Dex-centric build for webcomic

[danielxcutter]

Well... Yeah, this is the guy with a webcomic in the making. Remember my asking for advice for an epic-level adventurer party? I've got six of the seven reasonably planned out, but I'm not totally sure on what build the seventh should have beside having Dexterity as a primary stat.

For reference, here are the other six:

*Human multiclass martial adept, based on Darrin's Archon of Nine build. Leader.

*Elan Ranger/Psion(Egoist)/Slayer gish, using Rapidstrike and Claws of the Beast for lots of damage in melee and offensive powers for ranged combat. May also have the True Healer ACF.

*Elf Wizard/Druid/Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge with double 9ths.

*Half-Orc Fighter/Barbarian with charger build and Spirit Lion Totem + Trapkiller ACFs.

*Warforged NG Incarnate. Skillmonkey, meatshield, and whatever else Incarnates do well.

*(probably) Human Warlock, with Glaivelock build and focusing on blast shapes/essences.


Obviously, thematic overlapping is not allowed.


I'm considering a Daring Outlaw build for the final member, but I dunno, I'm not sure if it's good enough. Any alternative options are welcome.

[Rebel7284]

What DO incarnates do well? I was under impression that for the most part, they really don't scale well, and this is epic....

As far as your actual build question, well Dex is a pretty good stat for anyone to have. Hit and Run variant fighter and Shadow Blade make it do some heavy lifting in combat too.

Gloura has +10 Dex. Take a level of bard (or two levels of Inspire Courage Paladin for saves of "lol") and then Sublime Chord. Does end up needing both Dex and Cha.

There are Swift Hunter Archers for lots of bonus damage on those shots.

Arcane Archer 2 on that Gloura->sublime chord build?

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho a swiftblade would fit the webcomic. A swiftblade relies on Dex per description (even if it is not really necessary but it fits the fluff). The theme is nice and it offers a few nice abilities around haste and time stop.

You might want to take a small race since your party is missing one. And every party should have a small guy to pick on^^

IIRC you are not a fan of true dragon DWK cheese. Cause they could still get 9th lvl spells (with max cheese) and would have access to "Alternate Form" feat (small/medium humanoid/animal 3/day infinite duration) & Half-Dragon Form feat.

On the other hand a typical DW Drow as Swiftblade (hello Drizzit) would be a cool stereotype too^^.

edit: btw, aren't you going for a Dex focused Glaive/Blast -lock? But if you are looking for Dex *fluff* that might be the wrong choice and the swiftblade the better one.

[SirNibbles]

You could do a TWF Kusari-gama AoO build. Stop enemies from getting close to your Theurge with 6 attacks (or 12 attacks if you have 4 arms like a Thri-Keen) every time they move through a square you threaten. Also good for clearing away large numbers of enemies in general with unlimited AoOs from Imp. Combat Reflexes.

[flappeercraft]

What about a Swifthunter build?

[Troacctid]

How about a Rogue-type with Mythic Shadow and Lingering Damage?

[danielxcutter]

Ah, I see that people have already thought of the alternative ideas I had while I was away - Swift Hunter and TWF AoO Kusari-gama builds.

So here are my three options.

-Daring Outlaw: Really needs Lingering Strike and Perfect TWF, but still decent. Has the minor drawback of not having native ways of rendering opponents flatfooted, but can be worked around.

-Swift Hunter: Has the advantages of working on most enemies if favored enemies are chosen properly and not needing items to get running by making Tumble checks to make 10-foot steps. Has the major disadvantage of using Ranger, which overlaps with the Slayer.

-Kusami-gara TWF AoO build: Would be nice, but Sneak AoO is difficult to squeeze in. Not bad, but not perfect for now.

[Troacctid]

Has the minor drawback of not having native ways of rendering opponents flatfooted
Mythic Shadow, yo.

[Thurbane]

Catfolk Daring Outlaw build into Jaunter?

[SirNibbles]

Ah, I see that people have already thought of the alternative ideas I had while I was away - Swift Hunter and TWF AoO Kusari-gama builds.

So here are my three options.

-Daring Outlaw: Really needs Lingering Strike and Perfect TWF, but still decent. Has the minor drawback of not having native ways of rendering opponents flatfooted, but can be worked around.

-Swift Hunter: Has the advantages of working on most enemies if favored enemies are chosen properly and not needing items to get running by making Tumble checks to make 10-foot steps. Has the major disadvantage of using Ranger, which overlaps with the Slayer.

-Kusami-gara TWF AoO build: Would be nice, but Sneak AoO is difficult to squeeze in. Not bad, but not perfect for now.

It looks like you want to get sneaky. My personal favourites:

1. You can splash 3 levels of Sidewinder Monk with the Martial and Invisible Fist ACFs for 2 fighter feats, +1d6 sneak, and, of course, Invisible Fist's invisibility. This limits you to being Lawful.

2. A 3 level dip of Cleric 1/Skullclan Hunter 2 will get you automatic sneak damage (no worrying about flank or flatfooted or immunity to crit/sneak) against undead with every attack. It's bit limited, but worth it if you are focusing sneak anyhow. Skullclan Hunter 3 adds +1d6 Sneak. Skullclan Hunter limits you to being Good.

Cleric 1 also allows you to grab Sacred Outlaw, adding your Cleric levels to your Rogue levels to determine sneak dice (even if you have no Rogue levels and pick up the 2d6 prereq in some other way). A few levels of Cleric for Divine Power plus other generally useful buffs never hurts, especially when you're getting full sneak progression as if you were a Rogue.

