3.5 Gestalt w/ ECL

[Tindragon]

Reading the SRD for 3.5 about Gestalt, the Q, that isn't covered, if someone wants to make (and is allowed) a +ECL character, does it come off both or just one class?

So, an Aasimar, +1 ECL Paladin/Wizard would he be at level 2, a 1 pally (+ ecl)/2 wizard or 1/1 at 2nd level?

[OldTrees1]

Well, RAW is not answered so here is the high level intent:

Level Adjustment is meant as a way of determining how many effective levels stronger (in a PC sense as opposed to a Encounter sense) you are. It being in a PC sense means it takes into account that you exists before and after encounters which means that you have access to more time and encounter non combat challenges/obstacles.

How do racial Hit Dice interact with this? Racial Hit dice are divorced from the racial features of the race. A race's LA is meant to reflect how the X RHD + Y racial features compares to X class levels (HD and class features).

How would Gestalt interact with this? Gestalt changes the equation by expecting slightly better HD (HD, BAB, Saves, Skills) and roughly twice the class features. Those previous LA estimates were made comparing to weaker alternatives in a different paradigm. However +1LA meant there were features that were worth as much as both 1 level's worth of HD and 1 level's worth of features.

Applying the RHD & LA to both sides would be overestimating the ECL of the character.
Applying the RHD & LA to only 1 side would be underestimating the ECL of the character.


So looking at the high level intent, I think you should:
Put RHD on one side of the gestalt, and then recalculate the LA based on what is added across from the RHD. Of course you might already be in a habit of recalculating LA anyways since the listed LA values are so inconsistent.

[Malimar]

The RAW answer is murky at best.

One could argue from the "monster class" concept introduced in Savage Species that RHD+LA counts as one class, allowing you to gestalt it with a different (non-monster) class.

Whatever the RAW says, it is much more common for DMs to allow RHD+LA to take up one half of the gestalt than both halves (making monster characters much more feasible in gestalt than in regular play).

[Ualaa]

In the past, I've run it both ways...
(We were playing Pathfinder, but it is similar enough to 3.x)

If you go with a template or monster race (like from Savage Species) only consumes one side of a gestalt build, then anyone in the party who does not take this option is going to fall way behind the power curve of those who do.

So if you have six players and three of them go with:
-- a) ECL +2 Template / Fighter 7 || Psychic Warrior 9
-- b) ......Minotaur (6) / Fighter 3 || Barbarian 9
-- c) ......Succubus (8) / Rogue 1 || Sorcerer or Oracle 9

And three more go with:
-- d) .......................... Fighter 9 || Psychic Warrior 9
-- e) ............ Fighter 4 / Rogue 5 || Barbarian 9
-- f) ..........................Sorcerer 9 || Oracle 9

In my experience, the first three will be much more powerful than the latter three.



And if you reverse it so that a Template or Race applies to both sides of the build...

Almost no one ever takes a race.
-- Minotaur (6) / Fighter 3 || Minotaur (6) / Barbarian 3
-- .... Nymph (8) / Druid 1 || Wizard 9

Is massively weak compared to say:
-- .................... Fighter 9 || Barbarian 9
-- ...................... Druid 9 || Wizard 9

However, some people will take low ECL templates (on both sides of the build) such as Half-Dragon once they're high enough to still have a few class levels.
In relation to other melee types, they might have a slight edge or be slightly worse off, depending on the builds in question.

Like these:
-- Half Dragon (2) / Fighter 7 || Half Dragon (2) / Barbarian 7

Vs:
-- ........................ Fighter 9 || Barbarian 9

[Lormador]

Ualaa is right: putting racial HD and LA on one side of the build results in powerful characters.

It's totally fun though, if everyone does it, slapping template after template on one side.

The virtue of the method is that it's a way for less experienced players to participate in Gestalt games, as you can make a really nice melee character with Barbarian on one side and nothing but race/template on the other.

[martixy]

As noted RAW is murky.

