Tropes you are most sick of in anime [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Lord

2017-02-10, 05:39 AM

Title says it all folks, what tropes are you most sick of in Anime?
For my part, I have come to despise the last second villain backstory thing. Like in Bleach where Barragan Luisenbarn is dying, and then you see his motivations and plans to defeat Aizen for humiliating him. Except even if I did feel sorry for Barragan, it didn't change the fact that Barragan was completely wasted. How much cooler would it have been if Barragan had had his motivations revealed earlier, and then actually made an attempt to overthrow Aizen?
As it is, its like Tite Kubo had a really good backstory for this character in mind, but couldn't be bothered to make his anime anything other than standard shonen, so he just killed him off and showed the backstory for some cheap feels.
I will admit it could be done well. If the characters motivations were all clear to begin with, and he was acting on them throughout the story in accordance with his backstory, showing us his backstory at the last minute could be a dramatic way of changing our perspective on the character. As it is, in my experience, the last second villain backstory is usually just a result of lazy writing.

tensai_oni

2017-02-10, 05:56 AM

I've grown to despise the smirking arrogant mastermind kind of villain. The type that is never meaningfully inconvenienced by the protagonists because each time it seems like the heroes have the upper hand, it's either:
-A fake out where something happens out of nowhere and without any foreshadowing (probably pulled out of the main writer's hind quarters) and the protagonists get their asses kicked instead
or
-part of the villain's plan, conveniently the plan was never revealed before but it just so happens that what transpired was part of it, no matter how unlikely

Extra points for the show desperately trying to portray the villain in a sympathetic light, giving them a backstory, etc. Which all fails because the villain is still a smug git.

It seems like after an era of anime mary sue protagonists (with Kira Yamato, Kirito and Onii-sama as the holy trinity), now we're entering an era of mary sue antagonists. And while seeing the protagonists always succeed without problems or complications is boring, having them NEVER achieve anything of note except perhaps at the very end, is just as bad if not worse.

Arcane_Snowman

2017-02-10, 06:39 AM

The socially inept romantic lead:
It's so incredibly tedious to see a character who has absolutely no clue that they're developing a romantic relationship with their counterpart (or plural I suppose, but I really dislike the harem genre so let's not go there). It's not funny, cute or tension building, all it makes me think is that the lead is so devoid of interpersonal skills that it's a miracle that they can even conduct a normal conversation with another person.

The lead being special:
I am sick and tired of the fetishistic obsession that an incredibly large portion of media, not just anime, has with the idea that the protagonist needs to be special, either through having some sort of special ability, super power, be directly chosen by some higher power, or simply by virtue of being a "genius" in their particular field. That whole idea is taken to it's toxic extreme in Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo, where the apparent message of the anime is "what you do has no value if someone does it better than you" and "if you don't have the innate talent for something, give up or accept being inferior".

The misunderstood/highly limited über-power is honestly not much better.

Alent

2017-02-10, 06:45 AM

I don't mind most tropes, but there's one tropy pattern that infuriates me in Anime: Character development by recursive Expy, Stereotype, and Flanderization as a substitute for real character development or original story.

Let's say you're a famous director with a two cour show. It's an LN adaptation, because nearly everything is, you haven't had an original idea in twenty years, and even if you did the board of directors wouldn't allow you to make it. You've got all this screen time that can be spent developing characters and because all this work is done for you, you don't even need to devote time to writing it. What do you do? You throw in a bunch of canned flanderization scenes that are meant to demonstrate "this character is the same as a character from this other series" by using the same or similar Seiyuu, the same general color scheme and rough visual footprint, and waste all of the source material by boiling the character down to a pile of cliched quotes and catch phrases that make it even more obvious this character is meant to inherit all of some other series's character development simply by being somewhat similar and having the same voice. :smallconfused:

All that extra time saved by not doing character development or covering the actual material? That now goes into fanservice scenes aimed at fans of an entirely different series.

You couldn't be blamed at all for thinking that series which use that method have absolutely no character development or that the character development makes no sense... If you haven't seen the inspiration series, you'd have no way of ever knowing what any character's personality is supposed to be.

tensai_oni

2017-02-10, 06:50 AM

Let's say you're a famous director with a two cour show. It's an LN adaptation, because nearly everything is, you haven't had an original idea in twenty years, and even if you did the board of directors wouldn't allow you to make it. You've got all this screen time that can be spent developing characters and because all this work is done for you, you don't even need to devote time to writing it. What do you do? You throw in a bunch of canned flanderization scenes that are meant to demonstrate "this character is the same as a character from this other series" by using the same or similar Seiyuu, the same general color scheme and rough visual footprint, and waste all of the source material by boiling the character down to a pile of cliched quotes and catch phrases that make it even more obvious this character is meant to inherit all of some other series's character development simply by being somewhat similar and having the same voice. :smallconfused:

That's very specific. What shows did this happen in?

Ninja_Prawn

2017-02-10, 06:50 AM

One thing that grates on me in anime/manga is how some tropes seem to be compulsory (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeadHorseTrope) for no good reason. Every camping trip involves courage test. Every piece of food is delicious. Every visit to a hot spring coincides with perfectly clear, starry skies. Often, it feels like a pointless box-checking exercise.

Alent

2017-02-10, 07:04 AM

That's very specific. What shows did this happen in?

There's an entire subgenre of Battle Academy harem stories that do this, some get two cours, some get one, but the general footprint is always Zero no Tsukaima with some kind of battle tournament. There was one a few seasons back that was really shamelessly Mahouka inspired, eiyuu something rakukishi?

Similarly, the entire MMOfic/Isekai genre is really bad about this sort of shorthand stealing from each other, too, in both print and animation. (some of the ones that haven't been animated yet are going to get it BAD. New Gate makes some really tactful use of it in print that will simply not survive the transition to anime.)

It's something I've been getting more and more accustomed to spotting in recent years. Girlish Number actually pokes fun at it, since the show they're doing the voice acting for is actually a color by numbers battle academy harem arc... and the main character levels up her acting skill by imitating the seiyuu for the character her character is a copy of.

Edit: It's also a "I can't unsee it" thing that happens once you're used to spotting it. Most directors use the method, to varying degrees. It just hits those two subgenres the hardest, but it affects quite a few other genres. Aldnoah Zero is a good example of a series that heavily abused this kind of shorthand.

Kitten Champion

2017-02-10, 08:14 AM

The character whose main - and sometimes only - trait is horniness and aggressive sexual advancement or when sexual assault is played for laughs in general.

When it's the protagonist like Urusei Yatsura's Ataru Moroboshi, the fact that he gets some comedic comeuppance for his actions doesn't really change the fact that I have to watch him be routinely loathsome. When it's a side comic-relief character, it's just unfunny. Like the teacher from Mahoromatic, the fact that she's a woman trying to molest her male students doesn't become sudden hilarity. While anime-adjacent, one of the few bad things I can say about Persona 4 - which is one of my favourite games - is the way it writes and treats the Hanako character and that it has its own unpleasant teacher character as well... with a dose of fat-shaming and "30-plus year old unmarried women are sexual or social misfits" respectively.

I mean, it can work within certain contexts. Seitokai Yakuindomo for instance builds its premise around dirty humour conveyed by seemingly upstanding high-school girls, but while the characters are over-the-top they don't transcend the boundary into unlikable or despicable territory by not really respecting others while they do so.

Arcane_Snowman

2017-02-10, 09:28 AM

"30-plus year old unmarried women are sexual or social misfits" respectively. Can't say I'm thankful that you reminded me, but it's a definite thing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChristmasCake). And it really shouldn't be. :smallannoyed:

Nerd-o-rama

2017-02-10, 09:31 AM

Ninja_Prawn

2017-02-10, 09:35 AM

Can't say I'm thankful that you reminded me, but it's a definite thing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChristmasCake). And it really shouldn't be. :smallannoyed:

The problem (in anime/manga) is when all women over 25 are portrayed as really being dysfunctional misfits, which happens annoyingly often in works aimed at younger audiences. Sure, the works can reflect real-world cultural things, but they don't have to make them true.

tensai_oni

2017-02-10, 10:03 AM

I found that attitude regarding "Christmas Cakes" is changing and for the better too. The frequency when an anime has an unmarried woman character and her being unmarried is treated as something weird or a reflection of her being somehow undesirable is getting lower in time. Still happens but compare today's shows with something like the original Macross, where Misa was treated as old and worried about marriage and growing too old for it... at 18. Okay the former was mostly from Hikaru, who was both younger than her at 16 and a brat in general, but still.

The character whose main - and sometimes only - trait is horniness and aggressive sexual advancement or when sexual assault is played for laughs in general.

I'd be hard pressed to call that an anime only trope. Happens in all fiction, not that non-anime appearances make it any less annoying.

Kitten Champion

2017-02-10, 10:26 AM

I'd be hard pressed to call that an anime only trope. Happens in all fiction, not that non-anime appearances make it any less annoying.

I think that's true of most tropes you'd think of referencing here, even if you look at the more Japan-centric ones like direct historical or cultural references they'll still be found outside of their animation industry and Anime as a style has been replicated to varying to degrees of fidelity in numerous other countries' productions.

Rysto

2017-02-10, 10:29 AM

Traab

2017-02-10, 10:34 AM

Death unlocks my true power!

Best example off the top of my head? Naruto. In the first fight against sasuke at the VotE, he gets stabbed in the chest and his neck gets snapped and each time he pops up even more powerful than before. It happens in Bleach as well. But its not just death, its ANY ass whupping. The hero is beaten bloody, and barely able to twitch. The villain gives his "its hopeless" speech, the hero refuses to give up, and then suddenly he unlocks a new source of power and generally one shots the bad guy who was just beating him into a flesh sack of pain and bone shards. You can always tell the difference too. Between a legit hero ass whupping and a setup to the power up. If the hero gets ganked super fast like ichigo and his first meeting with byakuya, then its a gank, we all knew he wasnt getting up then. His first fight against kenpachi? You cant tell me you didnt see that happening. It was too drawn out of a battle. Clearly ichigo was going to be pushed past his limits.

cobaltstarfire

2017-02-10, 10:45 AM

The two characters who should logically be allies within the bounds of the story and their goals, who are instead mortal enemies because of some sort of weird mental gymnastics to rationalize trying to murder each other at every future opportunity.

It sort of feels like a subset of drama created via miscommunication, but different since sometimes the characters acknowledge that they have goals along the same lines and decide to be enemies anyway for reasons.

Gastronomie

2017-02-10, 10:46 AM

Personally, I hate it when the writers just kill off a main character (not the "assumed dead" type, I mean really, clearly depicting his death) for dramatic feelz and then later randomly make him return to life through magic. ...Or ninjutsu. Or whatever supernatural force.

I mean, c'mon. Death is a really important and powerful thing. Killing a main character should be important. If someone is dead, he's dead. He's not coming back. NEVER!!

I don't mind the parallel world stuff though, 'cause the person who died is technically still dead (at least, in the world in which he died), and the tragedy is still left as a "fact". But when shonen manga do this sort of stuff, it's absolutely terrible.

Dashuto

2017-02-10, 10:59 AM

I'm tired of powers getting upgraded only once they face a strong enemy.

I'm kind of tired of upgrading powers period. Its nicer to have someone "discovering" new ways to use power they already have.

gooddragon1

2017-02-10, 11:07 AM

If a character (especially a villain) is ever hit by an attack that causes a massive explosion, leaving the result obscured by smoke, then it's a guarantee that when the smoke clears, they're going to standing there completely untouched. Whoever threw the attack will be utterly shocked, as if this doesn't happen every single time.

This one. I can deal with all the other ones, but not this one. The artist determines whether an attack succeeds or fails with very little middle ground. What's that Ichigo? You destroyed the sokyoku? Too bad, ulquiorra's damage reduction is too much for you. Captain genocide was so strong that Aizen created a plan specifically to deal with him? Doesn't worry YW even a little bit.

1: Bang, I got you!
2: No you didn't!
1: Yes I did!
2: The artist says otherwise!

Traab

2017-02-10, 11:37 AM

This one. I can deal with all the other ones, but not this one. The artist determines whether an attack succeeds or fails with very little middle ground. What's that Ichigo? You destroyed the sokyoku? Too bad, ulquiorra's damage reduction is too much for you. Captain genocide was so strong that Aizen created a plan specifically to deal with him? Doesn't worry YW even a little bit.

1: Bang, I got you!
2: No you didn't!
1: Yes I did!
2: The artist says otherwise!

That actually coincides with another peeve, the way power creep can really screw with the storyline. Lets take bleach as an example. When ichigo is about to bust out his bankai all over kuchki, byakuya is thinking to himself (really to us) about how rare and incredible bankai is. "Even in the 4 great noble families, known for being stronger than others, maybe one child in several generations is capable of reaching that level" (Not does, is capable of) Then by the end of the series, bankai is the baseline. You cant even show up to the party without having surpassed it somehow. Everybody either has it, or something on its level, or is even stronger in some way. Because all these years of gradually increasing levels of toughness so the new bad guy can be a threat have made it as common as graduating from the freaking shinigami academy. And just as impressive.

Draconi Redfir

2017-02-10, 11:49 AM

"literally everything is related"

The protagonist Bob goes out to fight the Villain Grahem who burned down his village to hunt down the girl Judy (who Bob had a crush on). Along the way Bob encounters Roy, who turns out to be looking for his sister (Who we later discover is Judy!) And then they encounter the high preistess Lucy who helps them out on their quest, (and so happens to be Judy and Roy`s mother) before going off to see her new boyfreind. Meanwhile Grahem (who is Bob`s father for the reccord) is preparing for his evil date of evilness, and guess who his date is!? It`s mother f***cking LUCY!

See examples of: Star Wars and the entire skywalker family. The Events that caused each of the main cast in my little pony to become who they are all being the same thing, and just about everything that ever happened in Homestuck

Things just can`t seem to happen indipentantly of one annother these days.

Dienekes

2017-02-10, 12:27 PM

Nerd-o-rama

2017-02-10, 12:33 PM

I'm not a huge fan of anime. But I'll tell you the most common thing that completely annoys me, even in the shows I would have otherwise liked:

We're watching the show, something happened, we, the audience, all see it happening. It's pretty obvious that it's happening.

Then the show completely breaks from what's going on to focus on a side character give an inner (or outer) monologue about what we just saw. No further details, nothing that is added to the story. Just a break from the interesting bits to give irrelevant padding.

It happens all the time, but I think one of the most annoying for me was in that One Punch show. Which all told, was pretty good. But freaking Emo Cyborg Sidekick, every damn scene he's having some pointless inner monologue that adds nothing!

If it happened in OPM, it's pretty much guaranteed that it was meant parodically.

I think this one's a holdover from the manga/comics format that a lot of anime is based on, which is fond of using lengthy narration by a character to provide context and detail that can't be drawn in a few pages a week. American superhero comics do roughly the same thing, but it's not a technique suited to animation where the audience expects to be shown things in detail and motion, otherwise why are we watching TV?

Now there's also technical reasons for this (more time per episode with less moving frames mean fewer underpaid in-betweener artists getting serious health problems or time and money spent rendering the animation in software), but it all comes down to budget.

AvatarVecna

2017-02-10, 12:51 PM

That actually coincides with another peeve, the way power creep can really screw with the storyline. Lets take bleach as an example. When ichigo is about to bust out his bankai all over kuchki, byakuya is thinking to himself (really to us) about how rare and incredible bankai is. "Even in the 4 great noble families, known for being stronger than others, maybe one child in several generations is capable of reaching that level" (Not does, is capable of) Then by the end of the series, bankai is the baseline. You cant even show up to the party without having surpassed it somehow. Everybody either has it, or something on its level, or is even stronger in some way. Because all these years of gradually increasing levels of toughness so the new bad guy can be a threat have made it as common as graduating from the freaking shinigami academy. And just as impressive.

In DBZ universe, this particular tired trope is so tired that even the characters occasionally step back and comment on how bull**** it is. Here's a bit from the wiki:

The ability to become a Super Saiyan was once considered to be nothing but a legend, as it had not been performed for over one-thousand years.[17] Vegeta stated that a Super Saiyan has achieved a level of power so overwhelming that it could only be maintained in a transformed state.

...

The power increases of subsequent Super Saiyan forms are so high that by the Buu Saga, the original transformation has been literally reduced to that of a "child's plaything" (as stated by Vegeta; as both Goten and Trunks can transform and harness the power adeptly at such a young age).

In the main series, all living Saiyan-blooded males after the Frieza Saga manage to reach at least the first level of Super Saiyan. No female Super Saiyans are ever seen in the Dragon Ball manga or anime.

Rynjin

2017-02-10, 12:52 PM

Death unlocks my true power!

Best example off the top of my head? Naruto. In the first fight against sasuke at the VotE, he gets stabbed in the chest and his neck gets snapped and each time he pops up even more powerful than before.

I agree with your other example, and in general it's played out (mostly because it isn't foreshadowed at all, it's just pure 'determination' or 'fighting spirit' or whatever). But complaining about Naruto using his pre-established Wolverine-lite regeneration powers to fight back in a fight he STILL LOST is odd. Naruto did not gain a new power-up in that fight, he used one he already had.

You SHOULD be complaining about the bit where he gets the fox ripped out of him near the end, basically dies, and comes back to life as a literal demigod.

I'm not a huge fan of anime. But I'll tell you the most common thing that completely annoys me, even in the shows I would have otherwise liked:

We're watching the show, something happened, we, the audience, all see it happening. It's pretty obvious that it's happening.

Then the show completely breaks from what's going on to focus on a side character give an inner (or outer) monologue about what we just saw. No further details, nothing that is added to the story. Just a break from the interesting bits to give irrelevant padding.

It happens all the time, but I think one of the most annoying for me was in that One Punch show. Which all told, was pretty good. But freaking Emo Cyborg Sidekick, every damn scene he's having some pointless inner monologue that adds nothing!

I'm not an idiot, you don't have to break the story to explain the obvious to me.

His inner monologue was MEANT to be annoying. OPM is entirely a subversion and parody of Shonen tropes. Genos being a "standard anime protagonist" with an over-wrought horrible backstory, a complex about "getting stronger, strong enough to beat the guy I MUST defeat", power-ups out the wazoo every time he is damaged and defeated (as my other quoted post complains about), "Nobody could survive that!" reactions, and a need to be the narrator and point out the obvious is his whole schtick.

As for my most hated trope? Deeefinitely the Tsundere character trope. Well, I take that back. It's the VIOLENT Tsundere. I don't mind he rare few that keep their hands to themselves for the most part (like Keiko from YuYu Hakusho) but most of them can just go die.

Honorable mention goes to "NANI!?!?!" and "BAKANAAAAAAA!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!1110ijojusnj" being shouted at every opportunity and their English equivalents, of course. English for the last even more, since they usually add even more words in.

Dienekes

2017-02-10, 12:55 PM

If it happened in OPM, it's pretty much guaranteed that it was meant parodically.

I think this one's a holdover from the manga/comics format that a lot of anime is based on, which is fond of using lengthy narration by a character to provide context and detail that can't be drawn in a few pages a week. American superhero comics do roughly the same thing, but it's not a technique suited to animation where the audience expects to be shown things in detail and motion, otherwise why are we watching TV?

Now there's also technical reasons for this (more time per episode with less moving frames mean fewer underpaid in-betweener artists getting serious health problems or time and money spent rendering the animation in software), but it all comes down to budget.

A joke that's not funny isn't much of a joke. Doing it once, in a blatant way to point out how unnecessary it is, sure. Doing it every damn scene? No, that's unforgivable.

Rynjin

2017-02-10, 01:02 PM

A joke that's not funny isn't much of a joke. Doing it once, in a blatant way to point out how unnecessary it is, sure. Doing it every damn scene? No, that's unforgivable.

It's very rarely done without it being subversive in some other way though. Monologue interrupted by someone, or him giving "deep insights" into something...that turn out to be utterly, horribly wrong. Sometimes the subversion is that it IS being played straight somewhat and Genos is realizing something about Saitama's or his own character and actually developing as a a result (his reaction to how things play out after the asteroid, for example).

Unless your problem is just that Genos has something to do while Saitama fights the monster of the week instead of it just being focused on him? Because that's really all it is, keeping Genos in the scene and contributing to it in some fashion besides combat.

Kitten Champion

2017-02-10, 01:05 PM

The joke is that Saitama rarely thinks and barely verbalizes about anything of consequence, whereas Genos does little else. Much of what the Genos character exists for is to stand in comedic contrast to Saitama.

I explain jokes now, that's what I do.

Legato Endless

2017-02-10, 01:10 PM

Traps, the character archetype of mistaken gender identity. Within the context of anime storytelling Traps mainly seem to exist to reinforce the gender binary through humor. Most Traps don't have much in the way of characterization, and when the majority of an archetype is used for nothing but gags, one tends to get suspicious.

Repeatedly informing the audience of things they've already been informed of, usually by a character who already knows, to someone else who already knows, in a room of people who already know. You know what I love in modern fiction? When the story skips over explaining something to a newcomer that I'm already aware of. Certainly not Anime centric, but anime has some of the most egregious offenders.