[danielxcutter]

What DO incarnates do well? I was under impression that for the most part, they really don't scale well, and this is epic....

Well yeah, I guess, but power is only one factor. OotS has a cleric, a wizard, and a ranger with a dip in barbarian and a Wis penalty in the same party; this party probably isn't that bad.

Plus, most Incarnum users are freaking brick walls. A joke in the comic world is that there are two situations in which the half-orc fighter/barbarian can't smash something: it's either physically indestructible, or it's the Warforged Incarnate in a clever disguise.


How about a Rogue-type with Mythic Shadow and Lingering Damage?

Lingering Damage; okay. Epic Destinies in general, however, don't feel right for some reason... Plus there are six destinies and seven epic characters. :smallannoyed:


Catfolk Daring Outlaw build into Jaunter?

Daring Outlaw builds don't really have that many feats to burn imo. I suppose a classic Dervish build with Jaunter could work for a different character, but no promises.


It looks like you want to get sneaky. My personal favourites:

1. You can splash 3 levels of Sidewinder Monk with the Martial and Invisible Fist ACFs for 2 fighter feats, +1d6 sneak, and, of course, Invisible Fist's invisibility. This limits you to being Lawful.

2. A 3 level dip of Cleric 1/Skullclan Hunter 2 will get you automatic sneak damage (no worrying about flank or flatfooted or immunity to crit/sneak) against undead with every attack. It's bit limited, but worth it if you are focusing sneak anyhow. Skullclan Hunter 3 adds +1d6 Sneak. Skullclan Hunter limits you to being Good.

Cleric 1 also allows you to grab Sacred Outlaw, adding your Cleric levels to your Rogue levels to determine sneak dice (even if you have no Rogue levels and pick up the 2d6 prereq in some other way). A few levels of Cleric for Divine Power plus other generally useful buffs never hurts, especially when you're getting full sneak progression as if you were a Rogue.

Yeah... No. I don't really want any more casters, and a Cleric is more Wis-centric than Dex. Monk is... Well, Monk. Plus I wasn't really going for "sneaky build" that much. Sorry.

[danielxcutter]

Bumping. Please respond.

[Gruftzwerg]

Yeah... No. I don't really want any more casters, and a Cleric is more Wis-centric than Dex. Monk is... Well, Monk. Plus I wasn't really going for "sneaky build" that much. Sorry.

Getting hard to satisfy your needs. Let's resume what you are looking for:

- Dex focused
- no caster
- no monk
- no stealthy = no rogue
- already a ranger in party
- already a glaivelock i.p.

So what's left? Not much I guess.. Duelist? Soulknife? Or maybe the already mentioned *Drizzit* (w/wo swiftblade)

[danielxcutter]

Getting hard to satisfy your needs. Let's resume what you are looking for:

- Dex focused
- no caster
- no monk
- no stealthy = no rogue
- already a ranger in party
- already a glaivelock i.p.

So what's left? Not much I guess.. Duelist? Soulknife? Or maybe the already mentioned *Drizzit* (w/wo swiftblade)

Actually, no stealthy =/= no rogue. Rogues can still get Sneak Attacks through flanks, although stealth does help; it's just not the main focus I'm looking for. Which is why Daring Outlaw looks more and more prospective by the second.

[WhamBamSam]

Getting hard to satisfy your needs. I feel you. He had an earlier thread on the same topic and I threw every Dex-centric idea I could come up with (which was a lot of things spanning everything from a dagger slinging elf, to a Decisive Strike/Double Hit monk, to a webslinging trapmaster) and he didn't seem to want any of them.

If you're interested in the Kusuri-Gama idea, you might do better with a Cavestalker using Spiked Chains. You have to take the penalties for TWFing with 1-handed weapons, but they deal more damage and are Shadow Hand weapons for Shadow Blade. There are a number of Darkvision races with Dex bonuses. Air Goblin has +4 Dex, so that might be noteworthy.

I'm still not sure what it was you didn't like about the cocktail of Hit-and-Run Fighter, Hand Crossbow Focus, Dead Eye, and Crossbow Sniper for 2.5*Dex to damage with hand crossbows and free action reloading that I suggested in the last thread. A Lesser Drow Fighter 2 can have all that online and you can spend the remaining levels on whatever you like.

[danielxcutter]

I feel you. He had an earlier thread on the same topic and I threw every Dex-centric idea I could come up with (which was a lot of things spanning everything from a dagger slinging elf, to a Decisive Strike/Double Hit monk, to a webslinging trapmaster) and he didn't seem to want any of them.

If you're interested in the Kusuri-Gama idea, you might do better with a Cavestalker using Spiked Chains. You have to take the penalties for TWFing with 1-handed weapons, but they deal more damage and are Shadow Hand weapons for Shadow Blade. There are a number of Darkvision races with Dex bonuses. Air Goblin has +4 Dex, so that might be noteworthy.

I'm still not sure what it was you didn't like about the cocktail of Hit-and-Run Fighter, Hand Crossbow Focus, Dead Eye, and Crossbow Sniper for 2.5*Dex to damage with hand crossbows and free action reloading that I suggested in the last thread. A Lesser Drow Fighter 2 can have all that online and you can spend the remaining levels on whatever you like.

