How powerful is psionic power point recharge?

[Lormador]

I mean something like Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power, Bestow Power, etc.... that 6 feat trick that can recharge power points.

I am contemplating whether to include a Spell to Power Erudite villain with this capability in my game.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I am contemplating whether to include a Spell to Power Erudite villain with this capability in my game.

This is a bad idea in itself, recharge or no. StP erudite is absurdly powerful.

That out of the way, the recharge trick doesn't add much to direct combat capability but it does turn 8 hours of down-time that's normally called for into a matter of minutes. If your BBEG can get away, at all, he can harry the pary until they run out of resources and die.

More importantly, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you're not willing to let the players use these options, you shouldn't use them yourself. Would you allow your players to use either of these things?

[Lormador]

StP Erudite I would allow them to use, as I feel it's no more powerful than Wizard. I'm about equally hesitant to allow either.

A recharge configuration is something I've allowed once in the past, but in a solo game where all I really wanted to do was eliminate sleeping time. Neither the player nor I enjoyed it.

This NPC is a simulacrum of an Alhoon, and he's at 11th level. I've adjusted simulacrum so that the copies become constructs, so he has none of the special auras and negative energy whatnot on his parent creature. The parent creature is also out of the picture, as is the elder brain, a bizarre result of Bluetspur infighting. The simulacrum, and a couple of minions, are trapped outside of their home turf; along with a rival contingent of mind flayers from the living community.

I have this whole thing where I run several Ravenloft modules at the same time. This is my take on Thoughts of Darkness.

But anyway yeah, he's 11th level and he has Teleport, so the very annoying and probably deadly tactic of attack, teleport, recharge, repeat is beyond feasible. It would be elementary to it.

What I wanted from this creature was a suite of bizarre magical/psionic abilities meshed together, since he's an Alhoon (or looks like one). I looked at a couple of different Cerebremancer builds, but I have a limited amount of time here, and why use a freaky combination when StP Erudite seems to do the trick by itself? Further, he needed Teleport to function properly in his first scene, and getting 5ths on a Cerebremancer would push the parent creature level higher than I like, even with the creature out of the picture for the time being.

The trick I had him doing with this dirty recharge was to abuse an earlier version of Simbul's Spell Matrix as a psionic power. He'd bust out a whole slew of buffs from up his sleeve and instantly transform into a melee monster. It's one trick, but it's a good surprising trick; teleport away if dispelled or losing, and Psychic Reformation into a whole different beast for the next encounter.

[Zanos]

It's really quite strong, since it lets you essentially keep any buff spells you like up forever. Most of the recharge tricks don't take many actions, so as long as you refill every so often you can keep up all your buffs at max PP expenditure, and a lot of psionic buffs scale pretty hard with ML.

You can also nova every encounter.

Body Fuel(ability burn is specifically a type of ability damage) + Shape Soulmeld(Strongheart Vest) is probably the cheapest way to recharge. Spell to Power Erudites can also use Mental Pinnacle to get a stack of temporary power points to blow on whatever they feel like.

[martixy]

TBH I believe that trick doesn't work out of the box as described. There are ways to salvage it though, but you need an essentia capacity greater than 1(i.e. character level 6 or above) and well... more than 1 essentia. :)

For my part, if a character has invested in so many useless feats, they deserve this trick. It is justified by the cost of acquiring it.

[Lormador]

Mostly you can keep buffs up. Round/level buffs are not feasible at high augmentation levels. I had to calculate all of this out, and my Alhoon Simulacrum would spend about 1/3 of his time manifesting linked Bestow Powers. This is without using Synchronicity as the base.

EDIT: one problem though, martyxy, is that once the trick is allowed and you've got a community of psionic creatures... some of them can just be on recharge duty all the time, since Bestow Power's points don't necessarily have to go to the manifester.

[Kelb_Panthera]

StP erudite is very much more powerful than wizard.

Same tricks + psionics tricks - preparation hurdles = "holy **** what even is this?"

StP erudite was an ill-conceived adaptation created because somebody was worried that there weren't enough powers to justify picking erudite over a normal psion, or at least that people would percieve it that way.

Personally, I wouldn't allow either them or recharging.

