Discussing PO High Level Wizardry

[Buufreak]

Inspired by the conversation started by Gruftzwerg, I'd like to know of how close to T1 we can get with practical usages of Wizards. Use of Chameleon to feat shuffle until all spells are learnt has been covered, as well as a dip of Geometer for lowering the cost of spells being added to your book (credit to Crake).

Zanos added a comprehensive breakdown of how to fill a Blessed Book, and how it would only factor in as a single digit percentage of 20th WBL.

What other uses can be practically done that will not result in players rolling eyes and DMs throwing books?

[ryu]

Collegiate wizard, elven generalist, and if allowed domain wizard will all be of great help in expanding versatility and power.

To make use of all the spell knowledge you're shoving into your head and book take spontaneous divination followed by versatile spellcaster. Absolutely huge number of spells and you barely have to have a generally good idea of what to prepare to be batman in every situation. Justice league unlimited batman. AKA: The guy whose plans to combat other league members singlehandedly incapacity every other league member. ALL of them.

[Crake]

A somewhat silly solution is to simply have a wizard cohort. Sure you'll only get access to extra spells of a single level lower than you can normally cast, but for those spell levels your spell knowledge practically doubles.

Another alternative is to have an artificer cohort, who can literally craft any spell scroll you could possibly want at a whim. If you get all the various item crafting feats on him, you can drop the gp and xp costs down a fair amount, both reducing the cost of the scrolls you will need to make, as well as the cost of "scribing" by reducing the cost of the blessed book that he will inevitably be the one crafting. If time is a factor, a quill of scrivening (i think that's what they're called) from the DMG2 reduces scribing time to 10 minutes, though the artificer cohort is still only crafting 1 scroll a day. Can also be done at level 14+ with a warlock cohort.

I don't know if those fit into the scope of this thread though, since they require external help, and leadership is generally seen as pretty broken.

[Buufreak]

I don't know if those fit into the scope of this thread though, since they require external help, and leadership is generally seen as pretty broken.

While that is true, I think it belongs. It helps the discussion to potentially find a happy medium between the strictest DM beating down on the lowest op of Wizard, and the completely unbound TO Wizard.

[Zanos]

The Easybake Wizard is probably useful here. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12336.0)

[Gruftzwerg]

thx for making the thread buufreak. I was intending the same after the other (Lord Drako) thread got deleted.

I would like to add the fact that under normal circumstances I would assume that for most higher lvl spells (that the wizard didn't pick up on lvlUp) the wizard should be paying the cost for a scroll to get access to it (if he doesn't find em by luck).

High lvl wizards are not at every corner with a big sign pointing at them and willing to share their spells like they where to many duplicates of trading cards. Most of the times it will presumable be a magic item vendor wizard who will want to sell his scrolls:

PC wizard: may I have a look at the "xxx"-spell?
NPC wizard vendor: buy the scroll !

The reason why most wizards are to shy to share their spells with others is the risk that it involves to show someone else his spellbook. I mean, how you are going to prevent that the other wizard just steals your book (teleport away or knock you out while you grab your book out of your inventory)? It takes much effort to prevent something like that. And if the other wizard doesn't trust you fully and isn't your best friend, you'll needs to pay at least for the spells needed for the protection + some profit/spell.

Since it is hard to guess how lucky the wizard will be in finding some of the desired spells due to adventures, I think it would be best to have a min. and a max. cost calculation. The difference would be full scroll costs for all additional spells (beside from lvlUp).

[Buufreak]

The Easybake Wizard is probably useful here. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12336.0)

Yup, that's a good thing to have here. Much obliged.


thx for making the thread buufreak. I was intending the same after the other (Lord Drako) thread got deleted.

No prob, bob.


I think it would be best to have a min. and a max. cost calculation. The difference would be full scroll costs for all additional spells (beside from lvlUp).

For that, we need only look at the Tippyverse, home of all things possible at the lowest possible prices, or at least that is how I understood the setting. Found here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy

Basically, its what happens when magic is the primary thought of the setting, and not the after thought. After millennia of people killing people and city-states developing, they perfected the means of producing any kind of resource and commodity. This should include magic items, scrolls, etc.

[ryu]

Also if you're doing it properly you most likely aren't buying scrolls. You're renting someone else's book to scribe from. Much cheaper. Of course if you FIND scrolls they're still valuable.

[Gruftzwerg]

Also if you're doing it properly you most likely aren't buying scrolls. You're renting someone else's book to scribe from. Much cheaper. Of course if you FIND scrolls they're still valuable.

as pointed out above in my post: I don't thing it's that easy to rent someone else's book. Look at the risks that I described. I don't think you can presume you'll find so many other high lvl wizards who fully put their trust into you and rent you their beloved book.

