Designing undead/skeleton varieties

[Vectros]

I'm going to begin a campaign involving a heavy use of Necromancy. I don't want combat to end up repetitious. The MM has like 3 skeleton and 3 undead varieties. I plan to have some combat encounter involving living creatures-but would like some way to get more of them. Stronger ones. Maybe a Necromancer raised up an undead/skeleton chimera. That kind of thing.

My first question is-has anyone developed a list of undead/skeleton creature varieties? Failing this, here's the idea I have right now. I'd like to keep difficulty ratings either the same, or within 1.

There seem to be some common themes for skeletons and undead. Skeletons have weakness to bludgeoning, poison invulnerability, exhaust and poisoned immunity. Int, Con, and wis look like they've been lowered. Minotaur AC looks lowered too. So I'd probably apply all of these to a variant I create for skeletons, lowering the challenge rating by 1 along with the modified stats.

Now for zombies. Based off the zombie ogre, lower the AC, but raise the hp. I guess it makes sense, since they're not alive they'd take more hits but would be easier to hit. Dex, Int, and Cha take hits. Immune to poison/poisoned, and they have undead fortitude. I'd probably keep their challenge rating the same.

Does this sound like a balanced outline for creating any sort of skeleton/zombie?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Your best bet for creating diverse Skeletons and Zombies would be to use the Skeleton NPC template in the Dungeon Master's Guide (I'm away from book, but I want to say it's something like page 289? Near the tail end for sure), which basically allows you to take any existing stat block and "Skeletonize"/"Zombify" it by modifying certain statistics.

[MrStabby]

Firstly can I offer some words of caution? Clerics get turn undead on a short rest basis. A LOT of encounters might be trivialised by this. Paladin smite abilities also do extra damage to undead as well so there are a couple of classes that will consistently perform very strongly through the campaign if it is undead themed. Add to that that these classes get more ready access to radiant damage which is often useful vs undead.

As for creatures, I would take a simple NPC like the thug and compare the stat differences between it and the skeleton and the zombie. This should tell you roughly how much to add or subtract as a template. Then go and apply this to anything you want a zombie or skeleton version of.

Personally I would add a few extra undead abilities to the campaign. Things like the vampire ability to control rats or wolves or bats or similar. This will at least give the PCs something to fight other than undead. Likewise some powerful enough "boss" creatures with turn resistance might help keep things fun if there is a cleric at the table.

[JellyPooga]

DMG pg.282 is your friend.

1) Pick a monster
2) Slap your choice of Skeleton or Zombie template on it.
3) ???
4) Profit!

The whole section on Creating Monsters (pg.273-282) is pretty handy for ballpark figures on CR. You'll still to do a bit of eyeballing, but on the whole it's a nice starting point that isn't too tricky to calculate.

[Vectros]

Oh didn't realize that zombify thing existed. It seems to state pretty much what I posted.

@MrStabby yep, I'm aware of this. One of the party members is actually a Paladin. To combat this, the undead will get various advantages. If they're away from the Necromancer, they will secretly get 1d6 on saving throws for the turning. If with a lower tier necromancer (2 tiers will be in this campaign), 1d8, and will take only 1/2 the additonal damage they'd get from radiant damage. If they're with the higher tier Necromancer, 1d10 for their saves+take no additional damage from Radiant+advantage when rolling saves. Also, I plan for most encounters to have several large waves. He'll most likely blow it early because they're surrounded-and then a new wave appears. He only gets to turn them once/rest.

Ultimately I think it makes sense that a Paladin will do better-but I want to make sure he doesn't completely nullify every encounter. Do you think these will be enough to prevent him from trivializing them?

[Specter]

Games like Resident Evil provide a great deal of help here. They have a good progression going on: first, the regular dumb zombies, then the red ones (fast guys that only die if you burn them), then hordes of zombies breaking out, and then zombies turning into quadruped killing machines that can hack your head off easily. A progression would make more sense for players to feel that they're getting into deeper waters every time.

[Flashy]

Oh didn't realize that zombify thing existed. It seems to state pretty much what I posted.