You know teleportation is available to both sides of a cerebremance build and early-entry for arcane is pretty trivial, right? Or do you disallow early entry tricks?

[martixy]

EDIT: one problem though, martyxy, is that once the trick is allowed and you've got a community of psionic creatures... some of them can just be on recharge duty all the time, since Bestow Power's points don't necessarily have to go to the manifester.

This is true in an ideal TO landscape. It is highly unlikely in any game wishing to preserve a modicum of verisimilitude.
If I remember my calculations correctly, the efficiency of the base-level trick is 1/3 pp per round.

If you take my word for how the trick works(which is all I can offer right now, since the drive with the document that contained the details recently blew up), then the trick requires 7 feats and a character level of at least 6. In a reasonable psionic community, how many high-level psions do you think would there be, that have dedicated themselves to being nothing more than a glorified battery for their fellows?

[Lormador]

Ha, the DM that contemplates (and actually this did see play, but the situation did not devolve into combat) StP Erudite Alhoon Simulacrum with PP recharges is going to wince at an early entry with Precocious Apprentice? Hardly!

I would actually love to do a Cerebremancer build for this guy, but I can churn out a decent Erudite in about 20 minutes while the Cerebremancer would take longer both on the front end and in combat. I also didn't see a way to get him to 5th level spells at a level that wouldn't take the parent creature into the mid-20s, but I guess that's not so important. Silliness and unusability arises far earlier than that, and I never intend to actually use that creature. That's why I trapped it in the realm beneath Ravenloft with the Elder Brain, the Shadow Fey king, and all manner of obscene creatures that need never see the light of day.

Float me a Cerebremancer build that casts Teleport and I'll use that instead. You seem to take pity on my poor party. They're only two players!

@martyixy, we're talking about an illithid community with 25 members, plus the Elder Brain (when it was there). Surely each such community can afford to put some lower-ranking members on recharge duty?

EDIT EDIT: Here's the trick:

The Recharge Trick uses Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power and Metapower to manifest Bestow Power (linked to with a lower power point cost than power points bestowed by Bestow Power. This allows your psychic to do his thing, all day long.
Feats: Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power, Metapower, Psicrystal Containment
Powers: Bestow Power, a first level power (Here I use Synchronicity)
Method:
1. Focus yourself and your Psicrystal
2. You choose Synchronicity to be effected by Midnight Augmentation, investing one essentia
3. Expend your Psychic Focus to manifest a Synchronicity (which you have chosen to permanently join Linked Power to by Metapower)
4. Expend your Psicrystal's Psychic Focus to manifest Synchronicity, linked to Bestow Power (Costs reduced by Midnight Augmentation for -1, and Metapower for -2, reducing the cost of the Synchronicity/Bestow Power combo to 1 PP)
5. Refocus yourself and your Psicrystal (Doable in one round, if you choose Synchronicity as your 1st level power)
6. Repeat 3-6

Minimum Level: 3 (Higher without Flaws + Human)

[ExLibrisMortis]

StP erudite is very much more powerful than wizard.

Same tricks + psionics tricks - preparation hurdles = "holy **** what even is this?"
StP erudites can't use metamagic feats, including Persist Spell (the psionic equivalent is 3.0, which is a bit of a hurdle). StP erudites can't get wizard 9ths, and are always one spell level behind. StP erudites can't get most 9th-level discipline powers, either (only from one discipline). Wizards can get all 9th-level spells, and fast. Of course, there's still planar binding and stuff that makes erudites more powerful, but that's catching up to the wizard, not beating. Overcoming preparation hurdles takes a feat - Linked Power - just like a wizard spends feats to cast spontaneously - Versatile Spellcaster + spontaneous divination, or whatever combo you allow.

In short, the difference isn't all that big.

[Kelb_Panthera]

StP erudites can't use metamagic feats, including Persist Spell (the psionic equivalent is 3.0, which is a bit of a hurdle). StP erudites can't get wizard 9ths, and are always one spell level behind. StP erudites can't get most 9th-level discipline powers, either (only from one discipline). Wizards can get all 9th-level spells, and fast.

Classic overvaluing of 9ths. The breadth of power here more than makes up for the depth, which is only marginally more shallow to begin with.


