Just how broken is True Polymorph?

[Dalebert]

So I was in my first game where this actually came up and we had to deal with it. My understanding at the time of True Polymorph was that the creature's statistics completely replace your own other than alignment and personality. So I took that to mean all your class features are replaced and thus unusable.

But lots of people don't interpret it that way and last night I realized why. There's a paragraph about the creature being limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form and spellcasting is given as an example. Well why include such a paragraph if you have only the statistics of the new form? Obviously, you can do whatever that creature can normally do. This paragraph is explaining how to handle other actions. What could it be referring to if not abilities you retained from before the change?

We all got polymorphed into devas except the caster who was high enough to be a planetar. These creatures all have the physical properties needed to exploit any particular class feature that humanoids have. They just also have a lot of other cool stuff. This is how we beat Tiamat. I'm not sure we would have won without this change.

[Coffee_Dragon]

"We decided to break the game, how broken is that?"

It's very broken.

[jaappleton]

You fought Tiamat.

You fought a God. Ok? Let that sink in.

....spells are supposed to be a bit game breaking at that level, y'know?

[DracoKnight]

You fought Tiamat.

You fought a God. Ok? Let that sink in.

....spells are supposed to be a bit game breaking at that level, y'know?

This. Exactly this. 9th level spells are supposed to be world altering. They are the highest level of power that a mortal can attain, and some of them can be used to break free of mortality. The fact that a spell can allow a group of people to fight a god and win shows that the designers achieved their goal. 9th level spells allowed you to alter the world by killing Tiamat. 9th level spells aren't supposed to be balanced, they're supposed to be the best.

[NecroDancer]

I personally would have become a Kirin to get 9th level spellcasting.

But congrats on the victory I bet it was epic.

[Vaz]

Androsphinx for Legendary Reaction spellcasting, teleport, and immunity to nonmagical weapons. True Polymorph into a Kirin for the rest of the abilities as necessary.

[Millstone85]

My understanding at the time of True Polymorph was that the creature's statistics completely replace your own other than alignment and personality. So I took that to mean all your class features are replaced and thus unusable.Going by tweets, that's the game designers' understanding too.


Well why include such a paragraph if you have only the statistics of the new form?To emphasize the first sentence through examples, in a very clumsy and counterproductive way.


9th level spells are supposed to be world altering.The spell certainly invites some kind of epic rebirth for the character.

[SharkForce]

So I was in my first game where this actually came up and we had to deal with it. My understanding at the time of True Polymorph was that the creature's statistics completely replace your own other than alignment and personality. So I took that to mean all your class features are replaced and thus unusable.

But lots of people don't interpret it that way and last night I realized why. There's a paragraph about the creature being limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form and spellcasting is given as an example. Well why include such a paragraph if you have only the statistics of the new form? Obviously, you can do whatever that creature can normally do. This paragraph is explaining how to handle other actions. What could it be referring to if not abilities you retained from before the change?

We all got polymorphed into devas except the caster who was high enough to be a planetar. These creatures all have the physical properties needed to exploit any particular class feature that humanoids have. They just also have a lot of other cool stuff. This is how we beat Tiamat. I'm not sure we would have won without this change.

why give it as an example? because in previous editions (and potentially still in this edition) there were spells that give other people spellcasting. (well, ok, mostly there was *a* spell that did that). also to keep you from activating wands if you turn into a creature that can cast one innate spell. i think there are one or two wands that can be attuned by someone who isn't of a specific class, but is a spellcaster.

all of your class features *are* replaced when you get true polymorphed.

[Shining Wrath]

This use is not how I read the spell. However, sounds like you had fun, which is important.

I'd also point out that RAW, you can true polymorph a creature into any object, including one that has never existed before. For example, polymorph a nearby ant into a weapon +200 against Tiamat (or any of her aspects), and giving the bearer permanent Haste so long as they are fighting her. Stuff like that is RAW, but not RAI.

[Dalebert]

Thank you, folks. The core of my question was about whether you keep class features. So it's broken but not THAT broken. I'm glad to hear it. I dread having to run games with a mechanic like that.

So we played it wrong. We had deva rogues, paladins, fighters, etc. doing their regular dmg plus an extra 4d8 radiant plus having extra attack when they normally don't and stuff like that. I still think it would have helped us win if for no more than having lots of resistance to dmg and magic and all the extra hp but it would have gone very differently. Frankly it would have been a more interesting fight that way. Instead we beat her down fairly quickly.