Traab

2017-02-10, 01:13 PM

I agree with your other example, and in general it's played out (mostly because it isn't foreshadowed at all, it's just pure 'determination' or 'fighting spirit' or whatever). But complaining about Naruto using his pre-established Wolverine-lite regeneration powers to fight back in a fight he STILL LOST is odd. Naruto did not gain a new power-up in that fight, he used one he already had.

You SHOULD be complaining about the bit where he gets the fox ripped out of him near the end, basically dies, and comes back to life as a literal demigod.

It wasnt just regeneration. Suddenly naruto has super speed, strength, the ability to manifest giant red arms of chakra, and is slamming sasuke all over the valley like a rag doll until SASUKE develops his next level of power and goes super emo hand wing mode. And didnt naruto take a dive in that final clash of power? Like, he intentionally took the hit just to scratch sasukes headband, possibly instead of killing him, not sure.

Rynjin

2017-02-10, 01:21 PM

It wasnt just regeneration. Suddenly naruto has super speed, strength, the ability to manifest giant red arms of chakra, and is slamming sasuke all over the valley like a rag doll until SASUKE develops his next level of power and goes super emo hand wing mode.

Not "suddenly". He used that same ability twice before. Once against Haku in the Waves arc, once against Neji during the Chuunin exams. More of a lowkey use in the second case, you can argue the "chakra arms" thing was new (it wasn't, but he never did much with them before), but it was not a new power-up, it was one he'd had since the first arc.

Sasuke's power-up WAS new, but it was also literally the result of the whole arc leading up to it (gaining the same power as the four people they murdered to get to him), so also not an example of this trope.

Neither was an asspull, because early Naruto was actually good.

And didnt naruto take a dive in that final clash of power? Like, he intentionally took the hit just to scratch sasukes headband, possibly instead of killing him, not sure.

No, his attack got deflected and ended up hitting Sasuke's headband by accident. He was HAPPY about it, mind you, since A.) He didn't really want to kill his friend and B.) It really pissed Sasuke off that he was wrong about Naruto not even being able to scratch his headband, but he didn't take a dive.

Kitten Champion

2017-02-10, 01:22 PM

Traps, the character archetype of mistaken gender identity. Within the context of anime storytelling Traps mainly seem to exist to reinforce the gender binary through humor. Most Traps don't have much in the way of characterization, and when the majority of an archetype is used for nothing but gags, one tends to get suspicious.

But, when you call them "Traps" that's exactly the thing you're referring to. The comedic - or more usually erotic - instance of a male character evoking shock of some kind by having a misleadingly feminine appearance.

There are some rather compelling instances of trans and cross-dressing characters - though certainly few and far between in any media - but you wouldn't refer to them as "Traps" unless they're specifically going for that reaction.

Rynjin

2017-02-10, 01:24 PM

There are some that kinda toe the line. Luka from Steins;Gate is sort of played for laughs, sort of for drama. Mostly drama after the first joke reaction.

JoshL

2017-02-10, 01:28 PM

The world is filled with evil Widgets (ghosts, demons, people who turn into motorcycles, whatever) and only our hero, who is ALSO a Widget (or half-Widget) can stop them!

This usually goes on to say "see? Not all Widgets are bad!" and/or "there is the capacity for evil in us all!"

Not that these are necessarily bad themes to explore, but when you watch 10 series in a row that all use that exact same framework, it gets a little stale. No bonus points for a last-minute "oh! The hero has been part Widget this whole time!" reveals either.

Legato Endless

2017-02-10, 01:39 PM

But, when you call them "Traps" that's exactly the thing you're referring to. The comedic - or more usually erotic - instance of a male character evoking shock of some kind by having a misleadingly feminine appearance.

There are some rather compelling instances of trans and cross-dressing characters - though certainly few and far between in any media - but you wouldn't refer to them as "Traps" unless they're specifically going for that reaction.

No, but other forms of media don't revel in the unsettling gender reveal like Anime does. Only here is the slur commonly accepted parlance as a whole reoccurring comedy gag. It's not just a transperson or crossdresser, it's someone who's whole shtick is creeping out our red-blooded protagonist. The listing of examples on the TVTropes article dwarfs every other media section combined if you take out video games produced by the same generalized industry.

Edit: Furthermore, it's not just in reference to transpeople or crossdressers. Anyone of sufficiently androgynous or feminine appearance regardless of their identity is part of the motif.

Dienekes

2017-02-10, 02:09 PM

It's very rarely done without it being subversive in some other way though. Monologue interrupted by someone, or him giving "deep insights" into something...that turn out to be utterly, horribly wrong. Sometimes the subversion is that it IS being played straight somewhat and Genos is realizing something about Saitama's or his own character and actually developing as a a result (his reaction to how things play out after the asteroid, for example).

Unless your problem is just that Genos has something to do while Saitama fights the monster of the week instead of it just being focused on him? Because that's really all it is, keeping Genos in the scene and contributing to it in some fashion besides combat.

After the asteroid, if we're going to use that example, would have worked just as well, if not better just watching the scene happen. We don't need someone to say "Oh they're trying to turn the people against him because they're idiots who blame him for the loss of their homes."

We're literally seeing the Tank Tops doing that. Right in front of us. It is blatantly, painfully obvious. There is absolutely no reason to have someone say that to us.

The joke is that Saitama rarely thinks and barely verbalizes about anything of consequence, whereas Genos does little else. Much of what the Genos character exists for is to stand in comedic contrast to Saitama.

I explain jokes now, that's what I do.

I get the joke. It's not funny.

Rynjin

2017-02-10, 02:20 PM

After the asteroid, if we're going to use that example, would have worked just as well, if not better just watching the scene happen. We don't need someone to say "Oh they're trying to turn the people against him because they're idiots who blame him for the loss of their homes."

We're literally seeing the Tank Tops doing that. Right in front of us. It is blatantly, painfully obvious. There is absolutely no reason to have someone say that to us.

That's the first part.

The second part is him wondering why Saitama is just taking all the abuse, why doesn't he just crush the Tanks under heel like he so easily could? That scene is a revelatory moment for Genos about what kind of a person Saitama is. His laid back attitude is not an act, it's a deep part of his personality. What IS an act for him is being a hero being a "hobby". He genuinely wants to help people, credit be damned, their opinions be damned. Going forward into the Sea King and Garou arcs, Genos has a different outlook, somewhat, and understands his mentor better. That scene is basically Genos' turning point, and the reason why his actions while fighting the Sea King are almost entirely with the people he's protecting in mind, not just testing his abilities or seeing if he's "strong enough" yet.

Genos before that? Would not have saved that kid. It wouldn't have even registered to him that that's what he should be doing until it was too late. Same way he would have killed a civilian fighting Lady Mosquito if that civilian hadn't been Saitama.

Rodin

2017-02-10, 02:34 PM

Not "suddenly". He used that same ability twice before. Once against Haku in the Waves arc, once against Neji during the Chuunin exams. More of a lowkey use in the second case, you can argue the "chakra arms" thing was new (it wasn't, but he never did much with them before), but it was not a new power-up, it was one he'd had since the first arc.

Sasuke's power-up WAS new, but it was also literally the result of the whole arc leading up to it (gaining the same power as the four people they murdered to get to him), so also not an example of this trope.

Neither was an asspull, because early Naruto was actually good.

Meh, that fight was still pretty poorly done even considering, because while Naruto had high speed regeneration Sasuke had nothing of the kind and got smashed about like he was in a DBZ fight with no apparent injuries. Nothing about the curse seals suggest they improve hardiness (since the Sound 4 don't benefit), just raw power, and Sasuke wasn't in the level 2 form until right at the end of the fight.

The fights in Naruto were pretty good but went downhill fast when the tailed beasts got involved because the raw power they put out mucks up all the nuance of the ninja tricks. That turned the end of the show into the sort of power level arms race that gets tiresome in so many shonen shows.

Frozen_Feet

2017-02-10, 02:39 PM

Rynjin

2017-02-10, 03:00 PM

Rysto

2017-02-10, 03:45 PM

Another terrible trope: when every setback a character undergoes is eventually revealed to actually be a part of their master plan. Sure, it may look like it's a bad thing being held in stasis for years while a powerful supernatural entity extracts plot-critical information from your brain and uses that to subvert the power of the best wizards in the world, but that's because you don't play 4-D chess like I do! Because clearly in the ensuing battle that entity will take terrible damage and then try to draw on my power to heal itself, and that's when I suddenly turn the tables and subvert his power, and now I'm the most powerful being on the planet! Everybody knows that being able to predict the actions of multiple people years in advance is a mark of genius, and not that I'm the writers' beloved Villain Sue.

Dienekes

2017-02-10, 04:08 PM

That's the first part.

The second part is him wondering why Saitama is just taking all the abuse, why doesn't he just crush the Tanks under heel like he so easily could? That scene is a revelatory moment for Genos about what kind of a person Saitama is. His laid back attitude is not an act, it's a deep part of his personality. What IS an act for him is being a hero being a "hobby". He genuinely wants to help people, credit be damned, their opinions be damned. Going forward into the Sea King and Garou arcs, Genos has a different outlook, somewhat, and understands his mentor better. That scene is basically Genos' turning point, and the reason why his actions while fighting the Sea King are almost entirely with the people he's protecting in mind, not just testing his abilities or seeing if he's "strong enough" yet.

Genos before that? Would not have saved that kid. It wouldn't have even registered to him that that's what he should be doing until it was too late. Same way he would have killed a civilian fighting Lady Mosquito if that civilian hadn't been Saitama.

You know there are other ways of showing character development rather than turning to the camera and saying "Wow this has developed my character!"

NecroDancer

2017-02-12, 01:16 AM

I honestly don't like the trope of the main character being "special", "the chosen one", or "destined for greatness" as it detaches the character from the veiwer and we lose intrest in them. This may also be the reason why I love Mob Psycho (I can't find anything wrong with it, super biased).

golentan

2017-02-12, 01:38 AM

Hiro Protagonest

2017-02-12, 02:23 AM

As for my most hated trope? Deeefinitely the Tsundere character trope. Well, I take that back. It's the VIOLENT Tsundere. I don't mind he rare few that keep their hands to themselves for the most part (like Keiko from YuYu Hakusho) but most of them can just go die.

Honorable mention goes to "NANI!?!?!" and "BAKANAAAAAAA!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!1110ijojusnj" being shouted at every opportunity and their English equivalents, of course. English for the last even more, since they usually add even more words in.
Yes, the violent ones. I gave up on Toradora after three episodes for one reason: Taiga's violence. She didn't turn a new leaf fast enough for me to stick around past that.

Meanwhile, Hak from Akatsuki no Yona/Yona of the Dawn is a tsundere who is an actual warrior. He would never raise a hand against Yona, he actually has to deal with his own desire to shelter her.

I still hate love triangles more since there are plenty of good instances of "light tsundere," but that's actually not really an anime trope. The anime version is, of course, harems. So even worse.

You know there are other ways of showing character development rather than turning to the camera and saying "Wow this has developed my character!"

...And Genos is the parody character. He does things in a stereotypical way, while also gaining actual good character development when necessary.

Kyberwulf

2017-02-12, 02:33 AM

Yeah. The whole thing of just ever increasing power levels. I mean like Naruto DragonBall bleach stuff. They just get so powerful. I don't know how much other people like filler episodes. I usually have fun with those.

Lemmy

2017-02-12, 02:36 AM

Armok

2017-02-12, 02:56 AM

I think for me it's gotta be the "protagonist who treats sexually charged situations like mustard gas" cliche. You know the one. "Oh no, this girl is really close to me! She's getting closer and closer and... not good!"

Usually followed with spazzing out, running away from the situation, and treating the possibility of physical intimacy like it's radioactive. I don't get this trope. Not at all. What's funny about this? What's the appeal? It's not the way any real person would act in that situation ever. It's a tired, stale gag that gets used to tease the viewers with the possibility of intimacy, and then backs off to preserve the status quo of the protagonist and his would be love interests so everybody still has "a chance".

Just... why. Whyyyy. I just explained why this gets used and I still can't process why it keeps happening in every other anime I watch.

khadgar567

2017-02-12, 03:08 AM

By far it's the "Protagonist has a super-powerful evil side that he can't control". Argh... It's every-freaking-where! And it goes hand-in-hand with the also incredibly annoying "Getting a Deus Ex Machina power out of nowhere to defeat the final boss"!

Both are so goddman overused I can't help but roll my eyes and sigh every time I see it!
yeah gets pretty boring pretty fast give me protagonist whos evil side is more competent then hero not powerful then him or if you gonna introduce fan service then introduce each and every episode not in few seconds of ova where 99% of it is crap until last 5 second of ending.

Lemmy

2017-02-12, 03:37 AM

yeah gets pretty boring pretty fast give me protagonist whos evil side is more competent then hero not powerful then him or if you gonna introduce fan service then introduce each and every episode not in few seconds of ova where 99% of it is crap until last 5 second of ending.
So many "evil within" characters.... Oozaru Goku, Kyubi Naruto, Raizen-possessed Yusuke, Hollow Ichigo, Dark Saber... Even in games! We have Evil Ryu, Devil Jin, the whole Orochi bloodline in King of Fighters...

If the writer really wants to give their character a secret trump card power, they could at least do us the favor of spending more than two seconds thinking of a reason said trump card isn't used all the time, instead of going "uh... using the power makes he go cray-cray!". :smallsigh:

Kyberwulf

2017-02-12, 03:55 AM

I think it gets used because most animes envolve people who don't have a high degree in relationships. Usually tweens. I know it's not anise per se, but the Aang/Katara thing.

Rodin

2017-02-12, 05:33 AM

I'm most sick of the tropes Always Someone Stronger/Sorting Algorithm of Evil, as seen in almost every Shounen show involving superpower acquisition which goes multiple arcs.

In its most extreme example, I hate when a protagonist defeats the big bad who is so impossibly stronger than them by powering up, only for the author to reveal after a brief breather that there is actually some OTHER big bad who is even impossibly stronger than the last one, who everyone but the point-of-view idiot has conveniently known about but never mentioned or foreshadowed in any way, and now the protagonist must go even further beyond a Mary-Suesuper saiyan to stand a chance of defeating them.

What's wrong with building on surviving villains? Maybe some old minion can take up the mantle of the Villain's cause, grow in power and challenge the heroes with a resurgence of evil. Your protagonists can already fly and have a battle aura which aggressively relandscapes any garden they want, maybe there can be an upper limit on power creep so that allies and antagonists stay relevant, gods know that there's a limit to what the real-world human body can do even with steroids. Force the protagonists to adopt tactics more complex than "Punch them really, really hard," and if that fails "Use a transformation or training montage and punch them really, really harder." Maybe the hero can start to age, find their abilities decreasing from normal decay or lack of practice, and they must find a pupil and become the new Master to a new Chosen One student, close that circle and begin a new tale of adventure in the same universe.

I think the opposite of this is even worse - where the villain is supremely powerful but never shows up until the end, because letting the hero much his way through your minions in a way that makes him stronger is such a good strategy. Aizen was particularly bad about this.

Or alternately, the villain keeps surviving and growing more powerful and just Will. Not. die. Naraku, I'm looking at you on this one.

Yeah. The whole thing of just ever increasing power levels. I mean like Naruto DragonBall bleach stuff. They just get so powerful. I don't know how much other people like filler episodes. I usually have fun with those.

I have two main issues with filler episodes.

The first is that they're typically not written by the original author, which makes the quality take a nosedive. They can be good, but they often come off as badly written fanfics or just plain lazy writing if the anime team is just trying to delay for a few episodes to either fill out the season or waiting for the manga to get a lead. The restrictions imposed on the plots don't help - can't change relationships in a significant way because source material, can't kill off any major characters, can't introduce any new concepts not in the original...etc. etc.

The second issue is that filler rarely has a budget. Anime is already done on a tight budget to begin with, and so they want to spend as little as possible on filler so they have money for the big budget end-of-season finale. This was most evident recently with the parallel universe plot in Naruto (technically one of Jiraiya's stories). They put together what I thought was a really good plot for it, one that was actually more compelling than the main story's plot at the time. And then there were the fight scenes...

Some were just poorly done, obviously minimizing the animation and rushed through to return to the (much cheaper) plot. Others just plain weren't shown at all. They set up a whole series of fights between people who never would have fought in the main story, which would have been awesome to see...and then glossed over them, because no budget.

So...it's frustrating. There's some great filler out there, but it's mostly buried in a pile of crap and the good filler rarely gets the budget it deserves.

Fri

2017-02-12, 07:11 AM

One Punch Man, is specifically, a shonen fighting manga/superhero direct parody. I assume lots of what its doing is much less amusing if you're not familiar with the tropes it's specifically parodying.

Same with Mob Psycho 100 to a lesser degree. It's some sort of play, if not parody, of an urban-fantasy-supernatural-shonen manga.

Anonymouswizard

2017-02-12, 07:53 AM

Tsunderes heavy on the tsun-tsun. AKA passive aggressive bwitches. Especially when they have annoying high-pitched voices and stretch out words. Especially especially when despite them being awful excuses of human(oid) beings, they are treated as One True Love interest for the spineless protagonist who never lifts a finger to stop the abuse.

This got me thinking about TSUNderes, and how I'm actually torn on them. While I love Rin Tohsaka and think she's a great character (although I'm not 100% sure I get why she's supposed to be attracted to Shiro it feels realistic enough for me to overlook it), but she's actually not particularly heavy on the tsun-tsun. It comes across as more of a defence mechanism, which makes a bit of sense as I remember she's been raised by someone who doesn't really care for her for 10 years (I think it's ten? I can't exactly remember the time skip between Zero and Stay Night).

I honestly don't like the trope of the main character being "special", "the chosen one", or "destined for greatness" as it detaches the character from the veiwer and we lose intrest in them. This may also be the reason why I love Mob Psycho (I can't find anything wrong with it, super biased).

You see I don't like this, but I also have a mild disliking for the 'everyman' or 'loser protagonist'. Sometimes I can enjoy it, I can't fault Neverwhere for starring 'that guy you'll meet at the pub', but I don't want to watch a series about somebody completely useless. If I could stomach Harem series (which I really should, I have nothing against polyamory, but the only one I like is the manga version of Rosario + Vampire).

...And Genos is the parody character. He does things in a stereotypical way, while also gaining actual good character development when necessary.

I think Genos's character development comes in two forms (bare in mind I haven't picked up volume 9 yet), we're told he's developed as a character, and then shown he's developed as a character. It's actually interesting and allows for larger jumps in his actions then you could normally never get away with (if Genos had saved the child two chapters after his introduction it would have felt out of place, but when it happened it felt in-character with how it's developed).

I'm going to jump on the 'random jumps in power' bandwagon, but I don't care if they're gained via training montages or rough beatings. Berserk has managed to go on and have stronger and stronger villains, and at the point I'm at Guts has only really gotten stronger during time skips or getting better equipment (and even then it's not always a massive boost), and even then not massively, and we still have a relatively early villain running about (erm, spoilers?). The fact it makes initial villains useless and/or comedic is just annoying, especially as they seem to be locked out of the same power boosts (or we get a case of two gods who can destroy a planet duking it out, which is okay if I signed up for that). My general rule is if I've been sold a story about a secondary school student who can see ghosts I don't want to see the battle against the main villain being a giant case of 'my power is over nine goggolplex!' while if I've been sold a story about a man going around and killing demons I can stomach a flashback where the man killing demons kills a lot of humans in the process of gaining the goal of killing all the demons (have I mentioned how much I like Berserk? Man, that flashback is long).

Traab

2017-02-12, 11:41 AM

What I tend to hate about filler episodes is when they introduce skills abilities and character development.... that all goes away in a puff of smoke once the nonfiller starts back up again. Lets use naruto as an example. There is one arc where he and sakura are with jiraya, dealing with the fuma clan in sound. Naruto basically kicks all the ass. He is fighting jonin level opponents further boosted by orochimaru and winning. Sakura is seeing all this and for pretty much the first time is acknowledging that naruto really is a great fighter. And then all that development, all that improvement, goes away. Naruto is back to a multi shadow clone jutsu rasengan spamming idiot who has to overwhelm his opponent under sheer numbers and gets his butt kicked till he gets lucky while sakura is back to not realizing how good he is/can be.

Other examples include the fact that naruto by all rights should be an international hero, beloved by large portions of the world BEFORE the 4th ninja war. He rescues and inspires the rulers of like, half a dozen nations in filler arcs, then its never spoken of again. Vegetable, demon, snow, birds, the fuma clan in sound, the list goes on of influential people he has impressed. They may not be major villages, but still, his name should have been getting around long before the big battles at the end.

golentan

2017-02-12, 02:43 PM

I think the opposite of this is even worse - where the villain is supremely powerful but never shows up until the end, because letting the hero much his way through your minions in a way that makes him stronger is such a good strategy. Aizen was particularly bad about this.

Or alternately, the villain keeps surviving and growing more powerful and just Will. Not. die. Naraku, I'm looking at you on this one.

I think you missed my point. The problem I have is not "the protagonist must struggle and develop their skills to take on a more powerful villain, fighting their way through enemies until they are ready to challenge the master." The problem is "The protagonist has defeated the powerful villain, now have an inexplicably MORE powerful villain for the next arc, there is no upper limit on this, we will milk this for as many arcs as we can."

