Feat to Improve Daggers

[Zanthy1]

I recently decided I wanted to move a character concept from a different game I play to 5e, and the character uses daggers. So I poked around on the interwebs and found a couple homebrew ideas, and decided to put some of the better aspects and ideas together into the below feat.

Dagger Mastery feat

Double the range for any dagger you throw

When wielding a dagger in both hands, you gain +1 to your AC

When making an attack while wielding a dagger in both hands, you may use your bonus action to attack with both daggers and add your ability modifier to the results. This feature replaces the extra attack feature only when dual wielding daggers.

If you successfully hit with both daggers, the target must succeed on a constitution save (D.C. 10+proficiency bonus) or 1d4 bleeding damage at the start of each of their turns. This effect ends with a D.C. 10 medicine check or they are healed via magic

The above part is up for edit, I was thinking of having it deal then bonus 1d4 damage at the start of the creatures next turn and then allowing them the save (so it always does the extra d4 but could do more if they fail the save.

I also want to figure out a way to improve the single dagger use, maybe something simple such as the bleed effect or being able to add proficiency bonus to damage as well? Any and all thoughts would be welcomed.

The character is essentially a goblin thief who pretends to be a Soothsayer, with a very stabby nature. In the other game she also had what was essentially a shotgun on he arm for close quarters murder, and eventually got the ability to "camo" like in halo. any build suggestions would be welcomed as well.

[djreynolds]

Have you checked out College of Swords, its a UA supplement Kits of Old.

Very cool.

Coupled with rogue and some fighter, could be what you are looking for

[Toadkiller]

Sounds like the easiest option is to play the other system. Homebrewing a big chunk of 5e (or any system) on your first contact with it might not be the way to go.

[xyianth]

Your suggested feat basically combines two weapon fighting style, the dual wielder feat, a doubled range increase, and adds a save vs extra damage. Personally, I'd prefer that it provided only new benefits, so that things that already work well continue to be useful. Also the save vs bleeding effect will add a lot of saving throw rolls to combat, potentially slowing things down at your table.

I like the idea of a dagger master feat, but it shouldn't rely on dual wielding them. How about this:


Dagger Master
You may draw and throw a dagger as an attack action.
When making a ranged attack with a dagger, your range increments are doubled.
When you successfully hit a creature with a melee attack using a dagger, you can twist the blade as a bonus action. Twisting the blade is a special attack. Make an attack roll as normal: if the result exceeds the target's AC treat the attack as a critical hit, otherwise the attack hits and deals normal damage.

This allows you to combine it with things like two weapon fighting style and/or the dual wielder feat without overlap. It gives you extra benefits for using daggers in both melee and at range. And it doesn't force an additional save every hit or add additional bookkeeping in the form of a DoT effect. The twisting the blade attack requires a bonus action, and only occurs after a hit. This makes it a nice reward for the rogue that hits with their attack while dual wielding, since it replaces the bonus action attack from two-weapon fighting with an auto hit with a high chance of being a critical hit. (thereby doubling sneak attack dice) If they miss with their attack, they can still fall back on the bonus action attack from two-weapon fighting for a chance to hit.

Edit: As to the build recommendation for your goblin thief/soothsayer:

Race is kind of given: Goblin. The soothsayer vibe suggests to me a divination wizard dip of at least 2 levels. This can double to give you your 'shotgun' by picking up the magic missile spell. (or any other spell that fits the concept, mm is just an auto-hit that doesn't care what your intelligence score is) The rest of the build can be arcane trickster rogue for sneak attack, thievery, and eventually spells like invisibility.

If the divination wizard isn't what you were looking for, you can alternatively try knowledge cleric instead. You could pick up the guidance cantrip for bonuses to your thievery and pick up your 'shotgun' spell from either your arcane trickster levels or from the cleric spell list.

[Fishyninja]

Dagger Master
You may draw and throw a dagger as an attack action.
When making a ranged attack with a dagger, your range increments are doubled.
When you successfully hit a creature with a melee attack using a dagger, you can twist the blade as a bonus action. Twisting the blade is a special attack. Make an attack roll as normal: if the result exceeds the target's AC treat the attack as a critical hit, otherwise the attack hits and deals normal damage.

So to clarify as I may be using a dagger only character you are saying that if any attack roll beats a target's AC not matches, but beats it you would treat the attack as a critical hit correct in essence turning the 1d6 into 2d6?.

