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View Full Version : Need help assigning CR to an evil party of adventurers



Amphimir Míriel
2007-07-22, 11:28 AM
Hello everyone,

Inspired by a story in the first Geralt of Rivia book by Andrzej Sapkowski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrzej_Sapkowski) I decided to pit my gaming group against an evil version of a classic fairy tale character:

Raven Black
"In front of you stands a beautiful human female; skin white as snow, lips red as blood, hair black as ebony. She wears a dress with blue bodice, golden skirts and puffy half-sleeves. However something about her, you cant exactly point what, tells you something is not 'right' with her... It tells you this is not the 'average' maid..."

Half-Fiend Human Rogue 4 / Fighter 2
STR 12, DEX 19, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 13, CHA 16
33 HP
Init +4
AC: 19 (Mithril Breastplate enameled to a deep blue color and disguised as part of a corset)
Attack (melee): +10 Keen Rapier +1, or +10 Masterwork Dagger
Attack (ranged): +10 Masterwork Light Crossbow, or +10 Masterwork Dagger

Skills (only listing those with ranks): Balance +12, Bluff +12, Diplomacy +12, Disguise +5, Escape Artist +5, Gather Info +9, Hide +7, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (local) +5, Move Silently +12, Ride +6, Search +12, Sense Motive +10, Sleight of Hand +4, Spot +10, Swim +3, Tumble +12, Use Magic Device +8

Feats: Blind Fight, Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Spring Attack.

Human Traits:
1 Extra Feat at 1st level
4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point per level

Half-Fiend Traits (modified)
Changes: No wings, and therefore no fly speed (traded for better SR), No demonic appearance (at least at first sight)

Darkvision 60ft
Poison Immunity
Resistance to Acid 10, Cold 10, Electricity 10, Fire 10
Damage Reduction 5/magic
Spell Resistance 20
Smite Good: +6 damage to one attack per day

Spell like abilities
Darkness 3/Day
Desecrate 1/Day
Unholy Blight 1/Day

And the gang she leads/intimidates into doing what she wants, is a group of dwarves that decided to become bandits and rob travellers crossing the forest road instead of poisoning their lungs in a mine...

The Brothers Grimm:
Male Dwarf Fighter 4 (with Dwarven Waraxe and Shield)
Male Dwarf Barbarian 4 (with Greataxe)
Male Dwarf Rogue 4 (Crossbow)
Male Dwarf Fighter 4 (Greatsword)
Male Dwarf Fighter 4 (Composite Longbow)
Male Dwarf Cleric 4 (of Olidamarra or something like that)
Male Dwarf Wizard 4

-

Now, what CR would you guys assign to this group?

Mike_Lemmer
2007-07-22, 11:58 AM
Off the bat? I'd give it a 11.

7 CR 4s = CR 10

CR 10 + CR 8 = CR 11

The CR 4 dwarves could either be so much cannon fodder or so numerous they're dangerous.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-07-22, 12:38 PM
Off the bat? I'd give it a 11.

7 CR 4s = CR 10

CR 10 + CR 8 = CR 11

The CR 4 dwarves could either be so much cannon fodder or so numerous they're dangerous.

Yeah, strictly numericly its a CR11, but I am thinking that if she and the dwarves fight with sound strategy (meleers checking the party's muscle; archers, rogues and wizard splitting up and going for the spellcasters from different directions), things could go badly for a standard 4 PC party.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-07-22, 12:50 PM
Honestly? With 4 PCs, any sound strategy could screw them. Given a 50% chance of anyone making a save, there's a 1-in-16 chance any Save-or-Lose AoO incapacitates the whole party in one round. You cast 2 Save-or-Loses on them in a surprise round, and you might not even get hit capturing/killing them.

Then again, level 11 PCs should be able to make quick work of the 4 HD fodder. I'd leave it at CR 11. A surprise attack is the only advantage the dwarves would have; after that, the party's meleers can 1- or 2-shot them. Hell, the wizard could fry 3-4 of them with one spell.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-07-22, 01:02 PM
In cases like these, CR depends on the PC's party. Generally, I think the suggestion is that anything 4+ CRs lower than the party's level is negligible and should not be factored in to the overall CR (or experience). What level is the group, and who's in it?

Amphimir Míriel
2007-07-22, 01:16 PM
In cases like these, CR depends on the PC's party. Generally, I think the suggestion is that anything 4+ CRs lower than the party's level is negligible and should not be factored in to the overall CR (or experience). What level is the group, and who's in it?

This is the group Im planning to pit this against:

Olga, Half Orc Fighter
Tara, Human Druid
Syfa, Tiefling Sorcerer-Rogue
Lereophon, Half-Orc Cleric-Fighter

Im not sure if Thom, Halfling Ranger will still be with them at that point.