@MrStabby yep, I'm aware of this. One of the party members is actually a Paladin. To combat this, the undead will get various advantages. If they're away from the Necromancer, they will secretly get 1d6 on saving throws for the turning. If with a lower tier necromancer (2 tiers will be in this campaign), 1d8, and will take only 1/2 the additonal damage they'd get from radiant damage. If they're with the higher tier Necromancer, 1d10 for their saves+take no additional damage from Radiant+advantage when rolling saves. Also, I plan for most encounters to have several large waves. He'll most likely blow it early because they're surrounded-and then a new wave appears. He only gets to turn them once/rest.

Ultimately I think it makes sense that a Paladin will do better-but I want to make sure he doesn't completely nullify every encounter. Do you think these will be enough to prevent him from trivializing them?

You should be up front with the Paladin about this. Changing game mechanics to suit the tone of a campaign is great, but the players shouldn't be making choices based on a totally flawed understanding of what the mechanics will be.

[Coffee_Dragon]

It could be worked into the story. The necromancer has struck a deal with a hag to weave an enchantment that makes the undead tough to radiant damage. Once the PCs catch on to this they can track down and defeat the hag, and then the paladin can cut loose (but by then they will be attacked by 3d12 dracoliches at the same time so haha).

[Kane0]

You can get ideas fairly easily from looking back over previous edition MMs.

Burning skeletons: Immune to fire, additional fire damage on hit
Boneyard skeletons: Cobbled together from multiple skeletons, often feature extra pair of arms, some are particularly nasty with ability to 'assimilate' additional bones from victims.
Bloody skeletons: regenerate unless subject to radiant damage or consecrated after being dropped to 0
Plague zombies: Carry disease and infect those they attack
Dread Zombies: Faster and tougher than regular zombies, sometimes with a fear or prone effect thrown in
Slime Zombies: Partially liquified, resists physical attacks and is immune to acid, plus deals additional acid damage on hit
Runescarred undead: Able to use a small selection of pre-determined spells
Drowned: Undead born from deaths at sea, able to suffocate victims
Mohrgs: Smart, sadistic skeletons with tentacle-like guts they can use as reach weapons to paralyse victims
Salt Mummy: not slow and wrapped up with a vulnerability to fire like the regular kind, exposure to water causes severe damage.

There you go, 10 nasty surprises to throw at your unwitting PCs.

Edit: Bonus from my own DM
Boneclaws are toughened skeletons that have an extending arm attack they use to drag you in closer to them, or drag themselves closer to you.
Deathburst undead result in necrotic explosions when destroyed

[Vectros]

You should be up front with the Paladin about this. Changing game mechanics to suit the tone of a campaign is great, but the players shouldn't be making choices based on a totally flawed understanding of what the mechanics will be.

I'm planning to make it blatantly obvious in the first conversation. A fellow Paladin will inform the party that their powers don't seem as effective-they still work, just not as much as normal. As I said in my previous post, the severity will depend on if Necromancers are there and how powerful they are. Would you consider this unfair? Otherwise it'll probably end up far too easy, and they'll mop the floor with everything.

[Kane0]

Regular undead (Mooks): No bonuses
Enhanced Undead OR regular undead led by lesser necromancer: +1d4 on turn saves
Enhanced undead led by lesser necromancer: +1d6 on turn saves
Enhanced undead led by greater necromancer: +1d8 on turn saves, resistance to radiant damage

Edit: Better yet, make these specific necromancer abilities. More entertaining and tactical when counters are active abilities rather than passive buffs. For example:
Lesser necromancers can use a 2nd level spell slot or higher as a reaction when someone turns undead, rolling a spell attack versus the caster's spell DC to negate the turn attempt.
Greater necromancers have the same ability and can also spend a reaction when an undead under their control takes radiant damage, halving it. Or alternatively can bestow radiant damage resistance to one or a few undead under his control until the end of his next turn as a bonus action if you're worried about too many reactions.