Bleach is actually one of my worst offenders when I watched it, and a major part of why I stopped watching it. Oh, Ichigo has made it through some of the baddest MFs in the Gotei 13 and has reached the top of the power scale... LOLNOPE, Aizen chumps him with a finger and reveals the next arc villains will be impossibly stronger than soul society's elite, better go unlock your new transformation and struggle your way through more fights of challenging someone stronger than you and finding the power to win somehow.

Bleach, DBZ, too many shounen shows to count. What's the solution to being outmatched? Just power up some more, you'll get there.

An Enemy Spy

2017-02-12, 03:25 PM

Dragon Ball Z is like those arguments you had as a kid over which of you were winning your imaginary playground battles.
"I'm an Oozaru now!"
"Oh yeah, well I have Kaio-Ken now!"
"Oh yeah, well now I'm transforming to my second form!"
"Oh yeah, well now I'm two Namekians in one body!"
"Oh yeah, well now I'm transforming to my third form! And now I'm transforming again!"
"Oh yeah, well now I'm a Super Saiyan!"
"Oh yeah, well now I'm at 100% power!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm from the future and I'm an even better Super Saiyan!"
"Oh yeah, well I can suck your energy!"
"Oh yeah, well I have unlimited energy!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm made of all of you put together!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm a Super Namekian now!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Semi-Perfect now!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Super Saiyan Grade 2 now!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Perfect now!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Super Sayain 2 now!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Majin now!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Super Saiyan 3 now!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Super Buu now!"
"Oh yeah, well now we're fused!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Mystic now!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Kid Buu now!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Golden Oozaru now!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Super Saiyan 4 now!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Super Saiyan God now and I have red hair!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan now and I have blue hair!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Golden Frieza now!"
"Oh yeah, well I'm Super Saiyan Rose now!"
And on and on...

Anonymouswizard

2017-02-12, 03:29 PM

I think you missed my point. The problem I have is not "the protagonist must struggle and develop their skills to take on a more powerful villain, fighting their way through enemies until they are ready to challenge the master." The problem is "The protagonist has defeated the powerful villain, now have an inexplicably MORE powerful villain for the next arc, there is no upper limit on this, we will milk this for as many arcs as we can."

Bleach is actually one of my worst offenders when I watched it, and a major part of why I stopped watching it. Oh, Ichigo has made it through some of the baddest MFs in the Gotei 13 and has reached the top of the power scale... LOLNOPE, Aizen chumps him with a finger and reveals the next arc villains will be impossibly stronger than soul society's elite, better go unlock your new transformation and struggle your way through more fights of challenging someone stronger than you and finding the power to win somehow.

Bleach, DBZ, too many shounen shows to count. What's the solution to being outmatched? Just power up some more, you'll get there.

Ah, yes, I have to admit this is why I stopped watching shounen fighting anime until I came across JoJo, despite generally liking them, just one too many instances of 'and now I achieve a powerup that will be outclassed as soon as the next arc'. Although as I remember Soul Society arc Bleach introduced about 4 powerups (shikai, hollow form, bankai, and hollow form bankai) that served well enough for the rest of Aizen's villain term (although IIRC shikai slowly got replaced as the standard fighting form by bankai). Then when Aizen with his own stupid powerups is defeated we eventually get an even more powerful villain and I supect there would have been a 'bankai 2: electric boogaloo' if the series had been allowed to continue.

Thinking of the shounen I loved, we have Fullmetal Alchemist (where Al and Ed gain an upgrade about once each, but the villains remain the same), JoJo (where the cast is reset with each new part so villain power levels can fluctuate wildly), My Hero Academia (no power increases as far as I've got, although I've been told they happen in some way later), and stuff more like that. I've recently switched to mainly watching Sienen as they have the tendency to either avoid such powerups or have them not outclass the main villain of the story (although with Berserk Guts has become stronger than the villains of the previous arcs it's occurred rarely enough that I'm okay with it).

Traab

2017-02-12, 03:48 PM

Yora

2017-02-12, 03:56 PM

There's not a lot as I mostly watch the more highbrow stuff. But one thing that is just totally lame is the hero charging up a super powerful magic attack that vaporizes everything in it's path and then the dust clears and the villain is still completely untouched. It might have been surprising the first time, but now the amazed and horrified looks of the hero's friends just annoy me.

endoperez

2017-02-12, 04:20 PM

The times I can forgive the escalation are fairly specific. For example, in Shaman King, yes our protagonists are constantly powering up further, but iirc there isnt ever really a time where you think you are fighting the boss, only to defeat him and see the REAL big bad behind him. Only to defeat him and see, OMG! THERES ANOTHER MORE POWERFUL BIG BAD!!!! I think we learned fairly early on who the final boss was going to be, and the rest of the show was basically powering up through the tournament to reach that guy. I may be remembering it wrong though, it was a long time ago.

It's been a long time, and I think you're right that Shaman King didn't use that specific annoying trope. However, Shaman King's ending is the reason I gave up on shonen anime and any anime longer than about 25 episodes, since the ending ruined it all and I felt I had wasted all the time I'd given the show.

I have only hazy memories of the anime, since it was a long time ago, but I perceived the ending combining two super annoying tropes:

Deus Ex Machina powerup
The protagonist can't beat the antagonist. But Wait! Suddenly, extra power, he can! Which then results in...

Reset Button
Let's pretend none of this ever happened and wait for X time so we can do this all over again!

I don't know if reset buttons are that common in anime, but I'm very sick of both of these tropes, and especially a combination.

Legato Endless

2017-02-12, 05:45 PM

"Oh yeah, well I'm Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan now and I have blue hair!"

That one literally sounds like a preschooler named it.

Tsuzurao

2017-02-12, 06:08 PM

I honestly don't remember how the Shaman King anime ended, but I do know it was a case of the anime choosing to create an ending to avoid overtaking the source material (the manga).

Meanwhile, the manga was axed before it could finish its entire intended plotline, so a quick bit of jumping past a few things happened before leaving the series on a sort of 'to be continued' note. The authour later came back to the series and released a completed version that covered the bits that were skipped over in the original publishing run, as well as actually continuing on to the end of the story.

Also, if I may come back to the earlier comments about filler in anime adapted from a currently-running source material, an issue I tend to have there is that, because the filler episodes are usually created wholesale by the anime team, they can easily end up adding material that ends up being inaccurate to the source material (an example from One Piece: one filler arc involved Zoro cutting through steel chains, and fighting against a dragon. A fight later in the manga would establish that Zoro could not cut through an enemy who could turn parts of their body into steel blades - in fact, Zoro had to discover the trick to doing it during the fight. And later, Zoro would meet someone who claimed to have killed a dragon, and responds by saying he doesn't believe that dragons actually exist).

Mind, such issues can also come from the anime team misinterpreting some of the source material, or making guesses on things before the authour reveals that they were going somewhere else with it.

Traab

2017-02-12, 06:43 PM

That one literally sounds like a preschooler named it.

It DOES have an "infinity plus one" kind of feel to it, doesnt it?

Here is one that doesnt bother me precisely as much as it does confuse me. The face fault/sweat drop/dark cloud animation. I mean, this is literally being drawn however you want it to, and the best way to illustrate that someone was just majorly depressed is to have them huddle in a corner poking a stick at the ground while a black cloud hangs over them? Is a frown too hard to draw? Do japanese people tend to fall on their faces when shocked? Are their sweat glands over enlarged above the eyes? Also, where did the bleeding nose = perversion thing come from? Its EVERYWHERE in anime and manga. From a standard bloody nose to a full scale team rocket blasting off again effect. Now I know from watching people get cut by swords that the japanese have 20 gallons of blood kept under high pressure, obviously some sort of strange evolutionary survival mechanism, but a bloody nose when seeing something sexy? How does that promote survival of the fittest?

Anonymouswizard

2017-02-12, 06:52 PM

Also, where did the bleeding nose = perversion thing come from? Its EVERYWHERE in anime and manga. From a standard bloody nose to a full scale team rocket blasting off again effect. Now I know from watching people get cut by swords that the japanese have 20 gallons of blood kept under high pressure, obviously some sort of strange evolutionary survival mechanism, but a bloody nose when seeing something sexy? How does that promote survival of the fittest?

Obviously it's an evolved technique to show that you have an abnormally large amount of blood at a particularly high pressure, suggesting that any kids you have will be more resistant to death by being cut with a katana compared to the average Japanese child. Sure, it causes short term katana susceptibility, but that's a small price to pay for passing your genes along.

Hiro Protagonest

2017-02-12, 07:07 PM

Also, where did the bleeding nose = perversion thing come from? Its EVERYWHERE in anime and manga. From a standard bloody nose to a full scale team rocket blasting off again effect.

It's an exaggeration of a red face. So of course, it makes no sense for all the characters who are actually just delighted about it.

I'm going to ignore whatever you said about evolution and survival...

Rynjin

2017-02-12, 07:10 PM

So many "evil within" characters... Raizen-possessed Yusuke...

If the writer really wants to give their character a secret trump card power, they could at least do us the favor of spending more than two seconds thinking of a reason said trump card isn't used all the time, instead of going "uh... using the power makes he go cray-cray!". :smallsigh:

Wait but this isn't an example of this trope at all.

Yusuke is literally possessed by his dad and is super pissed about, and dad never does it again because there is no reason to ever again. And then he dies.

Tsuzurao

2017-02-12, 07:23 PM

Also, where did the bleeding nose = perversion thing come from? Its EVERYWHERE in anime and manga. From a standard bloody nose to a full scale team rocket blasting off again effect. Now I know from watching people get cut by swords that the japanese have 20 gallons of blood kept under high pressure, obviously some sort of strange evolutionary survival mechanism, but a bloody nose when seeing something sexy? How does that promote survival of the fittest?

From what I hear, it's basically making a visual gag out of an old wives' tale. Supposedly, being sexually aroused causes a blood pressure spike, and supposedly a sudden spike in blood pressure risks triggering a nosebleed. It's not much different than the visual gag of having person A talk about Person B (who is elsewhere), and then the scene cuts to Person B sneezing (old wives' tale that a sudden sneeze means someone is talking about you).

An Enemy Spy

2017-02-12, 08:27 PM

Why do anime characters always fall to the ground whenever anyone makes a dumb comment?

Traab

2017-02-12, 08:40 PM

Why do anime characters always fall to the ground whenever anyone makes a dumb comment?

Sometimes they manage to stay standing, although stooped, but their lower jaws unhinge and hit the floor instead. Kinda creepy to learn that there are snake men hiding in my anime.

Hiro Protagonest

2017-02-12, 08:41 PM

Why do anime characters always fall to the ground whenever anyone makes a dumb comment?

Exaggeration of slouching over from a sort of mental exhaustion, combined with shock.

Dragonexx

2017-02-12, 10:10 PM

Tsundere's full stop. I don't think I've ever seen one that didn't make me hate them on some level.

On another note, I realize that a lot of the reason that things in anime seem weird is japanese culture in general. Hence why a lot of these things are popular in japan. This tends to happen with many foreign works, with things like jokes and concepts not really translating well, or making references to things that foreigners won't get.

Explanation here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JapaneseSpirit

Fri

2017-02-12, 10:26 PM

It's been a long time, and I think you're right that Shaman King didn't use that specific annoying trope. However, Shaman King's ending is the reason I gave up on shonen anime and any anime longer than about 25 episodes, since the ending ruined it all and I felt I had wasted all the time I'd given the show.

I have only hazy memories of the anime, since it was a long time ago, but I perceived the ending combining two super annoying tropes:

Deus Ex Machina powerup
The protagonist can't beat the antagonist. But Wait! Suddenly, extra power, he can! Which then results in...

Reset Button
Let's pretend none of this ever happened and wait for X time so we can do this all over again!

I don't know if reset buttons are that common in anime, but I'm very sick of both of these tropes, and especially a combination.

Annoyingly, that's not how it happened in the manga at all.

I must defend hiroyuki takei by saying that he's actually one of the weird shonen mangaka out there, and shaman king:hana (the sequel of shaman king, which is cancelled because there can be nothing good in this world), is one of the best shonen series out there.

His shonen manga have weird artstyle and design that might throw some people off, but they usually have some sort of twist and completely weird story. For example, Karakuri Ultimo which turned out to be a different story that what you expected at all from the beginning (it's NOT about main character collecting some destined people that's fated to destroy evil, it's bait and switch).

Shaman King anime went in COMPLETE different direction than the manga at the tournament. The manga is somethign completely different, though, might still throw you out of manga, for a different reason (I know people who hate it because of the ending).

Here's how it went in the manga:

The bad guy won. Despite everything, there's no chance to defeat him in straight combat, and everyone knows that. The main villain won the shaman king tournament and will become god, and the protagonists are basically throwing the tournament off. What they're doing instead at first is apparently to attempt to assassinate him by infiltrating Patch Tribe's ceremony, and they have to fight all the Patch Tribes that was supporting them before, because they serve rule of nature, and the bad guy had won fair and square. But what basically the main character doing is, convince the main villain to be a good god.

It's quite weird and went everywhere at the end, where everyone basically got killed in different part of the story and went to hell but they do have a buddhist shaman ally that can ressurect them, and shamans got power up after they got near-death experience, but they don't get some kind of "elemental spirit god" power or whatnot. And despite that there's still no chance to defeat the main villain.

Nerd-o-rama

2017-02-12, 10:28 PM

Re: Creepy Stuff In Anime

Dear Guys Who Make Anime

And another thing: someone being in romantic or sexual attraction to her (and it's always her, have you noticed that?) sibling is creepy even when one of them is adopted. Stop it. Or at least stop defining entire characters and romantic subplots around it if you're not going to get into the psychiatry behind it. It's creepy and usually creates an incredibly shallow female character.

Thanks,
Nerdo

PS I'll accept first cousins as a cultural difference but for God's sake don't have her address him as onii-chan while she's attempting to seduce him.

Hiro Protagonest

2017-02-12, 10:36 PM

Tsundere's full stop. I don't think I've ever seen one that didn't make me hate them on some level.

Well that's strange, considering I'd be hard-pressed to find a real intimate relationship that didn't have some level of tsundere in it.

Although I can believe hating every character that people actually describe as "tsundere." Because the most popular characters of that description; Asuka, Tohsaka, Taiga, have both just met (instead of having a proven friendship) and insult things that aren't actually flaws of their target. If their criticisms are legitimate, or even if they're not but they've shown devotion (even in a non-romantic sense), and they don't punch someone who's just standing there, people stop calling them tsundere... for some reason. But they are.

And I'm pretty ambivalent about Tohsaka Rin. It might just be that you have no time for such people, which is understandable but not actually a flaw of the writing.

khadgar567

2017-02-13, 12:04 AM

Fri

2017-02-13, 01:14 AM

yep that exacly it is they have two big bads for two male leads( for yoh its hao and ren its his maniac uncle)

Weird, I don't remember Ren has any uncle in the manga.

Though while we're talking about it, I can point out a trope that's kinda jarring if used wrongly. That is, when the main characters have superiors/seniors that are much more powerful and could've defeated the main character's challenges easily if only they're the ones adventuring instead.

Mind that the main character having more powerful superiors/seniors/mentors isn't a bad thing by itself, there just be a good explanation on why they have to send the main characters instead.

The reason why I'm mentioning this is that in the manga, Yoh, Ren, and Horohoro's dad are still active and considerably more powerful than their sons, or at least more wise and battle-experienced. There's a really great scene I remember from the manga where Horohoro was despairing when he's fighting some very powerful shaman (out of tournament, the tournament is really just a background plot in the manga. Another example, the X-Laws are basically created to assassinate Hao outside of the tournament, they're not meant to fight him in the tournament. One of them has basically a satelite cannon as his oversoul, which I thought was awesome.), where their power level is way different numerically, then his father appear and defeats them eventhough his power level is way below the opponents, giving advice that is basically "a shark can always defeat a bear in the ocean, no matter how strong the bear is," which I thought was a great advice in context.

Edit:

Huh, I just checked the wikipedia article, and apparently a very important character in the manga doesn't appear at all in the anime, which I wanted to mention to basically showcase about power level in the series. Basically Hao has spirit level in the millions, unreachable by any other characters, but there's one interesting team that tries to defeat him with pure firepower. A team in the manga is a pair of jewish kid who has a golem as their fighting tool. Which is, basically, a transforming mecha. And it apparently collect power by absorbing other's souls, so if it absorb enough souls they said it might be enough to defeat Hao by firepower, aka ancient jewish laser beam.

Lemmy

2017-02-13, 02:55 AM

Wait but this isn't an example of this trope at all.

Yusuke is literally possessed by his dad and is super pissed about, and dad never does it again because there is no reason to ever again. And then he dies.Before being possessed, though, he awakens his secret youkai power he never knew he had, though... Raizen only possesses him later.

Rynjin

2017-02-13, 02:58 AM

That falls under "ass-pull power up/power creep", not "Superpowered Evil Side". Remember that was in the climax of the arc where the whole point was that humans have the capability to be bigger monsters than demons, and demons have the capacity for kindness and compassion. Being a demon isn't a an evil thing. Yusuke's personality is entirely unchanged.

It's even lampshaded.

"Now my demonic powers have been awakened...and I will feast on the blood of humans and conquer the world! No one will be able to stop me! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!"

"JK lol"

Quild

2017-02-13, 04:11 AM

khadgar567

2017-02-13, 05:17 AM

Power-ups in shonens.

Dragon Ball and DBZ handles them pretty good but I have big issues with Vegeta's power up on Namek (when he got injured by Kuririn so Dende heals him) and Frieza's "yet another transformation".

One Piece handles them pretty well too. There are some early hints of different levels of power the crew is going to unlock/face and some reasons for them to defeat overpowered villains (Crocodile and Ener's weak points for instances).

Bleach and Naruto started decently but ended terrible with this.
speeking of luffy oda gonna pull sun wukong on him via nami's fourth clima tact where luffy uses as his weapon on his next powe upr and using its cloud creating powers to replicate goku's flying nimbus so only thing remaining goku to do is fire kamehameha and basicly he is on par with goku.

Yora

2017-02-13, 09:38 AM

Tower of Druaga starts somewhat unconventionally with a first episode that has very little to do with the rest of the plot and is nothing but jokes about stupid nonsense in shonen anime. Even if you have no interest in the series (didn't watch it far), this first episode might be worth watching.

Nerd-o-rama

2017-02-13, 12:01 PM

Tsundere's full stop. I don't think I've ever seen one that didn't make me hate them on some level.

Any character whose entire personality can be encapsulated in one word is a problem. Tsundere as a concept is just very...memorable.

It can work when pushing people away is treated as a character flaw that's analyzed and developed around, although frankly the flaw is often expressed in such a way that alienates the audience to the same extent as it attempts to alienate other characters. It's also, and I need to stress this, important for characters to have goals and motivations other than kicking the crap out of the male lead that they're actually allowed to progress toward and develop an arc from.

When it's literally just "I act like I hate the main character until I don't anymore because that's how this romance plot goes", though, it's just head-smackingly dull on top of being an excuse for abusive slapstick.

Knaight

2017-02-13, 12:22 PM

Ah, yes, I have to admit this is why I stopped watching shounen fighting anime until I came across JoJo, despite generally liking them, just one too many instances of 'and now I achieve a powerup that will be outclassed as soon as the next arc'. Although as I remember Soul Society arc Bleach introduced about 4 powerups (shikai, hollow form, bankai, and hollow form bankai) that served well enough for the rest of Aizen's villain term (although IIRC shikai slowly got replaced as the standard fighting form by bankai). Then when Aizen with his own stupid powerups is defeated we eventually get an even more powerful villain and I supect there would have been a 'bankai 2: electric boogaloo' if the series had been allowed to continue.

Thinking of the shounen I loved, we have Fullmetal Alchemist (where Al and Ed gain an upgrade about once each, but the villains remain the same), JoJo (where the cast is reset with each new part so villain power levels can fluctuate wildly), My Hero Academia (no power increases as far as I've got, although I've been told they happen in some way later), and stuff more like that. I've recently switched to mainly watching Sienen as they have the tendency to either avoid such powerups or have them not outclass the main villain of the story (although with Berserk Guts has become stronger than the villains of the previous arcs it's occurred rarely enough that I'm okay with it).

Fullmetal Alchemist (both of them) manage to be essentially the entirety of shounen fighting anime that I've watched and not hated - or at least the least borderline case, with everything else even further away from the genre. It's just a lousy genre in general.

Rynjin

2017-02-13, 02:09 PM

Power-ups in shonens.

Dragon Ball and DBZ handles them pretty good but I have big issues with Vegeta's power up on Namek (when he got injured by Kuririn so Dende heals him) and Frieza's "yet another transformation".

Zenkai boosts are bull****, but they are established beforehand at least. Frieza's transformations and even Super Saiyan came more out of nowhere than that.

Anonymouswizard

2017-02-13, 03:22 PM

Fullmetal Alchemist (both of them) manage to be essentially the entirety of shounen fighting anime that I've watched and not hated - or at least the least borderline case, with everything else even further away from the genre. It's just a lousy genre in general.