Actually, I was probably going to go with Daring Outlaw if I hadn't seen this post, but yeah, I dunno why I didn't like that crossbow fighter build at first. Plus Hit-And-Run Fighter doesn't say that you have to be a Drow by RAW...

Hmmm, would that "cocktail" build or a TWFing Daring Outlaw build be more able to keep up with the others power-wise? Both seem nice to me.

Sorry if I'm being annoying, but I've finally narrowed it down to the two options in this post. It's either one or the other now. I promise.

[Troacctid]

Epic Destinies in general, however, don't feel right for some reason... Plus there are six destinies and seven epic characters. :smallannoyed:
Don't be silly, of course they feel right. They're great. You should totally use 'em.

[danielxcutter]

Don't be silly, of course they feel right. They're great. You should totally use 'em.

I mean, yes they're super cool, it's just the eensy weensy tiny bit that there are six destinies and seven epic characters. And I dislike overlapping.

Of course that doesn't mean that I'm not going to use them at all... ;)

[Troacctid]

*waves hand dismissively* Nobody said all of them had to have Epic Destinies. They're just feats. You gave your Barbarian an animal totem without giving different animal totems to the other six, didn't you?

[Ruethgar]

A trip cleaving parry build could be fun. Plus it would probably have room for Jaunter if you wanted that.

[danielxcutter]

*waves hand dismissively* Nobody said all of them had to have Epic Destinies. They're just feats. You gave your Barbarian an animal totem without giving different animal totems to the other six, didn't you?

One, all Barbarians technically have totems - the default is the Jaguar. Okay, technically I gave mine a *spirit* totem, but that's just an ACF.

Two, Epic Destinies... don't really seem like "just feats" to me, if I may say so. They're cool, and to be honest if there were seven or more I'd jump at them like a Warblade with Charging Pounce(or was it Pouncing Charge? Sry, AFB), but to be honest, that's exactly why I'd been goint "all or nothing" about them... And there are too few for "all".

Note: I do have a couple ideas for characters with EDs, though. Which ones I won't say(cause y'know, spoilers), but yes, they're going to show up eventually.

[danielxcutter]

A trip cleaving parry build could be fun. Plus it would probably have room for Jaunter if you wanted that.

Uh... I require context. A lot of context.

[Gruftzwerg]

A trip cleaving parry build could be fun. Plus it would probably have room for Jaunter if you wanted that.

I was thinking of a tripper too, but imho it's a bad idea for a Dex build. For tripping you need Str and/or size. Both go against the fluff of a Dex build imho. If OP wasn't so focused on Dex, there would be many options, but Dex...
There aren't many Dex builds out there. And there where you would expect it, there are still more Str focused build out there (see ranger and particular rogue). So the question is, why it has to be Dex? Wouldn't an agile build/theme not be enough? Does it really have to be Dex main stat?

edit: imho build the Warlock Dex focused and think about something else for the last party spot ;)

[danielxcutter]

I was thinking of a tripper too, but imho it's a bad idea for a Dex build. For tripping you need Str and/or size. Both go against the fluff of a Dex build imho. If OP wasn't so focused on Dex, there would be many options, but Dex...
There aren't many Dex builds out there. And there where you would expect it, there are still more Str focused build out there (see ranger and particular rogue). So the question is, why it has to be Dex? Wouldn't an agile build/theme not be enough? Does it really have to be Dex main stat?

Uh yeah, that's kind of part of the theme the epic party has going on; that is, having a primary stat.

Leader: MAD

Elan Slayer: Int

Elf Arcane Hierophant: Wis/Int(yeah, a little out of step here, I know)

Half-Orc Barbarian: Str

Warforged Incarnate: Con

Glaivelock: Cha

Final Member: Dex



Like this.

[Gruftzwerg]

"The Champion of Corellon Larethian" in Races of the Wild has a nice Dex synergy.

Elegant Strike (@lvl2) adds Dex (+Str) to damage when you use:
longsword, rapier, elven thinblade, elven
lightblade, elven court sword, or scimitar

Maybe we could build something good out of it.

Elven Thinblade & lightblade have nice crit ranges. Since we get dmg from Dex, we can go DW with max Dex and ignore the regular Str ranger DW builds. I guess we'll need fighter to get all the needed feats.

Another option would be a Dex based charger with an elven court sword (and some crit focus).

[danielxcutter]

"The Champion of Corellon Larethian" in Races of the Wild has a nice Dex synergy.

Elegant Strike (@lvl2) adds Dex (+Str) to damage when you use:
longsword, rapier, elven thinblade, elven
lightblade, elven court sword, or scimitar

Maybe we could build something good out of it.

Elven Thinblade & lightblade have nice crit ranges. Since we get dmg from Dex, we can go DW with max Dex and ignore the regular Str ranger DW builds. I guess we'll need fighter to get all the needed feats.

Another option would be a Dex based charger with an elven court sword (and some crit focus).

As a character concept: good, much better than I expected. Not sure what DW means again, but it doesn't seem bad.

As a build idea for the current character: Check the Arcane Hierophant entry again.

tl;dr Not for *this* character, but could certainly be used for a different one.

[Gruftzwerg]

As a character concept: good, much better than I expected. Not sure what DW means again, but it doesn't seem bad.
DW = Dual Wield
you could use the PRC for either a DW-build or 2h-charge-build. Both would work well (for a melee build).


As a build idea for the current character: Check the Arcane Hierophant entry again.

tl;dr Not for *this* character, but could certainly be used for a different one.