Also if tyhis is the case ewould you let it stack with sneak attack?

[Socratov]

Actually a rogue with Sharpshooter and the deal with the DM that throwing daggers counts as a ranged weapon (though anything with the thrown property should count) would work well: you get 80' of throwing distance (not unlike some/most cantrips) and you get to apply sneak attack to it, even better: you don't need to get Crossbow expert to use it in melee range (and still get to apply sneak attack if you are good enough) as well as throw your daggers with the dreaded -5/+10 ability of sharpshooter AND ignore cover.

If you want to dual wield, get, well, dual wielder for +1 AC, the ability to draw more daggers in a turn and you're set, well, after you buy a literal metric ton of daggers.

So, there you have it: get rogue, get sharpshooter & Dual Wielder, go be LoL's Shaco or Katarina (everyone knows the ultimate is either a haste spell or a fighter 2's action surge).

[Zanthy1]

So to clarify as I may be using a dagger only character you are saying that if any attack roll beats a target's AC not matches, but beats it you would treat the attack as a critical hit correct in essence turning the 1d6 into 2d6?.

Also if tyhis is the case ewould you let it stack with sneak attack?

It would be d4's, not d6's, but in essence thats what it seems to say. I guess ultimately that is more what I was looking for, because a dagger dealing 2d4 is much more fun than nothing, plus dual wielding daggers wasn't actually something I wanted this character to do.

This is not my first dip into 5e, the character just is from a different RPG and I finally decided to move her over.

[xyianth]

So to clarify as I may be using a dagger only character you are saying that if any attack roll beats a target's AC not matches, but beats it you would treat the attack as a critical hit correct in essence turning the 1d6 into 2d6?.

Also if tyhis is the case ewould you let it stack with sneak attack?


It would be d4's, not d6's, but in essence thats what it seems to say. I guess ultimately that is more what I was looking for, because a dagger dealing 2d4 is much more fun than nothing, plus dual wielding daggers wasn't actually something I wanted this character to do.

This is not my first dip into 5e, the character just is from a different RPG and I finally decided to move her over.

To be clear, you can only twist the blade after hitting with a normal dagger melee attack.

It would work like this:

Example character: Goblin 5th level Rogue named Styx. He has an 18 dexterity.

Styx moves next to a target and takes the attack action. He makes 1 melee weapon attack using a dagger. Rolls 1d20+3(proficiency)+4(dexterity) vs the target's AC. For this example, the target has an AC of 16. The attack hits on a roll of 9-19, and critically hits on a 20. Styx does not have advantage on the roll, but an ally of Styx is within 5' of the target, so the attack can benefit from sneak attack. If the attacks hits, Styx deals 1d4+4(dexterity). If Styx wants to make it a sneak attack, he can add +3d6(sneak attack) damage. If the attack misses, Styx deals no damage. Styx has not yet used his bonus action.

If Styx has the Dagger Master feat, he has a few options. He still makes a normal attack as above which still hits on a 9 -19, and critical hits on a 20. If it hits, he can choose to not make the hit a sneak attack, dealing only the normal damage. (1d4+4) He can then make the special 'twist the blade' attack as his bonus action. This attack can not miss. You roll a second attack roll (1d20+3+4) against the target's AC (16). If the second attack roll meets or exceeds the target's AC (roll a 9 or better), the 'twist the blade' attack is a critical hit. Since Styx did not use his sneak attack damage yet, he can make the 'twist the blade' attack a sneak attack and apply his sneak attack damage to it. (+3d6 damage) if the 'twist the blade' attack is a critical hit, then the sneak attack dice is doubled.

Here are some example rolls to illustrate:
If Styx's first melee weapon attack roll is a 5, the attack misses (12<16). Styx cannot 'twist the blade'. If Styx is dual wielding, he can make a bonus attack as normal for two-weapon fighting. Otherwise, Styx can use his bonus action for anything else.
If Styx's first melee weapon attack roll is a 10, the attack hits (17>16). The attack does 1d4+4 damage and Styx 'twists the blade' with his bonus action. He rolls a 5 on the 'twist the blade' attack roll. His 'twist the blade' attack hits, but is not a critical hit (12<16). Styx applies his sneak attack damage to the 'twist the blade' attack. It deals 1d4+4+3d6 damage.
If Styx's first melee weapon attack roll is a 10, the attack hits (17>16). The attack does 1d4+4 damage and Styx 'twists the blade' with his bonus action. He rolls a 10 on the 'twist the blade' attack roll. His 'twist the blade' attack hits and is a critical hit (17>16). Styx applies his sneak attack damage to the 'twist the blade' attack. It deals 2d4+4+6d6 damage.