Meanwhile, my character remains a deva for now. I can't see him being willing to take dmg just to drop to zero and change back so I'll just play him kind of aggressively for a while and let it happen naturally.

[SharkForce]

iirc, there's a dev clarification that it is intended that once it is permanent, the only way to get rid of it is by dispel magic or similar.

YMMV, of course.

[Dalebert]

Frankly, "intended" ain't enough. It should be in the spell description if that's the case. Is this actually in the errata?

[SharkForce]

Frankly, "intended" ain't enough. It should be in the spell description if that's the case. Is this actually in the errata?

according to jeremy crawford, it is in the books.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/13/true-polymorph-rock-into-baby-dragon/

haven't actually been able to track down an errata document with this information though, so if it is in the books it hasn't been released as errata yet as far as i can tell.

[Millstone85]

In the printing I have (2nd to 5th, I guess) the spell reads as such:
The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation lasts until it is dispelled.

I initially assumed that "until it is dispelled" only overrode the duration, but it might also replace the 0 hit points and death clauses. Stuck as a dragon's corpse until dispelled?

[Unoriginal]

They are the highest level of power that a mortal can attain

Technically, all the 17th-20th level features are supposed to be this.

[Spiritchaser]

Technically, all the 17th-20th level features are supposed to be this.

This is why pure martials in my current campaign will get legendary saves at this level...

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Note that you do keep class features with the Shapechange spell. A Bladesinging Pit Fiend is really rather impressive.

[Dalebert]

Just realized another huge drawback to this spell. You will likely become unattuned to many of your items and have to reattune when you change back. This is is also true for the 4th level Polymorph spell so keep that in mind before you start zapping yourself or friends into giant apes to wollap on baddies. Just make sure you have a chance for a short rest afterward.

I think a lot of the abuse of this spell is from this (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/11/03/if-i-true-polymorphs-into-adult-silver-dragon-can-i-cast-spells-after-shapeshifting-back/). I think Mearls is dead wrong here.


according to jeremy crawford, it is in the books.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/13/true-polymorph-rock-into-baby-dragon/


That tweet doesn't address this question. It only addresses whether it can be dispelled which it obviously can per the description. It didn't address whether dropping the creature to 0 hp would also end the effect. If you have a tweet where Crawford says that, I would find it very interesting.


I initially assumed that "until it is dispelled" only overrode the duration, but it might also replace the 0 hit points and death clauses. Stuck as a dragon's corpse until dispelled?

I understand that interpretation now that you put it that way though I'm still not sure I interpret it that way.


Note that you do keep class features with the Shapechange spell. A Bladesinging Pit Fiend is really rather impressive.

Yes, but that's a limited duration caster-only effect. The thing with TP is if it did that, you can basically just upgrade the entire party into really powerful forms. If they didn't give up their other features, it gets quite silly.

[Millstone85]

Just realized another huge drawback to this spell. You will likely become unattuned to many of your items and have to reattune when you change back. This is is also true for the 4th level Polymorph spell so keep that in mind before you start zapping yourself or friends into giant apes to wollap on baddies. Just make sure you have a chance for a short rest afterward.What if you let your gear meld into your new form? It should be in stasis along with the form it is attuned to.


It didn't address whether dropping the creature to 0 hp would also end the effect. If you have a tweet where Crawford says that, I would find it very interesting.Well, I have one from Mearls (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/520355269272817664?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw).

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Just realized another huge drawback to this spell. You will likely become unattuned to many of your items and have to reattune when you change back. This is is also true for the 4th level Polymorph spell so keep that in mind before you start zapping yourself or friends into giant apes to wollap on baddies. Just make sure you have a chance for a short rest afterward.

...Why? There is absolutely nothing in the spell description to suggest that. It's also worth noting that
In most cases, a magic item that's meant to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer.and it is further stated that exceptions to this are 'rare' and that it is quite possible for nonhumanoids to equip most items (the example given being placing a ring on a tentacle). So generally, not only will polymorph effects not mess with your magic items, but you may well be able to use the two in conjunction.


Yes, but that's a limited duration caster-only effect. The thing with TP is if it did that, you can basically just upgrade the entire party into really powerful forms. If they didn't give up their other features, it gets quite silly.
True enough.

