4th level cleric advice

[BoringInfoGuy]

Our party is expected to reach 4th level next game session.

Since ASI or Feats only happen every 4 class levels - this seems like one of the more important decisions to make. This is my first 5th edition character. While I have been enjoying 5th so far, I can tell that I do not fully grok it. I still tend to think in 3.5 terms.

Hence my coming here.

Our party is a Human Rogue, Human Sorcerer, Gnome Wizard, and my character, an Elven Cleric Life Doman of Mask with a criminal background.

STR: 12, Dex: 16, Con: 13, Int: 8, Wis: 16, Cha: 10.
AC: 17 (Studded Leather + Dex + shield)

So our group lacks a Str based character, but we do well at the sneaking about. We also lack a LG character, so we feel free to take unorthodox approaches.

So, for my Cleric, I have three options that stand out.
1) ASI to increase my Wis to 18.
Pro: Obvious bonuses. +1 to save DC, +1 to my Wis save bonus, one more Spell prepared, +1 to Insight and Perception Skills (and Survival which is untrained), +1 healed with spells (Level 1 Cure Wounds would restore 1d8+7 instead +6).
Con: Pretty much none.

2) Warcaster feat
Pro: Considered the best feat for Clerics. Advantage on Concentration saves is probably going to be very useful at higher levels. The other aspects are also nice.

Con: The still small number of spells per day limits the usefulness of the ability to use spells for Attacks of Opportunities. Better to wait till level 8?

3) Medium Armor Mastery
Why I'm looking at it:
As a Dex based Cleric, upgrading my AC will be difficult. Going to Medium armor limits my Dex bonus to +2. So a Chain Shirt would give the same +15 as the Studded Leather already being worn (12 +3 vs 13 +2). Scale Mail, would grant +16, but also disadvantage to stealth checks. (Both the rogue and my cleric are skilled at stealth.)

Breastplate would also give the same +16 bonus, without the stealth penalty, but costs 400gp, and the small town we are in is not likely to have it in stock. Half Plate is even more expensive, would give a +17 bonus, but also has disadvantage.

Pro: Medium Armor mastery would let me use my full +3 Dex Bonus to AC, and removed
the disadvantage on stealth checks. So even a Chain Shirt would increase my AC. Halfplate would give the same bonus as Full Plate, while still being able to sneak about.

Con: Considered a weaker feat. Is a +1 AC bonus and stealth worth it delaying a Wis increase or Warcaster?

[Dalebert]

I'm surprised resilient (con) wasn't in the list considering you have an odd con score.

[Gignere]

What do you do in combat? Cast, melee, both, do you tank? If you are primarily casting I would just get the +2 wisdom. If you melee or tank either war caster or resilient con will be necessary.

[djreynolds]

I'm surprised resilient (con) wasn't in the list considering you have an odd con score.

Yeah I like resilient con, its better in the end if you are targeted with spells, +8 to all con saves at level 17.

Do you use a bow, or rapier and shield?

For now I would use the wisdom boost as Gignere suggests, it affects all your spells and channel divinity and prepared spells... never know when that odd spell will be useful to have.

Once you max out wisdom, grab resilient con at 12th.

And then you have 3 important saves covered, wisdom and con and charisma (banishment sucks)

I played a life cleric in CoS, wisdom is the key stat and resilient con would have been my next selection at 12th, but the game ended at 12th.

I think 16 dex is fine, but if this is your attack stat you can always throw an ASI in that also

[Ogre Mage]

When in doubt take the +2 ASI to your main statistic, which is wisdom in this case. As others I have suggested I would go:

4th: +2 Wis
8th: +2 Wis
12th: Resilient (Constitution)

[djreynolds]

When in doubt take the +2 ASI to your main statistic, which is wisdom in this case. As others I have suggested I would go:

4th: +2 Wis
8th: +2 Wis
12th: Resilient (Constitution)

That is excellent advice.

[Dalebert]

Maybe you have very kind DMs. Mine often target casters specifically to end their spells. Some way to aid concentration is almost always a priority for me over maxing my caster stat. A spell an enemy ends early is a waste both in terms of slots and action economy. Would you want a feat that gave you more slots and actions? Think of it that way in order to compare the opportunity costs.

[BoringInfoGuy]

Thank you all for the advice so far.

To answer the question of my role in combat.

Front line tank using a Dex Build. In combat, I fight with a shortsword and shield, positioning myself to give the rogue his sneak attack damage while trying to keep opponents off two arcane casters. So I spend most of my time in melee.

In combat, I mostly use the shortsword and Sacred Flame for damage, only using my bow in situations where we are not going to close with the enemy for some reason.