The only 'true' shounen fighting anime I've watched to the end of the published episodes is JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (and now it's waiting for part five), with everything else I haven't struggled past the second arc. Naruto just turned me off for some reason, One Piece seems to alternate between fun and dumb in the early stages, Fairy Tail moves quickly but has no promise it's going anywhere, and Bleach just seemed to get the protagonist to the strongest level of shinigami power scene and gave the reason as 'super special awesome talent'. I mean, I read the entire MAR manga, but that's because it was my first manga.

I've never classified Fullmetal Alchemist as SFA though, because it is just an entirely different genre with an entirely different focus. Roy's flame alchemy is just OP for this particular setting (and it would be laughed out of any shounen fighting anime for being too weak, tells you a lot about FMA's power level) and nobody can catch up to him without somehow removing it, the main characters' have powers best suited to manipulating the environment, but most clearly it moves quickly and yet always seems like it's going somewhere. The entirety of the manga is a slow shift from the search for a philosopher's stone to the battle against the big bad, and I have difficulty determining when the latter takes center stage (and the Elrics are searching for a way to cure the other until the very end). I haven't finished the first anime, but I understand it goes into a completely different direction.

I'd say most fighting manga layer a few fantasy tropes over the same basic idea, while FMA is just a fantasy story in an interesting world with a couple of fighting anime tropes (and not actually that many).

Ninja_Prawn

2017-02-13, 03:39 PM

It's just a lousy genre in general.

Not usually a fan of sweeping generalisations, but yeah. I avoid pretty much all shonen stuff, partly because of the tropeyness. Josei is where it's at!

Felyndiira

2017-02-13, 05:39 PM

It's pretty hard to pin Shonen as a genre. Remember that Kimagure Orange Road is technically one of the earliest Shonen series in anime/manga, and it's a rom-com (and quite a good one too).

I can't really say that I hate any anime tropes unconditionally. Most of the time, I only dislike them when they are used incompetently, like characters who are entirely defined by "tsundere" rather than it just being a logical, explored part of their personality. Using tsundere as an example, it's what separates crappy tsundere characters (like Shana or Julis) from competently written and far more interesting characters (like Taiga or Kurisu).

Hiro Protagonest

2017-02-13, 05:53 PM

from competently written and far more interesting characters (like Taiga or Kurisu).

As I've said, I gave up on Toradora after three episodes. I cannot stand the physical violence of it. It's one thing when Ryuji's just some guy who bumped Taiga in the hall and she doesn't care two bits about him (and has a reputation for punching people who do that), but still doing that whenever she's embarrassed or conflicted into Episode 3 (or maybe I watched four) to Ryuji, who is now one of the few people that takes her seriously? I don't have time for that.

Rysto

2017-02-13, 05:57 PM

Here's a pair of related ones: first, if a girl shows sexual interest in a boy, he will inevitably react with revulsion. Any sexual advances must be resisted at all costs. It's not that I object to a boy not being interested in a particular girl, but it's not interesting when it's a transparent attempt to inject some contrived romantic tension, because the writers really need a B plot to chew up screen time for the next 13-26 episodes.

Second, when the boy finally snaps and tells the girl to leave him the hell alone, then the rest of the cast treats him like he's the jerk in this situation, and he'll wind up being to go along with whatever date-like activity the girl was planning that episode.

Felyndiira

2017-02-13, 06:24 PM

As I've said, I gave up on Toradora after three episodes. I cannot stand the physical violence of it. It's one thing when Ryuji's just some guy who bumped Taiga in the hall and she doesn't care two bits about him (and has a reputation for punching people who do that), but still doing that whenever she's embarrassed or conflicted into Episode 3 (or maybe I watched four) to Ryuji, who is now one of the few people that takes her seriously? I don't have time for that.

Since you quoted me, I assume that you disagree with what I had written, and I want to make sure what the disagreement is before I respond. Are you saying that Taiga is incompetently written?

Traab

2017-02-13, 06:40 PM

I think he is saying that the character is too violent on the tsundere scale for him to enjoy reading about. I mean, there is a whole scale of reaction on the tsun ladder. You dont have to go straight for a hammerspace mallet every time the protagonist does something she doesnt like. (I have no idea what this series is, just using an example)

danzibr

2017-02-14, 08:45 AM

I've grown to despise the smirking arrogant mastermind kind of villain.
I came to this thread expecting to say none of it bothers me, then I saw this. Yeah, I think that's way overused, and even if it weren't, I still just don't like it.

Rodin

2017-02-14, 09:23 AM

I came to this thread expecting to say none of it bothers me, then I saw this. Yeah, I think that's way overused, and even if it weren't, I still just don't like it.

I'm prepared to make exceptions for those voiced by Sho Hayami, as he can out-smug just about anyone I've ever heard and still make it sound awesome. He's about the only reason Aizen wasn't totally insufferable.

Lemmy

2017-02-14, 01:33 PM

I came to this thread expecting to say none of it bothers me, then I saw this. Yeah, I think that's way overused, and even if it weren't, I still just don't like it.I think the real problem of this trope is when the plan is too perfect and relies on things that the villain has no means of predicting unless he has a crystal ball up his ass.

Rodin

2017-02-14, 01:47 PM

I think the real problem of this trope is when the plan is too perfect and relies on things that the villain has no means of predicting unless he has a crystal ball up his ass.

My favorite recent case of this was from the terrible, terrible second season of Aldnoah Zero, where Slaine fires a big volley of bullets into Earth's orbit. The following day there's a big battle, and he maneuvers his target into the area where the bullets will just happen to complete their orbit at that exact second. The excuse is that his mecha has a predictive computer, but with that level of future-telling it should have been bringing him the Sports Almanac.

Anonymouswizard

2017-02-14, 02:42 PM

My favorite recent case of this was from the terrible, terrible second season of Aldnoah Zero, where Slaine fires a big volley of bullets into Earth's orbit. The following day there's a big battle, and he maneuvers his target into the area where the bullets will just happen to complete their orbit at that exact second. The excuse is that his mecha has a predictive computer, but with that level of future-telling it should have been bringing him the Sports Almanac.

Eh, that one didn't bother me as much, because not only did they establish that his computer couldn't predict that far in the future, IIRC the plan also didn't work out as intended (sure, he got someone he was planning to remove, but as I remember he'd set the trap for our brave 'used to be the MC of this' instead). For it's not only established that Slaine does have a crystal ball in his mecha's arse, it's also established that it's not useful for long term decisions and his plans can go slightly wrong.

Actually I'm torn on the second series of Aldnoah.Zero, I feel that if it had just concentrated on the Slaine storyline and reduced the importance of the Deucalion crew one it would have been much better because I was enjoying Slaine building his plots and plans and then have them slowly fall apart. He's at very least the kind of villain I enjoy, who is willing to wing it when his plan has problems (not that he's always able to) and doesn't reveal every setback as being part of his secret master plan that began 8 years ago and has never been revised.

An Enemy Spy

2017-02-14, 08:50 PM

Dragonexx

2017-02-14, 09:21 PM

also, wouldn't those bullets have burnt up in reentry?

DomaDoma

2017-02-14, 09:30 PM

Characters deciding they are unloved by their beau and running off in a stream of tears on the slimmest evidence imaginable. Granted, most of the shoujo anime I've seen was just kind of an unwanted package-deal aspect of belonging to an anime club in college. But let's expand that to every assumption of betrayal, estrangement &c. based on the slimmest evidence imaginable. Anime is second only to YA romance in that field.

An Enemy Spy

2017-02-14, 09:32 PM

Rodin

2017-02-14, 09:52 PM

Do you need a future telling computer for that? I'd think he could just use his computer to calculate the bullets' trajectories and thus know where they'll be ahead of time.

They have to complete an entire orbit of the earth, so to make use of that you have to be able to do all the math about where they'd be at whatever speed you fire them at, at that specific time. That's not too unbelievable in and of itself, although I'm curious as to the physics involved. Space may be empty, but near-Earth orbit I'd think might have more variables going on. Still, Hollywood space, sure.

What is then required is knowing the exact time, to the second, that your enemy will be occupying that space. An enemy whose plans you don't know. And somehow, in the total 3D freedom of orbital space, you have to maneuver someone into the exact tiny volume that a hail of bullets will pass through.

It's like going into the wilderness and setting a bomb with a timer on a tree, then having your enemy walk past at the exact second the timer runs out. Even with perfect intelligence (you know an attack will be made from X direction at time Y), the odds of an enemy being by that particular tree at that exact moment is astronomical. And as noted above, the plan was not just to catch a soldier, but specifically soldier Bob whom he had a grudge against.

Crystal ball up the ass, indeed.

Keltest

2017-02-14, 09:55 PM

They have to complete an entire orbit of the earth, so to make use of that you have to be able to do all the math about where they'd be at whatever speed you fire them at, at that specific time. That's not too unbelievable in and of itself, although I'm curious as to the physics involved. Space may be empty, but near-Earth orbit I'd think might have more variables going on. Still, Hollywood space, sure.

What is then required is knowing the exact time, to the second, that your enemy will be occupying that space. An enemy whose plans you don't know. And somehow, in the total 3D freedom of orbital space, you have to maneuver someone into the exact tiny volume that a hail of bullets will pass through.

It's like going into the wilderness and setting a bomb with a timer on a tree, then having your enemy walk past at the exact second the timer runs out. Even with perfect intelligence (you know an attack will be made from X direction at time Y), the odds of an enemy being by that particular tree at that exact moment is astronomical. And as noted above, the plan was not just to catch a soldier, but specifically soldier Bob whom he had a grudge against.

Crystal ball up the ass, indeed.

Honestly, if you do the work to get the bullets to fall, getting your poor target to stand on the red X you painted on the ground is the easy part. Do anything from challenge them to a sword duel in that spot to sticking a bear trap in the ground and stick your tongue at them until they run over it.

Velaryon

2017-02-15, 03:06 AM

A joke that's not funny isn't much of a joke. Doing it once, in a blatant way to point out how unnecessary it is, sure. Doing it every damn scene? No, that's unforgivable.

One Punch Man in a nutshell, basically. Based on your comments, I think you like the show about as much as I do (i.e. not at all).

As for me, I've got a laundry list of annoying anime tropes that turn me off.

1. The (usually) female character who exists solely as the love interest and has basically no other characterization or narrative role, and yet is a major character. I'm pretty sure one of these is required in every single anime that takes place in a school. Baka & Test is the first to come to mind, but there are at least a hundred other shows that are just as guilty.

2. Characters narrating their actions and attacks during a fight, or otherwise explaining what we are seeing or just saw when no explanation is necessary. Rurouni Kenshin was a flagrant abuser of this one, as I recall.

3. "Now I'm going to get serious/stop holding back!" Meaning that the entire fight up until this point, which has invariably gone on for quite awhile, put the character's friends/goals/innocent bystanders at risk, was pointless because they weren't actually trying. And now they're suddenly going to take it seriously. It's nothing more than a lazy way to ramp up the intensity of an action scene halfway through.

4. Important traits that are revealed and then never brought up again. Black Butler had this, where all the normally goofy staff in Ciel's mansion turned out to be secret badasses, highly skilled assassins, etc... who have up until now been portrayed as woefully incompetent at even the most minor of tasks, and immediately go right back to being woefully incompetent at everything right after this episode.

I've got more, but it's 2 a.m. and I can't think of them at the moment. So I'll probably be back with more at some point.

Rynjin

2017-02-15, 04:07 AM

4. Important traits that are revealed and then never brought up again. Black Butler had this, where all the normally goofy staff in Ciel's mansion turned out to be secret badasses, highly skilled assassins, etc... who have up until now been portrayed as woefully incompetent at even the most minor of tasks, and immediately go right back to being woefully incompetent at everything right after this episode.

This is one of the MANY disservices the anime did to the source material, unfortunately. The biggest was "All of season 2", but this was the other big one.

I kinda hope they do a closer adaptation at some point. I'm not the biggest fan of Black Butler's manga but I'd like to see it animated.

Lemmy

2017-02-15, 10:18 AM

1. The (usually) female character who exists solely as the love interest and has basically no other characterization or narrative role, and yet is a major character. I'm pretty sure one of these is required in every single anime that takes place in a school. Baka & Test is the first to come to mind, but there are at least a hundred other shows that are just as guilty.Pointless romance sub-plots are a honored (and tired) tradition in all of fiction, sadly.

I mean... Did we really need romantic pairings in movies like Transformers, Jurassic World, Ant-Man or even Mortal Kombat? No. We didn't, but that crap is still seen as a "necessary" part of story-telling. I ends up feeling forced and, more often than not, adds nothing to the story, and occasionally even takes away from it.

Traab

2017-02-15, 11:42 AM

One Punch Man in a nutshell, basically. Based on your comments, I think you like the show about as much as I do (i.e. not at all).

As for me, I've got a laundry list of annoying anime tropes that turn me off.

1. The (usually) female character who exists solely as the love interest and has basically no other characterization or narrative role, and yet is a major character. I'm pretty sure one of these is required in every single anime that takes place in a school. Baka & Test is the first to come to mind, but there are at least a hundred other shows that are just as guilty.

2. Characters narrating their actions and attacks during a fight, or otherwise explaining what we are seeing or just saw when no explanation is necessary. Rurouni Kenshin was a flagrant abuser of this one, as I recall.

3. "Now I'm going to get serious/stop holding back!" Meaning that the entire fight up until this point, which has invariably gone on for quite awhile, put the character's friends/goals/innocent bystanders at risk, was pointless because they weren't actually trying. And now they're suddenly going to take it seriously. It's nothing more than a lazy way to ramp up the intensity of an action scene halfway through.

4. Important traits that are revealed and then never brought up again. Black Butler had this, where all the normally goofy staff in Ciel's mansion turned out to be secret badasses, highly skilled assassins, etc... who have up until now been portrayed as woefully incompetent at even the most minor of tasks, and immediately go right back to being woefully incompetent at everything right after this episode.

I've got more, but it's 2 a.m. and I can't think of them at the moment. So I'll probably be back with more at some point.

1) Speaking as a guy who tended to watch it in fits and spurts, Orihime of Bleach was this to me. It seemed like her main purpose was to tag along, sometimes help a bit with healing somebody, and get captured a lot and needing to be saved. Her other main function was to cry painfully enough to make ichigo power up after one of his many "deaths". Did she EVER get badass?

3) I dont mind so much when its the bad guy saying it. Its an easy way to justify a fight going from tough to murderous. But yeah, its always strange when the hero says it. Back to bleach, I know ichigo has done this a time or two. Like when he fought byakuya and tried to defeat him without releasing his bankai.

Anonymouswizard

2017-02-15, 02:47 PM

Pointless romance sub-plots are a honored (and tired) tradition in all of fiction, sadly.

I mean... Did we really need romantic pairings in movies like Transformers, Jurassic World, Ant-Man or even Mortal Kombat? No. We didn't, but that crap is still seen as a "necessary" part of story-telling. I ends up feeling forced and, more often than not, adds nothing to the story, and occasionally even takes away from it.

I'm trying to remember the last thing I watched where the romance subplot didn't feel like a waste to me (and isn't a romantic comedy), and I'm honestly coming up on a blank for anything past Fullmetal Alchemist. I mean maybe Evangelion, but I'm not so sure there's a romance subplot as much as there is mentally damaged teens trying to express their feelings.

3) I dont mind so much when its the bad guy saying it. Its an easy way to justify a fight going from tough to murderous. But yeah, its always strange when the hero says it. Back to bleach, I know ichigo has done this a time or two. Like when he fought byakuya and tried to defeat him without releasing his bankai.

I think the difference is that if the bad guy is actually engaging the hero in battle, especially by his own choice, he's likely to be cocky. It makes those actually pragmatic villains who go all out from the start of the fight more awesome, because they aren't treating it like a game.

Rodin

2017-02-15, 04:20 PM

I'm trying to remember the last thing I watched where the romance subplot didn't feel like a waste to me (and isn't a romantic comedy), and I'm honestly coming up on a blank for anything past Fullmetal Alchemist. I mean maybe Evangelion, but I'm not so sure there's a romance subplot as much as there is mentally damaged teens trying to express their feelings.

Stein's Gate instantly comes to mind. Nana as well, although that's more like "romantic main plot". Trigun also had a couple of very good understated ones. Kirito + Asuna worked well for me in Sword Art Online, not so much the rest of the harem elements the show insisted on throwing in. I'm aware that I appear to be in the minority on that one.

Generally speaking, the ones that work are where the people involved actually take the romance seriously. Using it as an excuse for misunderstandings, jealousy, etc., have all been done to death so much that there's little point.

Anonymouswizard

2017-02-15, 05:41 PM

Stein's Gate instantly comes to mind. Nana as well, although that's more like "romantic main plot". Trigun also had a couple of very good understated ones. Kirito + Asuna worked well for me in Sword Art Online, not so much the rest of the harem elements the show insisted on throwing in. I'm aware that I appear to be in the minority on that one.

Generally speaking, the ones that work are where the people involved actually take the romance seriously. Using it as an excuse for misunderstandings, jealousy, etc., have all been done to death so much that there's little point.

That's the series I've been meaning to watch! I can't believe I forgot about it.

I'm torn on the Kirito + Asuna thing on SAO, I think I liked it until Fairy Dance, and now it's just annoying to me. Although I did stop watching series 2 around the end of Gun Gale Online because honestly I just found it dull.

I pretty much agree with you, although I think the relationships work in Evangelion because it's just another vector to show how messed up the characters are. I actually thought the Shinji+Asuka plot was more central to the series than the entire mecha versus giant monsters thing, and it was actually much more realistic than anything else I've seen in manga/anime.

Hiro Protagonest

2017-02-15, 05:41 PM

Rodin

2017-02-15, 07:04 PM

That's the series I've been meaning to watch! I can't believe I forgot about it.

I'm torn on the Kirito + Asuna thing on SAO, I think I liked it until Fairy Dance, and now it's just annoying to me. Although I did stop watching series 2 around the end of Gun Gale Online because honestly I just found it dull.

Yeah, I should have specified that it really worked well in the first arc, before the whole show started going downhill. I'm actually trying to forget that anything after that ever happened, I think.

Edit: Come to think of it, the only semi-decent thing about Fairy Dance was the romantic subplot, despite the whole "unrelated siblings" business.

Hiro Protagonest

2017-02-15, 07:55 PM

Yeah, I should have specified that it really worked well in the first arc, before the whole show started going downhill.

The show started going downhill well before that.

The romance subplot was... well, I don't have any problem with its existence even if it was easy to call from Episode 2, but it would have to be rewritten to actually have a positive contribution. It basically just went from "Asuna's warming up to him a little" to "timeskip two years and Asuna will stick with him through anything." There wasn't even really a change in Kirito's attitude.

Oh yeah, and I almost wrote off the romantic subplot in Avatar: The Last Airbender, but I remembered that Sokka and Suki are a thing. That's character development through romance.

Velaryon

2017-02-16, 04:09 AM

Metahuman1

2017-02-16, 07:37 AM

I'm sick of domestic violence is hilarious as long as it's girl on guy.

I'm also sick of "He touched her by perfectly legitimate accident, but forever more someone has a decree of Open Season to let him have it whenever the urge hits the writers because they are convinced they are protecting themselves form a pervert.".

random11

2017-02-16, 09:14 AM

Knaight

2017-02-16, 09:47 AM

Lemmy

2017-02-16, 12:02 PM

Right, but there's pointless romance subplots and then there's "character that only exists to be a love interest, has basically no other personality traits or interests other than being someone who has romantics feelings* for the protagonist or that the protagonist has romantic feelings for.

*"Romantic feelings" in this case being shorthand for the panicked fear of the opposite sex that many anime substitute for an actual romantic subplot.Most of those character that only exist to be a love interest are only there because of the "need" for a romance sub-plot. Remove the pointless/forced romance, and the "love interest and nothing else" characters will be gone with it.

Rynjin

2017-02-16, 01:22 PM

Idiot as a main protagonist.

I'm not tired of it because it's bad or impossible, I'm tired because it appears so many times.

I don't mind training montages where the hero needs to break walls with his fist, but would it kill anyone to require the hero to also (gasp) STUDY to improve himself?

This would be fun. Bleach started off this way, but after the first arc Ichigo's intelligence (as shown by his good grades) becomes an informed attribute. As do all his other personality traits.

I can't think of another Shonen battle show (where the idiot protag usually rears its head) with a protagonist with above average intelligence. Plenty of perfectly average and normal ones like Gon, Deku, Jousuke, Yusuke (even if he doesn't apply himself, he's pretty smart), but none that hit that happy middle ground between perfectly average and All-Powerful Super Genius like Lelouch or Hyobu Kyosuke.

Felyndiira

2017-02-16, 01:45 PM

This would be fun. Bleach started off this way, but after the first arc Ichigo's intelligence (as shown by his good grades) becomes an informed attribute. As do all his other personality traits.

I can't think of another Shonen battle show (where the idiot protag usually rears its head) with a protagonist with above average intelligence. Plenty of perfectly average and normal ones like Gon, Deku, Jousuke, Yusuke (even if he doesn't apply himself, he's pretty smart), but none that hit that happy middle ground between perfectly average and All-Powerful Super Genius like Lelouch or Hyobu Kyosuke.

Mind, though - strategic and out-of-the-box thinking is one of Deku's major strengths, so I would say that he's above average in intelligence.