[Flashy]

I'm planning to make it blatantly obvious in the first conversation. A fellow Paladin will inform the party that their powers don't seem as effective-they still work, just not as much as normal. As I said in my previous post, the severity will depend on if Necromancers are there and how powerful they are. Would you consider this unfair? Otherwise it'll probably end up far too easy, and they'll mop the floor with everything.

As long as it's an explicit change in the world I think it's fine. I was just uncertain about secret changes the player wouldn't be aware of in any context.

[Provo]

My players really liked one creature I made for a Necro campaign:

Large or huge skeleton made from several corpses. Has a grab attack where his rib cage opens up to engulf a target. Inside, the target takes crushing damage until unconscious.

The Necromancers used these monstrosities to collect more sacrifices. I don't have a stat block but just take a boring large monster of the CR you want, and give it a grab attack.

[Wymmerdann]

Enhanced undead led by greater necromancer: +1d8 on turn saves, resistance to radiant damage

I'd be iffy about making radiant damage clearly worse than all other damage types. It's too jarring and robs divine characters of one of their important roles in a party, which is to counter undead.

Resistance is a big deal, and you don't want to undermine one of your pc's in a character-defining battle.

[Kane0]

That's why I prefer to give the necromancers discrete abilities to do these kinds of things. Better than blanket effects most of the time, even if it's an aura.

That said, greater necromancers supposedly shouldn't be encountered until later on, presumably at a time when radiant damage isn't the only effective means of dealing with undead. And what kind of self respecting master necromancer doesn't reinforce his legion of undead against the most commonly used weapon against it? That's like a spellcasting dragon that doesn't choose absorb elements or protection from energy.

[Vectros]

I'd be iffy about making radiant damage clearly worse than all other damage types. It's too jarring and robs divine characters of one of their important roles in a party, which is to counter undead.

Resistance is a big deal, and you don't want to undermine one of your pc's in a character-defining battle.

I actually wrote that wrong. The effect I want to pull is 1/2 the EXTRA damage. So typically a smite deals 2d8, right? Against undead, 3d8? Against these, 2d8 normal, 1d8 resisted. So it's not weaker than others-it's still stronger, just not *as* strong. The hardest part will probably be conveying this.

[Kane0]

Indeed, if I were DMing that would just confuse both my players and myself.

You could make it as simple as 'reduces radiant damage by X' instead of straight half, plenty still goes through but not as much as you might expect.
Just make sure it's not as much as what your average radiant cantrip would deal, I wouldn't go beyond 5 per tier unless they are superboosted by the shadow plane or whatever.

[Potato_Priest]

necromancer doesn't reinforce his legion of undead against the most commonly used weapon against it? That's like a spellcasting dragon that doesn't choose absorb elements or protection from energy.

I think if I was a dragon, freedom of movement would be my first pick, followed by stoneskin. Are elements used frequently against dragons where you come from?

[MrStabby]

Oh didn't realize that zombify thing existed. It seems to state pretty much what I posted.

@MrStabby yep, I'm aware of this. One of the party members is actually a Paladin. To combat this, the undead will get various advantages. If they're away from the Necromancer, they will secretly get 1d6 on saving throws for the turning. If with a lower tier necromancer (2 tiers will be in this campaign), 1d8, and will take only 1/2 the additonal damage they'd get from radiant damage. If they're with the higher tier Necromancer, 1d10 for their saves+take no additional damage from Radiant+advantage when rolling saves. Also, I plan for most encounters to have several large waves. He'll most likely blow it early because they're surrounded-and then a new wave appears. He only gets to turn them once/rest.

Ultimately I think it makes sense that a Paladin will do better-but I want to make sure he doesn't completely nullify every encounter. Do you think these will be enough to prevent him from trivializing them?

Honestly, I think encounter design might be the better way to handle this. More difficult terrain and movement impediments to cause the paladin to resort to ranged weapons on more turns, Illusions among the dead to potentially trigger abilities at times that are not that effective and so on. More attack rolls and fewer saves weakens the effect of the Paladin's aura and so on.

THis isn't to say that the paladin should never have use for their abilities - just that the other party members should be brought up to a similar level such that everyone can have fun.

