LA houserule?

[SangoProduction]

I've seen something like this suggested for level adjustment in an online campaign.


You may take up to +4 LA. In place of the LA, you instead have a negative level (-1 to various stats) per LA. You also must have a number of levels in classes that don't progress casting/manifesting/initiating/etc equal to 1.5 times the LA taken (rounded up). Base classes that can't cast spells(/etc) at level 1 don't count as progressing casting for the purpose of these LA requirements.
LA buyoff is allowed.

What do you guys think of it? I think it's a buff to LA (since it effectively gives HD and skills and what not to LA), without helping spellcasters.

But I am unsure as to the actual effect of it, so I wanted to bring it up with a group of people who understand game optimization better than I do.

Obviously, the best of the best templates (for martial characters at least) are still going to be the best. Optimized casters never took LA, so the don't care. But, would things like Half-Dragon suddenly be worthwhile? And are the best templates going to be better or worse, in general?

[MesiDoomstalker]

If I'm reading the number's right, a Half-Dragon would take -4 to various statistics, but gain a good Strength (and Con, Int and Cha), a bad Breath Weapon, an Energy Immunity, some Natural Armor and possibly Flight, depending. I wouldn't take that. The Negative Levels directly counteract the Strength bonus and nothing else it gives even touches the other negatives gained. Now, part of that is Half-Dragon is a bad template but still. It does make builds with non-standard races easier to stomach but I doubt I'd do much more than take standard LA options for martials and build a regular no-LA build. I'd want some reworked LA to consider most options even remotely viable.

[OldTrees1]

So if I understand this correctly:
A caster would take the LA straight (+1 LA = -1 level)
A partial caster(say Paladin) or a non caster can convert +1 LA => 1 negative level every 1.5 class levels?
A monster(say an Ogre) would take the LA straight until they started taking partial caster/non caster levels?
A partial caster that enters a prestige class that progressed their partial casting would not benefit further from this rule.


Some examples (These examples ignore the LA buyoff because I am too lazy to find higher LA examples)
Ogre: 4RHD, +2LA => 6th level character
Ogre Fighter 1: 5HD, +2LA, 0 neg level => 7th level character
Ogre Fighter 2: 6HD, +1LA, 1 neg level => 7th level character
Ogre Fighter 3: 7HD, +0LA, 2 neg level => 7th level character
Half Celestial Human Fighter 1: 1HD, +4LA => 5th level character
Half Celestial Human Fighter 6: 6HD, +0LA, 4 neg levels => 6th level character

Half Celestial Paladin 6: 6HD, +0LA, 4 neg level => 7th level character
Half Celestial Paladin 4 / Knight of the Raven 2: 6HD, +2LA, 2 neg levels => 8th level character
Knight of the Raven is a 9/10 progression of Paladin spellcasting.

What is a negative level:
1) If you have too many you die. So there is an increases vulnerability to Wraiths & Enervation.
2) You lose 5hp per negative level. 5hp per 2.5HD is only 2hp per HD
3) -1 spell slot starting from the highest
4) -1 to attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks
5) -1 class level for anything based on class level. (cancels out the gained level)

#1 is a vulnerability that needs to be watched but is irrelevant most of the time.
#2 can really hurt low HD characters but they could just increase their Con a bit.
#3 hurts partial casters in addition to the prestige class glitch. So partial casters might opt out.
#4 is nothing. The non casters and partial casters can get their numbers high enough to ignore this.
#5 cancels itself out by canceling out some benefits of this option. So some rare cases might be less valuable.

End result:

Non casters (excluding Martial Adepts) get free +2 LA for every 3 class levels. They will fill that up at little cost other than selecting a +con template.
Martial Adepts will not gain Initiator levels from the levels they gain by waiving LA. As such they would still limit themselves to a small amount of LA. This is kinda like how full casters make sure not to lose too many caster levels, except Martial Adepts can be satisfied with 8th level maneuvers (unlike casters and their mandatory 9ths).
Partial casters will often opt out. When they don't they are careful to balance how much LA they can take while still retaining as much spell progression as they want. The amount they are willing to forgo is in question because lost spell slots can be lost spell levels & required levels can be delayed prestige class features.
Full casters are not eligible.