I mean, if a random NPC would come to your PC wizard and would ask if he can rent your book for 1 day. What would you do?

[Buufreak]

as pointed out above in my post: I don't thing it's that easy to rent someone else's book. Look at the risks that I described. I don't think you can presume you'll find so many other high lvl wizards who fully put their trust into you and rent you their beloved book.

I mean, if a random NPC would come to your PC wizard and would ask if he can rent your book for 1 day. What would you do?

That is assuming rentals from an individual. More than likely, which a fair few people cite, you will be visiting a mage college or similar, which is sure to be filled with a plethora of spells. Given, there is no promise of high level spells, for reasons like which you have given, but easily any spell that is within level limits of what is common for the world. IE, if the playing field is filled with up to level ten wizards, schools will have tons from 0-3, a fair few 4s, and a bit fewer 5s.

[Gruftzwerg]

That is assuming rentals from an individual. More than likely, which a fair few people cite, you will be visiting a mage college or similar, which is sure to be filled with a plethora of spells. Given, there is no promise of high level spells, for reasons like which you have given, but easily any spell that is within level limits of what is common for the world. IE, if the playing field is filled with up to level ten wizards, schools will have tons from 0-3, a fair few 4s, and a bit fewer 5s.

What is common for the world?
- Up to the DM.

Since there are so and so DMs, we can't say how many "free to copy spells" the wizard would have access to. That's why I suggested a minimal and a maximal cost calculation, to have an overview of all possibilities.

[Zanos]

The books say NPC wizards are willing to grant access to spells for X cost. You can pretty easily argue that anything isn't available because it's up to the DM.

[ryu]

as pointed out above in my post: I don't thing it's that easy to rent someone else's book. Look at the risks that I described. I don't think you can presume you'll find so many other high lvl wizards who fully put their trust into you and rent you their beloved book.

I mean, if a random NPC would come to your PC wizard and would ask if he can rent your book for 1 day. What would you do?

You couldn't threaten my book if you tried even assuming I let you hold it. It's an aleax after all.

[Khedrac]

Zanos added a comprehensive breakdown of how to fill a Blessed Book, and how it would only factor in as a single digit percentage of 20th WBL.
The problem with this one (and all the item creation tricks for cheap equipment) is that they are based on a mis-reading of WBL.

WBL is not the cost of a character's assets, it is how much they are worth.

So, what's the difference? Well, let's look at a wizard's spells - starting at level 1 (core only for simplicity).

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice.A level 1 wizard receives a free spellbook containing all 0th-level spells. Cost to a new character: 0.
However, said spellbook can be sold (in theory) for 50gp/page (plus half the 15gp cost of the book) - and those "free" 0th-level spells take up 19 pages.
The book also contains three 1st-level spells, plus one per point of Int bonus; let's assume 14 Int for 5 1st-level spells - that's now 24 pages.

This free spellbook has a selling price of 1,207gp 5sp
Since most items (pretty much all except for cursed items and jewellery) have a value (i.e. what they would cost to buy) of double the selling price the free book has a value of 2,415gp.
(Looks like no 1st-level wizard actually has appropriate WBL by the book.)

Now the value of the spells in a wizard's spellbook, is given as a flat value, it's not set to "half the cost of the inks needed to scribe the spells" even though it equals that. This means the spells in a Boccob's Blessed Book also have a value of 100gp/page (twice their sell price).

So, if WBL is correctly assessed as the value of belongings, not what they would cost to buy and scribe into, then the full Boccob's Blessed Book is worth far more than the empty one, and all those spells still count for WBL.

Similarly if you make an item its 'worth' is still the full price, even though the character spends less gold. In play this should not be a problem, the character has spent a feat and some experience to get some extra gold. If building a new character of level "N" then either they should calculate WBL using the value of the items, or (especially if starting at the start of the level xp-wise) they should start a level behind having deducted the xp spent crafting...

Oh, and feat swapping shenanigans only qualify as practical optimisation with a tolerant DM. Most DMs will, I think, laugh at you and say "no".

[Zanos]

Items are worth their cost. PCs sell for less because they are secondary resellers, not dedicated merchants.

Otherwise you're suggesting that everyone's effective wealth is halved. Which is not how the books say how to generate higher level characters.

[Telok]

This free spellbook has a selling price of 1,207gp 5sp
Since most items (pretty much all except for cursed items and jewellery) have a value (i.e. what they would cost to buy) of double the selling price the free book has a value of 2,415gp.