[Zanthy1]

To be clear, you can only twist the blade after hitting with a normal dagger melee attack.

It would work like this:

Example character: Goblin 5th level Rogue named Styx. He has an 18 dexterity.

Styx moves next to a target and takes the attack action. He makes 1 melee weapon attack using a dagger. Rolls 1d20+3(proficiency)+4(dexterity) vs the target's AC. For this example, the target has an AC of 16. The attack hits on a roll of 9-19, and critically hits on a 20. Styx does not have advantage on the roll, but an ally of Styx is within 5' of the target, so the attack can benefit from sneak attack. If the attacks hits, Styx deals 1d4+4(dexterity). If Styx wants to make it a sneak attack, he can add +3d6(sneak attack) damage. If the attack misses, Styx deals no damage. Styx has not yet used his bonus action.

If Styx has the Dagger Master feat, he has a few options. He still makes a normal attack as above which still hits on a 9 -19, and critical hits on a 20. If it hits, he can choose to not make the hit a sneak attack, dealing only the normal damage. (1d4+4) He can then make the special 'twist the blade' attack as his bonus action. This attack can not miss. You roll a second attack roll (1d20+3+4) against the target's AC (16). If the second attack roll meets or exceeds the target's AC (roll a 9 or better), the 'twist the blade' attack is a critical hit. Since Styx did not use his sneak attack damage yet, he can make the 'twist the blade' attack a sneak attack and apply his sneak attack damage to it. (+3d6 damage) if the 'twist the blade' attack is a critical hit, then the sneak attack dice is doubled.

Here are some example rolls to illustrate:
If Styx's first melee weapon attack roll is a 5, the attack misses (12<16). Styx cannot 'twist the blade'. If Styx is dual wielding, he can make a bonus attack as normal for two-weapon fighting. Otherwise, Styx can use his bonus action for anything else.
If Styx's first melee weapon attack roll is a 10, the attack hits (17>16). The attack does 1d4+4 damage and Styx 'twists the blade' with his bonus action. He rolls a 5 on the 'twist the blade' attack roll. His 'twist the blade' attack hits, but is not a critical hit (12<16). Styx applies his sneak attack damage to the 'twist the blade' attack. It deals 1d4+4+3d6 damage.
If Styx's first melee weapon attack roll is a 10, the attack hits (17>16). The attack does 1d4+4 damage and Styx 'twists the blade' with his bonus action. He rolls a 10 on the 'twist the blade' attack roll. His 'twist the blade' attack hits and is a critical hit (17>16). Styx applies his sneak attack damage to the 'twist the blade' attack. It deals 2d4+4+6d6 damage.


That sounds like you're making it too complex. I feel that a simple double damage dice and increased throw range would be plenty.

[xyianth]

Well, it is your game, do what you want. But double damage dice and throw range without conditions is significantly stronger than most feats. If you adopt that, the only incentive to use any other weapons is other feats. (such as GWF, SS, or PAM) The feat I suggested is essentially a form of two-weapon fighting that exchanges the accuracy benefits of two attacks for increased chance that one of them crits.

But, it is all homebrew at the end of the day, go with whatever works for your game.

[Fishyninja]

If Styx has the Dagger Master feat, he has a few options. He still makes a normal attack as above which still hits on a 9 -19, and critical hits on a 20. If it hits, he can choose to not make the hit a sneak attack, dealing only the normal damage. (1d4+4) He can then make the special 'twist the blade' attack as his bonus action. This attack can not miss. You roll a second attack roll (1d20+3+4) against the target's AC (16). If the second attack roll meets or exceeds the target's AC (roll a 9 or better), the 'twist the blade' attack is a critical hit. Since Styx did not use his sneak attack damage yet, he can make the 'twist the blade' attack a sneak attack and apply his sneak attack damage to it. (+3d6 damage) if the 'twist the blade' attack is a critical hit, then the sneak attack dice is doubled.
This is what I needed for clarification