Most of my spell slots get used for healing / buffs, but as more slots become available, I mix in a Spiritual Weapon or Guiding Bolt.

(For the those curious why I went Dex cleric instead of a more traditional Wis / Con / Str build, the answer is simply that my last two major 3.5 characters were a LG Dwarf Cleric followed by a Human Paladin. The party needed a healer, and I wanted to do something a little different instead of copy pasting past character traits).

Last combat I got dropped early, and the rogue soon followed. Thankfully our castors were able to finish up while we were making death saves.

One of the things I was looking at was getting better armor to take less hits and do better as a front liner. However, I also do not want to have disadvantage on stealth checks. We have been a sneaky party, using stealth to get into advantages position when possible. So spending 400 GP on Breastplate for only an effective +1 to AC seems annoying.

Part of the problem is I really WANT to take Medium Armor Mastery. It fits my character. However, what I want is not what is best for the party.

Now, making Con saves and not losing your Concentration spells early will be very important. Warcaster gives advantage on those saves. So what makes Resilient (Con) more desirable? Not arguing which is better, just seeking understanding.

[BillyBobShorton]

Bless is an indespensible party combat buff. You should be using it often, if you aren't already. It requires concentration. Shield of Faith is also huge, EXPECIALLY at lower levels. Guidance is hands down one of (if not THEEE) the best cantrips in the game. Concentration. Bane can be great for softening up foes defense against damage spells and odd combat saves. Again.. Concentration.

All start up spells you should/will use for your entire run with this PC.

Take warcaster. Believe me. Early it trumps the need for higher wisdom. That's useless if you can't hold your spells anyway, so save the wis ASI for 8 and take warcaster. It adds a lot of mechanical perks and you see a significant change in your character immediately.

[Dalebert]

Part of the problem is I really WANT to take Medium Armor Mastery. It fits my character. However, what I want is not what is best for the party.

What that says to me is you care about AC and so expect to mix it up in melee a bit. In that case, Warcaster may be a better fit. And since you seem interested in melee, I anticipate a lot of frustration with your concentration spells ending early.


Now, making Con saves and not losing your Concentration spells early will be very important. Warcaster gives advantage on those saves. So what makes Resilient (Con) more desirable? Not arguing which is better, just seeking understanding.

Neither is better. It's just a matter of what's a better fit for your character. Both will help with concentration checks but each one has additional benefits so it depends what you want.

If you're not mixing it up in combat much, much of Warcaster will be wasted. If you are, the extra stuff on Warcaster could be awesome, like being able to cast Hold person as a reaction when someone tries to flee you.

Resilient Con will tend to be better for just making concentration checks in the long run. In the short term it might not be as good but as your proficiency bonus grows, so does its benefit, probably to the point of making your odds better than with Warcaster alone. Also, con saves are valuable in general; not just for concentration checks. And it includes +1 con which is nice if your con is odd. That even means more hit points for instance.

[Gignere]

Given the additional info I would recommend resilient con given your odd con score. When you get it at level 4 that will be a +4 to con saves. Although that is slightly worse than advantage for a DC 10 con save but it will be better if it was a higher DC. However by level 5 it will be a +5 basically the same as war caster, but you get more hps and it works on all con saves not just concentration rolls.

Warcaster is generally wasted on clerics since they can just slap their holy symbols on their shield, it is much more useful on sword and board EKs, bladelocks, and wizards.

[BoringInfoGuy]

Given the additional info I would recommend resilient con given your odd con score. When you get it at level 4 that will be a +4 to con saves. Although that is slightly worse than advantage for a DC 10 con save but it will be better if it was a higher DC. However by level 5 it will be a +5 basically the same as war caster, but you get more hps and it works on all con saves not just concentration rolls.

Warcaster is generally wasted on clerics since they can just slap their holy symbols on their shield, it is much more useful on sword and board EKs, bladelocks, and wizards.
Want to touch on the statement that Warcaster is wasted on Clerics because we can just slap our Holy Symbol on our shield. My Cleric does have his holy symbol on his shield, but that does not always help.

For the Holy Symbol to remove the need for a free hand to cast the Somatic Components of the spell, the spell must also have a Material component that the Holy Symbol can be a focus for.

Effectively, that limits the Shield Trick to most V,S,M spells. Any spells that are V,S only still require that free hand. Notable examples are Sacred Flame, Cure Wounds, Guiding Bolt, Lesser Restoration, Spiritual Weapon. I've mostly dealt with that limitation by using my Object Interaction to stow and draw my shortsword as needed. But I have missed out on the occasional Opportunity Attack for not having a weapon in hand when someone runs by.