Of course, there's still planar binding and stuff that makes erudites more powerful, but that's catching up to the wizard, not beating.

No, that's solidly beating since it's just extra without giving anything up.


Overcoming preparation hurdles takes a feat - Linked Power -

You only need to know the power soul crystal from MoI. On a PC it doesn't even matter since he -will- have the needed ability to smash an encounter if it's in his repetoire enough times per day that he and his companions will have to rest before he's used them all up by level 6.


just like a wizard spends feats to cast spontaneously - Versatile Spellcaster + spontaneous divination, or whatever combo you allow.

That has a substantial enough drawback that you'll want to stick to the normal prepare/cast method.


In short, the difference isn't all that big.

I disagree, heartily.



@lormador, I'll get back to you on that cerebremancer.

How's this grab you.

Psionic mindflayer 8/ wizard 1/ psion 1/ ardent 1/ cerebremancer 9 with precocious apprentice for the arcane requirement and magic mantle to qualify for phylactery creation. 20HD, casts spells as a 10th level wizard and manifests as a 19th level psion. Teleportation from psionic teleport.

The ardent level is basically a dead level but for the mantle granted power. He can become an alhoon anytime after taking that first cerebremancer level.

[Zanos]

Keep in mind that StP erudites don't poach from the wizard list, they poach from all arcane spells. That includes classes that have unique spells, or wizard spells at lower levels, or even divine spells that have been made arcane via wyrm wizard or somesuch. Divine tricks aside, this allows stuff like getting animate dead as a 2nd level spells from death master, planar binding as a 4th level spell from demonologist, or irresistible dance as a 6th from bards.

If you can heighten or otherwise get a manifestation of a power to 10th level, you can learn 9th level spells as well. Learning is only based on the highest level power you can manifest, not that you know.

[martixy]

EDIT EDIT: Here's the trick:

The Recharge Trick uses Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power and Metapower to manifest Bestow Power (linked to with a lower power point cost than power points bestowed by Bestow Power. This allows your psychic to do his thing, all day long.
Feats: Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power, Metapower, Psicrystal Containment
Powers: Bestow Power, a first level power (Here I use Synchronicity)
Method:
1. Focus yourself and your Psicrystal
2. You choose Synchronicity to be effected by Midnight Augmentation, investing one essentia
3. Expend your Psychic Focus to manifest a Synchronicity (which you have chosen to permanently join Linked Power to by Metapower)
4. Expend your Psicrystal's Psychic Focus to manifest Synchronicity, linked to Bestow Power (Costs reduced by Midnight Augmentation for -1, and Metapower for -2, reducing the cost of the Synchronicity/Bestow Power combo to 1 PP)
5. Refocus yourself and your Psicrystal (Doable in one round, if you choose Synchronicity as your 1st level power)
6. Repeat 3-6

Minimum Level: 3 (Higher without Flaws + Human)

Here's the thing though:

Midnight targets augmentation cost.
Metapower targets metapsionic cost.

I have not been able to find a definitive statement that metapsionic cost counts as an augmentation.
And if they are separate... the trick does not work. (Midnight has nothing to target, therefore you gain no cost reduction from it and come up even instead of ahead.)

What you need to do then is:
Manifest Augmented bestow power linked to bestow power.
Aug. BP = 6 (-2, Midnight), +4PP
Linked BP = 3 (-2 Metapower), +2PP
Total cost after deductions: 5
PP gained: 6

What this requires is:
1. Another feat to grant you an additional essentia point you can put into Midnight.
2. Character level 6 or above, so Midnight's essentia capacity rises above 1.

TBH, I'd love for the cheaper version to work, but...

As far as time goes(in rounds):
1. Focus yourself
2. Focus your psycrystal.
3. Manifest your sequence.

This does indeed result in a 1/3 pp per round effective recharge speed.
Psionic meditation increases the rate to 1/2 per round.
Further, if the syncronicty version is deigned to work... then you can do it at a rate of 1 per round.
0. Focus x2
1. Use standard action to manifest Syncronicity combo.
1.5. Use sync action to gain 1st focus.
2. Use move action to gain 2nd focus. Go to 1.

