Sapphire hierarch build

[Blu]

So recently i read about this amazing PrC and i think i fell in love with it. So i'm wondering what could a build be for my next table.
What i made up so far:

Race: Azurin(extra Essentia and feats sounds nice) - Any other good race?

Entry: Cleric 3/Incarnate 2 - Still dont know the best order, would cloistered cleric be good option(but making me kinda of divine power dependent on combat)?

After going through Cleric 3/Incarnate 2/Sapphire hierarch 10 - would another PrC fit in here or just straight cleric levels?

Feats: the DMM[Persist] route - any more ideas for feats?

Besides that i also have some questions about:
Turning: How to get a lot of turning(without nightstick abuse)?
Domains: Not much of a clue... Maybe incarnium and Law/Strenght/War - any ideas?

Edit: Just forgot, Sapphire has the Law domain has a requirement... So definitely need that one.

Edit2: For the background in a nutshell, I was thinking of a cleric that was struck by a powerfull spell, along with his platoon, during a battle, and for some misfortune, his companions souls were locked inside him. Even tough he doesn't seek revenge, he firmly believes that magic should have a leash, so that it is not used for wars, maybe evitating similar accidents in the future.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You can't be a LG sapphire hierarch, at least not on an incarnate base. If an incarnate becomes true neutral or any of the 4 extremes, he loses the ability to shape soulmelds until he returns to a compatible alignment. So VoP and saint are just right out.

If you're not with a god, travel domain so you can swap it for travel devotion is a popular option.

[Blu]

You can't be a LG sapphire hierarch, at least not on an incarnate base. If an incarnate becomes true neutral or any of the 4 extremes, he loses the ability to shape soulmelds until he returns to a compatible alignment. So VoP and saint are just right out.

Oh, forgot about the extreme aspect. Thanks for the advice.


If you're not with a god, travel domain so you can swap it for travel devotion is a popular option.

Travel devotion seems tempting, move and full attack or move and full round action...

[Nifft]

For race, Silverbrow Human (from Dragon Magic) gives you access to the soulmelds in Dragon Magic.

IMHO it's almost always better to go Cloistered than regular Cleric. If your DM will allow it, then assume I'm always saying "Cloistered Cleric".

Totemist 2 / Cleric 3 / Sapphire Hierarch is also fun, and might be a better fit in a low-magic campaign -- especially if you're considering VoP. Totemist + VoP is actually playable, and with Cleric casting added in, it's one of the stronger uses of VoP.

Not sure about Saint -- no-one ever used that in any of my games.

Domains: to get into Sapphire Hierarch, you MUST have the Law domain. So you have one other domain to choose. (If you play a Cloistered Cleric, you get Law + Knowledge + one choice.) I like Travel as a domain, but War can be good if you can take that War-domain [Reserve] feat in Complete Champion.

After you graduate from Sapphire Hierarch, you should definitely go for a PrC of some kind. 5 levels of Legacy Champion from Weapons of Legacy (extending the class features of Sapphire Hierarch) is pretty good, but your DM may throw heavy objects at you. Really though, any of the usual Cleric suspects are probably fine: Thaumaturgist, Contemplative, Sacred Exorcist, Divine Oracle, Ordained Champion, etc. Depends what you want your character to do.

[Blu]

Totemist 2 / Cleric 3 / Sapphire Hierarch is also fun, and might be a better fit in a low-magic campaign -- especially if you're considering VoP. Totemist + VoP is actually playable, and with Cleric casting added in, it's one of the stronger uses of VoP.

For Sapphire and incarnate, i need to be LN... So no VoP here :/

[Particle_Man]

If you don't mind waiting a long time before you can bind things (spells are awesome for this but you have to wait), you can get into SH one level early.

For example:

Take Human (if your DM gives you a break on favoured class, take Azurin).

Take the Incarnum and Law domains as Cleric. This gives you Incarnate Spellcasting (1 essentia point).

If human (and not Azurin): Take Midnight Metamagic and Extend Spell at 1st level and bonus human feats. This gives you 1 essentia point and something to do with it at level 1 (nice to summon a lawful critter at level 1 that pretty much lasts for the whole combat, instead of just 1 round).

Stay in Cleric from levels 1 to 3. At 3rd level take Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt is nice).

At 4th level take your first level of Incarnate. This adds 2 soulmelds (total 3) and 1 essentia point (total 3). Assuming you buy the skill points you need, you can get into SH at character level 5.

If you want to be LG you can do something similar with Duskling and totemist to get cleric 3/totemist 1/SH 10

[Blu]

If you don't mind waiting a long time before you can bind things (spells are awesome for this but you have to wait), you can get into SH one level early.