While non divine Sword and Board casters would get MORE benefit from being able to ignore the free hand requirement, it is not a wasted feature.

And there is still the Advantage on Saves to Maintain Concentration and the ability to use 1a spells for your opportunity attacks. Both are useful features.

Still, that quibble aside, you make a strong case for Resilient (Con), and have added it to my considerations.

[djreynolds]

But you are filling in the position of "tank" and cleric.

You have shield of faith, use it. Forget spamming bless. +2 AC, not bad.

So you have an odd con, I would take resilient con now as it will be +4HP and affect your saves

Resilient con is great, no doubt and war caster is just as good.

So here are you are choices

Resilient con will give you proficiency in con saves, making a 14 in con for +2 and +2 from proficiency =+4 for all con saves and concentration checks and 1d4 if you have bless running and an additional +4hp just from the con boost, remember this increases to +2+6=+8 at 17th level

War Caster gives you advantage, say +5 but only for concentration checks... nothing to with being paralyzed by ghouls

You do have heavy armor proficiency, chainmail and shield is AC18, plus shield of faith is 20AC

Breast plate and 14 dex is AC16 plus shield is AC18, plus shield of faith is 20AC.

The gnome wizard, being a cool team guy, could cast Blur (if he has it) on you or the rogue

Or just plus up wisdom, giving you more prepared spells

like...

AID, good for 3 buddies, basically 5 extra HP for 8 hours...yes prepare this

Hold person... yes please... auto crits for the rogue

Spiritual weapon... yes bonus action

Healing word yes bonus action

Protection from evil... I fight lots of demons and undead

So IMO, wisdom

And forget MAM, 15+3+2= 20AC not bad but very pricy when breastplate and shield is AC18

[Dalebert]

The gnome wizard, being a cool team guy, could cast Blur (if he has it) on you or the rogue

Blur is self only.

[BoringInfoGuy]

But you are filling in the position of "tank" and cleric.

You have shield of faith, use it. Forget spamming bless. +2 AC, not bad.

So you have an odd con, I would take resilient con now as it will be +4HP and affect your saves

Resilient con is great, no doubt and war caster is just as good.

So here are you are choices

Resilient con will give you proficiency in con saves, making a 14 in con for +2 and +2 from proficiency =+4 for all con saves and concentration checks and 1d4 if you have bless running and an additional +4hp just from the con boost, remember this increases to +2+6=+8 at 17th level

War Caster gives you advantage, say +5 but only for concentration checks... nothing to with being paralyzed by ghouls

You do have heavy armor proficiency, chainmail and shield is AC18, plus shield of faith is 20AC

Breast plate and 14 dex is AC16 plus shield is AC18, plus shield of faith is 20AC.

The gnome wizard, being a cool team guy, could cast Blur (if he has it) on you or the rogue

Or just plus up wisdom, giving you more prepared spells

like...

AID, good for 3 buddies, basically 5 extra HP for 8 hours...yes prepare this

Hold person... yes please... auto crits for the rogue

Spiritual weapon... yes bonus action

Healing word yes bonus action

Protection from evil... I fight lots of demons and undead

So IMO, wisdom

And forget MAM, 15+3+2= 20AC not bad but very pricy when breastplate and shield is AC18
One thing you may have overlooked. My STR is 12, and Chainmail requires an STR of 13 to avoid encumbrance. That, along with all the Heavy Armor giving disadvantage to stealth is what has me looking at upgrading from Light to Medium and ignoring Heavy.

I know that in this edition, the slow increases to proficiency makes small bonuses matter. Going from 17 to 18 AC will matter, which can be done without feats. Being able to go to a full 20 AC without tying up a spell slots on a spell that will likely fade on any damage received would be very nice. I get that the problem with this is not that Medium Armor Mastery is not good, but that Feats are so expensive that good is not good enough. If I am not going to take the small but important increase to my primary stat, then I need to be getting something significantly better in comparison. Such as increasing the odds against losing Concentration Spells early.

Shield of Faith I have not been using, preferring to use Bless on the nastier fights. That +1d4 to hit and saves has been very helpful. I may add it to my prepared list and see how that works out.

[Dalebert]

Con: Considered a weaker feat. Is a +1 AC bonus and stealth worth it delaying a Wis increase or Warcaster?

No. Can't believe I never responded to this. Just my opinion but I can't imagine wasting a feat for those things. There are just better ways to get those things. You might even find magical armor or some Boots of Elvenkind. I'd just take a small hit on armor to not have disadvantage on stealth and maybe try to get magic armor when you can.