Epic allows further improvements, but that's a whole 'nother ballpark.

[Lormador]

@lormador, I'll get back to you on that cerebremancer.

How's this grab you.

Psionic mindflayer 8/ wizard 1/ psion 1/ ardent 1/ cerebremancer 9 with precocious apprentice for the arcane requirement and magic mantle to qualify for phylactery creation. 20HD, casts spells as a 10th level wizard and manifests as a 19th level psion. Teleportation from psionic teleport.

The ardent level is basically a dead level but for the mantle granted power. He can become an alhoon anytime after taking that first cerebremancer level.

That's lovely, and the build as written will work swimmingly for the parent Alhoon (who is pretty much permanently offscreen).

The NPC villain is his simulacrum. So what we're looking at at level 10 is Mindflayer 8 / Psion 1 / Wizard 1, correct? What's the Psion level for?

Just one of them would be a pretty weak challenge for my party of two 11th level characters (Druid and Crusader, with a sneaky cohort), but since they are simulacra I can put together... perhaps 3-4 of them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's lovely, and the build as written will work swimmingly for the parent Alhoon (who is pretty much permanently offscreen).

The NPC villain is his simulacrum. So what we're looking at at level 10 is Mindflayer 8 / Psion 1 / Wizard 1, correct? What's the Psion level for?

Just one of them would be a pretty weak challenge for my party of two 11th level characters (Druid and Crusader, with a sneaky cohort), but since they are simulacra I can put together... perhaps 3-4 of them.

The psion level is for advancing your racial manifesting. Without it, you can't advance your racial manifesting through cerebremancer since psion isn't a class to which you belong and is, therefore, not a valid choice by strictest RAW. I'd probably just handwave it myself since it's such an obvious technicality but I didn't want to presume. The levels are in the order they're taken.

Glad you like it. :smallcool:

[Lormador]

I'm definitely going to handwave that, and probably the otherwise-pretty-dead Ardent level as well. Or, anyway, that level could be put anywhere, and the levels in the second half of the build do not matter since Big Daddy will (hopefully) never get out of his prison. Now I also get to have a Cerebremancer level on the Simulacrum, which will help for the flavor if nothing else.

Now the questions become:

1) How many of these things will I need to challenge my party (11th Druid, 11th Crusader, sneaky cohort)?

2) They have access to Psychic Reformation and I assume they will use it. What specialized feat combinations are desirable?

Perhaps I shall use that Wildblooded Sorcerer archetype to make them INT-based Sorcerers, simplifying play for me and making those Psychic Reforms more profound. Not that it matters too much with only 1st level arcane spells to throw around. Just a free Heighten really.

So Mindflayer 8 / Sorcerer (INT-based) 1 / Cerebremancer 1

We can't touch Precocious Apprentice, but I see 4 feats that could potentially be adjusted.

[Calthropstu]

This is true in an ideal TO landscape. It is highly unlikely in any game wishing to preserve a modicum of verisimilitude.
If I remember my calculations correctly, the efficiency of the base-level trick is 1/3 pp per round.

If you take my word for how the trick works(which is all I can offer right now, since the drive with the document that contained the details recently blew up), then the trick requires 7 feats and a character level of at least 6. In a reasonable psionic community, how many high-level psions do you think would there be, that have dedicated themselves to being nothing more than a glorified battery for their fellows?

Easily accomplished via psychic reformation and dominate.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm definitely going to handwave that, and probably the otherwise-pretty-dead Ardent level as well. Or, anyway, that level could be put anywhere, and the levels in the second half of the build do not matter since Big Daddy will (hopefully) never get out of his prison. Now I also get to have a Cerebremancer level on the Simulacrum, which will help for the flavor if nothing else.

Again, the ardent level is strictly necessary for lichdom by RAW because you don't meet the phylactery's creation requirements without the hyper-transparency between magic and psionics from the magic mantle. You're the DM though, so that's your call.


Now the questions become:

1) How many of these things will I need to challenge my party (11th Druid, 11th Crusader, sneaky cohort)?

So Mindflayer 8 / Sorcerer (INT-based) 1 / Cerebremancer 1

I don't have ready answers for the rest of your questions but since that's basically a tougher psion 10 with a few special extras I'd say you'll need at least two. 4 is probably overkill unless that druid is being played to nearly its full power potential.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Classic overvaluing of 9ths. The breadth of power here more than makes up for the depth, which is only marginally more shallow to begin with.
Classic ignoring the point. You're always behind a spell level, ultimately resulting in not getting shapechange, but hurting your versatility and power all the way through.


No, that's solidly beating since it's just extra without giving anything up.
Before: Wizard has a broken trick erudites don't - planar binding. Wizard is ahead.
After: Wizard & StP erudite both have planar binding. StP erudite catches up to wizard.

Erudites aren't better at planar binding than wizards - apart from getting it a spell level late, it's the same thing, and erudites only just catch up to wizards in this department.


You only need to know the power soul crystal from MoI. On a PC it doesn't even matter since he -will- have the needed ability to smash an encounter if it's in his repetoire enough times per day that he and his companions will have to rest before he's used them all up by level 6.
Soul crystal does work out of combat, and it's a very good power, because you can share your abilities with others. On the other hand, it's a seventh-level power, it has a one-round manifesting time, it lasts for a limited amount of time, it takes 13 pp to access an extra power, and knowing soul crystal is not free (just like a wizard using shadow conjuration is not getting it for free). Linked Power + synchronicity is much more efficient, as in functions in combat and has multiple other uses.


That has a substantial enough drawback that you'll want to stick to the normal prepare/cast method.
If you think soul crystal is good enough, then Versatile Spellcaster certainly cuts it. It gets online much earlier (level 6 versus level 13), and it's a much more efficient way to get non-prepared spells, especially on the fly. If Versatile Spellcaster isn't good enough for you, there's always shadow conjuration/shadow evocation, limited wish (fairly costly, certainly, but worth it for some spells), and even supernatural wish emulating spell engine.

Basically, at lower cheese/character levels, erudites (StP or no) have no versatility advantage over wizards, and at higher cheese/character levels, wizards get versatility tricks at about the same rate as erudites.


I disagree, heartily.
And you're not providing any good reasons :smalltongue:. You're thinking "StP erudite = erudite + wizard = 2x wizard = broken". That's not the case. Erudites are not as strong as wizards to start with, and most of the StP erudite's advantages go towards closing that gap. Don't forget: there is almost no support for erudites. Beyond the StP/mantle/discipline options, there is only one full manifesting PrC, and nothing on the level of Incantatrix.
Zanos, however, makes a good point. If you can take spells like greater arcane fusion and arcane spellsurge, and use them on powers as if they are 'sorcerer spells you know', then yes, that's pretty serious (I don't think you can, by RAW). If you can borrow Trapsmith haste and Telflammar Shadowlord improved invisibility, that's pretty great. That said, it's a trick that archivists and artificers can use as well (and some wizard PrCs can do a limited form), with support from the likes of Persistent Spell and Dweomerkeeper, so I'm not convinced it's going to be much more game-breaking than what StP erudites are doing.

Incidentally, you can turn all sorts of spells/powers into other sorts through Chameleon Crafting (Dragon #349), which allows you to place spells into power stones and powers into scrolls - StP erudites, watch out for the crafting theurge. I wonder what happens when you place a StP'd greater arcane fusion into a divine scroll.


In short: while StP erudites have their tricks, and do have some things they do better 'out of the box' than other t1 classes, they sit squarely within the range of archivist, artificer, cleric, and wizard. The difference is not noteworthy enough to be all "oh they're so broken".

[Zanos]

A class that can manifest every power in the game and cast every spell in the game from every list essentially at will isn't exactly within the same scope as a wizard or cleric.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A class that can manifest every power in the game and cast every spell in the game from every list essentially at will isn't exactly within the same scope as a wizard or cleric.
StP erudites don't have that, or, at least, less so than archivists and artificers do. On all three, it'll take some serious optimization to get all powers and all spells at-will. You need to pay for all powers known, and for erudites, that payment is in XP (plus, you need to find the spells in-universe, on an actual caster - you can't learn anything from scrolls!). It's not a coincidence tier 0 is defined by the psion (backed up by a theoretical StP erudite with psychic chirurgery and a thought bottle), but not the StP erudite by itself.