?hm? don't get what you mean? What has the Arcane Hierophant to do with this?

edit: or do you want different races as further restriction for your party?

[danielxcutter]

DW = Dual Wield
you could use the PRC for either a DW-build or 2h-charge-build. Both would work well (for a melee build).

Ah, you meant TWF. I see.


?hm? don't get what you mean? What has the Arcane Hierophant to do with this?

edit: or do you want different races as further restriction for your party?

Yeah... Human is the sole exception.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Swashbuckler 4/ Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) 16+ that uses Martial Study + Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance to qualify for Daring Outlaw, which gives them sneak attack for all of the Rogue levels. That gets almost as many bonus feats as a Fighter, and more sneak attack than a single-classed a Rogue, plus you can still get Penetrating Strike at Rogue 3, and you qualify for Shadow Blade. You'll have a +16 BAB at 20th level for four attacks/round.

The special property on a Sword of Subtlety (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#swordofSubtlety) costs +20k, so give them two +X Speed Subtlety Shortswords (offhand doesn't need Speed with Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting). Since they're making a lot of attacks, I'd include Wounding and Marrowcrushing (BoVD) so they deal 2 Con damage per hit, and Magebane in Complete Arcane is always a safe bet. Be sure to give them max UMD, put a wand chamber in each weapon, one has a Wand of (Extended) Wraithstrike and the other a Wand of Wings of Cover. Per the Rules Compendium any wand, staff, or scroll has an activation time matching the casting time of the spell being used.

[Gruftzwerg]

Ah, you meant TWF. I see.



Yeah... Human is the sole exception.

yeah i meant TWF.

What about an Half-Elf? Would it pass your restriction?^^
It would still fit the Champion of Corellon Larethian at least.

edit: Changeling with the Racial Emulation feat would be another option to get access.

[danielxcutter]

Swashbuckler 4/ Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) 16+ that uses Martial Study + Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance to qualify for Daring Outlaw, which gives them sneak attack for all of the Rogue levels. That gets almost as many bonus feats as a Fighter, and more sneak attack than a single-classed a Rogue, plus you can still get Penetrating Strike at Rogue 3, and you qualify for Shadow Blade. You'll have a +16 BAB at 20th level for four attacks/round.

That's waaay too iffy to use without someone calling BS on that, sorry. I do see that Penetrating Strike is a given on Daring Outlaw builds though, so there's that.


The special property on a Sword of Subtlety (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#swordofSubtlety) costs +20k, so give them two +X Speed Subtlety Shortswords (offhand doesn't need Speed with Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting). Since they're making a lot of attacks, I'd include Wounding and Marrowcrushing (BoVD) so they deal 2 Con damage per hit, and Magebane in Complete Arcane is always a safe bet. Be sure to give them max UMD, put a wand chamber in each weapon, one has a Wand of (Extended) Wraithstrike and the other a Wand of Wings of Cover. Per the Rules Compendium any wand, staff, or scroll has an activation time matching the casting time of the spell being used.

If I decide to go with Daring Outlaw, yeah this is pretty good advice. Even if I don't, a lot of that also sounds useful on a Crossbow Sniper build. Wounding FTW!


yeah i meant TWF.

What about an Half-Elf? Would it pass your restriction?^^
It would still fit the Champion of Corellon Larethian at least.

edit: Changeling with the Racial Emulation feat would be another option to get access.

Eh... Nah, sry. I've narrowed my options down to Daring Outlaw or a Hit and Run Fighter Crossbow Sniper build, plus Half-Elves are still half too much of an elf for me.

[WhamBamSam]

Actually, I was probably going to go with Daring Outlaw if I hadn't seen this post, but yeah, I dunno why I didn't like that crossbow fighter build at first. Plus Hit-And-Run Fighter doesn't say that you have to be a Drow by RAW...

Hmmm, would that "cocktail" build or a TWFing Daring Outlaw build be more able to keep up with the others power-wise? Both seem nice to me.

Sorry if I'm being annoying, but I've finally narrowed it down to the two options in this post. It's either one or the other now. I promise.These things happen.

Lesser Drow isn't there to qualify for Hit-and-Run. It's there so you can treat the hand crossbow as a martial weapon. Human with EWP (Hand Crossbow) is feat neutral, but Lesser Drow has +2 Dex.

As for which will work better, that depends in large part on the sort of enemies the party fights and what the remaining 22 levels of the crossbow drow end up being. Both have a little bit of trouble with creatures immune to crits, but if your damage is primarily sneak attack based you'll have less trouble getting it through with spells and ACFs. Crossbow Sniper at least works on creatures immune to crits, but Hit-and-Run tactics and Dead Eye do not. Of course, you can do a lot with 22 levels, so you could fit a lot of sneak attack or whatever else in there as well.

[Darrin]

I've narrowed my options down to Daring Outlaw or a Hit and Run Fighter Crossbow Sniper build, plus Half-Elves are still half too much of an elf for me.

Ok, so Daring Outlaw first.

