MWF character help

[Colonel Snazzy]

Hello,

One of my friends is thinking of making a MWF build (Insectile Thri-kreen), but he's not sure how to do that. (no one's ever used a TWF build)
We are playing 3.5 with all rulebooks allowed (BoVD and BoED being the exceptions) and no homebrew. The rest of the party consists of a lvl 6 CG sorcerer, lvl 6 NE spike chain cheeser (Inhuman reach +WD tall), TN Fleshwarper or truenamer, lvl 6 LG warforged Fighter and a lvl 6 LG monk. At the moment he's either going to go ranger or fighter, but if someone know a better build we would be grateful.

P.S. (I just realised while typing this that this party comp would result in 2-3 fighters, [never a good idea] but I don't know if anyone is really willing to switch)

Thanks much:smallsmile:

[Vizzerdrix]

He will want a way to boost damage and to hit, as well as get full attacks. A single level of cloistered cleric with travel devotion and knowledge devotion would provide both. Cloistered cleric is from Unearthed Arcana, and the devotions can be found in complete champion.

Mind you, going full cleric isint great for multiweapon fighting builds, but a level dip in cleric is great for many things.

[Darrin]

One of my friends is thinking of making a MWF build (Insectile Thri-kreen), but he's not sure how to do that. (no one's ever used a TWF build)


Shameless plug: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).



We are playing 3.5 with all rulebooks allowed (BoVD and BoED being the exceptions) and no homebrew. The rest of the party consists of a lvl 6 CG sorcerer, lvl 6 NE spike chain cheeser (Inhuman reach +WD tall), TN Fleshwarper or truenamer, lvl 6 LG warforged Fighter and a lvl 6 LG monk. At the moment he's either going to go ranger or fighter, but if someone know a better build we would be grateful.


Ok, sounds like the party is all around level 6. This may make things... problematic for an Insectile Thri-Kreen. I'm assuming a non-psionic Thri-Kreen, since the Level Adjustment is only +1. But there are still two racial HD there, and the LA +2 from Insectile means this thri-kreen has an Effective Character Level (ECL) of 5 before he takes any class levels. ECL = Racial HD + Class Levels + Level Adjustment.

As far as class levels go... well, he'd have to decide on a method for adding bonus damage to his attacks. Dragonfire Inspiration on a Bardblade (Bard 4/Warblade X) or Bardsader (Bard 4/Crusader X) is the most reliable and has the best damage output for the rest of the party, but the ECL 5 eats up a large chunk of the early build, so at best this thri-kreen would start out as Bard 1 or Warblade 1 and wouldn't be much of a Bardblade or do much Dragonfire Inspiration until many levels later.

Swift Hunter is the next best bonus damage method, but getting all the feats in place would take awhile:

1) [ECL4] Thri-Kreen HD1. Feat: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion).
2) [ECL5] Thri-Kreen HD2.
3) [ECL6] Scout 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Skirmish 1d6.
4) [ECL7] Ranger 1. Bonus: Track. Favored Enemy: Undead.
5) [ECL8] Ranger 2. Bonus: MWF.
6) [ECL9] Scout 2. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3).
7) [ECL10] Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
8) [ECL11] Scout 4. Bonus: Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel). Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
9) [ECL12] Ranger 3. Feat: Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel). Skirmish 2d6AC+2/4d6AC+4.
10) [ECL13] Ranger 4. Bonus: Combat Expertise (Champion of the Wild ACF).
11) [ECL14] Ranger 5. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4. Favored Enemy: Constructs.
12) [ECL15] Ranger 6. Feat: Weapon Focus. Bonus: Improved MWF.
13) [ECL16] Ranger 7. Skirmish 3d6AC+3/5d6AC+5.
14) [ECL17] Ranger 8. Bonus: Greater MWF (Champion of the Wild ACF).
15) [ECL18] Ranger 9. Feat: Sense Weakness (Draconomicon). Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
16) [ECL19] Highland Stalker 1.
17) [ECL20] Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 5d6AC+3/7d6AC+5.

Hrrrm. I'm tempted to switch out Ranger 7-9 with maybe Barbarian 1 and a Fighter 1-2 dip. Dragon Devotee 2 could also go in there.