Hmm... Thought experiment. A basic wizard who only scribes the spells he gets at level up, what's his spellbook worth? We'll take Khedrac's number of 2400ish for the first level wizard's spellbook as a starting point.

L2: 2600
L3: 3000
L4: 3400
L5: 4000
L6: 4600
L7: 5400
L8: 6200
L9: 7200
L10: 8200
L11: 9400 & 94 pages filled.

Now this no-OP wiz has barely more spells known than a sorcerer (other than cantrips and first level spells) and at level 5 that spellbook is still half of his WBL. By 11th it's down to 1/7 of WBL but it's a pretty minimal selection. Lets see what happens if he buys some spells.

L2: 2600 + 2 more spells: = 2800
L3: 3200 + 2 more spells: = 4000
L4: 4400 + 2 more spells: = 4800
L5: 5400 + 2 more spells: = 6000
L6: 6600 + 2 more spells: = 7200
L7: 8000 + 2 more spells: = 8800
L8: 9600 + 2 more spells: = 10,400
L9: 11,400 + 2 more spells: = 12,400
L10: 13,400 + 2 more spells: = 14,400
L11: 15,600 + 2 more spells: = 16,800

Well he's got 8 spells per level generally, 9 firsts, and 4 sixths. That's a decent selection of spells but at 5th level the book alone is 2/3 his WBL, by 11th level it's still 1/4 his total WBL. So if someone is trying to stick to WBL and is counting the spellbook the wizards in the group ought to have no other gear until level 4 when they can have 600 gp worth of stuff. Of course none of this is counting actually paying for the spells either, it's just the value of the book(s).

[Crake]

Yeah, see, the wizard's "free" spellbook and spells is a class feature, not part of his wealth by level. And if you calculate a wizard's spellbook from his wealth by level as merely the 100gp cost of scribing per page, then that actually makes spell scribing CHEAPER because you no longer have to take into account the scroll or the rental fees, right? Not a very good way to consider things If you ask me.

Wealth by level is a representation of what you could do with said money, there is even a paragraph outlining that a player can spend part of their starting wealth and xp to create magic items of their own, so, if you were so inclined to come in at a lower xp level, you could increase your holdings by a proportionate amount. If I have a blessed book, I no longer need to spend 100gp per page to scribe my spells, so I no longer need to deduct that from my wealth by level either.

[Gruftzwerg]

Yeah, see, the wizard's "free" spellbook and spells is a class feature, not part of his wealth by level.
On second thought I guess you are right here. Cause otherwise other prc who give "free items" wouldn't make any sense. What would be the point of not paying for something if it would still count against wealth balance?


And if you calculate a wizard's spellbook from his wealth by level as merely the 100gp cost of scribing per page, then that actually makes spell scribing CHEAPER because you no longer have to take into account the scroll or the rental fees, right? Not a very good way to consider things If you ask me.
I don't get why the scroll or rental fees shouldn't apply anymore? You need either a blueprint or the actual spell memorized to scribe a spell (the latter applies when you lose your book and try to make a new one with the spells you still have memorized).


Wealth by level is a representation of what you could do with said money, there is even a paragraph outlining that a player can spend part of their starting wealth and xp to create magic items of their own, so, if you were so inclined to come in at a lower xp level, you could increase your holdings by a proportionate amount. If I have a blessed book, I no longer need to spend 100gp per page to scribe my spells, so I no longer need to deduct that from my wealth by level either.

That's the deal, like most other rules, character wealth balance can be bend and even legally cheated. Like a bag of holding is cheating your carrying capacity, a blessed book seems to be legit way to cheat spell inscribing cost.
But they may not be available in every setting. The DM should think of the availability of magic ahead, before the adventure starts and tell all his PC so that they can play/plan according to it.

In a limited magic setting a DM could deny a Blessed Book for to powerful, while in a "Wands & Wizards" campaing, they may throw them at you, just because you asked. The DM could adjust the powerlvl of the wizard with this a little (depending on the group/campaign).

And one question that always bothers me with "to easy access to" high end magic items is: When there are high lvl crafter = caster, why the campaign sticks to the low lvl jerks, in other words the PC adventuring group, to "save the world"?^^

[Telok]

And one question that always bothers me with "to easy access to" high end magic items is: When there are high lvl crafter = caster, why the campaign sticks to the low lvl jerks, in other words the PC adventuring group, to "save the world"?^^

The 12+ level casters who spend so much time making hundreds of magic rings that sell for 2000 gp or less are a topic for another thread. Along with all the 2100 population towns that have 500+ of scrolls of 8th level spells for sale.