Race: Human, Azurin, Strongheart Halfling
1) Rogue 1. Feat: Craven. Bonus: Travel Devotion.
2) Swashbuckler 1. Bonus: Weapon Finesse.
3) Rogue 2. Feat: TWF.
4) Rogue 3. Trade Trap Sense -> Penetrating Strike ACF (Ravenloft or Dungeonscape)
5) Swashbuckler 2.
6) Swashbuckler 3. Feat: Daring Outlaw.
7) Hit-and-Run Fighter 1. Bonus: Improved TWF.
8) Rogue 4.
9) Swashbuckler 4. Feat: Staggering Strike.
10) Swashbuckler 5.
11) Swashbuckler 6.
12) Swashbuckler 7. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2).
13) Swashbuckler 8.
14) Swashbuckler 9.
15) Swashbuckler 10. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3).
16) Swashbuckler 11.
17) Swashbuckler 12.
18) Swashbuckler 13. Feat: Greater TWF.
19) Swashbuckler 14.
20) Swashbuckler 15.

Biggest complaint there is it's kinda boring... there's really not much to do outside of TWF, and maybe some skill stuff. You can certainly improve things by substituting two Swashbuckler levels for Swordsage 2. You "lose" 1d6 sneak attack but then gain +2d6 via Assassin's stance. And you can then throw in a Cloistered Cleric level for Travel Devotion, which frees up a couple feats. So we can take Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium) and maybe Extra Turning.

Then we have Cossbow Sniper Swift Hunter:

Race: Human, Azurin, Strongheart Halfing, or Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion), Human: PB Shot, Bonus: Track. Wild Empathy -> Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion). Favored Enemy: Undead.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot.
3) Scout 1. Feat: Rapid Reload. Skirmish 1d6
4) Hit-and-Run Fighter 1. Bonus: Weapon Focus: Light Crossbow.
5) Scout 2. Skirmish 1d6.
6) Scout 3. Feat: Crossbow Sniper (PHBII). Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
7) Scout 4. Bonus: Swift Hunter. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
8) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
9) Ranger 4. Bonus: Manyshot (CotW ACF), Feat: Improved Rapid Shot. Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII) or Spiritual Guide ACF (Complete Champion).
10) Ranger 5. Favored Enemy: Constructs. Skirmish 3d6AC+2.
11) Dragon Devotee 1.
12) Dragon Devotee 2. Feat: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
13) Dragon Devotee 3. 1st level Sorcerer casting (pick 2 divination spells, such as true strike and maybe sniper's shot.
14) Dragon Devotee 4. Skirmish 5d6AC+2/7d6AC+4
15) Unseen Seer 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Skirmish 6d6AC+2/8d6AC+4
16) Unseen Seer 2.
17) Unseen Seer 3.
18) Unseen Seer 4. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3). Skirmish 7d6AC+2/9d6AC+4
19) Highland Stalker 1.
20) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 8d6AC+2/10d6AC+4

Or if you prefer something more Ranger-y...

Race: Silverbrow Human or Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion), Human: PB Shot, Bonus: Track. Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion). Favored Enemy: Undead.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot.
3) Scout 1. Feat: Rapid Reload. Skirmish 1d6
4) Hit-and-Run Fighter 1. Bonus: Weapon Focus: Light Crossbow.
5) Scout 2. Skirmish 1d6.
6) Scout 3. Feat: Crossbow Sniper (PHBII). Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
7) Scout 4. Bonus: Swift Hunter. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
8) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
9) Ranger 4. Bonus: Precise Shot (CotW ACF, Complete Champion), Feat: Improved Skirmish. Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII) or Spiritual Guide ACF (Complete Champion). Skirmish 2d6AC+2/4d6AC+4.
10) Ranger 5. Favored Enemy: Constructs. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4.
11) Ranger 6. Bonus: Manyshot.
12) Ranger 7. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Skirmish 3d6AC+3/5d6AC+5.
13) Ranger 8. Bonus: Improved Rapid Shot (CotW).
14) Ranger 9. Evasion. Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5
15) Highland Stalker 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3).
16) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 5d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
17) Ranger 10. Favored Enemy: Elementals.
18) Ranger 11. Feat: Dragonfire Strike. Bonus: Improved Precise Shot. Bonus: Improved Favored Enemy (CotW). Skirmish 6d6AC+4/8d6AC+6.
19) Ranger 12.
20) Ranger 13. Camouflage. Skirmish 7d6AC+4/9d6AC+6.

Hmm. Maybe trade Dragonfire Strike for Dead Eye, or maybe add it with flaws.

[WhamBamSam]

Rapid Reload also works, though it's feat-neutral with a Lesser Drow using Hand Crossbow Focus if you're going for Dead Eye, since you need Weapon Focus anyway.

Here's my stub for for a crossbow swift hunter. I did make one mistake earlier, and not realize that Point Blank Shot was a prerequisite for Dead Eye, though you'll have PBS anyway, so it's not a big deal.

Female Lesser Drow Half-Fiend Template Class 1
1. Cloistered Cleric (Inquisition Domain) 1 - Magic In The Blood, Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion
2. Hit-and-Run Fighter 1 - Hand Crossbow Focus
3. Fighter 2 - Point Blank Shot, Dead Eye
4. Ranger 1 - Track
5. Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot
6. Drow Paragon 1 - Crossbow Sniper
7. Drow Paragon 2
8. Drow Paragon 3
9. Rogue 1 - Craven
10. Scout 1
11. Scout 2
12. Scout 3 - Swift Hunter
13. Scout 4 - Swift Ambusher
14. Ranger 3 - Endurance
15. Ranger 4 - Far Shot or Planar Touchstone (Oxyrhynicus)
16. Ranger 5
17. Ranger 6 - Manyshot
18. Ranger 7 - Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Unhallow)
19. Ranger 8
20. Ranger 9
21. Ranger 10 - Greater Manyshot/Distant Shot/Swarm of Arrows/whatever
22. Ranger 11
23. Ranger 12

I'm fond of the combo of Drow Paragon and Half-Fiend 1 to get a few decent SLAs with extra uses (you can look through the Half-Fiendish Variety articles to see if any of the alternate SLA options appeal to you), including Unhallow. SLAs can be quickened regardless of the casting time of the spell (unlike spells), so Quickened Unhallow is sort of hilarious, and handy for preventing escape (Dimensional Anchor effect) or dispelling enemy spell effects (Dispel Magic effect, which is also why the Inquisition Domain is there, clearing Wind Walls and the like with a swift can be helpful for archers). Half Fiend 1 and Drow Paragon also both give +2 to Dex, so it seemed like a good fit.

If you really don't want Ranger you might try something like Female Lesser Drow Half-Fiend Template Class 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Drow Paragon 3/Hit-and-Run Fighter 2/Crafty Hunter Barbarian 2/Deepwood Sniper 10/etc instead.

[danielxcutter]

These things happen.

Lesser Drow isn't there to qualify for Hit-and-Run. It's there so you can treat the hand crossbow as a martial weapon. Human with EWP (Hand Crossbow) is feat neutral, but Lesser Drow has +2 Dex.

Ah, I see. I don't really want to add any more elves yet, but at least the Drow in my comic world aren't universally Evil. Less Good than their lighter-skinned brethren, but not Evil.


As for which will work better, that depends in large part on the sort of enemies the party fights and what the remaining 22 levels of the crossbow drow end up being. Both have a little bit of trouble with creatures immune to crits, but if your damage is primarily sneak attack based you'll have less trouble getting it through with spells and ACFs. Crossbow Sniper at least works on creatures immune to crits, but Hit-and-Run tactics and Dead Eye do not. Of course, you can do a lot with 22 levels, so you could fit a lot of sneak attack or whatever else in there as well.

Yeah... I guess. I honestly doubt that a Hit and Run Fighter Crossbow Sniper build could do much against golems or undead so... Meh.


Ok, so Daring Outlaw first.

Race: Human, Azurin, Strongheart Halfling
1) Rogue 1. Feat: Craven. Bonus: Travel Devotion.
2) Swashbuckler 1. Bonus: Weapon Finesse.
3) Rogue 2. Feat: TWF.
4) Rogue 3. Trade Trap Sense -> Penetrating Strike ACF (Ravenloft or Dungeonscape)
5) Swashbuckler 2.
6) Swashbuckler 3. Feat: Daring Outlaw.
7) Hit-and-Run Fighter 1. Bonus: Improved TWF.
8) Rogue 4.
9) Swashbuckler 4. Feat: Staggering Strike.
10) Swashbuckler 5.
11) Swashbuckler 6.
12) Swashbuckler 7. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2).
13) Swashbuckler 8.
14) Swashbuckler 9.
15) Swashbuckler 10. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3).
16) Swashbuckler 11.
17) Swashbuckler 12.
18) Swashbuckler 13. Feat: Greater TWF.
19) Swashbuckler 14.
20) Swashbuckler 15.

Biggest complaint there is it's kinda boring... there's really not much to do outside of TWF, and maybe some skill stuff. You can certainly improve things by substituting two Swashbuckler levels for Swordsage 2. You "lose" 1d6 sneak attack but then gain +2d6 via Assassin's stance. And you can then throw in a Cloistered Cleric level for Travel Devotion, which frees up a couple feats. So we can take Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium) and maybe Extra Turning.

Eh... Y'know, I think I'd rather drop TD for more Ambush feats. 'Cause you know, more to do than flanking and shanking, plus TD doesn't fit the flavor despite it being powerful.


Then we have Cossbow Sniper Swift Hunter:

Race: Human, Azurin, Strongheart Halfing, or Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion), Human: PB Shot, Bonus: Track. Wild Empathy -> Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion). Favored Enemy: Undead.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot.
3) Scout 1. Feat: Rapid Reload. Skirmish 1d6
4) Hit-and-Run Fighter 1. Bonus: Weapon Focus: Light Crossbow.
5) Scout 2. Skirmish 1d6.
6) Scout 3. Feat: Crossbow Sniper (PHBII). Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
7) Scout 4. Bonus: Swift Hunter. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
8) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
9) Ranger 4. Bonus: Manyshot (CotW ACF), Feat: Improved Rapid Shot. Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII) or Spiritual Guide ACF (Complete Champion).
10) Ranger 5. Favored Enemy: Constructs. Skirmish 3d6AC+2.
11) Dragon Devotee 1.
12) Dragon Devotee 2. Feat: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
13) Dragon Devotee 3. 1st level Sorcerer casting (pick 2 divination spells, such as true strike and maybe sniper's shot.
14) Dragon Devotee 4. Skirmish 5d6AC+2/7d6AC+4
15) Unseen Seer 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Skirmish 6d6AC+2/8d6AC+4
16) Unseen Seer 2.
17) Unseen Seer 3.
18) Unseen Seer 4. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3). Skirmish 7d6AC+2/9d6AC+4
19) Highland Stalker 1.
20) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 8d6AC+2/10d6AC+4

Or if you prefer something more Ranger-y...