The third method I would recommend would be Oversized TWF + Power Attack + Shock Trooper. Basically, it's the standard Ubercharger strategy but with MWF. You don't get the same damage multipliers as the Two-Handers, but an insectile thri-keen makes up for that by making a metric buttload of offhand attacks. Up until recently, I thought the only way to get a decent Str modifier on damage was the "Uncanny Blow" exotic weapon trick from Exotic Weapon Master. However, Power Lunge (Sword & Fist or Ghostwalk) can be used to set the Str bonus on damage to x2.0 on a charge regardless of the number of hands it takes to wield your weapons. The PA/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper method has some downsides: it tanks your AC making you incredibly easy to hit, you can get horked up by bad terrain, and some DMs panic when they see you dish out 300+ damage in a single round. The main advantage is it's somewhat easier to get working quickly:

1) [ECL4] Thri-Kreen HD1. Feat: Power Attack.
2) [ECL5] Thri-Kreen HD2.
3) [ECL6] Ranger 1. Feat: Improved Bull Rush. Favored Enemy: Arcanists.
4) [ECL7] Ranger 2. Bonus: MWF.
5) [ECL8] Barbarian 1. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce. Whirling Frenzy ACF.
6) [ECL9] Fighter 1. Feat: Leap Attack. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
7) [ECL10] Fighter 2. Bonus: Oversized TWF (Complete Adventurer).
8) [ECL11] Fighter 3.
9) [ECL12] Fighter 4. Feat: Improved MWF. Bonus: Power Lunge (Ghostwalk).
10) [ECL13] Fighter 5.
11) [ECL14] Fighter 6. Bonus: Weapon Focus.
12) [ECL15] Fighter 7. Feat: Weapon Specialization.
13) [ECL16] Fighter 8. Bonus: Melee Weapon Mastery (PHBII).
14) [ECL17] Fighter 9.
15) [ECL18] Fighter 10. Feat: Greater MWF. Bonus: Greater Weapon Focus.
16) [ECL19] Fighter 11.
17) [ECL20] Fighter 12. Bonus: Greater Weapon Specialization.

Some other thoughts:

Although Improved MWF and Greater MWF were technically updated to 3.5 in the Divine section of the SRD, the BAB and Dex requirements were *NOT* updated. So the BAB/Dex doesn't match Improved/Greater TWF. So you'll want to ask the DM which requirements to go by... to either treat the MWF feats as directly interchangeable with the TWF feats, or to require higher BAB/Dex for MWF.

I'm also tempted to recommend Diopsid (Dragon Compendium) over Thri-Kreen. You still get the same number of arms, but don't have the 2 Racial HD, so you've got an extra two class levels to play with. More importantly, an Insectile Diopsid is only LA +3, so your starting ECL is only 3 and you get 3 class levels to start with rather than 1. So a Swift Hunter Insectile Diopsid might look like:

1) [ECL4] Scout 1. Feat: Travel Devotion. Skirmish 1d6.
2) [ECL5] Ranger 1. Bonus: Track. FE Undead.
3) [ECL6] Ranger 2. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Bonus: MWF.
4) [ECL7] Scout 2.
5) [ECL8] Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
6) [ECL9] Scout 4. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 2d6AC+1/4d6AC+3.
7) [ECL10] Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+2/4d6AC+4.
8) [ECL11] Ranger 4. Bonus: Combat Expertise (Champion of the Wild ACF).
9) [ECL12] Ranger 5. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3). Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4. FE Constructs.
10) [ECL13] Ranger 6. Bonus: Improved MWF.
11) [ECL14] Fighter 1. Bonus: Weapon Focus.
12) [ECL15] Fighter 2. Feat: Sense Weakness (Draconomicon). Bonus: Combat Reflexes.
13) [ECL16] Highland Stalker 1.
14) [ECL17] Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
15) [ECL18] Ranger 7. Feat: Double Hit (Miniatures HB). Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
16) [ECL19] Ranger 8. Bonus: Greater MWF.
17) [ECL20] Ranger 9. Skirmish 5d6AC+3/7d6AC+5.

And for the Ubercharger... well, how about we throw in some Three Mountains Style for the save vs. nausea. With eight morningstars, two of those ought to hit.

1) [ECL4] Ranger 1. Feat: Power Attack. Bonus: Track. FE Arcanists.
2) [ECL5] Ranger 2. Bonus: MWF.
3) [ECL6] Fighter 1. Feat: Improved Bull Rush. Bonus: Oversized TWF.
4) [ECL7] Barbarian 1. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce. Whirling Frenzy ACF.
5) [ECL8] Barbarian 2. Wolf Totem -> Improved Trip.
6) [ECL9] Fighter 2. Feat: Leap Attack. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
7) [ECL10] Cloistered Cleric 1. Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Strength Devotion.
8) [ECL11] Fighter 3.
9) [ECL12] Fighter 4. Feat: Cleave. Bonus: Weapon Focus.
10) [ECL13] Fighter 5.
11) [ECL14] Fighter 6. Bonus: Improved MWF.
12) [ECL15] Fighter 7. Feat: Three Mountains Style (Complete Warrior).
13) [ECL16] Fighter 8. Bonus: Weapon Specialization.
14) [ECL17] Fighter 9.
15) [ECL18] Fighter 10. Feat: Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown). Bonus: Melee Weapon Mastery.
16) [ECL19] Fighter 11.
17) [ECL20] Fighter 12. Bonus: Greater MWF.