So my 20th level warrior would have 0RHD, 20 levels, & 13 waived LA (from a 0RHD race & lots of templates with acquired templates being taken during the campaign).
But my 20th level Warblade would have 0RHD, 20 levels, & only 1(8th level stance)-5(8th level maneuver) waived LA
Edit: Initiators are treated as Full casters.

[SangoProduction]

I think it was meant more along the lines of:

Instead of normal LA rules, take negative levels equal to the LA.

But you must have non-casting classes equal to 1.5 x (LA).

[OldTrees1]

I think it was meant more along the lines of:

Instead of normal LA rules, take negative levels equal to the LA.

But you must have non-casting classes equal to 1.5 x (LA).

Yes, although it has a couple of qualifiers about what is a non casting class (Paladin counts but their PrC's don't.)

My long post is based on the consequences of those rules(even looked up and detailed the negative level rules).

[SangoProduction]

Yes, although it has a couple of qualifiers about what is a non casting class (Paladin counts but their PrC's don't.)

My long post is based on the consequences of those rules(even looked up and detailed the negative level rules).

Ah. I thought you were asking for clarification. My bad.

[OldTrees1]

Ah. I thought you were asking for clarification. My bad.

I guess I was kinda questioning if those interactions were intended or were unintended. Now that I think about it my entire post is one long "Do these RAW consequences match the designer's intent?".

[SangoProduction]

I dunno. I just saw some guy post it, so I wanted to see what the giants thought.

[Lormador]

Huge potential for abuse.

Iron Heart Surge will clear the negative levels, will it not? Sacred Vitality will give immunity to them for 1 minute per turn attempt.

Undead creatures don't get negative levels, so slap some Necropolitan onto those templates...

[Crake]

Huge potential for abuse.

Iron Heart Surge will clear the negative levels, will it not? Sacred Vitality will give immunity to them for 1 minute per turn attempt.

Undead creatures don't get negative levels, so slap some Necropolitan onto those templates...

Presumably this is actually the LA variant in races of faerun Player's guide to faerun, which has "Negative level adjustments" which act much the same as negative levels, but are not actually the mechanical construct of "negative levels" and thus you cannot be 'immune' to them, or remove them in any way other than gaining levels, or in this case it seems buying them off.


If I'm reading the number's right, a Half-Dragon would take -4 to various statistics, but gain a good Strength (and Con, Int and Cha), a bad Breath Weapon, an Energy Immunity, some Natural Armor and possibly Flight, depending. I wouldn't take that. The Negative Levels directly counteract the Strength bonus and nothing else it gives even touches the other negatives gained. Now, part of that is Half-Dragon is a bad template but still. It does make builds with non-standard races easier to stomach but I doubt I'd do much more than take standard LA options for martials and build a regular no-LA build. I'd want some reworked LA to consider most options even remotely viable.

Half dragons are LA3, not 4 like half fiend and celestial, seems to be a common mix up on the forums here.

I don't particularly like that they removed initiating as one of the options for those first 1.5xLA levels, though I suppose it's not so bad, since you get half initiator level for those 1.5x levels at least. I can kinda see where they're coming from honestly, giving you HD to make you more survivable, without completely negating the point of LA by letting you take whatever you want.

[Hurnn]

If it works like the FR one you get to play a nerfed version of your character at lvl 1, but it still has the same issues as normal LA in that sure you are kinda good relative to everyone else but then they hit 2nd level and you are still first but marginally better then they hit 3rd level and you are still 1st level but a little bit better. This will happen for another level or 2 if you went with an LA 3 or 4, and in the end makes you just as unplayable.


I had been doing an exp penalty of 10% per LA which required a bit of book keeping as you had to track actual EXP and effective EXP. Actual determines your level, and effective is used to calculate your EXP gains. For example if you were LA 2 with 2400 actual and 3000 effective you would gain EXP as a 3rd level character even though you are a second. By 20th lvl you will end up 1-5 levels behind depending on your LA.