For example:

Take Human (if your DM gives you a break on favoured class, take Azurin).

Take the Incarnum and Law domains as Cleric. This gives you Incarnate Spellcasting (1 essentia point).

If human (and not Azurin): Take Midnight Metamagic and Extend Spell at 1st level and bonus human feats. This gives you 1 essentia point and something to do with it at level 1 (nice to summon a lawful critter at level 1 that pretty much lasts for the whole combat, instead of just 1 round).

Stay in Cleric from levels 1 to 3. At 3rd level take Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt is nice).

At 4th level take your first level of Incarnate. This adds 2 soulmelds (total 3) and 1 essentia point (total 3). Assuming you buy the skill points you need, you can get into SH at character level 5.

In this scenario, I basically trade a feat(Shape soulmeld) to get to SH early... Sounds interesting. Is there another PrC that progresses divine spellcasting and meldshaping? I kinda like the binding part of the build. Another sad part is not having the charkas available.

[Nifft]

For Sapphire and incarnate, i need to be LN... So no VoP here :/ True.

However, the point still stands: in a low-equipment campaign, a Totemist can be pretty great.


In this scenario, I basically trade a feat(Shape soulmeld) to get to SH early... Sounds interesting. Is there another PrC that progresses divine spellcasting and meldshaping? I kinda like the binding part of the build. Another sad part is not having the charkas available.

You get most of your chakras opened using spells. As a Cleric, you get Open Least/Lesser/Greater Chakra on your list, so you can use them as needed. (Thus, getting more spellcasting is pure win for you.) Heart & Soul can be opened with very high-level feats, if you want them.

Some people argue that the Shape Soulmeld feat gives you an extra binding slot.

[Blu]

True.

However, the point still stands: in a low-equipment campaign, a Totemist can be pretty great.

Agree with you on that.




You get most of your chakras opened using spells. As a Cleric, you get Open Least/Lesser/Greater Chakra on your list, so you can use them as needed. (Thus, getting more spellcasting is pure win for you.) Heart & Soul can be opened with very high-level feats, if you want them.

Some people argue that the Shape Soulmeld feat gives you an extra binding slot.

Sadly, the duration is fixed(so no extending that) so ill have to expend spell slots to binding chakras :smallfrown:
Btw what are the feats to open Heart & Soul chakras?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sadly, the duration is fixed(so no extending that) so ill have to expend spell slots to binding chakras :smallfrown:

Open chakra spells are 24 hour duration. That's really not so bad.


Btw what are the feats to open Heart & Soul chakras?

Epic feats; MoI pg 213.

[Blu]

The only thing that sadden's me is that after the SH, i have to choose between more caster levels or more binding(obvious answer).
Thanks for the advice! :smallbiggrin:

Do you have any advice on increasing my turn attempts for fuelling DMM?

[Kelb_Panthera]

The only thing that sadden's me is that after the SH, i have to choose between more caster levels or more binding(obvious answer).
Thanks for the advice! :smallbiggrin:

Unless you really expect to both survive until and continue playing past level 16, a rarity as I understand it, that's probably not much of a concern.


Do you have any advice on increasing my turn attempts for fuelling DMM?

Standard fillers work fine; nightsticks (good luck), the extra turning feat, undeadth domain (through contemplative in CD), reliquary holy symbol in MiC, etc.

[Particle_Man]

In this scenario, I basically trade a feat(Shape soulmeld) to get to SH early... Sounds interesting. Is there another PrC that progresses divine spellcasting and meldshaping? I kinda like the binding part of the build. Another sad part is not having the charkas available.

Maybe the PrC Legacy Champion, listed above, can be interpreted as advancing the SH stuff, including spellcasting and meldshaping levels?

Yeah losing the bind is a choice, but with incarnate 2 it is only a crown chakra, so only a few soulmelds fit there anyhow (and they are generally not as powerful as more "inward" chakras). Even a cleric 3/incarnate 7/SH 10 only has crown, feat and hands chakras opened.

At least with the spells you will eventually get more choice of chakras (and thus bindings).

Of course if you want all the chakras, one could just be a LN incarnate 20 that serves the Sapphire Hierarchs (they are listed as having such servants). You would have a lot of the fluff, but none of the SH mechanics.

Now totemist 2 is different as that totem chakra is flexible and any totemist soulmeld fit it. So the duskling cleric 3/totemist 2/SH is an option (allowing more choice of alignment too)

So yeah it is all about tradeoffs and choices.