It might be possible to another morningstar into the build... go Dragonborn of Bahamut, trade Track for Dragon Tail, then maybe swap Knock-Down for Prehensile Tail. Three Mountains, Nine Morningstars. -4 Dex penalty with all those TWF/MWF feats would be pretty darned hard to pull off, though.



P.S. (I just realised while typing this that this party comp would result in 2-3 fighters, [never a good idea] but I don't know if anyone is really willing to switch)


So long as the DM can adjust to the party's limitations, an all-fighter (or mostly-meatbag) party shouldn't be an issue. If the party has access to wands of CLW/vigor, then not having a healbot shouldn't be too much of a problem. A Ranger that doesn't take Champion of the Wild can use wands of CLW. A cloistered cleric dip with the Magic domain (dragon deity = Io, for example) could use any wand from the Cleric and Sor/Wiz spell lists.

[Colonel Snazzy]

Shameless plug:



Ok, sounds like the party is all around level 6. This may make things... problematic for an Insectile Thri-Kreen. I'm assuming a non-psionic Thri-Kreen, since the Level Adjustment is only +1. But there are still two racial HD there, and the LA +2 from Insectile means this thri-kreen has an Effective Character Level (ECL) of 5 before he takes any class levels. ECL = Racial HD + Class Levels + Level Adjustment.

As far as class levels go... well, he'd have to decide on a method for adding bonus damage to his attacks. Dragonfire Inspiration on a Bardblade (Bard 4/Warblade X) or Bardsader (Bard 4/Crusader X) is the most reliable and has the best damage output for the rest of the party, but the ECL 5 eats up a large chunk of the early build, so at best this thri-kreen would start out as Bard 1 or Warblade 1 and wouldn't be much of a Bardblade or do much Dragonfire Inspiration until many levels later.

Swift Hunter is the next best bonus damage method, but getting all the feats in place would take awhile:

1) [ECL4] Thri-Kreen HD1. Feat: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion).
2) [ECL5] Thri-Kreen HD2.
3) [ECL6] Scout 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Skirmish 1d6.
4) [ECL7] Ranger 1. Bonus: Track. Favored Enemy: Undead.
5) [ECL8] Ranger 2. Bonus: MWF.
6) [ECL9] Scout 2. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3).
7) [ECL10] Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
8) [ECL11] Scout 4. Bonus: Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel). Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
9) [ECL12] Ranger 3. Feat: Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel). Skirmish 2d6AC+2/4d6AC+4.
10) [ECL13] Ranger 4. Bonus: Combat Expertise (Champion of the Wild ACF).
11) [ECL14] Ranger 5. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4. Favored Enemy: Constructs.
12) [ECL15] Ranger 6. Feat: Weapon Focus. Bonus: Improved MWF.
13) [ECL16] Ranger 7. Skirmish 3d6AC+3/5d6AC+5.
14) [ECL17] Ranger 8. Bonus: Greater MWF (Champion of the Wild ACF).
15) [ECL18] Ranger 9. Feat: Sense Weakness (Draconomicon). Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
16) [ECL19] Highland Stalker 1.
17) [ECL20] Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 5d6AC+3/7d6AC+5.

Hrrrm. I'm tempted to switch out Ranger 7-9 with maybe Barbarian 1 and a Fighter 1-2 dip. Dragon Devotee 2 could also go in there.

The third method I would recommend would be Oversized TWF + Power Attack + Shock Trooper. Basically, it's the standard Ubercharger strategy but with MWF. You don't get the same damage multipliers as the Two-Handers, but an insectile thri-keen makes up for that by making a metric buttload of offhand attacks. Up until recently, I thought the only way to get a decent Str modifier on damage was the "Uncanny Blow" exotic weapon trick from Exotic Weapon Master. However, Power Lunge (Sword & Fist or Ghostwalk) can be used to set the Str bonus on damage to x2.0 on a charge regardless of the number of hands it takes to wield your weapons. The PA/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper method has some downsides: it tanks your AC making you incredibly easy to hit, you can get horked up by bad terrain, and some DMs panic when they see you dish out 300+ damage in a single round. The main advantage is it's somewhat easier to get working quickly:

1) [ECL4] Thri-Kreen HD1. Feat: Power Attack.
2) [ECL5] Thri-Kreen HD2.
3) [ECL6] Ranger 1. Feat: Improved Bull Rush. Favored Enemy: Arcanists.
4) [ECL7] Ranger 2. Bonus: MWF.
5) [ECL8] Barbarian 1. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce. Whirling Frenzy ACF.
6) [ECL9] Fighter 1. Feat: Leap Attack. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
7) [ECL10] Fighter 2. Bonus: Oversized TWF (Complete Adventurer).
8) [ECL11] Fighter 3.
9) [ECL12] Fighter 4. Feat: Improved MWF. Bonus: Power Lunge (Ghostwalk).
10) [ECL13] Fighter 5.
11) [ECL14] Fighter 6. Bonus: Weapon Focus.
12) [ECL15] Fighter 7. Feat: Weapon Specialization.
13) [ECL16] Fighter 8. Bonus: Melee Weapon Mastery (PHBII).
14) [ECL17] Fighter 9.
15) [ECL18] Fighter 10. Feat: Greater MWF. Bonus: Greater Weapon Focus.
16) [ECL19] Fighter 11.
17) [ECL20] Fighter 12. Bonus: Greater Weapon Specialization.