Race: Silverbrow Human or Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion), Human: PB Shot, Bonus: Track. Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion). Favored Enemy: Undead.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot.
3) Scout 1. Feat: Rapid Reload. Skirmish 1d6
4) Hit-and-Run Fighter 1. Bonus: Weapon Focus: Light Crossbow.
5) Scout 2. Skirmish 1d6.
6) Scout 3. Feat: Crossbow Sniper (PHBII). Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
7) Scout 4. Bonus: Swift Hunter. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
8) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
9) Ranger 4. Bonus: Precise Shot (CotW ACF, Complete Champion), Feat: Improved Skirmish. Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII) or Spiritual Guide ACF (Complete Champion). Skirmish 2d6AC+2/4d6AC+4.
10) Ranger 5. Favored Enemy: Constructs. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4.
11) Ranger 6. Bonus: Manyshot.
12) Ranger 7. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Skirmish 3d6AC+3/5d6AC+5.
13) Ranger 8. Bonus: Improved Rapid Shot (CotW).
14) Ranger 9. Evasion. Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5
15) Highland Stalker 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3).
16) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 5d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
17) Ranger 10. Favored Enemy: Elementals.
18) Ranger 11. Feat: Dragonfire Strike. Bonus: Improved Precise Shot. Bonus: Improved Favored Enemy (CotW). Skirmish 6d6AC+4/8d6AC+6.
19) Ranger 12.
20) Ranger 13. Camouflage. Skirmish 7d6AC+4/9d6AC+6.

Hmm. Maybe trade Dragonfire Strike for Dead Eye, or maybe add it with flaws.

Agh. Power-wise those builds are impressive, but I've stayed away from SH because it overlaps with the Slayer.


Rapid Reload also works, though it's feat-neutral with a Lesser Drow using Hand Crossbow Focus if you're going for Dead Eye, since you need Weapon Focus anyway.

Here's my stub for for a crossbow swift hunter. I did make one mistake earlier, and not realize that Point Blank Shot was a prerequisite for Dead Eye, though you'll have PBS anyway, so it's not a big deal.

Female Lesser Drow Half-Fiend Template Class 1
1. Cloistered Cleric (Inquisition Domain) 1 - Magic In The Blood, Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion
2. Hit-and-Run Fighter 1 - Hand Crossbow Focus
3. Fighter 2 - Point Blank Shot, Dead Eye
4. Ranger 1 - Track
5. Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot
6. Drow Paragon 1 - Crossbow Sniper
7. Drow Paragon 2
8. Drow Paragon 3
9. Rogue 1 - Craven
10. Scout 1
11. Scout 2
12. Scout 3 - Swift Hunter
13. Scout 4 - Swift Ambusher
14. Ranger 3 - Endurance
15. Ranger 4 - Far Shot or Planar Touchstone (Oxyrhynicus)
16. Ranger 5
17. Ranger 6 - Manyshot
18. Ranger 7 - Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Unhallow)
19. Ranger 8
20. Ranger 9
21. Ranger 10 - Greater Manyshot/Distant Shot/Swarm of Arrows/whatever
22. Ranger 11
23. Ranger 12

I'm fond of the combo of Drow Paragon and Half-Fiend 1 to get a few decent SLAs with extra uses (you can look through the Half-Fiendish Variety articles to see if any of the alternate SLA options appeal to you), including Unhallow. SLAs can be quickened regardless of the casting time of the spell (unlike spells), so Quickened Unhallow is sort of hilarious, and handy for preventing escape (Dimensional Anchor effect) or dispelling enemy spell effects (Dispel Magic effect, which is also why the Inquisition Domain is there, clearing Wind Walls and the like with a swift can be helpful for archers). Half Fiend 1 and Drow Paragon also both give +2 to Dex, so it seemed like a good fit.

If you really don't want Ranger you might try something like Female Lesser Drow Half-Fiend Template Class 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Drow Paragon 3/Hit-and-Run Fighter 2/Crafty Hunter Barbarian 2/Deepwood Sniper 10/etc instead.

That's... Kinda weird, tbh. I don't really like Cleric dips.

[Ruethgar]

Uh... I require context. A lot of context.

Trip cleaver uses (Great)Cleave which requires you drop an opponent which by reasonable definition would include tripping them. Of course Str is more optimal for a trip build, but add in the Parry line with a reach trip weapon and the Dex becomes a much more important feature. Every one of you AoOs from Combat Reflexes can be used as a Wall of Blades maneuver each round. So you go in front with your pole arm and just block all the melee from hitting. I mentioned Jaunter because, well, they are the most useful Dex users. The more Dex they have the more they can teleport/planeshift/dim door. Add in the very thematically appropriate Uncanny Trickster for movement skill tricks with a major Bloodline for Jaunter and they'll come out with a massive amount of travel power.

[ayvango]

The party still has no range dd, why not take master thrower? Take double toss, sneaky shot, weak spot. Complement it with human chameleon which grants access to hunter's eye. But that would be extra spellcasting, although amateur one.