Regardless of whether you consider Kuga or Mikumo to be the protagonist of World Trigger, both are highly intelligent and very strategic in their approach to combat. Unorthodox strategies is Mikumo's defining strength, even - and World Trigger in general is about outsmarting opponents rather than brute physical strength.

The, from older Jump series, you also have Ed from Full Metal Alchemist, Kenshin from Rurouni Kenshin, Taikobou from Houshin Engi, among others. Depending on where you draw the line for "shonen battle series" you might also include Class E (including Nagisa) from Assassination Classroom, Neuro, Light Yagami, Medaka, or later manga Hikaru.

Knaight

2017-02-16, 02:02 PM

I can't think of another Shonen battle show (where the idiot protag usually rears its head) with a protagonist with above average intelligence. Plenty of perfectly average and normal ones like Gon, Deku, Jousuke, Yusuke (even if he doesn't apply himself, he's pretty smart), but none that hit that happy middle ground between perfectly average and All-Powerful Super Genius like Lelouch or Hyobu Kyosuke.

What about FMA? The protagonists are smart; the protagonists are talented; at least one protagonist can be classified as an outright prodigy pretty easily. "Genius" is on the table. "All-Powerful Super Genius" isn't*. On the more esoteric side there's Beet the Vandel Buster - while the titular character is a bit slow, there are other protagonists that are on the above average to very smart range.

*To start with, there's plenty of characters substantially more powerful than them. Roy Mustang might have attained his power later in life, and he might not be as versatile, but he's vastly more terrifying as an adversary than either protagonist, most of the antagonists, the vast majority of the side cast, etc.

Rynjin

2017-02-16, 02:07 PM

Haven't seen World Trigger, agreed on Ed (I always forget FMA is considered Shonen), haven't seen most of the others except as add-ons to Jump Ultimate Stars.

Traab

2017-02-16, 02:10 PM

Lemmy

2017-02-16, 02:24 PM

Ive mentioned shaman king before, but iirc, the main protag was relatively smart, I think his main issue early on was being lazy. He wasnt a genius but he also wasnt ash ketchum or naruto levels of stupid.
To be fair, Naruto is more lazy than stupid... And Ash isn't allowed to grow because his show is decade-long commercial for a franchise in which every single game has basically the same plot and protagonist. You can take any episode episode of Pokémon from any season and switch with any other from any season and there'll no relevant changes or advancement to the story,

Lethologica

2017-02-16, 02:29 PM

Takamine Kiyo was something of a genius. Maybe a super-genius, which would disqualify him, but whatever. Zatch Bell deserves more kudos--or at least the manga does; I never got into the anime.

Hiro Protagonest

2017-02-16, 02:34 PM

You can take any episode episode of Pokémon from any season and switch with any other from any season and there'll no relevant changes or advancement to the story,

...N...No. The writers and the level of executive interference change.

Amaril

2017-02-16, 04:34 PM

Can't believe no one's brought up JoJo again for smart-but-not-super-genius protagonists. The obvious standout (from what I've caught up on so far) is Joseph: his whole thing is that he's not as directly strong as his predecessor, but makes up for it with clever tactics, none of which ever cross over into impossible magic precognition (at least, no more than all the other crazy plans in JoJo, since that's kind of a running motif for everyone, and Joseph's just especially good at it). Jonathan himself is no dummy, either; Jotaro is smarter than he usually seems, though he verges hard into Stu territory by virtue of just being unbeatable at basically everything.

Hiro Protagonest

2017-02-16, 04:58 PM

Amaril

2017-02-16, 05:00 PM

But of course Josuke's not the only one.

Oh, I'd never seen it spelled with a u, so I assumed you meant someone else.

Hiro Protagonest

2017-02-16, 05:08 PM

Oh, I'd never seen it spelled with a u, so I assumed you meant someone else.

Translators can never agree on whether something is spelled with o or ou.

I think "o" is the sound in "or" and "old," but hey I don't know Japanese or how romanji works. I also forget whether it's romanji or romaji...

Traab

2017-02-16, 11:42 PM

To be fair, Naruto is more lazy than stupid... And Ash isn't allowed to grow because his show is decade-long commercial for a franchise in which every single game has basically the same plot and protagonist. You can take any episode episode of Pokémon from any season and switch with any other from any season and there'll no relevant changes or advancement to the story,

Naruto was uneducated, not lazy. The guy would train himself into a coma on a regular basis if given even the slightest hint on his next step. See learning shadow clones, tree climbing, rasengan, wind nature, sage arts, etc etc etc. Lazy is NOT a word used to describe naruto. His biggest failing is he grew up with virtually noone willing to do anything to help him learn. When you have no parents you dont learn basic social graces. When you have no friends you dont learn how to properly interact with other people. When teachers wont teach you, you tend to not learn much. But every time he was given even the slightest scrap of teaching, he took it and ran with it till he got it done. So I guess stupid isnt the right word either, untaught is better.

As for ash, yeah, I get that they reset him every season, but even inside the season he kept doing STUPID stuff. "Hey, I want to catch that bird, lets use my WORM pokemon to fight it!" "Ok, lets fight the rock gym guy. Hmm, PIKACHU! KICK ITS BUTT!" (Only reason that worked was plot armor and a super unique pikachu) Every season it was the same thing, even when he legit seemed to remember things he learned, he still tended to screw up through incredibly dumb decisions. For a guy who wants to be a pokemon master, dude was ignorant as heck at his career.

Lemmy

2017-02-16, 11:48 PM

golentan

2017-02-17, 12:47 AM

Naruto was uneducated, not lazy. The guy would train himself into a coma on a regular basis if given even the slightest hint on his next step. See learning shadow clones, tree climbing, rasengan, wind nature, sage arts, etc etc etc. Lazy is NOT a word used to describe naruto. His biggest failing is he grew up with virtually noone willing to do anything to help him learn. When you have no parents you dont learn basic social graces. When you have no friends you dont learn how to properly interact with other people. When teachers wont teach you, you tend to not learn much. But every time he was given even the slightest scrap of teaching, he took it and ran with it till he got it done. So I guess stupid isnt the right word either, untaught is better.

As for ash, yeah, I get that they reset him every season, but even inside the season he kept doing STUPID stuff. "Hey, I want to catch that bird, lets use my WORM pokemon to fight it!" "Ok, lets fight the rock gym guy. Hmm, PIKACHU! KICK ITS BUTT!" (Only reason that worked was plot armor and a super unique pikachu) Every season it was the same thing, even when he legit seemed to remember things he learned, he still tended to screw up through incredibly dumb decisions. For a guy who wants to be a pokemon master, dude was ignorant as heck at his career.

Yeah... It happened right about the time I stopped reading the manga, but when he learned Wind Chakra, they told how many shadow clones he had working in parallel, and I was curious because they mentioned he got the full experience of every one of his shadow clones.

Naruto spent a little more than 100 subjective years learning wind chakra and developing the rasenshuriken.

...

That's dedication.

Zalabim

2017-02-17, 03:33 AM

I'm trying to remember the last thing I watched where the romance subplot didn't feel like a waste to me (and isn't a romantic comedy), and I'm honestly coming up on a blank for anything past Fullmetal Alchemist. I mean maybe Evangelion, but I'm not so sure there's a romance subplot as much as there is mentally damaged teens trying to express their feelings.
I liked Black Mirror's treatment of romantic subplots. Of course some of the episodes had romantic main plots too. I'm thinking of the "blue cartoon character runs for government" episode. There wasn't a need to have any kind of relationship with a rival, but it didn't bother me. Not an anime either, of course.

On the Manga front, the romantic plots were just another avenue for horror in Gantz.

I can't think of another Shonen battle show (where the idiot protag usually rears its head) with a protagonist with above average intelligence. Plenty of perfectly average and normal ones like Gon, Deku, Jousuke, Yusuke (even if he doesn't apply himself, he's pretty smart), but none that hit that happy middle ground between perfectly average and All-Powerful Super Genius like Lelouch or Hyobu Kyosuke.
I'll second World Trigger on this. Mikumo fights smart, but no one ever claims he's brilliant either.

Nerd-o-rama

2017-02-17, 10:37 AM

Code Geass was shounen (is, I guess, because god forbid we don't resurrect every dumb idea we ever had, collectively, as a society) and had as a protagonist a parody of the omniscient smug jackass villain, except his plans kept getting foiled through incredibly crappy luck. Does that count?

Traab

2017-02-17, 10:38 AM

I suppose "scholarly lazy" would be a better term... He displayed little to no interest in the more scholar aspects of ninja training, often sleeping or absent-minded rambling during classes.

True but even that was because of how he was treated. Why pay attention when the teachers kick you out of class and refuse to answer questions and in general treat you like dirt? Why treat class work as important when you have noone in your life to point out WHY this knowledge is needed when you could be "training to be hokage"?

Lemmy

2017-02-17, 10:59 AM

True but even that was because of how he was treated. Why pay attention when the teachers kick you out of class and refuse to answer questions and in general treat you like dirt? Why treat class work as important when you have noone in your life to point out WHY this knowledge is needed when you could be "training to be hokage"?Eh... I don't think that's all there's to it. Even when the teacher is Iruka, Naruto doesn' t show much interest... Even after he's been acknowledged by quite the number of Konoha citizens, he still shows no inclination to sit down to study. He's pretty close to Shikamaru in that aspect, only he's not a genius like his shadow-bending friend, although he isn't stupid either.

Naruto simply doesn't like sitting down to study, like many of us didn't when we were 13 years old. He'll do if he has to, but he doesn't enjoy it. He certainly likes the more practical side of being a ninja, though. Still, while not particularly bright in the scholarly way, Naruto is pretty smart and quite clever. In fact, his cleverness and quick-thinking was the main way he won battles before the story devolved into "let's see who's the most overpowered chosen one with the most overpowered god-like ninjutsu".

Traab

2017-02-17, 11:42 AM

Eh... I don't think that's all there's to it. Even when the teacher is Iruka, Naruto doesn' t show much interest... Even after he's been acknowledged by quite the number of Konoha citizens, he still shows no inclination to sit down to study. He's pretty close to Shikamaru in that aspect, only he's not a genius like his shadow-bending friend, although he isn't stupid either.

Naruto simply doesn't like sitting down to study, like many of us didn't when we were 13 years old. He'll do if he has to, but he doesn't enjoy it. He certainly likes the more practical side of being a ninja, though. Still, while not particularly bright in the scholarly way, Naruto is pretty smart and quite clever. In fact, his cleverness and quick-thin king was the main way he won battles before the story devolved into "let's see who's the most overpowered chosen one with the most overpowered god-like ninjutsu".

Iruka didnt acknowledge him until after he graduated, he started out the same as any other teacher but over time realized naruto wasnt the demon or whatever. Yeah naruto doesnt like to study, thats the learned habit of a lifetime of neglect and apathy from the world around him.

Rynjin

2017-02-17, 11:59 AM

Eh... I don't think that's all there's to it. Even when the teacher is Iruka, Naruto doesn' t show much interest... Even after he's been acknowledged by quite the number of Konoha citizens, he still shows no inclination to sit down to study. He's pretty close to Shikamaru in that aspect, only he's not a genius like his shadow-bending friend, although he isn't stupid either.

Naruto simply doesn't like sitting down to study, like many of us didn't when we were 13 years old. He'll do if he has to, but he doesn't enjoy it. He certainly likes the more practical side of being a ninja, though. Still, while not particularly bright in the scholarly way, Naruto is pretty smart and quite clever. In fact, his cleverness and quick-thin king was the main way he won battles before the story devolved into "let's see who's the most overpowered chosen one with the most overpowered god-like ninjutsu".

TBF, at least a hint of that thinking persists even into the final battle.

"We must show Kaguya a jutsu she's never seen before, it'll throw her off her game!"

"I've got it!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUMo9aiWDUQ)

Fiery Diamond

2017-02-17, 12:39 PM

Here's one that annoys me: Inserting random harem elements in a show that isn't about romance or romantic comedy. Phantom World was a great anime; was it necessary to have seemingly all the female characters except a villain, his teacher, and his mom have feelings for him? No, no it was not.

Here's another anime/manga trend that bugs me, though I don't know I'd consider it a trope: Genre change within a work. Sometimes this is obviously intentional and planned, such as when a big twist changes something from more lighthearted fare to horror, and other times it's pretty clear it was "adapt to survive," such as when more measured series turn into standard shounen battle series - I'm looking at you, Nurarihyon no Mago.

khadgar567

2017-02-18, 12:02 PM

TBF, at least a hint of that thinking persists even into the final battle.

"We must show Kaguya a jutsu she's never seen before, it'll throw her off her game!"

"I've got it!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUMo9aiWDUQ)
I can feel kakashi actualy face palming when he said that.

Lemmy

2017-02-18, 12:13 PM

I can feel kakashi actualy face palming when he said that.
Hey... if it looks stupid but it works it ain't stupid!

8BitNinja

2017-02-18, 12:16 PM

You know how in Naruto there is no subtlety and they explain everything like you're 5? I don't like that.

Lolis *vomiting*

People staying consious after losing 5 gallons of blood

One that I still have a question about and I'm going to make a thread about probably. Why is it that the "ugly loser" looks very similar to the "incredibly handsome god of awesome?" Is there any way to tell other than the characters saying something about it?

Traab

2017-02-18, 12:23 PM

Hey... if it looks stupid but it works it ain't stupid!

Didnt she have to spontaneously turn into a glacier to avoid losing after that move? And yeah, he got the drop on kaguya AND defeated sakura, all with a single move. :smallbiggrin: I think jiraya was watching from the afterlife and either laughing hysterically, or denying that he has a godson for perverting (heh) an amazing technique in such a fashion. Coin flip really.

Lemmy

2017-02-18, 12:31 PM

Didnt she have to spontaneously turn into a glacier to avoid losing after that move?It still worked. Besides, it's generally assumed that the character are moving faster than we see them, but the scene is slowed down so that we, the viewers, can keep up and comprehend what just happened. :smallcool:

And yeah, he got the drop on kaguya AND defeated sakura, all with a single move. :smallbiggrin:I think jiraya was watching from the afterlife and either laughing hysterically, or denying that he has a godson for perverting (heh) an amazing technique in such a fashion. Coin flip really.Jiraya would definitely be laughing, more proud than ever! :smallbiggrin:

Traab

2017-02-18, 12:43 PM

It still worked. Besides, it's generally assumed that the character are moving faster than we see them, but the scene is slowed down so that we, the viewers, can keep up and comprehend what just happened. :smallcool:

Jiraya would definitely be laughing, more proud than ever! :smallbiggrin:

That was actually my point. She had to randomly turn into a glacier out of nowhere to avoid an instant loss after that move got pulled out. It was glorious. My theory is she needed all that ice to deal with the blushing more than to stop from losing.

8BitNinja

2017-02-18, 11:04 PM

M. Arillius

2017-02-19, 10:28 AM

The will they/won't they stories in romance. I just wish that would be dropped. Some very good material comes after they cross that line.

John Cribati

2017-02-19, 01:17 PM

Someone brought up Phantom world?

Because oh my Flying Spaghetti Monster is that a perfect example of something on the wrong end of my Tiddy Threshold.

Look, asexual as I am, I understand that people who are attracted to women generally like looking at them in sexual situations, or scenarios that can imply or allude such. Hell, I can appreciate various qualities of the human body from anow artistic standpoint.

But there's at time and a place for such things. And if you want to consistently write such times and places into your story, there's a GENRE for it.

I was genuinely interested in the world they'd set up, in the characters and their abilities (though I did find the long incantations kind of silly; if I had some sort of ability but it required me to recite a bunch of lines in iambic dodehecameter or whatever, it's basically useless), but I can only stand so many attempts at distracting me with boobs- the same set of boobs at that, they didn't even try to keep it interesting- before I get more than a little offended.

Fiery Diamond

2017-02-19, 04:35 PM

John Cribati

2017-02-19, 05:00 PM

Oh, I've seen most of it,actually. The last episode us there waiting for me to watch it every time I open Crunchyroll. I just can't bring myself to do it.

It's not just that one case, though. Everything is given some weird sexual context. We get tight, intimate shots of Punch Stuff Girl (I... can't remember anyone's name) feeling herself up to switch elements. Even Kirby Girl's healing powers(?) are introduced with her showing Main Character what that mouth do.

Kantaki

2017-02-19, 05:14 PM

Tokyo Ghoul, as much as I like it, does this and fails miserably, because the only good ghouls are a very very small minority

Aren’t there almost no good people in general in that show?
I can't recall the human cast being much better than the ghouls.

8BitNinja

2017-02-19, 07:51 PM

Sometimes they manage to stay standing, although stooped, but their lower jaws unhinge and hit the floor instead. Kinda creepy to learn that there are snake men hiding in my anime.

All anime is Illuminati CONFIRMED

Re: Creepy Stuff In Anime

Dear Guys Who Make Anime

And another thing: someone being in romantic or sexual attraction to her (and it's always her, have you noticed that?) sibling is creepy even when one of them is adopted. Stop it. Or at least stop defining entire characters and romantic subplots around it if you're not going to get into the psychiatry behind it. It's creepy and usually creates an incredibly shallow female character.

Thanks,
Nerdo

A good one for you would be OniAi then.

Just in case you didn't get the sarcasm, do not watch an anime named OniAi. It's one of those things where it's kind of like a testament of mental strength to watch among my friends. Kind of like how people say things like "I watched all of Boku no Pico and only puked 4 times."

On a side note, if anyone wants anime to use as a challenge, I got you covered. Just contact me in any way. I'll even accept Morse Code and smoke signals.

Psyren

2017-02-22, 10:49 AM

Anime directors,

Please stop having your male leads 1) sexually molest people by accident and then 2) get violently punished for it as though it was intentional. Both halves of this are gross individually and put together they speak to a sexual fantasy of guilt-free harassment that I don't really want to think about.

Thank you,
Nerdo

Agreed.

And it can even be much worse, they could simply not be punished at all because the woman in question is a complete doormat/object. See Chobits, 7 Deadly Sins etc.

Re: Creepy Stuff In Anime

Dear Guys Who Make Anime

And another thing: someone being in romantic or sexual attraction to her (and it's always her, have you noticed that?) sibling is creepy even when one of them is adopted. Stop it. Or at least stop defining entire characters and romantic subplots around it if you're not going to get into the psychiatry behind it. It's creepy and usually creates an incredibly shallow female character.

Thanks,
Nerdo

Fully agreed here too, this is a massive turnoff. It's what made alarm bells start flashing in my head for SAO before I even got to the horrible rapey bits and banished it from my queue forevermore.

danzibr

2017-02-22, 01:54 PM

Hunter Noventa

2017-02-22, 02:04 PM

Something that's always bothered me a little bit is 'First Girl Wins'. It happens outside of anime too. You'll see the male protagonist arriving somewhere new, and meet several people...but he always ends up with the first girl he meets as the story is depicted, even if he met others first before that point, sometimes detailed in flashbacks. Asuna is the first girl we see Kirito meet. Akane is the first girl we see Ranma meet (though its debatable they end up together since that's one of those manga that never ended properly). Misa is the first girl Hikaru meets in Macross (and arguably better, but I digress). Even Harry Potter ends up with Ginny, technically the first girl in the Wizarding World he meets.

The vast majority of the time, if there's more than one romantic interest for a male character, he'll end up with the first one he met, even if it's not a harem-type story. It bothers me.

Knaight

2017-02-22, 02:12 PM

And it can even be much worse, they could simply not be punished at all because the woman in question is a complete doormat/object. See Chobits, 7 Deadly Sins etc.

7 Deadly Sins doesn't fit this at all (I can't comment on Chobits). The original reference was to the male lead accidentally molesting people through contrived scenarios. There's nothing accidental in 7 Deadly Sins, the lead is just a horrible person we're supposed to root for because the show is an unmitigated pile of garbage.

John Cribati

2017-02-22, 03:13 PM

Sounds like Game of Thrones (or maybe I just got used to it).

The plot of Game of Thrones is kick-started because the Lannister siblings are doing each other. Since its such an integral concept, I don't mind it as much.

Take High School DxD as another example. The main character's girlfriend reveals herself as a fallen angel, summons a spear of light, and stabs him through the chest, and his final thought is "damn. I wish I'd gotten to grab her boobs."

So when High School DxD cuts away from window dressing like the 3-way war between angels, demons, and fallen angels, the political intrigue of the demon clans, the seven shards of the holy sword Excalibur, and so on, to throw some T&A at me, I just kind of shrug and move on because it did a good job establishing itself first and foremost as an ecchi series, but enough effort was put into the world building that I can live with it.

Phantom World was the opposite. Started off putting a lot of thought into the world, then pulled the rug from under me and went "oh sorry, this is about boobies now!"

Rodin

2017-02-22, 05:26 PM

7 Deadly Sins doesn't fit this at all (I can't comment on Chobits). The original reference was to the male lead accidentally molesting people through contrived scenarios. There's nothing accidental in 7 Deadly Sins, the lead is just a horrible person we're supposed to root for because the show is an unmitigated pile of garbage.

