[3.5] Duskblade Arcane Archer Build Help

[Chronikoce]

So I was doing some reading around and I found this build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.msg69667#msg69667) which uses duskblade 5/abjurant champion 5/arcane archer 10. It seems interesting and while not highly optimized I was thinking I might give it a go soon (the group I get to be a player in is pretty low OP so not worried about being a bit weaker).

I have some questions though on how it all works since I've never used arcane archer on account of the 3.5 version being pretty garbage. Suggestions on changes that can be made to improve the build while maintaining the ability to deal decent damage in melee and range would be welcome.

Points that I am confused on
*CL20: It claims to have CL 20 at the end but I can't figure out how this is being managed. From what I can tell they are using the 3.5 version of arcane archer which doesn't progress caster level yet they claim to have CL20 without the use of feats or items.

*Chilling touch: it says a channeled extended chilling touch deals 40d6+40 str damage. I have no idea what this is supposed to even refer to. The chill touch spell doesn't scale, is instantaneous so can't be extended, and I don't see how they could be achieving the 40 attacks required to hit those numbers with it. Could this be referring to a different spell or maybe a version of the spell from a different edition of the game?

*Imbue Arrow: they make it sound like they can add the use of doom scarab to one arrow in the massive barrage of arrows but my reading of this ability makes it sound like you have to only use a standard action to imbue an arrow which means you can never use it during a full attack (which honestly makes it sound like a completely useless ability for about everything other than popping off some ranged anti-magic fields). Am I misinterpreting the way this ability works?


TL;DR
Found build that sounds like it could be fun to play but as written I think it's filled with rules violations or at least rule uses I don't understand. Suggestions to improve the build or fix the rules violations would be most welcome.

[Aetis]

Abjurant Champion gets Martial Arcanist at lv 5, which lets him use his BAB as CL.

He can't actually extend Chilling Touch, since it's an instantaneous duration spell, as you pointed out. So the author's claim of 40d6 + 40 Str is bogus.

I've been meaning to ask the Playgrounders whether Chilling Touch actually allows 20 touch attacks in 1 round. Some people think so; other people think caster is stuck making his normal allotted attacks per round while holding the spell per "holding the charge" touch spell rules.

You are of course also right that he cannot imbue arrow and full attack at the same time.

I recommend looking into the pathfinder version of the Arcane Archer.

[Troacctid]

I've been meaning to ask the Playgrounders whether Chilling Touch actually allows 20 touch attacks in 1 round. Some people think so; other people think caster is stuck making his normal allotted attacks per round while holding the spell per "holding the charge" touch spell rules.
As per Rules Compendium, when you cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action that allows you to make multiple attacks, all those attacks are made within that standard action unless otherwise noted.

[Aetis]

I've already read your response to the question from awhile back, actually.

Would you say you can choose to make, say, 8 attacks and hold the remaining 12 attacks? (and use them in future rounds as per holding the charge touch spell rules)

[Chronikoce]

Ah I see. So since you can effect 1 creature per level you can in theory get off multiple touches against the same target in one round because the text doesn't explicitly state that the creatures need to be different.

So in theory that means you'd just stand there and poke the adjacent enemy a bunch of times? Not sure how that would work with arcane channel though. It definitely seems wrong to say you'd get extra melee attacks.

As for changing the build to be more effective. It seems like maybe snagging 2 levels of AA so you have the utility then swapping to something else (maybe just back to duskblade to get full attack channel eventually) would be more effective.

[Grod_The_Giant]

As for changing the build to be more effective. It seems like maybe snagging 2 levels of AA so you have the utility then swapping to something else (maybe just back to duskblade to get full attack channel eventually) would be more effective.
Entirely agreed. Imbue Arrow isn't terrible, but everything else is pretty damn bad.

Also, you should drop Weapon Finesse (you're not even dumping Str very hard? and you can replace it with a Feycraft weapon?) and take Knowledge Devotion instead. Duskblades rock Knowledge Devotion like no one's business; they have plenty of skill points and no good place to put 'em besides Knowledge skills.