If you want all powers and all spells (to the extent that they're useful, so ignoring duplicates), various builds have advantages over StP erudites: straight artificers, a Chameleon Crafting archivist, a PrC bonanza like beguiler/Rainbow Servant/Sublime Chord, an ardent ur-theurge, or a planar binding wizard. Bind stuff with (Sp) and (Su), go to town - erudites need to be StP to even start on doing some of this, and any PrC ability to improve it is inaccessible.

Maybe their broad spell access puts archivists, artificers, and StP erudites higher in versatility than wizards and clerics. That's fair - they're all able to access spells and powers from an unusually broad range, even within t1. Simultaneously, the lack of support for StP erudites in particular doesn't help their power (I'm looking at Incantatrix and Persistent Spell, yet again, and Dweomerkeeper, Halruaan Elder, etcetera). Considering all that, I don't think there's a reason to consider StP erudite 'absurdly powerful', when in the company of the other tier 1 giants.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Classic ignoring the point. You're always behind a spell level, ultimately resulting in not getting shapechange, but hurting your versatility and power all the way through.

Except you're not. Psion and wizard share a fair number of capabilities in the form of psionic <X> spells that literally read; see the spell of the same name. They even get mindblank two levels early.

Losing shapechange stings only a little and if you -really- want it, there's always planar touchstone (catalogues of enlightenment). If you're not overconcerned with race choices, there's also power crystals and power repositories from magic of eberron.

Finally, they get their -own- tricks that wizards don't. What spell even comes close to fission?


Before: Wizard has a broken trick erudites don't - planar binding. Wizard is ahead.
After: Wizard & StP erudite both have planar binding. StP erudite catches up to wizard.

This is where your argument fails. Both wizards and erudites have tricks the other cannot natively access. The StP variant removes that restriction from the erudite but not the wizard. Yes, he gets the unique wizard tricks two levels later than the wizard does but that's not at all a big deal.


Erudites aren't better at planar binding than wizards - apart from getting it a spell level late, it's the same thing, and erudites only just catch up to wizards in this department.

Erudites don't need to be better at binding to be ahead of the wizard. That they get it -and- the unique erudite tricks puts them ahead.


Soul crystal does work out of combat, and it's a very good power, because you can share your abilities with others.

The surcharge certainly sucks but the abillity to completely bypass the UPD mechanic is well worth it and it doesn't cost you any feats.


On the other hand, it's a seventh-level power,

That's a fair point.


it has a one-round manifesting time,

putting it in the same boat with linked synchronisity.


it lasts for a limited amount of time,

13 hours is barely limited.


it takes 13 pp to access an extra power,

well worth avoiding a feat tax.


and knowing soul crystal is not free (just like a wizard using shadow conjuration is not getting it for free).

it's cheaper than a feat.


Linked Power + synchronicity is much more efficient, as in functions in combat and has multiple other uses.

Soulcrystal's duration makes storing several combat spell at the top of the day trivial and storing it in quintessence during downtime gets the action cost back but makes them essentially permanent. Powerstones and cognizance crystals can suck it.


If you think soul crystal is good enough, then Versatile Spellcaster certainly cuts it. It gets online much earlier (level 6 versus level 13), and it's a much more efficient way to get non-prepared spells, especially on the fly. If Versatile Spellcaster isn't good enough for you, there's always shadow conjuration/shadow evocation, limited wish (fairly costly, certainly, but worth it for some spells), and even supernatural wish emulating spell engine.

StP erudite gets those shadow spells too, also bypassing the UPD mechanic.

That aside, soulcrystal is cheaper than the versatile spellcaster combo in a number of important ways; 0 feats vs 2 is quite substantial alone, 2 spell slots for one spell vs 13+ up to 2*ML PP for up to as many manifestations of the selected power as 2*ML can produce.


Basically, at lower cheese/character levels, erudites (StP or no) have no versatility advantage over wizards, and at higher cheese/character levels, wizards get versatility tricks at about the same rate as erudites.

At minimum, erudites have the advantage of having their entire repetoire available at all times right up until they manifest that last unique power for the day. That is incredibly substantial and you're just glossing over it.