7 Deadly Sins really demonstrates why the Pervert Revenge Mode is a trope. I can put up with somewhat pervy major characters in other shows because the guy gets uppity and then gets curbstomped for it. Elizabeth was so innocent/shy/naive/doormat that any potential humor was sucked right out by her lack of understanding how badly she was getting molested.

In fact, while I prefer that nobody is a perv (at least no more so than every day life), I actually think I prefer the deliberate ones more - as long as the girl gives as good as she gets . Accidental just seems ridiculously contrived, particularly if it's overused, and it makes the women seem overly violent. With an established pervy character and a woman that knows he's going to try, you get a sort of war that can be highly amusing.

Psyren

2017-02-22, 05:58 PM

8BitNinja

2017-02-22, 06:47 PM

5 episodes of flashbacks before a fight.

I'm looking at you, Naruto.

Tsuzurao

2017-02-22, 08:22 PM

5 episodes of flashbacks before a fight.

I'm looking at you, Naruto.

Keep in mind that you're talking about an anime adaptation of a manga that was still running while the anime aired. Many an anime in that situation have to keep the pacing fairly slow to keep from overshooting their source material. It's one of several reasons why I try to follow Japanese series by their source medium if possible, or if that doesn't work, at least search about to find out which adaptation the original work the most justice.

Also, five episodes? I'm hoping this is exaggeration, or that it's a one-off incident.
... Could also be filler? I know the Naruto anime has issues regarding its anime-original filler material.

Emmerlaus

2017-02-22, 08:43 PM

The oblivious hero in a harem setting, unaware of all the other characters feelings for him. Im so sick of this trope.

8BitNinja

2017-02-22, 09:00 PM

Keep in mind that you're talking about an anime adaptation of a manga that was still running while the anime aired. Many an anime in that situation have to keep the pacing fairly slow to keep from overshooting their source material. It's one of several reasons why I try to follow Japanese series by their source medium if possible, or if that doesn't work, at least search about to find out which adaptation the original work the most justice.

Also, five episodes? I'm hoping this is exaggeration, or that it's a one-off incident.
... Could also be filler? I know the Naruto anime has issues regarding its anime-original filler material.

It was just one situation, but it might've been 3 episodes. It was Naruto's fight with Gaara during or after the Chunin exams (I can't remember, I'm on episode 140 of Shippuden now, and I have a hard time remembering every detail)

John Cribati

2017-02-22, 09:20 PM

Also, five episodes? I'm hoping this is exaggeration, or that it's a one-off incident.

There was a full-episode flashback in the middle of the first big Natuto/Sasuke fight. That innit self is worth a sin or twelve.

Traab

2017-02-22, 11:39 PM

There was a full-episode flashback in the middle of the first big Natuto/Sasuke fight. That innit self is worth a sin or twelve.

Plus there were a LOT of flashbacks during the big final war. Just so... so many flashbacks. I mean in dbz its a full episode of screaming before they unleash an attack. In naruto its, "Lets see the entire life story of narutos opponent so we understand his motivation. then lets have naruto flash back as well to show he understands this back story and relates to it. Then lets have them talk while they fight until therapy no jutsu is complete and naruto has redeemed another bad guy/princess watching the fight." Dont get me wrong, I enjoyed naruto, but yeah, there was a lot of flashbacks.

Fiery Diamond

2017-02-23, 12:12 AM

Preaching to the choir mate. I can't understand how it got so popular. I guess a halfway decent fight scene can excuse all kinds of disgusting behavior.

Believe it or not, the show has plenty of female fans. Plus, well, people can get really good at just tuning out certain aspects from works that they like all the other aspects of. I mean, if you remove "Meliodas likes to grope Elizabeth" from the series, there really isn't anything truly offensive about it and it's quite good if you like the sort of tropes it uses. There are a few inappropriate one-off villains, but that happens in... if not a majority, a plurality of fighting anime.

TBH, there are plenty of shows and movies (Japanese and American) that have aspects that are pretty reprehensible that the majority of people just shrug and go, "Eh, it's not a big deal. Just ignore that part." Nanatsu no Taizai isn't even a particularly bad offender when it comes to this. I mean, yeah, it's terrible to grope people, I don't think anyone would argue on that point, but if you actually read/watched enough of the show to learn the backstory, you learn that even when she's meeting him at the beginning of the story, he already thinks of her as his soulmate - because she kind of is. He's been in romantic relationships with her in multiple of her reincarnations. If they were a married couple and it happened only behind closed doors, it would be a kink, not molestation, seeing as she really doesn't seem to be opposed to it. So... weak justification, but at least there IS a justification. Many series are far, far worse about unacceptable behavior.

golentan

2017-02-23, 12:36 AM

Plus there were a LOT of flashbacks during the big final war. Just so... so many flashbacks. I mean in dbz its a full episode of screaming before they unleash an attack. In naruto its, "Lets see the entire life story of narutos opponent so we understand his motivation. then lets have naruto flash back as well to show he understands this back story and relates to it. Then lets have them talk while they fight until therapy no jutsu is complete and naruto has redeemed another bad guy/princess watching the fight." Dont get me wrong, I enjoyed naruto, but yeah, there was a lot of flashbacks.

Alternately, as I recall it was basically "This anonymous ninja's life story and name will be revealed in flashback form just in time for them to be killed off. No, really, we will spend 10 minutes screen time giving this character an actual character so that you can feel bad about their actual on screen death."

It was one of the Chuunin Exam sound ninjas who they did that to that I recall. The guy who fought Shino.

(When losing the fight, activating his super powerup) -> "I cannot give up, I owe my village everything from saving me as an orphan, I must power through on behalf of my master and my friends" Flashback Sequence ->(Defeated/Betrayed/Used as Ritual Human Sacrifice by his teacher)

cobaltstarfire

2017-02-23, 12:48 AM

Yeah 7 Deadly Sins is reeeaaallly bad about groppings, and panties.... I'm kind of intrigued by the story otherwise, but the non-stop molesting being treated like a joke/no big deal is really gross. It sounds like it doesn't get toned down, which is too bad. :\

Traab

2017-02-23, 10:20 AM

Alternately, as I recall it was basically "This anonymous ninja's life story and name will be revealed in flashback form just in time for them to be killed off. No, really, we will spend 10 minutes screen time giving this character an actual character so that you can feel bad about their actual on screen death."

It was one of the Chuunin Exam sound ninjas who they did that to that I recall. The guy who fought Shino.

(When losing the fight, activating his super powerup) -> "I cannot give up, I owe my village everything from saving me as an orphan, I must power through on behalf of my master and my friends" Flashback Sequence ->(Defeated/Betrayed/Used as Ritual Human Sacrifice by his teacher)

Yeah that too. So... SO many flashbacks. /hangs head

Knaight

2017-02-23, 11:42 AM

TBH, there are plenty of shows and movies (Japanese and American) that have aspects that are pretty reprehensible that the majority of people just shrug and go, "Eh, it's not a big deal. Just ignore that part." Nanatsu no Taizai isn't even a particularly bad offender when it comes to this. I mean, yeah, it's terrible to grope people, I don't think anyone would argue on that point, but if you actually read/watched enough of the show to learn the backstory, you learn that even when she's meeting him at the beginning of the story, he already thinks of her as his soulmate - because she kind of is. He's been in romantic relationships with her in multiple of her reincarnations. If they were a married couple and it happened only behind closed doors, it would be a kink, not molestation, seeing as she really doesn't seem to be opposed to it. So... weak justification, but at least there IS a justification. Many series are far, far worse about unacceptable behavior.

She doesn't come across as opposed to it, but she also can't. She needs these people, she can't accomplish her goal without these people, and that puts her in a position where she essentially has to put up with their crap. For Melodious, said crap involves essentially endless sexual harassment, with not infrequent sexual assault thrown in for good measure. It's unusually bad.

Lemmy

2017-02-23, 12:13 PM

She doesn't come across as opposed to it, but she also can't. She needs these people, she can't accomplish her goal without these people, and that puts her in a position where she essentially has to put up with their crap. For Melodious, said crap involves essentially endless sexual harassment, with not infrequent sexual assault thrown in for good measure. It's unusually bad.I'd agree with this... But she doesn't seem to be bothered by it at all. At least to me, it didn't seem like she didn't like she doesn't like it but is "putting up with their crap", it honestly looks like she doesn't mind, as if the groping was just a normal part of their relationship.

Well... At least the few episodes I saw. I dropped the show little after the giant girl joined. It just couldn't keep my interest.

Anyway.... Another trope I dislike is a trademark of anime, but c'est la vie: Giant robots.

I don't know why, but seeing people fighting in giant robots just isn't as exciting to me as people fighting with their own bodies (and whatever superpowers they have). There are some shows about giant mechas that I like, but they are few and far between... And usually, the robots aren't the main focus of the show (or at least, they are the part I care the least about).

JeenLeen

2017-02-23, 02:19 PM

She doesn't come across as opposed to it, but she also can't. She needs these people, she can't accomplish her goal without these people, and that puts her in a position where she essentially has to put up with their crap. For Melodious, said crap involves essentially endless sexual harassment, with not infrequent sexual assault thrown in for good measure. It's unusually bad.

A few new episodes of 7 Deadly Sins came out on Netflix recently, and, well, I'll spoiler this for anyone who hasn't seen the show, but it has very few details:

Since the plot of season 1 is resolved, she doesn't have any reason, beyond her own wishes, to hang out with them. She still chooses to hang out with Melodious and endure the groping. I did notice she asks to be put down a couple time he's holding her, and seems unhappy during one really over-the-top and long groping, but in general she just seems mildly embarrassed by it.

I got a bit side-tracked, but point is: she doesn't need them for anything currently.

Lethologica

2017-02-23, 02:40 PM

Put it this way: any show where there's enough groping going on to elicit both extensive backstory justification and analysis of the target's response to different groping incidents including phrases like "really over-the-top and long" is a show I'm happy to miss.

Psyren

2017-02-23, 02:43 PM

Believe it or not, the show has plenty of female fans. Plus, well, people can get really good at just tuning out certain aspects from works that they like all the other aspects of. I mean, if you remove "Meliodas likes to grope Elizabeth" from the series, there really isn't anything truly offensive about it and it's quite good if you like the sort of tropes it uses.

This is like saying "if you ignore all the molestation that guy routinely does, there's really no reason to take offense to him."

Wait, scratch that - that's exactly what this is saying.

No thanks.

I'd agree with this... But she doesn't seem to be bothered by it at all. At least to me, it didn't seem like she didn't like she doesn't like it but is "putting up with their crap", it honestly looks like she doesn't mind, as if the groping was just a normal part of their relationship.

Thing is, the fact that her writers (who, not unrelatedly, are themselves male) choose to write her in a way that is accepting of this behavior or at least passive towards it, doesn't make the situation any better. It's still childish at best and downright harmful at worst.

The oblivious hero in a harem setting, unaware of all the other characters feelings for him. Im so sick of this trope.

Harems in general just need to die. Love triangles or even quadrangles can exist for a time, but if you're going to establish that some or all of the protagonists are actually interested in finding love, for god's sake find it for all of them rather than having multiple characters waste their lives pining for one individual (of any gender.)

Anonymouswizard

2017-02-23, 02:45 PM

Anyway.... Another trope I dislike is a trademark of anime, but c'est la vie: Giant robots.

I don't know why, but seeing people fighting in giant robots just isn't as exciting to me as people fighting with their own bodies (and whatever superpowers they have). There are some shows about giant mechas that I like, but they are few and far between... And usually, the robots aren't the main focus of the show (or at least, they are the part I care the least about).

You see I love giant robots. They're about as unrealistic as a free lunch, but I find something inherently awesome about the idea of someone having solved all the engineering problems.

Knaight

2017-02-23, 02:56 PM

Lemmy

2017-02-23, 03:19 PM

You see I love giant robots. They're about as unrealistic as a free lunch, but I find something inherently awesome about the idea of someone having solved all the engineering problems.I have no problem with unrealistic things in anime (or any other media). I'm just not a fan of giant robots in general, save for a few exceptions...

Amaril

2017-02-23, 03:26 PM

Thing is, the fact that her writers (who, not unrelatedly, are themselves male) choose to write her in a way that is accepting of this behavior or at least passive towards it, doesn't make the situation any better. It's still childish at best and downright harmful at worst.

Now, I'm not familiar with the show in question, but looking at this more generally, doesn't this premise have some inherent problems? I mean, people who would just passively accept that kind of harassment do exist in real life. In this particular case, it may be that the show seems to endorse that as the correct response, or at least a non-problematic one, which is definitely bad if true. However, I have a problem with the contention that certain writers--in this case, male ones--should be criticized for writing certain kinds of characters--here, women who put up with sexual harassment--when those characters are reflections of personalities that exist in real people. To put it another way, I don't think it's necessarily a problem that the male writers of this show wrote a female character who would put up with sexual harassment; rather, I think the problem is more likely with the show as a whole condoning the harassment as acceptable, or not worthy of criticism. Granted, the fact that the male writers chose to write the character that way probably is just them inserting their harassment fantasies into the work, but as a general rule, I think it's our responsibility in cases like this to give the writer the benefit of the doubt and trust that they're making the choice with artistic integrity--otherwise, we get a situation where certain kinds of writers aren't allowed to portray certain things that do exist in reality, which I don't think is the right way to approach art. Just because a writer chooses to portray something doesn't mean they think it's good.

Hope I've managed to be clear. And again, I'm not defending this show in particular--I don't know anything about it.

Knaight

2017-02-23, 03:41 PM

Now, I'm not familiar with the show in question, but looking at this more generally, doesn't this premise have some inherent problems? I mean, people who would just passively accept that kind of harassment do exist in real life. In this particular case, it may be that the show seems to endorse that as the correct response, or at least a non-problematic one, which is definitely bad if true. However, I have a problem with the contention that certain writers--in this case, male ones--should be criticized for writing certain kinds of characters--here, women who put up with sexual harassment--when those characters are reflections of personalities that exist in real people.

It's not that they wrote the character that way at all. It's that they wrote the character in that way because it lets their hero character be a jackass while the work still positions them as a wonderful hero, because hey, clearly they aren't doing any harm amirite? Take the situation out, and replace it with a situation where a character that's not positioned as a hero is doing this to someone because they known they won't respond, and where said action is presented as a bad thing, and the problem goes away.

Amaril

2017-02-23, 03:43 PM

It's not that they wrote the character that way at all. It's that they wrote the character in that way because it lets their hero character be a jackass while the work still positions them as a wonderful hero, because hey, clearly they aren't doing any harm amirite? Take the situation out, and replace it with a situation where a character that's not positioned as a hero is doing this to someone because they known they won't respond, and where said action is presented as a bad thing, and the problem goes away.

Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense--like I said, I'm not commenting on this specific case. I just wanted to bring up the more general issue of Psyren's point.

8BitNinja

2017-02-23, 07:02 PM

I think people have said it already, but I don't like the crazy hair. No super duper uber Saiyan hair for me!

Doorhandle

2017-02-26, 12:31 AM

Predictable milquetoast protagonists: it's was one of my problems with Lord Valadis and Knight and the biggest draw with Konosuba:

On one hand it's nice that Tigrevurmud Vorn uses a bow, and he gets to pull off an awesome trick-shot at least once an episode: it helps distinguish him. Likewise with his grasp of tactics; he's excellent at winning battles, but does not have a good grasp of longer-term implications, separating him from most lords in-series.
But aside from that his personality is... very predictable: he's nice to everyone, humble, thinks only of protecting his home, easily embarrassed by women, ect. ect. with tropes that do not really distinguish him.
It's not helped by the fact he wins most of his battles, but that's mollified by the fact the author seems to think that "I lose 20 men and you lose 200." is normal odds for a battle; it's not just because he's him.

In contrast, Kazuma constantly let his emotions get away with him, jumps into things before thinking them through, is openly defiant against harem tropes, and has "gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth:" When he's happy he's grinning like a loon, and when he's sad or scared he's... kind pathetic. (https://i1.wp.com/angryanimebitches.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Konosuba-1-Img005.png?fit=254%2C143&ssl=1)

In simpler terms, he's simply a lot more fun to watch than Vorn.

It also apparent in a lot of shonen; rare is the hero not in Goku's make. Granted, a lot less rare these days, but it's telling that the other 2 members of the big three (naruto and Luffy) draw so much from him.

On that topic: Heros Preferring Swords in fantasy anime. I'm not exactly sick of it, but I would like a little more variety. It would be great to see a protagonists tote around a lucerne hammer.

edit:

Here's one that annoys me: Inserting random harem elements in a show that isn't about romance or romantic comedy. Phantom World was a great anime; was it necessary to have seemingly all the female characters except a villain, his teacher, and his mom have feelings for him? No, no it was not.

Ditto: Both the shows I mentioned above I like despite, not because, of those elements.

I mean, I could complain that Lord Valadis and Knight can't decided whether it wants to be Fire Emblem or a harem series, but regular Fire Emblem is kinda like that nowadays... :smallsigh:

Leewei

2017-02-27, 10:44 AM

Others have already said it, but when anime gets rapey, I turn it off and leave it off. This one nasty trope made me stop watching Seven Deadly Sins within ten minutes, despite its high rating.

Deepbluediver

2017-02-27, 12:18 PM

The lead being special:
I am sick and tired of the fetishistic obsession that an incredibly large portion of media, not just anime, has with the idea that the protagonist needs to be special, either through having some sort of special ability, super power, be directly chosen by some higher power, or simply by virtue of being a "genius" in their particular field.
Thank you! This has been pissing me off a lot lately, too. I actually made my own thread about it after the Season 3 Finale of RWBY which particularly upset me with the whole "silver-eyes thing".
I don't object to it in principle and there can be some good stories based on this, certainly, but the sheer all-consuming pervasiveness of it gets tiring after a while. When 95% of media seems to have a protagonist who's special because of their birth or because of something that they had absolutely no control over, it gets boring IMO.

Try naming some work were the protagonist ISN'T born to greatness- they exist but are vastly outnumbered by the other kind of story.

Knaight

2017-02-27, 12:25 PM

Try naming some work were the protagonist ISN'T born to greatness- they exist but are vastly outnumbered by the other kind of story.

Do you mean in anime specifically, or in creative works as a whole? Either way this can be bone all day long, and while there might be a numbers advantage for born to greatness protagonists in anime specifically there absolutely isn't elsewhere.

Deepbluediver

2017-02-27, 12:42 PM

Do you mean in anime specifically, or in creative works as a whole? Either way this can be bone all day long, and while there might be a numbers advantage for born to greatness protagonists in anime specifically there absolutely isn't elsewhere.
I didn't say it couldn't be done, it's just much harder to find stuff where the protagonist isn't special in some way that has nothing to do with their own effort. The Trope is nearly as old as dirt- Achilles would be an example. And I don't object to it being used at all, it's just that lately it seemed to me like it's been getting overused. Or maybe it's just that I'm getting older and looking at things from an adult perspective I notice it more and find it less appealing than I did when I was younger.

Edit: In non-anime works there's sometimes less of a difference in power or whatever, but it still seems like a lot of people end up the protagonist simply because fate designated them as the protagonist (like Harry Potter).

Keltest

2017-02-27, 02:14 PM

I didn't say it couldn't be done, it's just much harder to find stuff where the protagonist isn't special in some way that has nothing to do with their own effort. The Trope is nearly as old as dirt- Achilles would be an example. And I don't object to it being used at all, it's just that lately it seemed to me like it's been getting overused. Or maybe it's just that I'm getting older and looking at things from an adult perspective I notice it more and find it less appealing than I did when I was younger.

Edit: In non-anime works there's sometimes less of a difference in power or whatever, but it still seems like a lot of people end up the protagonist simply because fate designated them as the protagonist (like Harry Potter).

I think that's more a symptom of conflict driving stories rather than all protagonists being born under the right stars or something. If random joe nobody off the street can solve the conflicts of the story without being anything special in any way, it begs the question of why the problem even needs solving.

Deepbluediver

2017-02-27, 02:27 PM

Knaight

2017-02-27, 02:43 PM

Drascin

2017-02-27, 02:43 PM

Thank you! This has been pissing me off a lot lately, too. I actually made my own thread about it after the Season 3 Finale of RWBY which particularly upset me with the whole "silver-eyes thing".
I don't object to it in principle and there can be some good stories based on this, certainly, but the sheer all-consuming pervasiveness of it gets tiring after a while. When 95% of media seems to have a protagonist who's special because of their birth or because of something that they had absolutely no control over, it gets boring IMO.

Try naming some work were the protagonist ISN'T born to greatness- they exist but are vastly outnumbered by the other kind of story.

Personally, I'd differentiate two separate types of specialness: the one that is just inborn, and the one that is because the character was chosen by someone else/explicitly given the power for some valid IC achievement/whatever.

For example, in Hero Academia, Deku gets a super bad***, unique power - but he wasn't born with it. He was given the power because, in the first chapters, All Might saw his pluck and desperate desire to do good, and decided that such a drive to help should get to have some muscle behind it. So Deku was granted One For All for things that we saw onscreen, and a chunk of the series is trying to live up to this amazzing gift, instead of the typical "the character is a total genius that always wins but also somehow always framed as the underdog".

Keltest

2017-02-27, 03:02 PM

Maybe, but it sounds sort of like your saying that you CAN'T have a story without a chosen one and I don't think that's good story writing. I just don't think it should be quite so difficult to find stories where the protagonist isn't the last member of an ancient race or is anointed by prophecy or has a secret super-powered mode or something like that.