However, seeing as how most LA is over-adjusted in the current meta and the primary function of gestalt(to allow play of monstrous characters, many of which carry additional RHD) I'm inclined to allow LA per side. I.e. if you have 2 LA, it's essentially 1LA, both LA levels taking up the two "first level slots" of the character progression.

This is simple, straightforward and intuitive.

There are other considerations though. For example how they are allowed to be placed.
For example do you allow 5 LA to be placed exclusively on one side, therefore granting the player the benefit of HD he'd receive from the other for all 5 levels of LA.
Or do you explicitly require that all LA come before all HD.

What do you do with LA buy-off? Does it work per ECL or per LA level?
Also what if one side has HD and the other LA. You could probably contrive a way, but IMO it's simpler to simply note that mixed levels cannot be bought off.

And if you do allow buy off, how? Do they pay double? Half if there is LA only on one side? If they have a total of 4 LA across 2 gestalt levels, when do you first allow buy-off? As would be for 2LA in the normal game or 4 LA?

Since I have exactly this type of campaign in the works, here is my rules:
1. LA is per-side.
2. LA buyoff is allowed. (I use a wonky system that is essentially the reverse of 3.5s - you can start of early, but additional buyoffs come later and later, instead of starting off later and later, but additional buyoff coming sooner each time.) You start at 3 class levels, can buyoff half(rounded up), and it's free - like in PF. One gestalt level, containing 2 LA levels counts as 1 LA for the purpose of buyoff.
3. The LA can be arranged anyway you want within the starting levels, but you cannot level LA so it must be taken all within your available starting slots.
4. Levels with HD cannot be bought off. This forces the choice - do you benefit from HD in your LA levels, or do you leave yourself open to buy-off later.

Example: For a total of 6LA levels, 3 gestalt levels full of LA, you start of buyoff at ECL 6(class level 3), the next, final buyoff(half, rounded up) is 4 levels after, at ECL9, class level 7.

Finally to lessen the pain of RHD, which are bound to come up, I have the following additional rule:
You can double-prestige for every level of RHD you are forced to take (this does not include RHD that provide additional bonuses, such as with the Rakshasa, whose RHD are effectively levels of sorcerer).

[Jack_Simth]

Reading the SRD for 3.5 about Gestalt, the Q, that isn't covered, if someone wants to make (and is allowed) a +ECL character, does it come off both or just one class?

So, an Aasimar, +1 ECL Paladin/Wizard would he be at level 2, a 1 pally (+ ecl)/2 wizard or 1/1 at 2nd level?

As mentioned by many: Unspecified in RAW, ask your DM.

There's basically four ways to handle it (well, five, but "Not permitted in this game" is not particularly interesting for discussion)
1) LA and RHD replace like class levels. So at 13th, you can play a Nymph RHD 6 / LA +6//Sorcerer-13, no problems.
2) "Folding" the RHD & LA. So at 13th, you could play a Nymph RHD-6/Ninja-7//Nymph LA-7/Druid-6.
3) LA and RHD applies to both 'sides'. So at 13th, you could play a Nymph. At 15th, you could play a Nymph (RHD 6, LA+7) Druid-2//Ninja-2.
4) Some other cost calculation. E.g., LA races reduce your point buy or starting array (Nymph will almost always be impossible to play under these, but a Drow may be on the table).

1) Makes it crazy-good. In this setup, anyone *not* taking a bunch of LA is choosing a significantly weaker option (knowingly or not) in about 99% of cases.
2) Makes it mixed. Picking an adjusted race may or may not be better, depending on the exact build.
3) Makes it very bad. In this setup, LA adjusted races will usually be significantly behind the power curve (not that this is not necessarily the case in Pathfinder, where 3.5's RHD + LA has been reduced to "use the critter's CR" - you'll be hard pressed to find a meaningful way that a Great Wyrm Brass Dragon (CR 19) Barbarian-1//Sorcerer-1 is less effective than a Barbarian-20//Sorcerer-20).