Another option is to build sneak attack/skirmish archer through Telflammar Shadow Lord. It is not restricted to do full attack with melee weapon. So you could take splitting and exit wound enchanted bow, woodland archer tactical feat and bring death shower to you foes from the distance where you could threat you enemies (i.e. 10-15 feet). Telflammar Shadow Lord eats many tactical teleportation and therefore the archer needs some ways to cast it. Either from martial maneuvers, conjurer wizard instant magic, dimensional jaunt reserve feat or warlock invocations. Basically you need some spellcaster progression which can be done with wht Swift Blade PrC

[danielxcutter]

Trip cleaver uses (Great)Cleave which requires you drop an opponent which by reasonable definition would include tripping them. Of course Str is more optimal for a trip build, but add in the Parry line with a reach trip weapon and the Dex becomes a much more important feature. Every one of you AoOs from Combat Reflexes can be used as a Wall of Blades maneuver each round. So you go in front with your pole arm and just block all the melee from hitting. I mentioned Jaunter because, well, they are the most useful Dex users. The more Dex they have the more they can teleport/planeshift/dim door. Add in the very thematically appropriate Uncanny Trickster for movement skill tricks with a major Bloodline for Jaunter and they'll come out with a massive amount of travel power.

Errrr... You do remember that I said I dislike overlapping, right? And bloodlines are kinda wonky to use.


The party still has no range dd, why not take master thrower? Take double toss, sneaky shot, weak spot. Complement it with human chameleon which grants access to hunter's eye. But that would be extra spellcasting, although amateur one.

Dude, there's a Slayer gish, a Warlock, and an Arcane Hierophant. I don't think ranged damage is that lacking.


Another option is to build sneak attack/skirmish archer through Telflammar Shadow Lord. It is not restricted to do full attack with melee weapon. So you could take splitting and exit wound enchanted bow, woodland archer tactical feat and bring death shower to you foes from the distance where you could threat you enemies (i.e. 10-15 feet). Telflammar Shadow Lord eats many tactical teleportation and therefore the archer needs some ways to cast it. Either from martial maneuvers, conjurer wizard instant magic, dimensional jaunt reserve feat or warlock invocations. Basically you need some spellcaster progression which can be done with wht Swift Blade PrC

I'm pretty sure I said no casters earlier upthread.



You know what, I think I'm going to choose Daring Outlaw for the character. It's fairly simple, there are several ways of getting around immunities, and works with the party well(lots of melee beatsticks for flanking with).

[Ruethgar]

Errrr... You do remember that I said I dislike overlapping, right? And bloodlines are kinda wonky to use.

I fail to see the overlap. Is there another flurry defender or mundane movement specialized character? And they aren't really wonky, but I would understand you not wanting to use them.

[danielxcutter]

I fail to see the overlap. Is there another flurry defender or mundane movement specialized character? And they aren't really wonky, but I would understand you not wanting to use them.

The party leader's a martial adept, remember?

[Gruftzwerg]

Trip cleaver uses (Great)Cleave which requires you drop an opponent which by reasonable definition would include tripping them. Of course Str is more optimal for a trip build, but add in the Parry line with a reach trip weapon and the Dex becomes a much more important feature. Every one of you AoOs from Combat Reflexes can be used as a Wall of Blades maneuver each round. So you go in front with your pole arm and just block all the melee from hitting. I mentioned Jaunter because, well, they are the most useful Dex users. The more Dex they have the more they can teleport/planeshift/dim door. Add in the very thematically appropriate Uncanny Trickster for movement skill tricks with a major Bloodline for Jaunter and they'll come out with a massive amount of travel power.

Imho the Glaivelock can do this job better in his own way:

- take Combat Reflexes & Eldritch Glaive (or Eldritch Chain)
- take an Essence where the enemy is most likely to fail the required save roll (blind, confusion, nauseated, knocked prone choose one^^). Especially if the enemy is nauseated for 1 minute, the fight is normally autowin.

Imho turn the Glaivelock into your "Dex main & Cha as secondary stat" role and look for something else for the "Cha"-slot. Would make the situation much more easier to solve^^

[Ruethgar]

The party leader's a martial adept, remember?

And that didn't include a single Maneuver, Wall of Blades is just the quickest way to reference the effects of Parry. And still, even with a Martial Adept, that does not garuntee they have an emphasis on mobility or blocking attacks against allies. It would depend highly on which maneuvers he used. However it is of course up to you what you choose. Merely remarking for clarity.

Also, as to glaive lock, eldritch glaive is not a weapon so you couldn't parry or trip with it. So no, they wouldn't do that better.

[danielxcutter]

And that didn't include a single Maneuver, Wall of Blades is just the quickest way to reference the effects of Parry. And still, even with a Martial Adept, that does not garuntee they have an emphasis on mobility or blocking attacks against allies. It would depend highly on which maneuvers he used. However it is of course up to you what you choose. Merely remarking for clarity.

Also, as to glaive lock, eldritch glaive is not a weapon so you couldn't parry or trip with it. So no, they wouldn't do that better.

Hmmm, I've already picked Daring Outlaw for the current character I'm making, but I could use something like that for a different one, if that's okay with you.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter 4/ Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 13+, Hit-And-Run and Penetrating Strike ACFs.

A Human with two flaws will have 13 feats by level 20:
Daring Outlaw, Daring Warrior
TWF, ITWF, GTWF
Martial Study: Shadow Jaunt, Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance, Shadow Blade
(Greater) Weapon Focus, (Greater) Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery, and at level 21 get Weapon Supremacy (PH2)

Edit: Be sure to stack this guy with all of the Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) so that he's not completely worthless.

And since I just now thought of it, try to give your primary martial adept character all three Diamond Mind saving throw maneuvers that use Concentration, along with a constant effect item of the spell Undersong, and max Perform: Weapon Drill (CW) so that he can use a Perform check to flourish his weapon in place of rolling a saving throw. Nothing beats cutting a fireball in half to avoid its effect.