At top-cheese, the psion in a game with a StP erudite beats the living bejeesus out of both of them, possibly combined.


And you're not providing any good reasons :smalltongue:.

My reasons are plenty good, you just don't agree with them.


You're thinking "StP erudite = erudite + wizard = 2x wizard = broken". That's not the case. Erudites are not as strong as wizards to start with, and most of the StP erudite's advantages go towards closing that gap.

It's not that E+W=2*W. It's that E+~.85*W>W. The erudite isn't quite as powerful as the wizard but it's close; more than close enough that adding about 85% of a wizard that casts all his spells spontaneously puts it well over the top for equal and pushes it substantially ahead. You're -severely- underestimating how powerful an erudite is if you think it's absolutely dwarfed by a wizard.


Don't forget: there is almost no support for erudites. Beyond the StP/mantle/discipline options, there is only one full manifesting PrC, and nothing on the level of Incantatrix.[/spoiler]

Most of the best wizard support is just icing on the already substantial cake that is wizard. The only support that actually matters is the spell-list expansions and not even all of that. While the psion/wilder list wasn't expanded nearly as much, it was still expanded quite substantially and it natively had what are arguably some of the most powerful tricks to begin with; action economy breakers.

StP gives the already substantial erudite the bulk of the substance of a wizard at the cost of a single bonus feat and he can make better use of it overall even if he can't use any individual part better.





But let's stop here. Neither of us is likely to convince the other and this is just a derailment anyway.

[Nifft]

Okay, stepping back for a moment, I think the solution to the OP's villain issue is simple:

- Evil NPC Psion who did research to obtain spell-equivalent powers for some small number of spells.

- An item which requires the soul of an innocent to activate, and then for 1 week it gives you 3/day power point recharging as it consumes the soul. Maybe an evil artifact which the PCs will destroy for lots of XP.

IMHO that's a lot cleaner than allowing StP Erudite or power-loops.

[Lormador]

The discussion of whether Erudite is 0.5 vs. wizard and cleric being tier 1 comes up pretty much every time the suggestion to use one in an actual game is made. It's fine if folks want to talk about that, there's space in this thread for all.

I think we all agree on the basic premise that every tier 1 class enters the TO La-La-Land of Unplayable Brokenness, and the only question is which one enters the fastest, or with the least obscure rule/item abuse, or whichever one whistles "everything you can do..." the most pleasantly.

So much do I enjoy the "TO La-La-Land of Unplayable Brokenness" that my game has an in-universe area where such characters get shunted off to. You might call it "The Real Ravenloft" if "TO La-La-Land of Unplayable Brokenness" doesn't roll off the tongue.

Re: how many to use, one issue is that the PCs may, or may not, form an alliance with two living mindflayers (a shaper and a telepath, along with their thralls, a werebat troll barbarian 4 and duergar zen archer 6) to gang up on this guy.

I suppose the solution there is to use 2 Alhoon Simulacra, give one or both Expanded Knowledge (Mind Control), and prepare 2 suites of thralls, one if the PCs go it alone and one if they have that serious backup.

@Nifft, I like those ideas but there's a problem with the artifact plan.

1) Part of what makes the Alhoon Simulacra so terrifying is that you really don't know how many of them there are. Big Daddy could have made a whole lot of copies, so I really want stuff that works with little/no gear, straight out of the box, implying to the players that even such a mighty foe did not want to spend the paltry amount of gold to equip them with Headbands of Intellect because he had so many of them.

So it doesn't make a lot of sense for Big Daddy to be handing out artifacts to copies of himself, copies that he hasn't bothered to give +2 Int items.

2) Did you ever notice how many artifacts there are in Ravenloft? For sheer density it beats everything. Just so far, the players have come into possession of three of them: the Icon of Ravenloft, the Rod of Houtras, and a Book of Vile Darkness.

They have only just scratched the surface, too. The Holy Symbol of Ravenloft is still in Barovia. The Crown of Souls from the Feast of Goblyns module that the players didn't investigate is off in that new realm that forms at the end of it. I don't quite recall, but I think there's an artifact in the Maw of Arawn that the players haven't investigated yet. The whole set of Regalia of Arak is in play once the Conjunction ends and the Shadow Rift opens for business.

