldn't really be considered 'Legendary'.



How is "will change how the world works a great deal" not 'world shattering'? Did I say say that Advanced talents breaks campaigns? No. And yes, I do understand that they (advanced talents) are a world building tool for the GM, but that does not change the fact that Advanced talents are mostly based off of Pathfinder spells that were often considered "world shattering", "problematic", or otherwise "disruptive" in one form or another.

I am not sure we can get anywhere in discussion if you think breaking world jumping record is something anyone can do...that seems like the very definition of extraordinary to me.

Overall I liked your break down of different types of campaigns in your original post, I just feel very differently about what should be considered extraordinary or legendary.

[Mehangel]

I am not sure we can get anywhere in discussion if you think breaking world jumping record is something anyone can do...that seems like the very definition of extraordinary to me.

Overall I liked your break down of different types of campaigns in your original post, I just feel very differently about what should be considered extraordinary or legendary.

When I say that 'anyone' can break world jumping record, I suppose I could've been more specific and said that I could probably build a 5th-level or higher character of any class (including commoner) and they can without the aid of any magic items, break world jumping records. The distance by which the character can break the world record grows in distance with each level beyond 5th.

The point being that unless your world is an E6 campaign, there is a very high probability of NPCs who can with little or no effort perform jumps that are otherwise "impossible" in our real-world. I bring this up because campaign settings such as Dark Sun have been mentioned by others (not necessarily yourself) as a setting where performing legendary actions might not be appropriate. Yet if Dark Sun supports (by having NPC's who are level 5 or higher), than NPC's are already capable of breaking world jumping records (and isn't difficult to accomplish). Because of how easy it is for characters to break world jumping record distances, I dont consider doing such as 'Extraordinary', and thus while I might call 'John Carter' jumping Extraordinary, I wouldn't consider it in the least Legendary.

[khadgar567]

I think legendery jumps are hulks domain not luke cages so jumping twenty to thirty times your movement rate can be legendery while few stories up to balcony is kina mundane thanks to ninja wannabes

[Troacctid]

That's sort of my point. Instead of a separate SoS system, just add more skill/utility powers to SoM.

I'd just continue to incorporate elements into the existing Spheres, by trying to think up "Okay so how would x near useless skill be useful in combat". Admittedly, I'd expect most to be either Athletics talents or be Legendary Talents.
I agree with this—roll them into SoM. They don't need their own book.

[EldritchWeaver]

I agree with this—roll them into SoM. They don't need their own book.

In the last update, they stated they would do that already as doing so was part of the original outline. They just forgot about it until now.

[Scowling Dragon]

Im interested in cool stuff. I don't care if its unrealistic, when at level 15 the magic casters can summon armies I wanna get some pretty amazing skills at the same level.

I want a skill system that doesn't become irrelevant to magic at higher levels.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I think a spheres of skill product would work best if it were directly integrated into SoM. SoP already provides combat and non-combat options, I don't see why non-magical characters should have their abilities divided into two products. Each SoM sphere could provide some combat and some skill ability, with some spheres being more one than the other.

I have to agree with A.J. here. The major downfall of non-casters has always been lack of utility and options fro problem solving outside of combat. Splitting skills and combat up seems weird since you could buff both at once. Spheres of Skill would make Athletics being in SoM weird too.

I'd say don't make SoS, just release Might Handbooks like you have MAgic in the past