[Dalebert]

...Why? There is absolutely nothing in the spell description to suggest that.

Because when you lose your class features, you lose the ability to be attuned to some of them; just the ones that have an attunement requirement, e.g. "You must be a fighter, paladin, or ranger to attune to this item." The DMG states that you immediately become unattuned to an item if you stop meeting the prerequisites for attunement.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Because when you lose your class features, you lose the ability to be attuned to some of them; just the ones that have an attunement requirement, e.g. "You must be a fighter, paladin, or ranger to attune to this item." The DMG states that you immediately become unattuned to an item if you stop meeting the prerequisites for attunement.

You lose your class features, not your class. A wizard polymorphed into a T-Rex is still a wizard, he still has all his wizard levels, he just can't do any of his wizard stuff right now.

[Dalebert]

One of the features of being a wizard is being able to attune to items that say "wizard only". You lose that. You don't get to be a T-Rex shooting fireballs from a Staff of Power with your little Trump hands.

[MrWesson22]

Use wish to cast simulacrum. Use your simulacrum's wish to wish that any creatures friendly to the wizard (and the wizard) who are shape changed or polymorphed maintain all class abilities, knowledge, and stats they previously had which are higher than the polymorphed form. Then true polymorph the whole party one at a time into CR20 forms while they retain all their level 20 stuff. Done. Game broken.

[Dalebert]

As long as we're side-tracking into the subject of other broken spells, the best ways to use Simulacrum are to dupe monks or warlocks since they can't recover spell slots. You can make a simulacrum of a 17th+ level lock and use his 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level mystic arcanums every day including more True Polymorphs. This is a great way for sorcerers to get TP since sorcerers get Wish and can get a free simulacrum every day without material components (neither the gold NOR the piece of the creature they want to dupe).

Warlocks also have all their invocations that don't use spell slots. That's another benny. You can have a warlock familiar with Witchsight giving you a heads up if they see anything fishy.

[Millstone85]

You don't get to be a T-Rex shooting fireballs from a Staff of Power with your little Trump hands.No but, like I said, if you let the staff meld into the T. rex, I see no reason you shouldn't be able to use the staff when you change back.

[Dalebert]

No but, like I said, if you let the staff meld into the T. rex, I see no reason you shouldn't be able to use the staff when you change back.

The reason is because you became unattuned to it the moment you turned into a T. rex and stopped being the class necessary for attunement.

[Millstone85]

The reason is because you became unattuned to it the moment you turned into a T. rex and stopped being the class necessary for attunement.But there no longer was a staff to lose attunement with. The staff turned into a T. rex too, the same one. If the staff still exists, so does the wizard.

[Dalebert]

But there no longer was a staff to lose attunement with. The staff turned into a T. rex too, the same one. If the staff still exists, so does the wizard.

I do see your point and I think that's a reasonable ruling. The thing is, I never suggested the wizard stopped existing. Obviously they both continue to exist but his features become unavailable and it specifically states in the DMG that if you stop meeting the requirements of attunement, you become unattuned.

The case for your ruling (and probably how I will rule as DM the more I think about it) is that the wizard became something that can't attuned but the staff also became something else; something that doesn't have an attunement requirement, i.e. a piece of a T. Rex. This allows both Polymorph and True Polymorph to be used sparingly but if you disrobe to turn into something else permanently, you may find yourself unable to attune to all your items.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

One of the features of being a wizard is being able to attune to items that say "wizard only". You lose that. You don't get to be a T-Rex shooting fireballs from a Staff of Power with your little Trump hands.

No, it isn't. 'Being a Wizard' is not a class feature, nor a part of your game statistics. It is not listed after Wizard class features, and thus is not lost with your class features. You are not actually a T-Rex, you remain a Wizard polymorphed into a T-Rex, as dispelling the effect will helpfully reveal. Truesight reveals your original self, thus showing that you are not a true example of whatever creature you assume the form of. You are still a member of your original class - A Warlock polymorphed does not cease to be bound to his Patron, a Sorcerer polymorphed does not suddenly lose his ancestry. Admittedly, this gets murky when making the polymorph permanent is considered, but that's so much of a DM judgement call thing I'm not going to take on. (You still don't get to be a T-Rex with a Staff of Power, because a T-Rex doesn't have useable arms, but that's beside the point.)

[Coffee_Dragon]

This is like a koan. First there is a wizard, then there isn't, then there is.