[WhamBamSam]

A favorite Duskblade/Arcane Archer build of mine is Cloistered Cleric 1/Duskblade 3/Ordained Champion 3/Arcane Archer 2/Divine Crusader 1 going into Sovereign Speaker, Seeker of the Misty Isle, Contemplative, etc. With an Elvencraft Bow, you can cast two spells (high leveled off a spell list comprised of a bunch of domains) into either a melee attack (Ordained Champion Channel for your move action, Duskblade Channel standard) or a ranged attack (Ordained Champ channel move action, Imbue Arrow standard). For your movement, you have a turning pool to fuel Travel Devotion.

[Telok]

As per Rules Compendium, when you cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action that allows you to make multiple attacks, all those attacks are made within that standard action unless otherwise noted.

Which is of course completely hilarious if you get a couple of damage boosters or put it on a rogue. Grabbing an extra 5 dice and a +5 or so flat bonus per attack is pretty easy for a caster by CL 10.

[Chronikoce]

Which is of course completely hilarious if you get a couple of damage boosters or put it on a rogue. Grabbing an extra 5 dice and a +5 or so flat bonus per attack is pretty easy for a caster by CL 10.

Applying sneak attack to 20x1d6 touch attacks in a round seems like a good way to have your DM throw a book at you.

Are there any other spells with weird wording like Chill Touch that actually enable the standard action poke spam?

[Telok]

Applying sneak attack to 20x1d6 touch attacks in a round seems like a good way to have your DM throw a book at you.

Are there any other spells with weird wording like Chill Touch that actually enable the standard action poke spam?

A couple, I saw a corrosive something spell in the SpC as I was browsing. As a thought experiment I worked up a quick combo of a 10th level wizard. Feats: Arcane Strike (CWar 96), Sudden Maximize. Spells: Chill Touch, Belker Claws (SpC 26). Magic items: Cloak of the Desert Wind [Burning Blade] (ToB 52 & 150) 3000 gp, Shadow Hand Gloves [Shadow Jaunt & Assassin Stance] (ToB 75 & 150) 7500 gp. Oh, and probably cast Invisibility or something to get SA and the invisible attacker bonus.

Prep by being in Assassin Stance and casting Sudden Maximized Belker Claws, to attack cast Chill Touch, sacrifice a 3rd level spell as a free action, activate Burning Blade as a swift action.

On a 10th level wizard it's 1d6 negative + 1d6 fire + 2d6 SA + 3d4 untyped + 24 + 5 fire + 10 strength damage (Fort negates) at an extra +6 to hit from Arcane Strike. Per attack for 10 attacks. So average 52 damage per hit if the target isn't immune to anything.

[Chronikoce]

I'm not sure that works.

Casting something like chill touch seems to enable you to make the large number of touch attacks but if you choose to deliver the spell via an unarmed strike I don't think it gives you more unarmed attacks per round. Arcane strike requires the use of a melee weapon, natural attack, or unarmed strike. Since it doesn't mention touch attacks I believe that means that you can't deliver an arcane strike as a rider on the series of touch attacks being produced by Chill touch. Same problem with burning blade requiring a melee weapon to deliver it.

You also would have to achieve some way of holding multiple touch spells in the same hand at the same time otherwise by RAW the Belker Claws spell is cancelled the moment you activate Chill Touch (or visa versa).

[Telok]

I'm not sure that works.

The thing here is the reading that casting Chill Touch gives you attacks equal to your CL with the spell and that they all happen at once. That's what's being abused.

You don't use unarmed strike, just the spell attack. It's considered an armed and weapon like attack (I'm sure on armed, people have argued for pages over the weapon like stuff butt you'd take that as acceptable if you're going with the reading that gives all the attacks in a single standard action) so Burning Blade applies. Arcane Strike works on all attacks for the whole round like Burning Blade. And Belker Claws from the SpC is a bit vague on my second reading of it, it doesn't say "make a touch attack to deal damage" it says "when you make a touch attack you deal damage" and lasts multiple rounds (duration is important, it means you're not using the 'holding the charge' rule). Since you're making touch attacks with Chill Touch... But I can see reading it as a weapon like touch spell too.