I am planning to use this adventure (I -have everything else planned, including the Queen), when they reach 8-10th level

Dairun Cates
2007-07-22, 01:26 PM
With the possibility of sound tactics, you might want to kick it up to a CR 12 if they're only 8-10, but that's probably a bit nice. Also, if they're only going to have 3 party members later, you might consider letting them hire a rogue. 3 party adventuring teams are fun, but constantly in danger of TPK.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-07-22, 01:58 PM
With the possibility of sound tactics, you might want to kick it up to a CR 12 if they're only 8-10, but that's probably a bit nice. Also, if they're only going to have 3 party members later, you might consider letting them hire a rogue. 3 party adventuring teams are fun, but constantly in danger of TPK.

I think you misread me, they are a team of 5 right now, but they could possibly become a team of 4.

Still maybe leaving it at CR11 would be ok for the final encounter of an adventure designed for a party of levels 8-9

And if it's a hit, maybe I could do Sleeping Beauty next...

Merlin the Tuna
2007-07-22, 02:10 PM
If the party is at least level 8 by the time they reach this, I'd call the level 4 mooks pointless cannonfodder and ignore them for CR purposes. Your warriors will make mincemeat of them and will likely be nigh-unhittable in return. The enemies are going to be busting out 2nd level spells - not exactly impressive at this point, and their save DCs should be pretty piddly. 14, maybe 15? They're very nearly non-factors. I'd peg this at CR 8, maybe 9. Barring a streak of bad luck on the dice, I expect most 8th level parties to cruise on by without more than a hiccup.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-07-22, 02:15 PM
If the party is at least level 8 by the time they reach this, I'd call the level 4 mooks pointless cannonfodder and ignore them for CR purposes. Your warriors will make mincemeat of them and will likely be nigh-unhittable in return. The enemies are going to be busting out 2nd level spells - not exactly impressive at this point, and their save DCs should be pretty piddly. 14, maybe 15? They're very nearly non-factors. I'd peg this at CR 8, maybe 9. Barring a streak of bad luck on the dice, I expect most 8th level parties to cruise on by without more than a hiccup.

Then you suggest I beef up the Dwarves?

The scene is to be set like this: the Dwarves ambush the PCs and when 3 or 4 dwarves fall, Raven appears, shoots a poisoned quarrel or two, gets her BBEG introduction and then the final fight continues...

Recursive
2007-07-22, 03:38 PM
Then you suggest I beef up the Dwarves?

The scene is to be set like this: the Dwarves ambush the PCs and when 3 or 4 dwarves fall, Raven appears, shoots a poisoned quarrel or two, gets her BBEG introduction and then the final fight continues...

While a lot depends on the circumstances of the encounter (obligatory nod to Tucker's Kobolds!) this bunch don't seem like much more than a speedbump for a level-8 party. When the BBEG herself is two levels lower than the average party member, and her minions lower still, she had better have some fiendishly clever tactics in mind. A run-of-the-mill ambush and a couple of poisoned quarrels won't be enough...

They seem like a fun bunch of antagonists, so I would suggest toughening them up until they can be a real thorn in the PCs' sides. Perhaps make Raven herself a level or two higher than the PCs and the dwarves a level or two lower. For a closer parody of the source material, you might give Raven druid levels instead of fighter -- after all, Snow White was always surrounded by chirping birds and happy squirrels and whatnot. Give Ms. Black her own menagerie of cute, cheerful, and vicious little forest beasts.

Against a tougher Raven and co., who make good use of the tactical advantages of their home woods, the PCs are likely to lose the initial skirmish -- in which perhaps the bandits steal something vital, motivating the PCs to return for a rematch -- and keep losing as long as they let Raven choose the times and places of their fights. They'll have to seize the initiative and think hard about how to turn the tables.

Having said all that, I would not worry about the bad guys' stats just yet. Think in advance about how you want the adventure to flow, and how it will weave with other events in your campaign, but wait to stat up the antagonists until it's closer to time to actually use them. By then you'll know just what the PCs are capable of, and you can tailor the villains to be a tough but not unbeatable challenge.

Drider
2007-07-22, 03:43 PM
Attack (melee): +10 Keen Rapier +1, or +10 Masterwork Dagger
Attack (ranged): +10 Masterwork Light Crossbow, or +10 Masterwork Dagger


...i'd heighten it a little bit, maybe cr 12-14 if her weapons are +10

lord_khaine
2007-07-22, 03:48 PM
but if she only got a +1 bonus to hit, even with her +10 weapons she is clearly not a threat in melee combat.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-07-22, 03:59 PM
oops, maybe I wasnt clear, these arent +10 weapons, she has +10 to hit with them (+5 BAB, +4 Dex bonus, +1 masterwork or magic)

But hey, thanks Recursive and everyone for the tips, I will hold statting these bunch until the characters finish their current adventure...