[Dalebert]

No, it isn't. 'Being a Wizard' is not a class feature, nor a part of your game statistics.

But you temporarily aren't a wizard. How are you a wizard if all of your game statistics are replaced with something else? You are temporarily a T. Rex or a planetar.

If this is not an example of it, what's a case where you would lose the ability to attune to certain items as the DMG describes and thus become unattuned?

[TheTeaMustFlow]

But you temporarily aren't a wizard. How are you a wizard if all of your game statistics are replaced with something else? You are temporarily a T. Rex or a planetar.

If this is not an example of it, what's a case where you would lose the ability to attune to certain items as the DMG describes and thus become unattuned?

Because, as I have said, being a Wizard isn't part of your game statistics, any more than a Warlock being bound to a patron or a Paladin bound to an oath is (though all these facts obviously have a great influence on one's game statistics when not polymorphed). By the same logic, you would have to accept that a Paladin who has been polymorphed may break his Oath without later consequence for the duration, or that a Cleric who has been polymorphed is for the time being entirely severed from his deity.

The typical example of losing the ability to attune to an item would be changing alignment and thus losing the ability to attune to an item that requires a particular alignment, such as a Sword of Answering. I cannot think of any RAW case where you would lose the ability to attune to a class-restricted item, though I suppose if a DM were to allow a character to change their class in-game for whatever reason that would count.

[Sigreid]

But you temporarily aren't a wizard. How are you a wizard if all of your game statistics are replaced with something else? You are temporarily a T. Rex or a planetar.

If this is not an example of it, what's a case where you would lose the ability to attune to certain items as the DMG describes and thus become unattuned?

Even if I were to accept your logic, some items require you to be a wizard to attune the item. There are no rules that say you must stay a wizard to remain attuned once that link is established. I think you're reaching too far for a down side.

[Millstone85]

Even if I were to accept your logic, some items require you to be a wizard to attune the item. There are no rules that say you must stay a wizard to remain attuned once that link is established. I think you're reaching too far for a down side.The rule exists.
A creature's attunement to an item ends if the creature no longer satisfies the prerequisites for attunement.

[Dalebert]

Because, as I have said, being a Wizard isn't part of your game statistics, any more than a Warlock being bound to a patron or a Paladin bound to an oath is (though all these facts obviously have a great influence on one's game statistics when not polymorphed). By the same logic, you would have to accept that a Paladin who has been polymorphed may break his Oath without later consequence for the duration, or that a Cleric who has been polymorphed is for the time being entirely severed from his deity.

Those are poor analogies. You just referenced factors that are external to the character like a patron or a deity. Maintaining those commitments don't require you to remain a certain class. Those are prerequisites to taking on a class; not features of the class. An oath might include respecting life. You can respect your oath in any form. You can avoid offending your god in any form so it doesn't demote you. That's all very different from explicit wording in the DMG that says you must BE a paladin to attune and explicit wording elsewhere that says if you stop meeting the requirements at any time you are immediately unattuned.

The item is not angry and rejecting you because you offended it. "Being a wizard" means understanding how to do wizard things like cast spells and use magic items that only wizards understand how to use. That's what attunement generally represents and you lose that when your mind becomes that of a not-wizard. The alignment restrictions are different obviously. Those are not about what you know how to do and you could remain attuned to those because your personality remains when you polymorph.

[Sigreid]

The rule exists.

I sit corrected.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Those are poor analogies. You just referenced factors that are external to the character like a patron or a deity. Maintaining those commitments don't require you to remain a certain class. Those are prerequisites to taking on a class; not features of the class. An oath might include respecting life. You can respect your oath in any form. You can avoid offending your god in any form so it doesn't demote you. That's all very different from explicit wording in the DMG that says you must BE a paladin to attune and explicit wording elsewhere that says if you stop meeting the requirements at any time you are immediately unattuned.A paladin's oath, a warlock's pact, or a cleric's devotion are not merely external to them. They may make reference to an external force or agency, and they may bind a character to such, but they are fundamental to what that character is, and a fundamental part of the class. The pact is what makes a warlock a warlock - if a warlock ceases to be a warlock when polymorphed, then they perforce cease to have a warlock's pact. The oath is what makes a paladin, the 'source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion' - if a paladin ceases to be a paladin when polymorphed, then they perforce cease to have a paladin's oath. And so on and so forth.

The item is not angry and rejecting you because you offended it. "Being a wizard" means understanding how to do wizard things like cast spells and use magic items that only wizards understand how to use. That's what attunement generally represents and you lose that when your mind becomes that of a not-wizard. The alignment restrictions are different obviously. Those are not about what you know how to do and you could remain attuned to those because your personality remains when you polymorph.Based on what? There's no explanation given for how attunement restrictions work. It could be that particular knowledge or training is required, but it could also be that the item is angry and rejecting you because you offended it, or because Boccob had a hissy-fit about fighters using staffs of the magi and rewrote the rules of magic to stop them from having nice things. And even if it is based on knowledge, there's nothing in any of the polymorph spells about losing knowledge - you don't forget who your friends or enemies are, even if you've changed into an insect too stupid to understand the concept of 'friend', and you retain alignment and personality even if you turn into an unintelligent construct that can possess neither. Certainly, your mental scores or arcana bonus might decrease, but they just as possibly might increase, say if you turn into a silver dragon or a pit fiend (and indeed, there's nothing stopping a 1 int orc becoming a wizard and casting polymorph spells which are just as effective as those cast by someone with 20 int). Such forms could quite easily be just as knowledgable about magic as a wizard. Besides that, we don't even know that the loss of class features when polymorphed necessarily comes from a loss of knowledge or understanding - it could just as easily be magical inteference from the spell, or Kord having a hissy fit over OP polymorphed wizards overshadowing fighters and demanding a nerf in exchange for Boccob class-locking staffs, or any other hand-wave you care to imagine. Basically, you're making a lot of assumptions here.

[Zene]

I'm curious, are there any creatures in the MM or Volo's that you could TP into, that can themselves cast TP or Wish?

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I'm curious, are there any creatures in the MM or Volo's that you could TP into, that can themselves cast TP or Wish?

Well, there are various ones capable of casting 9th level spells (such as the Lich, or Metallic Dragons which can use change shape to turn into an Archmage or Archdruid) that could theoretically prepare TP or Wish, I believe there are none that actually have either spell listed. Noble genies are stated to have access to both, but they're not actually statted.

[Unoriginal]

Those are poor analogies. You just referenced factors that are external to the character like a patron or a deity. Maintaining those commitments don't require you to remain a certain class. Those are prerequisites to taking on a class; not features of the class. An oath might include respecting life. You can respect your oath in any form. You can avoid offending your god in any form so it doesn't demote you. That's all very different from explicit wording in the DMG that says you must BE a paladin to attune and explicit wording elsewhere that says if you stop meeting the requirements at any time you are immediately unattuned.

The item is not angry and rejecting you because you offended it. "Being a wizard" means understanding how to do wizard things like cast spells and use magic items that only wizards understand how to use. That's what attunement generally represents and you lose that when your mind becomes that of a not-wizard. The alignment restrictions are different obviously. Those are not about what you know how to do and you could remain attuned to those because your personality remains when you polymorph.

An human Paladin or a Wizard transformed into a goblin would still be a Paladin or a Wizard. Why would becoming physically becoming a T-Rex be different?

[Dalebert]

An human Paladin or a Wizard transformed into a goblin would still be a Paladin or a Wizard. Why would becoming physically becoming a T-Rex be different?

It wouldn't be different if you're using TP to turn into a goblin because all of your statistics get replaced except alignment and personality. The goblin would no longer be a paladin or wizard. If they're using something like Alter Self to turn into a goblin, then it would be different because that spell doesn't replace all of your stats with the new form and you would still be a wizard with a (mostly but not completely) goblin body.

[Unoriginal]

It wouldn't be different if you're using TP to turn into a goblin because all of your statistics get replaced except alignment and personality. The goblin would no longer be a paladin or wizard. If they're using something like Alter Self to turn into a goblin, then it would be different because that spell doesn't replace all of your stats with the new form and you would still be a wizard with a (mostly but not completely) goblin body.

So you're saying that using TP means you lose all your knowledge, memories of your training, and professional experience?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

So I was in my first game where this actually came up and we had to deal with it. My understanding at the time of True Polymorph was that the creature's statistics completely replace your own other than alignment and personality. So I took that to mean all your class features are replaced and thus unusable.

But lots of people don't interpret it that way and last night I realized why. There's a paragraph about the creature being limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form and spellcasting is given as an example. Well why include such a paragraph if you have only the statistics of the new form? Obviously, you can do whatever that creature can normally do. This paragraph is explaining how to handle other actions. What could it be referring to if not abilities you retained from before the change?

We all got polymorphed into devas except the caster who was high enough to be a planetar. These creatures all have the physical properties needed to exploit any particular class feature that humanoids have. They just also have a lot of other cool stuff. This is how we beat Tiamat. I'm not sure we would have won without this change.

Maybe I am missing something. Who polymorphed how many people?

Keep in mind I'm not level 20 and have never been.

But the spell in my Players Hand Book says "Choose one creature or nonmagical object...."

And I'm thinking most casters only get soo many 9th level spells per day.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe I am missing something. Who polymorphed how many people?

Keep in mind I'm not level 20 and have never been.

But the spell in my Players Hand Book says "Choose one creature or nonmagical object...."

And I'm thinking most casters only get soo many 9th level spells per day.


No caster can cast more than one 9th level spell per day.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

No caster can cast more than one 9th level spell per day.

Maybe they all True Polymorphed eachother? It is possible to have a good number of characters with Level 9 True Polymorph.

That would be a very powerful party indeed!

[SharkForce]

Maybe I am missing something. Who polymorphed how many people?

Keep in mind I'm not level 20 and have never been.

But the spell in my Players Hand Book says "Choose one creature or nonmagical object...."

And I'm thinking most casters only get soo many 9th level spells per day.

true polymorph can be made permanent. he doesn't necessarily need to do it all in one day.


So you're saying that using TP means you lose all your knowledge, memories of your training, and professional experience?

well, you lose the ability to use your class abilities and such. presumably you still remember being able to do it. but you can't do it now.

but the really funny thing is that you can true polymorph into an archmage and also *gain* class abilities.

it's kinda weird. but it does make it comparatively more balanced than keeping all your class abilities regardless.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe they all True Polymorphed eachother? It is possible to have a good number of characters with Level 9 True Polymorph.

That would be a very powerful party indeed!

The first post only mention "the caster who was powerful enough", so it seems there was only one who casted the spell

[MarkVIIIMarc]

It does say it can be made permanent though. Thank you, I don't read 9th level spells that often.

On a tangent I guess you can True Polymorph an individual "permanently" into something for a month then True Polymorph them back into an elf or human.

[Doug Lampert]

It does say it can be made permanent though. Thank you, I don't read 9th level spells that often.

On a tangent I guess you can True Polymorph an individual "permanently" into something for a month then True Polymorph them back into an elf or human.

Or just dispel the True Polymorph. Don't ask what happens if the character gains levels while permanently True Polymophed and then has it dispelled, that way lies madness.

[Douche]

Read the description of Shapechange

Now compare that to True Polymorph

Why would they have 2 spells that are so similar, other than one giving you the ability to change to a different form at will instead of just once. If they wanted you to be able to quickly change shapes at your will, then they would've just included that in True Polymorph & left it at that.

The distinction between True Polymorph & Shapechange is that Shapechange allows you to keep all your class features. True Polymorph is TRUE meaning you become that creature. If it can cast spells, then you can cast the spells it is able to do. But Shapechange, you are still yourself - while taking advantage of all the abilities that the creature you changed into has. If you're a rogue that Shapechanges, you can still sneak attack even if you changed into an Elephant (if you count tusks as Finesse weapons, I suppose :smalltongue:)

Thus, it is my belief that True Polymorph does not allow you to use spellcasting of your original class. Only Shapechange would allow such a thing.


So you're saying that using TP means you lose all your knowledge, memories of your training, and professional experience?

You're being silly. It's a game mechanic. If you want to use True Polymorph to become a Ancient Black Dragon, then you have to use the mechanics of an Ancient Black Dragon for that period of time. You can explain it however you want, but if you want to use your Thieves Tools proficiency when you're a 200 ft tall dragon... Well, you don't have that proficiency now. Probably cuz your massive claws are too big to fiddle around with some tiny lockpicks, I dunno. Doesn't matter, it's a game mechanic - not fluff.

When it comes to mental scores, the game mechanics aren't going to prevent you from helping your teammates. They put the words "alignment & personality" there, and the players are expected to not be a douche about it & start a pedantic discussion about what it means to keep your personality while losing your intelligence & wisdom.

"Neh neh, but Douche, D&D players will argue about the tiniest details about everything! Did you forget what game you were playing? LEL I M SO FUNY" you say

Okie doke. Go ahead. But the point is that the spell is supposed to be as simple as possible. You are still yourself, but you act with all the properties of the creature you have turned into. So yes, you did lose all your professional experience for the time being, because the game mechanics have dictated that they don't want you to keep your class features, proficiency, etc. when you are in the form of a space walrus - UNLESS YOU'RE SHAPECHANGED LOLOLOL... Then you can use your PAM+sentinel feat while your in the form of a creature that has infinite Opportunity Attacks, or whatever other broken combo you can think of.

[Asmotherion]

Let me put it this way: If Wish is a "I can do anything I can think of, but to a limit in order to avoid harsh consequences" spell, True Polymorph is "I can do anything I can think of as long as I get creative enough, and face no consequences whatsoever" spell.

-Transmute a fly into a permanent bar of pure platinum. Make it a cow if DM enforces size limitations. Sell and profit.
-Transmute a rock into a friendly Young Silver Dragon, befriend it, and have a Dragon Pal join your Party.
-Transmute a willing party member into an Adult Dragon. Especislly if they messed up with their multiclass, they will be more than glad for it.

[Unoriginal]

You're being silly. It's a game mechanic. If you want to use True Polymorph to become a Ancient Black Dragon, then you have to use the mechanics of an Ancient Black Dragon for that period of time. You can explain it however you want, but if you want to use your Thieves Tools proficiency when you're a 200 ft tall dragon... Well, you don't have that proficiency now. Probably cuz your massive claws are too big to fiddle around with some tiny lockpicks, I dunno. Doesn't matter, it's a game mechanic - not fluff.

When it comes to mental scores, the game mechanics aren't going to prevent you from helping your teammates. They put the words "alignment & personality" there, and the players are expected to not be a douche about it & start a pedantic discussion about what it means to keep your personality while losing your intelligence & wisdom.

"Neh neh, but Douche, D&D players will argue about the tiniest details about everything! Did you forget what game you were playing? LEL I M SO FUNY" you say

Okie doke. Go ahead. But the point is that the spell is supposed to be as simple as possible. You are still yourself, but you act with all the properties of the creature you have turned into. So yes, you did lose all your professional experience for the time being, because the game mechanics have dictated that they don't want you to keep your class features, proficiency, etc. when you are in the form of a space walrus - UNLESS YOU'RE SHAPECHANGED LOLOLOL... Then you can use your PAM+sentinel feat while your in the form of a creature that has infinite Opportunity Attacks, or whatever other broken combo you can think of.

Calm down, dude. I was just trying to see if being TP means that you don't count as what you were before anymore, from a "who you are" perspective. Would an item that only works when used by a Fighter stop working if handled by a fighter TP into a squid? My argument was that it's not being able to use the capacity of a class that makes you count as a class, but your history and the time you've spent being one. So a TP Fighter would still be a Fighter, just unable to use what he did previously.

Same way that you're still a Fighter if someone used Wish to make so you can't fight anymore.

[Dalebert]

Here's what it comes down to. Being able to use warlock items is a class feature of warlocks. My shadow monk with two levels of warlock wouldn't be able to use his Staff of Power if he hadn't dipped warlock. That's a huge benefit for my character and thus a class feature.

Your class features are gone. They're part of the statistics that you had that are completely replaced by the features of the form you assumed. You can't cast warlock spells, use warlock invocations, or use warlock magic items.

[Douche]

Calm down, dude. I was just trying to see if being TP means that you don't count as what you were before anymore, from a "who you are" perspective. Would an item that only works when used by a Fighter stop working if handled by a fighter TP into a squid? My argument was that it's not being able to use the capacity of a class that makes you count as a class, but your history and the time you've spent being one. So a TP Fighter would still be a Fighter, just unable to use what he did previously.

Same way that you're still a Fighter if someone used Wish to make so you can't fight anymore.

I don't really get what you're trying to say. In terms of items, if a zombie is able to use your +2 Longsword then you can use it. But zombies don't have weapon proficiency, so no you can't use the Longsword (at least not with your proficiency bonus). If you have a bunch of scrolls that you can use as a wizard, you cannot use them if you're Polymorphed unless the form you change into is capable of using scrolls.

All that other esoteric stuff you're saying, it doesn't matter. You are "who you are", you just don't keep your mechanics. You swap them for the mechanics of another creature. So you're a bard who went to college for history, and thus have double proficiency on history checks. Then you Polymorphed into a creature that has an even higher intellect than you, but doesn't have proficiency in history (nor does it have expertise). Now you have to roll history checks like normal. Deal with it!

Perhaps the stress of dealing with a new body, strange limbs & suddenly being able to breath lightning has you discombobulated enough that you can't focus on what you learned in history class.

[Dalebert]

Perhaps the stress of dealing with a new body, strange limbs & suddenly being able to breath lightning has you discombobulated enough that you can't focus on what you learned in history class.

Sure. This is an excellent example of something I've said many times. If a rule doesn't necessarily make sense, make something up to make it make sense. Many if not most of the rules have taken balance and simplicity into account first before they try to achieve realism. The point is this spell actually changes the state of your mind; not just your body. You keep your personality and alignment but not even necessarily all your memories, e.g. your bard training.

Make up whatever you need so it makes sense for you. This is a rule for the sake of game balance. You have to temporarily give up your features to gain the new ones.

[Sigreid]

No caster can cast more than one 9th level spell per day.

Well, outside an epic boon, which can give you one more.

[Vaz]

If by game statistics, you're referring to class level, then you end up Dividing by Zero.

Look at the Druid. 'Your game statistics are replaced by those of the beast'

As soon as they are replaced, and you are no longer able to use your class abilities, you are stuck as beast.

I don't think so.

Why is it that every thread is drastically trying to prove that WotC aren't morons who write vastly OP'd or UP'd stuff (lol @ weird) by grasping at straws, when all it takes is to say 'yes it's OP, here is how to fix it via houserules'.

That said, there are some on this forum who consider Undying Light Warlocks OP, but hey ho.

[Dalebert]

If by game statistics, you're referring to class level, then you end up Dividing by Zero.

Look at the Druid. 'Your game statistics are replaced by those of the beast'

As soon as they are replaced, and you are no longer able to use your class abilities, you are stuck as beast.


Nonsense. Wildshape has multiple paragraphs explaining in great detail what you replace and what you keep. TP has two words on what you keep--your personality and alignment. That's it. It's a very poor choice of analogy. TP is clearly intended to be a much more complete change. Even your mental stats change, unlike with wildshape.

[Vogonjeltz]

So I was in my first game where this actually came up and we had to deal with it. My understanding at the time of True Polymorph was that the creature's statistics completely replace your own other than alignment and personality. So I took that to mean all your class features are replaced and thus unusable.

But lots of people don't interpret it that way and last night I realized why. There's a paragraph about the creature being limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form and spellcasting is given as an example. Well why include such a paragraph if you have only the statistics of the new form? Obviously, you can do whatever that creature can normally do. This paragraph is explaining how to handle other actions. What could it be referring to if not abilities you retained from before the change?

We all got polymorphed into devas except the caster who was high enough to be a planetar. These creatures all have the physical properties needed to exploit any particular class feature that humanoids have. They just also have a lot of other cool stuff. This is how we beat Tiamat. I'm not sure we would have won without this change.

As you already have the MM open, flip to pages 5 ("Statistics") and 10 ("Spellcasting").

TLDR: Spellcasting is a statistic.


I initially assumed that "until it is dispelled" only overrode the duration, but it might also replace the 0 hit points and death clauses. Stuck as a dragon's corpse until dispelled?

Correct, if you have a True Polymorph lasting longer than an hour, immediately contact a Dispel Magic specialist.


Just realized another huge drawback to this spell. You will likely become unattuned to many of your items and have to reattune when you change back. This is is also true for the 4th level Polymorph spell so keep that in mind before you start zapping yourself or friends into giant apes to wollap on baddies. Just make sure you have a chance for a short rest afterward.

Items get absorbed into you for the duration (and, as you note, even if you did drop them, it wouldn't really be 'you').


You lose your class features, not your class. A wizard polymorphed into a T-Rex is still a wizard, he still has all his wizard levels, he just can't do any of his wizard stuff right now.

Strictly speaking, they are no longer a Wizard at all, they're just whatever is in the monster stat block + their original alignment and personality (see: Background). Mentally they are almost as altered as they are physically.

[Zalabim]

This is a perfect place to use Quantum Leap's Swiss Cheese Effect on memory.