Or at the very least if it's well done it shouldn't feel like a brick to the face in terms of pacing the narrative.

I guess what I'm saying is that there is an extreme amount of overlap between "chosen one" and "protagonist". Luke in Star Wars is a Chosen One by virtue of his ancestry. He was the only one who could ever have risen to the challenge, because he was special. Frodo from lord of the Rings, on the other hand, is explicitly not a Chosen One. He's just an ordinary hobbit that had something happen to change his behavior. He was made special by the circumstances after the fact, but it didn't have to be Frodo. It could have been Sam, or Fatty Bolger, or Farmer Maggot, or any one of the other common hobbits. But by the end, Frodo is The Ringbearer, one of the Fellowship. The events made him special.

Anonymouswizard

2017-02-27, 03:56 PM

I think that's more a symptom of conflict driving stories rather than all protagonists being born under the right stars or something. If random joe nobody off the street can solve the conflicts of the story without being anything special in any way, it begs the question of why the problem even needs solving.

Eh, a good writer can get around that. The example that springs to mind is Neverwhere, where the main character is mainly a drain on the group and is only really useful because he's mentally stable (which comes up once) and is an extra body. He only directly solves one problem the group encounters, helps a couple of others be solved, and in the end isn't the one to beat the villain (the girl with the strange power is, although it's unclear if Door's power is something she was born with or something learnt).

For example, in Hero Academia, Deku gets a super bad***, unique power - but he wasn't born with it. He was given the power because, in the first chapters, All Might saw his pluck and desperate desire to do good, and decided that such a drive to help should get to have some muscle behind it. So Deku was granted One For All for things that we saw onscreen, and a chunk of the series is trying to live up to this amazzing gift, instead of the typical "the character is a total genius that always wins but also somehow always framed as the underdog".

Deku made me believe he was an underdog until about the sports tournament (mainly because he doesn't really have control over his power and so gets by without it). Until then he seemed to just be a clever guy who couldn't control his power, but that arc made it clear to me that Deku isn't that kind of character. He's not significantly behind without his powers, he's smart enough to use them to succeed at what he wants, and shows exactly why All Might decided he deserved the power in universe better than the opening chapters for me (not that there wasn't any doubt as to if he deserved it before).

I haven't got into the next arc yet, but I have a feeling that Deku can't really go back to being the underdog. I know he can come up with a plan using his powers and others, and I know he's going to be working on a way to safely use his power, and I know he's going to keep trying to live up to All Might's example.

Deepbluediver

2017-02-27, 05:46 PM

I'm saying this is a minority of works. As an example, pick basically any literary fiction.
I feel like that's not a fair comparison- there's lots of fiction that doesn't fit the genre where it's most problematic. I do think it's not hard to find works where it IS front and center, particularly in the fantasy genre were it seems the most overwhelming.

Personally, I'd differentiate two separate types of specialness: the one that is just inborn, and the one that is because the character was chosen by someone else/explicitly given the power for some valid IC achievement/whatever.
I don't have any objection to the latter. It's the former that sometimes gets on my nerves when it's all-pervasive or poorly done.

I guess what I'm saying is that there is an extreme amount of overlap between "chosen one" and "protagonist". Luke in Star Wars is a Chosen One by virtue of his ancestry. He was the only one who could ever have risen to the challenge, because he was special. Frodo from lord of the Rings, on the other hand, is explicitly not a Chosen One. He's just an ordinary hobbit that had something happen to change his behavior. He was made special by the circumstances after the fact, but it didn't have to be Frodo. It could have been Sam, or Fatty Bolger, or Farmer Maggot, or any one of the other common hobbits. But by the end, Frodo is The Ringbearer, one of the Fellowship. The events made him special.
I'm not saying it's always bad, or that it can't be done well- it's the fact that it seems to show up SO OFTEN in SO MANY STORIES that I don't like. It feels lazy- saying "my character has to be the chosen one because only the chosen one can resolve this problem" is redundant; the writer created a problem that couldn't be solved any other way in the first place.

Now, I'm not criticizing LotR, but Frodo was surrounded by several people who WERE born special (Aragon, Gandalf) and Bilbo was specifically chosen by Gandalf for reasons I was never entirely clear on.

8BitNinja

2017-02-27, 06:04 PM

You're the Chosen One!

Is this the only requirement to being a hero these days?

Anonymouswizard

2017-02-27, 06:16 PM

You're the Chosen One!

Is this the only requirement to being a hero these days?

Seems so, actual competence or hard work seems to be unnecessary. Just train for three hours and give a random excuse for why you're stronger than people with two centuries more experience and you should be good to go. :smallwink:

Deepbluediver

2017-02-27, 06:29 PM

You're the Chosen One!

Is this the only requirement to being a hero these days?
It's not the only requirement, but it does seem to be the most important factor.
Like, the hero can work hard and struggle and sacrifice, but at the end of the day the victory comes down to their special factor, and anyone who worked and struggled just as hard and sacrificed just as much would have failed.

8BitNinja

2017-02-27, 06:53 PM

It's not the only requirement, but it does seem to be the most important factor.
Like, the hero can work hard and struggle and sacrifice, but at the end of the day the victory comes down to their special factor, and anyone who worked and struggled just as hard and sacrificed just as much would have failed.

I think the "Chosen One" can be played to where that doesn't make the character a hero. Take Skyrim for example. Everyone thinks that you are the prophesied Dragonborn of legend to save the world. However, nothing in the prophecy of the Dragonborn is specific. Besides, when you talk to Arngir on High Hrothgar, he says that there is more than one Dragonborn, it's just that you are the only one to appear. As a result, you can actually be the villain.

Maybe if this approach was taken, it would be a bit better.

Seppl

2017-02-27, 06:59 PM

You're the Chosen One!

Is this the only requirement to being a hero these days?

It is an easy way to write a story, that why it is so popular. You get both: A reason for your hero to be the hero, and a conflict when they first refuse the call. And probably some more drama when something bad happens to a loved one in order to make them take up the mantle of the Chosen One. Add some special effects and a corny villain out to destroy the world and you got your popcorn movie.

Felyndiira

2017-02-27, 07:04 PM

I think the "Chosen One" can be played to where that doesn't make the character a hero. Take Skyrim for example. Everyone thinks that you are the prophesied Dragonborn of legend to save the world. However, nothing in the prophecy of the Dragonborn is specific. Besides, when you talk to Arngir on High Hrothgar, he says that there is more than one Dragonborn, it's just that you are the only one to appear. As a result, you can actually be the villain.

Maybe if this approach was taken, it would be a bit better.

Skyrim is a bit unique, though, in that it's a open-world game. Since you directly control the dragonborn, you can do whatever you want in the world - whether it's killing dragons or randomly throwing daedric armor from a rooftop at pedestrians or putting random sweet rolls in the pockets of giants. A more linear media like anime or (light) novels can't achieve the same amount of freedom, so they are forced to define the hero in some way.

If you are referring to the hero being a chosen one and a villain or byronic hero, plenty of popular anime have done exactly that to various degrees of success - or at least straddled the border enough to leave the interpretation to the audience.

Seppl

2017-02-27, 07:07 PM

I think the "Chosen One" can be played to where that doesn't make the character a hero. Take Skyrim for example. Everyone thinks that you are the prophesied Dragonborn of legend to save the world. However, nothing in the prophecy of the Dragonborn is specific. Besides, when you talk to Arngir on High Hrothgar, he says that there is more than one Dragonborn, it's just that you are the only one to appear. As a result, you can actually be the villain.

Maybe if this approach was taken, it would be a bit better.The Elder Scrolls in general take this approach: Yes, you are the Prophesied One of Legend. But you are so because your deeds fit the prophecy, not the other way around. Morrowind gets quite explicit with this theme when you actually meet a lot of other people who could have been the Nerevarine but did not quite make it. Indeed, the emperor just sent you to Morrowind because you randomly fit some parts of the Prophecy already (your star sign, that a lot of people share), and some orders for the Blades to make you pursue the other missing parts. Build your own Chosen One!

The other games have similar themes but a bit more subtle.

DomaDoma

2017-02-27, 07:32 PM

The open-worldedness of Morrowind having the result that the Nerevarine actually gets subtle in-jokes about how there will never be an in-universe book written about them.

Was going to object to the application to Oblivion, but it's true, the Champion of Cyrodiil is mildly prophesied. Only in the sense of "so, here are a couple of grand, vague details about the main quest", but it counts. But still, I'd say the fundamental appeal of that character is that, as far as you're concerned, you're someone who was in the wrong place at the wrong time and makes the best of it.

That "wrong time" thing is rather a recurring millstone around the main quest's neck, though, isn't it? Me, I maintain that this is the main thing Nu-Hatta was babbling about in the Nu-Mantia Intercept.

Speaking of Oblivion, there is definitely a trope running through anime that you can't shut the barn door until, just, so many horses have already come out. It's a good way to make the climax as epic as it possibly can be, I know, but you'd think, at the least, that a medium so dedicated to anti-war messages would occasionally stop a war before it starts.

8BitNinja

2017-02-27, 08:46 PM

Skyrim is a bit unique, though, in that it's a open-world game. Since you directly control the dragonborn, you can do whatever you want in the world - whether it's killing dragons or randomly throwing daedric armor from a rooftop at pedestrians or putting random sweet rolls in the pockets of giants. A more linear media like anime or (light) novels can't achieve the same amount of freedom, so they are forced to define the hero in some way.

If you are referring to the hero being a chosen one and a villain or byronic hero, plenty of popular anime have done exactly that to various degrees of success - or at least straddled the border enough to leave the interpretation to the audience.

That is a point, but there still is the idea of the deeds fitting the prophecy, not the other way around.

Traab

2017-02-27, 10:38 PM

Being "The Chosen One", is also an easy excuse to explain why this nobody character from nowheresville doesntexististantinople is able to hang with the inevitable big dogs he will run into. Take Bleach as an example. Ichigo has to be able to stand toe to toe with beings that have spent centuries training, practicing, and enhancing their abilities, and he has like, a month to figure it out in. If he was joe blow normal dude then he would have died long before the rescue rukia arc finished. (probably before it actually started tbh) So they had to make him "special" and as the story went on we got to learn just how absurdly special he was the whole time. Because otherwise it made no freaking sense that he was this good. Its basically a plot hole remover.

"How does he get that powerful?"

"Duh, he is special, thats how."

Nerd-o-rama

2017-02-27, 11:30 PM

Harry Potter wasn't even chosen by some higher power. He was the child of two talented wizards who got the ass end of someone else's self-fulfilling prophecy and then a Cinderella childhood. The later books are very explicit in stating that, in spite of in-universe perception to the contrary, there's nothing special about Harry per se, just the choices other people made that put him in the position where he has to do all this stuff.

A much more straightforward example from British fantasy would be Frodo from Lord of the Rings. While LotR does have its chosen one destined to restore the ancient bloodline of doing that thing, the actual protagonist of the book is some schmuck from the middle of nowhere who got a strange inheritance from his wacky uncle. Or his gardener. I've heard arguments for both.

Back to anime, there tend to be two kinds of anime protagonist in action-oriented shows: an apparent nobody with a special background that makes them relevant, or the badass professional that gets tied up in things because of skills he developed himself - your Spike Spiegels, your Kenshin Himuras, etc. Sometimes there's a mix of the two where the badass does have a special superpowered background, but they tend to do their best to ignore this until someone else makes it relevant: Goku, Vash the Stampede, and pals.

The former naturally tend to be younger and can often seem more prolific in the "anime written for teenage boys" field. Sometimes it's a special background, like Ichigo's being one-third everything or whatever the hell Naruto's deal is, and sometimes it's a generic "great potential for superpowers" like every third Gundam protagonist. I would argue that this is not really that ubiquitous, even focused on shonen action specifically, because you always have the aforementioned badasses and then guys like Luffy from One Piece who are just kinda there.

John Cribati

2017-02-27, 11:37 PM

Sometimes it's a special background, like Ichigo's being one-third everything or whatever the hell Naruto's deal is, and sometimes it's a generic "great potential for superpowers" like every third Gundam protagonist.

Naruto is actually an example of "both."

Rynjin

2017-02-27, 11:42 PM

Naruto is a hella weird zigzag of that kind of trope too. You have a character who:

1.) Starts off utterly inept, but

2.) Has a special power that make shim stronger, but

3.) That's still pretty useless to him without the massive amounts of hard work he puts into improving and then

4.) The power becomes actively harmful to him and screws him over to the point he has to stop using it but then

5.) He has a literal prophecy making him the chosen one except

6.) It's really open ended and could basically be anyone who was trained by who he was trained by that wasn't a complete ******* and then

7.) It gives the moral (ish) that hard work beats everything and all that with Sage Mode capping off his strength against Pein except now

8.) Turns out he was the son of the Hokage, so it's In the blood" after all and THEN

9.) He IS the chosen one reincarnation of a demigod although

10.) That demigod's influence literally makes him utterly inept at everything, lacking even a shred of natural talent

So the moral of the story is...sometimes you have so many special snowflake backgrounds that they CANCEL EACH OTHER OUT and end up making you SUB-NORMAL in talent.

Kitten Champion

2017-02-28, 12:10 AM

5.) He has a literal prophecy making him the chosen one except

It's funny, prophecy isn't prolific in Japanese anime/manga the way it is in Western fantasy literature and tends towards the ironic or mutable. It's something I hadn't really considered, but it does make sense given certain gulfs between the literary traditions.

Its inclusion into the Naruto universe was... strange, rather than "oh, this again".

Lord Raziere

2017-02-28, 02:07 AM

So the moral of the story is...sometimes you have so many special snowflake backgrounds that they CANCEL EACH OTHER OUT and end up making you SUB-NORMAL in talent.

Yeah Naruto is a weird mindscrew of a backstory that makes too little sense when you think about it. I like special snowflakes yes, but keep it to 1 or 2 special stuff aye? You only need one or two notable things to stand out.

Stuff like this has gotten to the point where in fan fics, people like Naruto or Ash Ketchum treat being a special hero as just a part of their daily lives:
"Oh I came across another village that says I'm the chosen of prophecy destined to save them? huh, third one this week, must be a slow month. Pikachu just thunderbolt whatever looks threatening."
"Oh something gone horribly wrong on a mission I participate in? Who would've ever guessed, let me guess you want to take over this third world country for some stupid reason, rasengan, your dead, bye."
"oh hi I'm a gundam protagonist, yeah I've probably seen millions of deaths and war crimes in a few episodes than most people will ever see in their entire lives? Oh its a Char clone kill it now before it has a chance to spread the infection, don't worry my particular gundam is overpowered in a way that is not yet mass-producible!"

Doorhandle

2017-02-28, 05:57 AM

Stuff like this has gotten to the point where in fan fics, people like Naruto or Ash Ketchum treat being a special hero as just a part of their daily lives:
"Oh I came across another village that says I'm the chosen of prophecy destined to save them? huh, third one this week, must be a slow month. Pikachu just thunderbolt whatever looks threatening."
"Oh something gone horribly wrong on a mission I participate in? Who would've ever guessed, let me guess you want to take over this third world country for some stupid reason, rasengan, your dead, bye."
"oh hi I'm a gundam protagonist, yeah I've probably seen millions of deaths and war crimes in a few episodes than most people will ever see in their entire lives? Oh its a Char clone kill it now before it has a chance to spread the infection, don't worry my particular gundam is overpowered in a way that is not yet mass-producible!"

"Teufort News. How does it feel to be heroes? "
"If I'm honest? Feels like a Saturday.." :
smallbiggrin:

Back on topic, freeze-frames: particularly when they're supposed to be showing something fast and have pointless motion lines. It's like SHWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-get on with it the next attack, jeez!

I'm a bit more forgiving of when something described as taking 3 seconds looks like 20 seconds on screen but it still strains my suspension of disbelief a bit. Looking at you, Hit, Freeza... basically anything in DBZ actually.

The pacing in a lot of shonen anime is a bit annoying to me, but that has a lot of good reasons (adapting from manga, building tension,, trying to stall for the next volume, ect) so I try to ignore it. Plus, I was basically raised on stick-fight animations so I guess I expect combat to be a lot faster.

John Cribati

2017-02-28, 07:47 AM

Would you really call Naruto being son of the Fourth Hokage a "reveal?"

What, you think the dude with spiky yellow hair just... took a break from fighting the giant demon fox terrorizing the city to ask around for a baby to seal it into and only finds a baby with the same spiky yellow hair?

Anonymouswizard

2017-02-28, 07:54 AM

Back to anime, there tend to be two kinds of anime protagonist in action-oriented shows: an apparent nobody with a special background that makes them relevant, or the badass professional that gets tied up in things because of skills he developed himself - your Spike Spiegels, your Kenshin Himuras, etc.

I significantly prefer the latter type to be brutally honest. It just requires less suspension of disbelief than 'oh Ichigo has gained another power up, better find a new villain' (series which start badass professionals also tend to stay lower on the power level and avoid power ups, which actually makes it more entertaining). Sure, anybody can beat the opponent when they're special, but when you're a good enforcer because you've spent years as an investigator already and train every day to keep your body in good condition? Then I believe the character's victory is hard won.

Traab

2017-02-28, 10:48 AM

Yeah Naruto is a weird mindscrew of a backstory that makes too little sense when you think about it. I like special snowflakes yes, but keep it to 1 or 2 special stuff aye? You only need one or two notable things to stand out.

Stuff like this has gotten to the point where in fan fics, people like Naruto or Ash Ketchum treat being a special hero as just a part of their daily lives:
"Oh I came across another village that says I'm the chosen of prophecy destined to save them? huh, third one this week, must be a slow month. Pikachu just thunderbolt whatever looks threatening."
"Oh something gone horribly wrong on a mission I participate in? Who would've ever guessed, let me guess you want to take over this third world country for some stupid reason, rasengan, your dead, bye."
"oh hi I'm a gundam protagonist, yeah I've probably seen millions of deaths and war crimes in a few episodes than most people will ever see in their entire lives? Oh its a Char clone kill it now before it has a chance to spread the infection, don't worry my particular gundam is overpowered in a way that is not yet mass-producible!"

Heh, I actually find those amusing. Same goes for harry potter fics btw. Thats where I keep finding references to the main character calling himself Fates Witch (with a B)

Rodin

2017-02-28, 11:05 AM

6.) It's really open ended and could basically be anyone who was trained by who he was trained by that wasn't a complete ******* and then

Actually, with the "or may destroy it" attached to the prophecy, literally any of them might have qualified. From a meta perspective we know who it had to be, but in-universe the prophecy turned out to be pretty useless, at least until the various students started getting bumped off.

"Oh, you must be the child of prophecy...by default, since all the rest of them are dead..."

"EDO TENSEI!"

"...Nevermind."

Traab

2017-02-28, 11:10 AM

Actually, with the "or may destroy it" attached to the prophecy, literally any of them might have qualified. From a meta perspective we know who it had to be, but in-universe the prophecy turned out to be pretty useless, at least until the various students started getting bumped off.

"Oh, you must be the child of prophecy...by default, since all the rest of them are dead..."

"EDO TENSEI!"

"...Nevermind."

Heh, I read a hp fanfic where they spent a full chapter tearing apart the entire prophecy line by line and showing how it had so many thousands of possible interpretations it was utterly meaningless except in hindsight because it could be mashed into meaning retroactively. And yeah, the naruto one is odd.

Dragonexx

2017-02-28, 09:03 PM

I believe it's mentioned in canon that prophecies are mostly bull**** that are either so vague you won't get the real meaning until after it's happened, or self-fufilling.

Doorhandle

2017-03-01, 05:35 AM

I believe it's mentioned in canon that prophecies are mostly bull**** that are either so vague you won't get the real meaning until after it's happened, or self-fufilling.

Wouldn't surprise me if that was also the case for a lot of historical prophecies. It doesn't help that most source about them in ancient history were written long after those events came to pass; it's possible that they were written into the records later, as a sort of self-justification or explanation for transpiring events.

One case off the top of my head involved the Han Emperor Wu, and how many more eclipses were recorded in ancient historical record than could have actually happened according to astronomical data...

Rodin

2017-03-01, 11:34 AM

Wouldn't surprise me if that was also the case for a lot of historical prophecies. It doesn't help that most source about them in ancient history were written long after those events came to pass; it's possible that they were written into the records later, as a sort of self-justification or explanation for transpiring events.

One case off the top of my head involved the Han Emperor Wu, and how many more eclipses were recorded in ancient historical record than could have actually happened according to astronomical data...

That's because astronomical data doesn't take into account Tianlong flying up to block out the sun.

-D-

2017-03-01, 11:38 AM

Trope I'm most sick of: Use the power of Friendship!

Traab

2017-03-01, 12:04 PM

Trope I'm most sick of: Use the power of Friendship!

Related trope. "Oh no, our hero just got murdered so hard he died from it!! I will cry really hard and he will come back to life and win." Look, im ok with a guy getting his ass kicked and finding the strength to get back up and unleash a final all or nothing attack because too many people are counting on him or whatever. But when you have a hole blown through your heart, no amount of crying will make a difference. Yes im still looking at you Ichigo.