More than half of the 2nd edition Ravenloft modules are powered by these MacGuffins, so it's work to maintain their status as special and scary. I am accordingly hesitant to introduce any more of them.

[Nifft]

@Nifft, I like those ideas but there's a problem with the artifact plan.

1) Part of what makes the Alhoon Simulacra so terrifying is that you really don't know how many of them there are. Big Daddy could have made a whole lot of copies, so I really want stuff that works with little/no gear, straight out of the box, implying to the players that even such a mighty foe did not want to spend the paltry amount of gold to equip them with Headbands of Intellect because he had so many of them.

So it doesn't make a lot of sense for Big Daddy to be handing out artifacts to copies of himself, copies that he hasn't bothered to give +2 Int items.

Okay. It's not an artifact, it's a custom power that Big Daddy researched which sucks out a soul and uses it to re-fuel over the course of some unit of time. Maybe it's highly necromantic to fit the feel of the other researched powers.


More than half of the 2nd edition Ravenloft modules are powered by these MacGuffins, so it's work to maintain their status as special and scary. I am accordingly hesitant to introduce any more of them.

Those are all good reasons, especially that last one.

So, this custom power might look like:

Soul Feed
Psychometabolism
Level: Custom 5

This power functions as death knell, and in addition, you gain one soul point per HD of the slain victim. These soul points must be stored in a gemstone of great value, either a 100 gp gemstone embedded in your forehead, or your psicrystal. In either case, while you have unspent soul points, the faces of your recent victims can be seen silently screaming within the stone.

You can spend a soul point as a Swift action to grant yourself power regeneration 5 for 1 minute, which restores a total of 50 expended power points over the course of one minute.

Special: Each day, when you meditate to restore your power points, you lose one soul point. If the soul containment stone is destroyed, you lose all unspent soul points.

[Lormador]

Homebrew researched psychic powers are a good way out of this mess. They'll leave behind no trace once the monsters are destroyed, and it's a license to do some pretty scary things that the characters won't have seen before.

[Nifft]

Homebrew researched psychic powers are a good way out of this mess. They'll leave behind no trace once the monsters are destroyed, and it's a license to do some pretty scary things that the characters won't have seen before.

PLUS, it highlights a seldom-used rule of the game ("spell research"), and that gives you all sorts of plot-hooks to make the PCs do hilariously dangerous things while pursuing.

[Lormador]

Actually, it may be seldom-used in other games, but my players love that and almost always take advantage of it when playing a caster.

The most recently researched spell is Electroshock Vivifivation, a Druid spell wherein you combine a long casting time with getting struck by lightning to remove negative levels, ability damage/drain, and other status ailments.

It's a small party without a cleric, and these kinds of bad things happen in Ravenloft all the time, so we felt the need for him to have a worse Restoration spell.

[Nifft]

Actually, it may be seldom-used in other games, but my players love that and almost always take advantage of it when playing a caster. Then they won't feel cheated when you do it. Perfect.


The most recently researched spell is Electroshock Vivifivation, a Druid spell wherein you combine a long casting time with getting struck by lightning to remove negative levels, ability damage/drain, and other status ailments. That's completely awesome, and I'm probably going to steal it if I ever get to play a 3.5e Druid again.

[Anthrowhale]

There seems to be a completeness property w.r.t. spell/power access.

S2P erudite can work with any arcane spell (except 9ths), and any spell can be made arcane.

Psychic Chirurgery can spread any power to other manifesters, hence all manifesters could have access to any spell (except 9ths).

Mental Pinnacle makes any Sorcerer/Wizard into a manifester, so every spell could be accessed as a power by a Sorcerer/Wizard, an Archivist, or any other caster capable of putting Mental Pinnacle on their list.

So, the claim is that all manifesters and all casters with Mental Pinnacle on their list have (theoretical) access to all powers and all spells except 9ths.

The advantages of a casting basis seems to be higher caster/manifester level (i.e. red wizard 10 using caster/manifester level 40) and access to 9ths. The advantage of a manifester basis seems to be more baseline versatility (which disappears at higher levels of optimization) and some relatively unique metapsionics like burrowing power.