I wouldn't just counter with more undead - instead of the Paladin being the most powerful party member they are now needed for survival. Those extra undead they killed due to their smite ability - the party couldn't have survived them. More stuff makes the paladin more, not less important.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Just gonna leave this (http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2017/02/necromancy-spells.html) here, in case anyone wants it. :smallwink:

[Dr. Cliché]

What about having skeletons with levels in wizard or sorcerer?

Basically, skeletal mages that act as lieutenants.

[MrStabby]

What about having skeletons with levels in wizard or sorcerer?

Basically, skeletal mages that act as lieutenants.

If you did that you might want to give them some kind of abjuration spell that protects undead in the area from Turn/Destroy undead. Or a spell that protects against radiant damage.

It would certainly add an interesting dynamic to encounters if killing off a lieutenant was a very important step to making the encounter easier.

[Vectros]

@Ninja_Prawn I like that list, but most of those are super super weak. I'm looking for undead with more strength to give more variety, since the standard skeleton isn't all that tough. But thanks for the link, I'm going to check that site out and maybe find another list.

@Dr. Cliche I like this idea. I think there's a Drow mage CR 6 which would make for a decent challenge (4 level 5 players) as a sort of mini boss/elite monster.

[Quickblade]

A magic using skeleton is a Lich

[Dr. Cliché]

A magic using skeleton is a Lich

Except that they don't have phylacteries. And aren't likely to have anywhere near the magic ability of a lich.

[EvilAnagram]

I came up with a lot of different undead for my campaign:

Tomb Guardians: Four-armed skeletal monstrosities wielding a scimitar in each hand. Take your basic skeleton, give him four attacks, and give him 60 HP. I also gave him a Parry reaction to add 1d6 to his AC against one attack. He's a decent early boss, and he stays effective in mixed groups for a while.

Blazing Bones: Burnt black skeletons that exude heat. Take a basic skeleton, give it fire immunity, a 5 damage 5' fire aura, and a 2d6 fire and bludgeoning bone cudgel. When it dies, it explodes into a 5' radius ball of 3d6 fire damage. They're basically suicide skeletons, and the party learns quickly to adjust tactics for them.

Belchers: give a zombie a couple extra hit dice and an attack that lets them spit a sticky green ball of acidic goo for 2d4 acid damage . It deals the damage every round and takes an action to remove. Really play up the gross descriptions for these guys.

Simple things like putting a skeleton template on a knight work too.

My most effective method of creeping out the players was a beefed up zombie that went down fairly easily. The thing is, it never stopped moving or begging them to kill it. I described every attack realistically, and even after the Paladin smites him in the face I told them his throat gurgle in wordless pain. They walked away very disturbed.

[Vectros]

I came up with a lot of different undead for my campaign:

Tomb Guardians: Four-armed skeletal monstrosities wielding a scimitar in each hand. Take your basic skeleton, give him four attacks, and give him 60 HP. I also gave him a Parry reaction to add 1d6 to his AC against one attack. He's a decent early boss, and he stays effective in mixed groups for a while.

Blazing Bones: Burnt black skeletons that exude heat. Take a basic skeleton, give it fire immunity, a 5 damage 5' fire aura, and a 2d6 fire and bludgeoning bone cudgel. When it dies, it explodes into a 5' radius ball of 3d6 fire damage. They're basically suicide skeletons, and the party learns quickly to adjust tactics for them.

Belchers: give a zombie a couple extra hit dice and an attack that lets them spit a sticky green ball of acidic goo for 2d4 acid damage . It deals the damage every round and takes an action to remove. Really play up the gross descriptions for these guys.

Simple things like putting a skeleton template on a knight work too.

My most effective method of creeping out the players was a beefed up zombie that went down fairly easily. The thing is, it never stopped moving or begging them to kill it. I described every attack realistically, and even after the Paladin smites him in the face I told them his throat gurgle in wordless pain. They walked away very disturbed.

I like these! What CR did you use for them?

[EvilAnagram]

I like these! What CR did you use for them?

I think the Temple Guardians are CR 4, the Blazing Bones are CR 2, Belchers are CR 1.