[Troacctid]

Some people argue that the Shape Soulmeld feat gives you an extra binding slot.
I don't think anybody argues that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Some people argue that the Shape Soulmeld feat gives you an extra binding slot.


I don't think anybody argues that.

Oh, definitely not.

The controversial topic is whether the open chakra feats gives you an extra bind or not.

[Dagroth]

Extra Turning Feat
Undeath Domain
+Cha item

I like getting the Planning Domain for Extend Spell. A Human Cleric can get Planning Domain, Persist Spell & Divine Metamagic at Cleric 1. With a half-way decent Cha, you're Persisting right off the bat.

As a Silverbrow Human, you qualify for the Practical Metamagic feat at level 6 (need Spellcraft 8) to reduce the slot cost of one metamagic feat by 1). If your GM allows Dragon Magazine stuff, you can get Easy Metamagic to do the same thing also. Going from needing 7 turns to Persist down to 5 turns is very significant.

[noce]

Could you guys elaborate on incarnate vs totemist entry?
I would like to know pros and cons :)

Pro for incarnate is losing a single caster level and early entry. A con could be alignment set to LN.

Pro for totemist is that getting totem could be quite good, but I fear most totem binds just give you a bonus natural attack, don't they?

For a classical cleric chassis which soulmelds are better, incarnate or totemist?
I looked for a specific sapphire hierarch handbook, without success. :)

[Blu]

Could you guys elaborate on incarnate vs totemist entry?
I would like to know pros and cons :)

I think the basic idea is:
Totemist is good for low magic item campagin, since he can make is weapons anyway and improve the damage of said weapons, besides the variety of totem binds he as available.

Incarnate is more of a thematic/utility entry, maybe using incarnate weapons plus incarnate avatar for some powerfull combat while using the other soulmelds for utility/defence.

[Nifft]

I don't think anybody argues that.


Oh, definitely not.

The controversial topic is whether the open chakra feats gives you an extra bind or not. Ah, thanks for the correction.

Perhaps what I recalled about the Shape Soulmeld controversy was whether it gives you an extra shaping slot (not binding slot).

For Sapphire Hierarch, both controversies are highly relevant, since even one Open ___ Chakra feats can save you a spell cast every day -- if it also gives you an increase in binding slots, that's huge.


Could you guys elaborate on incarnate vs totemist entry?
I would like to know pros and cons :)

Pro for incarnate is losing a single caster level and early entry. A con could be alignment set to LN.

Pro for totemist is that getting totem could be quite good, but I fear most totem binds just give you a bonus natural attack, don't they?

For a classical cleric chassis which soulmelds are better, incarnate or totemist?
I looked for a specific sapphire hierarch handbook, without success. :)

Totemists are very physical, and somewhat less skill-oriented. They can get a large number of melee attacks, and this works very nicely in combo with Cleric spells like Divine Power and Divine Favor. Melee Clerics are monsters at mid-level, and melee Totemists are monsters at all levels above 1. It's a brutal combo.

Incarnates give you more class features. Stuff like Uncanny Dodge + Evasion, or a big boost to Use Magic Device, or (with a feat) you get one free zombie at a time, or you get to boost the save DC for your Illusion spells. Great if you're able to find ways to boost the tactics that you plan to use, but it's not as straight-forward as what a Totemist does.

[Particle_Man]

Ah, thanks for the correction.

Perhaps what I recalled about the Shape Soulmeld controversy was whether it gives you an extra shaping slot (not binding slot).



Well since one could take cleric 3 and take shape soulmeld, and since multi-class incarnate/totemists "stack" their shaping slots (subject to the con limit on shaping slots) I would treat it as an extra shaping slot but not an incarnate or totemist shaping slot (so you don't get any bonuses that incarnates get with their shaping slots, nor can you ever bind your shaped soulmeld to the totem if you are a totemist).

But for this (and for the Open Chakra feat binding question), ask your DM.

FWIW, the cleric/incarnate/SH gets a few more essentia than the cleric/totemist/SH.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Perhaps what I recalled about the Shape Soulmeld controversy was whether it gives you an extra shaping slot (not binding slot).

There's no controversy around shape soulmeld, as far as I know. It's use is quite clear; pick a soulmeld, you can now shape that soulmeld in addition to whatever soulmelds, if any, you can normally shape but at a ML equal to half your HD. That's it. It doesn't create any extra chakras to shape to, it doesn't give you any binds.

I suppose it could be argued that, if you're already a meldshaper, that it simply adds a soulmeld to the list of melds you can shape but that creates nonsensical results; primarily having 3 different results depending on factors in your build, unlike pretty much any other feat.