Even giving up the maxxed claw spell isn't too bad. That was 24 damage a hit but you can just go with quickened Chill Touch and use the feat to mitigate the metamagic costs.

The whole thing was just a quickie example of possible abuse.

[Aetis]

I'm pretty sure you cannot apply SA more than once even if you get 20 attacks off chilling touch in 1 round, as per volley rules.

[Chronikoce]

I'm pretty sure you cannot apply SA more than once even if you get 20 attacks off chilling touch in 1 round, as per volley rules.

It's not really a volley though. There is no requirement to target the same person and every single one of the 20 attacks requires its own roll. You could in theory gain +5ft reach through a feat and then be surrounded on all sides (2 deep) and then use a single attack against 20 of those who are surrounding you. In that case it seems clear that sneak attack would apply to each and every target. Since you are simply choosing to use all these attacks on one person I believe they still apply.

That being said, I wouldn't try it with the group I currently play with. They got all wound up over a master thrower build of mine that did some silly number of dagger throws per round. I think I am slowly bringing them around to the ways of better optimization though. We are playing Age of Worms atm and their fear of death has made them start asking for advice on best feats, classes combos, spells etc.

[Troacctid]

Any bonus damage applies only to the first attack, again per RC.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm pretty sure you cannot apply SA more than once even if you get 20 attacks off chilling touch in 1 round, as per volley rules.
Unless you apply a metamagic feat so it takes a full round action.

[Telok]

I can't even tell what people are assuming about things now.

If you're using a melee attack you get SA on each attack roll. Else FU rogues.
If you're using an ability that says it adds damage to your attacks for the whole round then it applies to each attack roll. Else FU TWF and full attacks.

Various stuff gets posted about different sorts of ranged attacks, different spells, differences between spontaneous and prepared casters, what does and does not count as bonus damage. I think that's what you guys are talking about but I'm not sure.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I can't even tell what people are assuming about things now.

If you're using a melee attack you get SA on each attack roll. Else FU rogues.
If you're using an ability that says it adds damage to your attacks for the whole round then it applies to each attack roll. Else FU TWF and full attacks.

Various stuff gets posted about different sorts of ranged attacks, different spells, differences between spontaneous and prepared casters, what does and does not count as bonus damage. I think that's what you guys are talking about but I'm not sure.
Sadly, the Rules Compendium specifies that

A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group.
It's an awful, unnecessary nerf, yeah, but it is official.

[Aetis]

Unless you apply a metamagic feat so it takes a full round action.

I asked that in the Q&A awhile back and they said that doesn't work.


EDIT: Here was the reply:


When a spell strikes multiple times in a single round, bonus damage (including but not limited to precision damage) is only applied to the first attack in that round, regardless of whether it hits or misses. RC 136/CAr 86.

[Chronikoce]

Well I suppose it's a good thing that nobody in my group has ever read or owned a copy of the Rules Compendium because every time I hear it quoted it makes me shake my head.

[Telok]

So the bonus damage from a +1 flaming weapon only applies once per round. Not on the full attack, not on the AoO, just once. I've heard people argue about power attack being bonus damage too. Did they want to castrate mundane attacks or were they just idiots...

No, I remember the ToB errata. They're idiots.
> /ignore RC

[Chronikoce]

That's my thought. I've never heard something from the rules compendium brought up that couldn't be better sorted by an ounce of common sense instead.

[Particle_Man]

FWIW there is this feat (which could help AA at least):

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot

No idea why it was listed in the psionics section of the SRD since it has nothing to do with psionics, but I guess they wanted to keep things categorized by the original books they were found in.

[WhamBamSam]

FWIW there is this feat (which could help AA at least):

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot

No idea why it was listed in the psionics section of the SRD since it has nothing to do with psionics, but I guess they wanted to keep things categorized by the original books they were found in.I think it was originally printed in the XPH. Stand Still is XPH as well, despite being purely mundane.

Greater Manyshot does indeed help archers, though Arcane Archers probably don't really care that much about it either way as they'll generally do better to just use Imbue Arrow if you're using a standard action instead of a full attack.