I dunno if the writer was tired of sticking to the generic power of friendship style trope where a badly beaten hero can keep getting up till he wins because he "has to" so he decided to ramp it up to gorram resurrection level "cant give up" or if he just thought it would be awesome to inform us that in this world if someone screams your name right after you die, you get an extra life. Either way... stupid.

Kalmageddon

2017-03-01, 01:49 PM

The protagonist/s being teenagers even when it makes no sense, like when they are supposed to have a meaningful career or a relevant military rank.
Characters being rebellious for the sake of being rebellious. Snarking at superior officers, never following protocol and in general acting like they are above being polite.
Vengeance with a side dish of "I have to become stronger" as motive. It's as shallow as motivations can possibly go.
Dumb idiot with a voracious appetite as protagonist.
Borderline sociopathic characters that we are supposed to find cool and edgy, especially if they are super detached and smug.
Charles Atlas Superpowers. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower)
Gratuitous fanservice, especially of the impratically skimpy outfit and panty shot variety.
Everyone being a bishonen, with the more overtly masculine characters being a parody and/or coming across as gross or unrefined.

Also, +1 to "no-selling super attacks" and "romantically oblivious protagonist being afraid of sex".

TL,DR: all tropes that identify the shonen and harem genre.

Anonymouswizard

2017-03-01, 04:04 PM

in this world if someone screams your name right after you die, you get an extra life.

I now want to write a story based around that. I can see the rich employing people to follow them around and stream their name just after death.

Traab

2017-03-01, 04:35 PM

I now want to write a story based around that. I can see the rich employing people to follow them around and stream their name just after death.

Historically the rich hired mourners to be distraught at their funerals so they seemed to be well loved and popular, so this would make total sense.

Doorhandle

2017-03-01, 04:40 PM

I now want to write a story based around that. I can see the rich employing people to follow them around and stream their name just after death.

How long would the effect last? Could archeologists raise the ancient dead by screaming random names?

In a fantasy setting, a silence spell would suddenly become a powerful assassination tool... Not to mention explosives would be powerful regardless of setting.
This idea could get interesting.

In a related note, TVtropes (yes, I know) has two pages that discuss (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JapaneseSpirit) in detail why shonen anime is what it is, and why a lot of these cliches exist. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/JapaneseSpirit)

No such luck for harem series, with the exception of "Shonen series with additional boobs."

Speaking of, anime that can be described as "X, but with additional boobs." I get it, Mangakas get lonely, but it's kinda eclipsing the spectrum of japanese media at this point.

Anonymouswizard

2017-03-01, 05:23 PM

How long would the effect last? Could archeologists raise the ancient dead by screaming random names?

The general idea I had was that it would have to be 'soon', I'm currently varying between about five minutes and an hour as a time limit, just to avoid the 'reviving historical figures' bit.

In a fantasy setting, a silence spell would suddenly become a powerful assassination tool... Not to mention explosives would be powerful regardless of setting.
This idea could get interesting.

True, now you mention it there's a lot more possibilities than I originally thought of.

No such luck for harem series, with the exception of "Shonen series with additional boobs."

Speaking of, anime that can be described as "X, but with additional boobs." I get it, Mangakas get lonely, but it's kinda eclipsing the spectrum of japanese media at this point.

Gah, I'm agreeing here. Heck, I stop watching anime these days if there's just too much boobs for me (applies to volume as well as quantity, I can't get past the 'two melons on a stick figure' look).

8BitNinja

2017-03-01, 05:38 PM

There is also the exact opposite. Path from Record of the Lodoss War. He's pretty bad at fighting for being a fighter.

And yes, fighter as in the D&D class. The script was actually based off of a D&D game, you can look it up

Nerd-o-rama

2017-03-01, 06:40 PM

So the moral of the story is...sometimes you have so many special snowflake backgrounds that they CANCEL EACH OTHER OUT and end up making you SUB-NORMAL in talent.

I've been playing a lot of Crusader Kings II lately and that sadly makes thst sentence make a lot of sense to me.

Traab

2017-03-01, 07:22 PM

Here is a statement and a question related to all this. It got brought to mind with an earlier post about the overabundance of boobies, the boobiebundance if you will. It occurred to me that, as well as the cardboard cutout personality traits female characters get in things like harem anime/manga especially, you know, tsundere, demure, etc etc etc. There are also stereotypical cardboard cutout body types as well. In just about any anime with a decent cast of female characters, you will get very specific models. The lolicon, the pettanko, the svelte, and the oppai monster. You might get a number of in between groups but you will almost always see these body types included. Sometimes there is overlap, the loli can be the pettanko for example, but not always, sakura was pretty flat chested in naruto, and clearly not a loli.

Anyways, the question was, is there a similar stereotype for male body types? As an example, the main protagonist in naruto, one piece, and bleach are very similar, in that they are slender in build. Yes their faces, hair, even height are different. But none of them are general armstrongs or zaraki kenpachis, or frankys I guess.

Doorhandle

2017-03-01, 07:37 PM

I see what you mean. Guys get a little more variance, but protagonist body types tend to vary between "80 pound weakling" "slender as the weakling but actually has muscles now" "archetypical bishounen body" and "broad shouldered bodybuilder." Nowaday, the second one or in particular the first one transitioning into the second one is pretty common, as the average protagonist is a high school student or a similar age.

Of course, western comics are not immune to having similar body-types either... I guess humanity just prefers attractive people.

Deepbluediver

2017-03-01, 08:50 PM

I'll be honest- I'm kind of split over the fanservice debate. One the one hand, if a series runs on it then it's usually not hard to know what you're getting into, and I think it's reasonable to say it's as valid as any other genre. I do wish it was sometimes easier to find stuff that didn't have it, but anime is, AFAIK, a fairly low profit-margin business and sometimes I guess they have to appeal to a broad audience/the lowest common denominator. I can and have ignored the romance aspects of some series because that's not my thing, maybe the creators are hoping you can ignore the titillation and enjoy the rest.

It does upset me at times, usually when you're in the middle of an intense, serious, non-fanservicy story and all of a sudden out of nowhere we get a scene of the volutptious female protagonist taking a shower. It's jarring and completely destroys the tone, I feel it's personally insulting to pander to my base instincts like that, and I feel it shows that the writer isn't confident enough that you'll want to continue reading/watching their story without the promise of almost-nudity.

I actually find this more distasteful in western comics than I do in anime. For whatever reason anime is more cartoonish and I feel it's easier to ignore or gloss over. While in things like DC and Marvel we'll be having some intense debate on a thinly-veiled allegory over prosecution of minorities or the corruption of absolute power, and then out of nowhere we'll get a scene that contrives to have the super-model superheroes on her knees with her legs apart, chest thrust out, and hand behind her head. It's creates this weird dichotomy where you've got a setting/picture/story that no one under 14 or over 15 should be looking at.
[/endrant]

Doorhandle

2017-03-01, 09:20 PM

It does upset me at time, usually when you're in the middle of an intense, serious, non-fanservicy story and all of a sudden out of nowhere we get a scene of the volutptious female protagonist taking a shower. It's jarring and completely destroys the tone, I feel it's personally insulting to pander to my base instincts like that, and I feel it shows that the writer isn't confident enough that you'll want to continue reading/watching their story without the promise of almost-nudity.

[/endrant]

Quoted for truth there: I guess that's the real problem many people have with the whole business.

Lord Raziere

2017-03-01, 09:44 PM

Quoted for truth there: I guess that's the real problem many people have with the whole business.

I'm guessing its the same reason Linkara has a problem with skimpy fanservicey stuff in comic books: We have internet for that now. we can find far more hardcore stuff by going to the right site and focusing on things that are nothing but that, we don't need this fan-service thats just weak by comparison because all it is, is distracting.

Traab

2017-03-01, 09:58 PM

I'm guessing its the same reason Linkara has a problem with skimpy fanservicey stuff in comic books: We have internet for that now. we can find far more hardcore stuff by going to the right site and focusing on things that are nothing but that, we don't need this fan-service thats just weak by comparison because all it is, is distracting.

It wouldnt even be that hard to fix. Just alter the posing of the characters. Yes most super costumes are literally naked people with spray painted skin, but you dont see superman in a lot of sexy poses, or spiderman. By no longer drawing the female characters so their physics defying attributes are being prominently displayed, a lot of the problem with sexualization in comics would be solved. And yes, getting rid of those meaningless eyecandy shower type scenes is also important, but yeah, I think the posing in general is the easiest issue to fix. Its not like they have to redesign costumes for everyone or whatever.

As for fanservice in anime, I agree with the above poster. Its fine when its an acknowledged part of the series. Its generally fairly obvious when you pick up a manga or anime if its going to have so much fan service a breeze should emanate from your screen, but as a made up example, lets take naruto. There is a big deadly fight taking place, when suddenly a big attack goes off! Next panel, there is hinata wearing nothing but torn bra and panties in a classic "KYAAAAH!" reaction pose as her clothes got blasted off. (Admit it, you all know exactly what im talking about when I say that) Naruto is NOT a fanservice manga/anime. Having that appear out of nowhere would be jarring as heck.

On the other hand, high school of the dead is ultra fanservice, starts out that way, and never, ever stops. When a girl is being dragged down and torn apart by zombies it will be done in such a way that you get to see her panties while she screams in horror and agony. You start to wonder if any female characters even HAVE heads as the camera never rises above the chest or below the ass. You will eventually start to wonder if japanese biology is different from other nations as the women there all have breasts made out of springs and extremely large water balloons going by the bouncing and ripples with every movement. Also, the ground has a permanent breeze rising up to the air. Like the entire chain of islands are built on a steam vent marilyn monroe style. But thats ok because from the very first opening credits its obvious what the series is about. And while fanservice horror is an odd mix of genres, it isnt sprung on you halfway through the series.

Lord Raziere

2017-03-01, 10:23 PM

In other words "don't do it, or own it so that its consistent and high quality." no half-way measures?

Traab

2017-03-01, 10:33 PM

In other words "don't do it, or own it so that its consistent and high quality." no half-way measures?

Do or do not, there is no "lets try it this once." :smallbiggrin: But yeah, basically, consistency is the key. Be a fanservice anime, or dont. Honestly, that applies to any genre shift really. If im watching some sort of grimdark anime with death torment and horrid destruction, dont randomly throw in a whacky scooby doo chase scene out of nowhere. If im watching a silly jokey anime, dont make a main character explode in a shower of blood and body parts out of nowhere.

Rynjin

2017-03-01, 10:42 PM

If im watching a silly jokey anime, dont make a main character explode in a shower of blood and body parts out of nowhere.

What do you have against One Punch Man?

The Key

2017-03-01, 11:13 PM

Dragonexx

2017-03-01, 11:22 PM

I partially agree, partially disagree. I believe that fanservice CAN enhance a series that wasn't built on it from the start, but it's usually handled rather poorly (nor do I agree that it only belongs in internet porn, I actually looked up the justification in strip clubs). Anyways, the reason it's looked badly upon is that it's as said jarring and often comes out of nowhere, (I like fanservice, but even I've snarked at some scenes where it doesn't belong or is done poorly or has wasted potential, like Starfire in red hood). I like when a work varies in tone well, and adding fanservice in light hearted scenes does help with that if the tone changes are fluid and not jarring. (Though not especally fanservicey, Avatar is a series that I think varies it's tone well).

I suppose what I'm saying is that if I see boob plate in something like Thor or Conan, it fits fine with the style. If I saw boob plate in game of thrones i'd think it was stupid.

Also, this applies more to the thread in general, but the beyond slim profit margins, the format in which they are produced leads to some of the problems many of the people are having with anime and manga.

https://s26.postimg.org/rzbi2px95/j_Fhn_Tgg.jpg

Many manga are published weekly, and if you miss a deadline, it could mean the cancellation of your series. Good writing takes time, and making things up as you go along or dragging things out for long stretches of time or adding meaningless filler is an optimal way to meet deadlines. Heck, Sayian hair changing color when they went Super was originally just added in as a way to avoid having to fill in Goku's hair, and thus could save time.

In summary, a combination of small profit margins, and very short deadlines means that mangaka often have to cut corners whenever possible.

Rynjin

2017-03-02, 01:09 AM

I don't watch a lot of anime, but the thing that annoys me most is that it's often hard to see the difference--morally--between the good guys and the bad guys--there seldom seems to be any attempt to establish that the "hero" is worth rooting for. I mean, take a minute and have them rescue a kitten or something!

Examples? While it's a rare anime protagonist that fits neatly into the Silver Age comic book definition of "hero" it's usually pretty well established that the bad guy is the guy eating people/torturing dudes/trying to take over the world while the good guys want to stop them from doing bad things.

Maybe you got turned onto anime in the early 2000's when villain protagonists were all the rage (Lelouch, Light Yagami, etc.)?

Many manga are published weekly, and if you miss a deadline, it could mean the cancellation of your series. Good writing takes time, and making things up as you go along or dragging things out for long stretches of time or adding meaningless filler is an optimal way to meet deadlines. Heck, Sayian hair changing color when they went Super was originally just added in as a way to avoid having to fill in Goku's hair, and thus could save time.

In summary, a combination of small profit margins, and very short deadlines means that mangaka often have to cut corners whenever possible.

Yeah, people don't seem to realize this when they talk about design changes. For a recent example, a lot of the major character design shifts ("no goggles, we headbands now" being the first and "Put everybody in the same generic jumpsuit/armor with the same headband for the war arc along with all the streamlining of character designs after the time skip) in Naruto were born of this.

Things have, seemingly, only gotten worse in recent years.

I kind of wish Weekly Jump would either print manga in the same fashion TV shows run (they print weekly, but have long hiatuses so the writer can get ahead of the production) or only ran an individual manga bi-weekly (mangas A-J one week, K-Z the next, back to A-J the next week, and so on) because hearing about the alarming number of mangaka needing to take breaks for:

1.) Surgery on their hand and wrist.

2.) Horrendous back pain.

3.) Dehydration, malnutrition, and sleep deprivation

As the MOST COMMON reasons a manga goes on break is depressing.

junlogji

2017-03-02, 01:37 AM

Title says it all folks, what tropes are you most sick of in Anime?

impractical fetish "armor"
impractical "weapons"
impractical fighting
improper "cool" sounding japanese
katana can cut through anything bs

also it annoys me when people that are clearly normal humans have unnatural hair and/or eye colors and it is not explained

Lethologica

2017-03-02, 01:57 AM

also it annoys me when people that are clearly normal humans have unnatural hair and/or eye colors and it is not explained
Worthwhile reading. (https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Japanese-have-blue-eyes-and-blond-hair-in-anime/answer/Martin-Schneider-2?srid=isCn&share=1)

junlogji

2017-03-02, 02:09 AM

Worthwhile reading. (https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Japanese-have-blue-eyes-and-blond-hair-in-anime/answer/Martin-Schneider-2?srid=isCn&share=1)

i know i just do not find it adequate

i think character personalities are better conveyed though actual personality like in real life than cheap visual cues that break immersion for me at least

Rynjin

2017-03-02, 02:21 AM

i know i just do not find it adequate

i think character personalities are better conveyed though actual personality like in real life than cheap visual cues that break immersion for me at least

They're not mutually exclusive. It's a quick shorthand...just like superhero costumes.

Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne look surprisingly similar. You would not mistake them in their costumes, however, which conveniently represent the dichotomy between them (Superman: Bright colors, positive outlook. Batman: Dark colors, brooding personality. As the most obvious ones.). These are exactly the same "cheap visual cues", just represented in a different fashion.

Anime just uses hair and eye colors instead of costumes (for the most part). Neither version REPLACES characterization (in good works, anyway) but they give you a quick hint as all character design choices do, particularly fashion.

"It's a quirk of the setting (and medium)" should really be all you need for immersion purposes. "People here have weird hair".

The immersion breaking part is when somebody in-setting points out that the other person's hair is weird...and then it's STILL not explained.

junlogji

2017-03-02, 02:27 AM

They're not mutually exclusive. It's a quick shorthand...just like superhero costumes.

Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne look surprisingly similar. You would not mistake them in their costumes, however, which conveniently represent the dichotomy between them (Superman: Bright colors, positive outlook. Batman: Dark colors, brooding personality. As the most obvious ones.). These are exactly the same "cheap visual cues", just represented in a different fashion.

Anime just uses hair and eye colors instead of costumes (for the most part). Neither version REPLACES characterization (in good works, anyway) but they give you a quick hint as all character design choices do, particularly fashion.

"It's a quirk of the setting (and medium)" should really be all you need for immersion purposes. "People here have weird hair".

The immersion breaking part is when somebody in-setting points out that the other person's hair is weird...and then it's STILL not explained.

<1> you are kind of assuming i agree with costume designs
<2> what you choose to wear makes more sense to me with regard to personality than the color of hair and eyes you where born with

John Cribati

2017-03-02, 03:08 AM

In other words "don't do it, or own it so that its consistent and high quality." no half-way measures?

I already mentioned Highschool DxD, right? Because that anime owns it so hard it's probably about to sue for exclusive rights to distribute it.

Rynjin

2017-03-02, 04:00 AM

<1> you are kind of assuming i agree with costume designs

You don't have to agree, it's just how art works. That's why anime/manga and comics are a visual medium. They get to use these shorthands. It's one of the perks of being visual rather than pure text.

Literally everything about a character (created by a competent writer) and their design is a "cheap visual cue" about some aspect of their personality.

All the way down to the very basics of whether they're drawn to be boxy, or curved, or angular.

<2> what you choose to wear makes more sense to me with regard to personality than the color of hair and eyes you where born with

Different cultures, different tropes. You ever wonder why so many manga give the star sign and blood type for their characters? This, too, is a cultural difference on how to express character personalities.

Protagonists tend to have Blood Type B. Meaning they tend to be "passionate, cheerful, optimistic, animal loving, etc." but also "irresponsible, forgetful, lazy, etc.". Naruto and Goku, for example, fit this bill. They're also listed as having a B blood type.

Cultures are weird, yo.

Lord Raziere

2017-03-02, 04:07 AM

Worthwhile reading. (https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Japanese-have-blue-eyes-and-blond-hair-in-anime/answer/Martin-Schneider-2?srid=isCn&share=1)

Oh good! more color-based symbolism to subvert in my own works! Sure doing the ol' "light is not good and dark is not evil" thing is classic and never gets old, but I have to go farther. I have to figure out how to subvert all color-based symbolism on a vast scale to communicate a theme of "appearances are not everything." and this will help.

junlogji

2017-03-02, 11:50 AM

You don't have to agree, it's just how art works. That's why anime/manga and comics are a visual medium. They get to use these shorthands. It's one of the perks of being visual rather than pure text.

Literally everything about a character (created by a competent writer) and their design is a "cheap visual cue" about some aspect of their personality.

All the way down to the very basics of whether they're drawn to be boxy, or curved, or angular.

Different cultures, different tropes. You ever wonder why so many manga give the star sign and blood type for their characters? This, too, is a cultural difference on how to express character personalities.

Protagonists tend to have Blood Type B. Meaning they tend to be "passionate, cheerful, optimistic, animal loving, etc." but also "irresponsible, forgetful, lazy, etc.". Naruto and Goku, for example, fit this bill. They're also listed as having a B blood type.

Cultures are weird, yo.

i criticize everything i find to be nonsensical in a culture including the one i happen to be surrounded by

junlogji

2017-03-02, 11:51 AM

Oh good! more color-based symbolism to subvert in my own works! Sure doing the ol' "light is not good and dark is not evil" thing is classic and never gets old, but I have to go farther. I have to figure out how to subvert all color-based symbolism on a vast scale to communicate a theme of "appearances are not everything." and this will help.

but if you do so on purpose you are using color stereotypes to combat color stereotypes

The Key

2017-03-02, 10:30 PM

Examples? While it's a rare anime protagonist that fits neatly into the Silver Age comic book definition of "hero" it's usually pretty well established that the bad guy is the guy eating people/torturing dudes/trying to take over the world while the good guys want to stop them from doing bad things.

Maybe you got turned onto anime in the early 2000's when villain protagonists were all the rage (Lelouch, Light Yagami, etc.)?

Yeah, people don't seem to realize this when they talk about design changes. For a recent example, a lot of the major character design shifts ("no goggles, we headbands now" being the first and "Put everybody in the same generic jumpsuit/armor with the same headband for the war arc along with all the streamlining of character designs after the time skip) in Naruto were born of this.

Things have, seemingly, only gotten worse in recent years.

I kind of wish Weekly Jump would either print manga in the same fashion TV shows run (they print weekly, but have long hiatuses so the writer can get ahead of the production) or only ran an individual manga bi-weekly (mangas A-J one week, K-Z the next, back to A-J the next week, and so on) because hearing about the alarming number of mangaka needing to take breaks for:

1.) Surgery on their hand and wrist.

2.) Horrendous back pain.

3.) Dehydration, malnutrition, and sleep deprivation

As the MOST COMMON reasons a manga goes on break is depressing.

Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo--the good guys are better than the bad guys, but there seems to be a lot of grey in the heroes. Nothing wrong with some of that, but I generally don't find myself liking the heroes that much, like there's not much that makes them endearing--more rogues than lovable rogues, if you know what I mean.