Some other thoughts:

Although Improved MWF and Greater MWF were technically updated to 3.5 in the Divine section of the SRD, the BAB and Dex requirements were *NOT* updated. So the BAB/Dex doesn't match Improved/Greater TWF. So you'll want to ask the DM which requirements to go by... to either treat the MWF feats as directly interchangeable with the TWF feats, or to require higher BAB/Dex for MWF.

I'm also tempted to recommend Diopsid (Dragon Compendium) over Thri-Kreen. You still get the same number of arms, but don't have the 2 Racial HD, so you've got an extra two class levels to play with. More importantly, an Insectile Diopsid is only LA +3, so your starting ECL is only 3 and you get 3 class levels to start with rather than 1. So a Swift Hunter Insectile Diopsid might look like:

1) [ECL4] Scout 1. Feat: Travel Devotion. Skirmish 1d6.
2) [ECL5] Ranger 1. Bonus: Track. FE Undead.
3) [ECL6] Ranger 2. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Bonus: MWF.
4) [ECL7] Scout 2.
5) [ECL8] Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
6) [ECL9] Scout 4. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 2d6AC+1/4d6AC+3.
7) [ECL10] Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+2/4d6AC+4.
8) [ECL11] Ranger 4. Bonus: Combat Expertise (Champion of the Wild ACF).
9) [ECL12] Ranger 5. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3). Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4. FE Constructs.
10) [ECL13] Ranger 6. Bonus: Improved MWF.
11) [ECL14] Fighter 1. Bonus: Weapon Focus.
12) [ECL15] Fighter 2. Feat: Sense Weakness (Draconomicon). Bonus: Combat Reflexes.
13) [ECL16] Highland Stalker 1.
14) [ECL17] Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
15) [ECL18] Ranger 7. Feat: Double Hit (Miniatures HB). Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
16) [ECL19] Ranger 8. Bonus: Greater MWF.
17) [ECL20] Ranger 9. Skirmish 5d6AC+3/7d6AC+5.

And for the Ubercharger... well, how about we throw in some Three Mountains Style for the save vs. nausea. With eight morningstars, two of those ought to hit.

1) [ECL4] Ranger 1. Feat: Power Attack. Bonus: Track. FE Arcanists.
2) [ECL5] Ranger 2. Bonus: MWF.
3) [ECL6] Fighter 1. Feat: Improved Bull Rush. Bonus: Oversized TWF.
4) [ECL7] Barbarian 1. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce. Whirling Frenzy ACF.
5) [ECL8] Barbarian 2. Wolf Totem -> Improved Trip.
6) [ECL9] Fighter 2. Feat: Leap Attack. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
7) [ECL10] Cloistered Cleric 1. Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Strength Devotion.
8) [ECL11] Fighter 3.
9) [ECL12] Fighter 4. Feat: Cleave. Bonus: Weapon Focus.
10) [ECL13] Fighter 5.
11) [ECL14] Fighter 6. Bonus: Improved MWF.
12) [ECL15] Fighter 7. Feat: Three Mountains Style (Complete Warrior).
13) [ECL16] Fighter 8. Bonus: Weapon Specialization.
14) [ECL17] Fighter 9.
15) [ECL18] Fighter 10. Feat: . Bonus: Melee Weapon Mastery.
16) [ECL19] Fighter 11.
17) [ECL20] Fighter 12. Bonus: Greater MWF.

It might be possible to another morningstar into the build... go Dragonborn of Bahamut, trade Track for Dragon Tail, then maybe swap Knock-Down for Prehensile Tail. Three Mountains, Nine Morningstars. -4 Dex penalty with all those TWF/MWF feats would be pretty darned hard to pull off, though.



So long as the DM can adjust to the party's limitations, an all-fighter (or mostly-meatbag) party shouldn't be an issue. If the party has access to wands of CLW/vigor, then not having a healbot shouldn't be too much of a problem. A Ranger that doesn't take Champion of the Wild can use wands of CLW. A cloistered cleric dip with the Magic domain (dragon deity = Io, for example) could use any wand from the Cleric and Sor/Wiz spell lists.

Thanks a ton, this is way more than help than I had hoped for. I'll take a look at Diopsid.:smallcool: