No wealth PC = what CR?

[Oryan77]

Out of curiosity and to put things into perspective, I'm wondering what my 6th level (Mystic Theurge) with nothing more than +2 armor, a non MW weapon, and 300gp to his name is actually the equivalent to in terms of CR? I should have had at least 13k worth of gear. So I'm curious what a weak class with barely half of the appropriate wealth would be the equivalent to in character level.

I joined a game where everyone else is much more powerful than I am with multiple +5 items and artifacts and a few higher class levels. A run of bad saving throw rolls in round 1 of my first fight put me out of the game for the rest of the night. So I kept track of initiative and watched everyone kill stuff and take their loot.

I realized when driving home that I just spent 7 hours not playing D&D, earned no treasure, got a mere 350 XP for my 1 round of combat, and had to endure listening to players brag about how great, powerful, and wealthy their PCs were and what they were going to do if/when they found my petrified body that was teleported into a random room. After we joked about whether or not they would find me in the next session and if I should show up to play or not, I got the impression the DM was going to throw me a bone somehow so I could continue playing.

I don't blame anyone, cause it's a rookie DM who means well, and I don't even think having better gear could have helped make my saves due to my somewhat "weak" build and low rolls. Plus, I like a good challenge. I do know the adventure is for character levels 7-9 and I'm wondering just how underpowered I was for this adventure.

[WbtE]

Probably a level behind (ECL 5)? From the sounds of it, the equipment and level advantages of the rest of the group are enough to put them more than four levels ahead of you.

It might be a good idea to become a lackey to another PC in the hopes of getting some hand-me-down magic items. :smallwink:

[Oryan77]

It might be a good idea to become a lackey to another PC in the hopes of getting some hand-me-down magic items. :smallwink:

Hah, I attempted to do just that until the player that responded to my request began bragging about his evilness OOC and how his PC may or may not require some weird and questionably immoral method of repayment. So I roleplayed a bit with him and determined his PC was not trustworthy and definitely not the kind of person I wanted to be in debt too. So I offered to do some maid service for an NPC Dwarf King which is the only reason I managed to get some +2 armor before the adventure.

I'm not too keen on acting like the little B**** for a group of PCs, but I sucked it up and roleplayed my best to keep my dignity.

[Ruethgar]

I would put you nearer CR 2 without a spell book, component pouch, or divine focus you are pretty much useless. Eschew Materials would bring you up probably to 5 or so.

[Coidzor]

Hah, I attempted to do just that until the player that responded to my request began bragging about his evilness OOC and how his PC may or may not require some weird and questionably immoral method of repayment. So I roleplayed a bit with him and determined his PC was not trustworthy and definitely not the kind of person I wanted to be in debt too. So I offered to do some maid service for an NPC Dwarf King which is the only reason I managed to get some +2 armor before the adventure.

Sounds like these guys are just ******.


I'm not too keen on acting like the little B**** for a group of PCs, but I sucked it up and roleplayed my best to keep my dignity.

You lost your dignity by continuing to play with these berks.

[lord_khaine]

I'm not too keen on acting like the little B**** for a group of PCs, but I sucked it up and roleplayed my best to keep my dignity.

I would honestly have told them to suck it at that point myself. As you yourself told, you spend 7 hours watching someone else play d&d.

You could of course take the chance, and have a personal 1-1 talk with the gm. Explain how being so far behind is really unfun for you. Since it makes you feel more like a sidekick than a actual adventurer.

[emeraldstreak]

Weaker than lvl 2 arena champ that has spent his 1000 wbl on the best consumables out there.

[SangoProduction]

Yeah. I just straight up wouldn't play with that group. But that's not the point of the post, so let's not inundate him with such statements.

Yeah. I'd probably peg you as....CR 2 or 3. I mean, you are a spell caster, so compared to a level 2 or 3 martial character, you are pretty decently well off. But, any higher, and they probably could kick your butt with magic items.

Against a level 2 or 3 creature with artifacts....you probably lose.

I'm assuming you at least have the basic capacity to cast spells (spell pouch and what not). If you don't, you're a glorified fighter without the feats.

[Dagroth]

Out of curiosity and to put things into perspective, I'm wondering what my 6th level (Mystic Theurge) with nothing more than +2 armor, a non MW weapon, and 300gp to his name is actually the equivalent to in terms of CR? I should have had at least 13k worth of gear. So I'm curious what a weak class with barely half of the appropriate wealth would be the equivalent to in character level.

I joined a game where everyone else is much more powerful than I am with multiple +5 items and artifacts and a few higher class levels. A run of bad saving throw rolls in round 1 of my first fight put me out of the game for the rest of the night. So I kept track of initiative and watched everyone kill stuff and take their loot.

I realized when driving home that I just spent 7 hours not playing D&D, earned no treasure, got a mere 350 XP for my 1 round of combat, and had to endure listening to players brag about how great, powerful, and wealthy their PCs were and what they were going to do if/when they found my petrified body that was teleported into a random room. After we joked about whether or not they would find me in the next session and if I should show up to play or not, I got the impression the DM was going to throw me a bone somehow so I could continue playing.

I don't blame anyone, cause it's a rookie DM who means well, and I don't even think having better gear could have helped make my saves due to my somewhat "weak" build and low rolls. Plus, I like a good challenge. I do know the adventure is for character levels 7-9 and I'm wondering just how underpowered I was for this adventure.

1) If your character survived a fight that you participated in, you should've gotten full xp for that fight... even if you only participated in 1 round of it. Just like the entire party still gets xp for a trap that the rogue sets off and survives.

2) +5 items and artifacts?!? The game I'm currently playing in has hit 15th level and we don't have +5 weapons! We found a +4 Wisdom book and I traded in a +4 Wisdom item for a +6 one (Then sold my armor to buy a Monk's Belt... +10 AC that affects Touch & Flat Footed? Yes please!)

3) You're a 6th level character... I'm guessing you're still working towards Mystic Theurge (unless you used early entry)... why do you have armor? Spell Failure is a horrible thing for Wizards.

4) The Sample 6th level NPC Cleric in the DMG (page 115) has: +1 full plate, heavy steel shield, mwk melee, mundane ranged, 3,600 gp. You are not that far behind that!

So, assuming you do have a spell component pouch, spell book & holy symbol, you're CR3-4. If you're high-OP designed (Feats & Spell selection), you can prove to be a challenge to a party of level 4 characters.

[Ashtagon]

I'd be tempted to suicide my character at this point. It's clearly non-competitive compared to the rest of the group, and if they insist on you playing a weaker character than the rest of the group, that's a classic D move.

[Blu]

I'd be tempted to suicide my character at this point. It's clearly non-competitive compared to the rest of the group, and if they insist on you playing a weaker character than the rest of the group, that's a classic D move.

Besides the players apparently not sharing magic items and the GM being cool(and probably didn't even think about it) with a lower level, lower geared character in the party. Better to find another table or something where it is more fair for you, you deserve better thant that dude.

[Pleh]

You should have a real talk with your DM.

You just aren't getting to have fun the same as everyone else. The group needs to help change that, or the game isn't worth the effort.

I agree with your decision to stick it out. I always encourage people to finish well.

But don't consign yourself to being a lackey. If you want to do that, do it and embrace it. Play the heck out of being a lackey. Prepare the whilhem scream soundbite to play every time you fall in combat.

If that's not what you want to play, you need your DM to give you the power to pull your own weight in the party. Waiting for your character to catch up to everyone is a terrible plan.

[Zancloufer]

Lack of wealth on a PC probably depends on their Tier. Assuming you are not outright missing gear that stops you from being effective at all (Spell components/Book for Wizard, Focus for Druid/Cleric, Sword for a Fighter) it would probably be between -1 and -16 ECL depending on level/class/wealth gap.

A level 20 Fighter with a stick is hard pressed to be worth more than a level 4 Fighter with magical arms/armour. A level 20 Wizard with just their spell book and the eschew materials feat is still probably a level 17+ threat if they are careful.

As a Mystic Theurge with at most half WBL? Probably only -1 or -2 depending on how fast you entered. Now the problem is that everyone is packing WBL that's probably 10-15 levels above theirs (so a good 500%+) which MASSIVELY inflates their threat level. Especially if any of it has SLAs/Spell completion enchantments. At level 5 you should have +1-2 items, wands and the ilk that go up to level 3 (maybe a level 4 spell scroll or two).

Not +5 Weapons, or Artifacts. Shouldn't get +5 items until level 13+ at least. Artifacts? When the plot demands it. Those are just 100% outside of WBL and serve more a Macguffin role than standard loot.

[John Longarrow]

In the games I run and some I've played in, we track the characters ECL as a combination of their character and their wealth.

If your character is 6th level (character levels + RHD + LA) and your WLB is about 4700 gp (high 3rd level but below 5,400 for 4th) I'd give you an effective character level of 4 or 5.

For Mystic Thuerge, what is your actual build? What is your caster level in each?

[Oryan77]

For Mystic Thuerge, what is your actual build? What is your caster level in each?

I wasn't trying to optimize for this game since the DM was new to DMing. So I went with a build that I thought would make for a fun utility/healer/buffer type and went sorcerer1/cleric3 with an early entry to MT at lvl 5 (I am 6th lvl). Someone here mentioned why I wore armor and it is because I wanted a mithral shirt with thistledown padding so I'd only have a 5% Arcane Spell Failure. I wanted to try something other than selecting mage armor for once. :smalltongue:

I didn't realize everyone had gained so much wealth/power for their levels. I also didn't realize I was gonna be the only player out of 7 players that was not going to get to start with his appropriate wealth. I didn't really care at the time because it gave me some roleplaying opportunities. I just wasn't expecting to sit out the entire game. So it got me thinking about how much more of a challenge this adventure would be for me compared to the other players.

Based on the answers in this thread, it looks like I'm around a lvl 4 PC playing in a lvl 7 adventure with other PCs that are levels 6-12. Yikes.

[Dagroth]

No, you're not the only character not starting with their appropriate wealth.

You're starting (or continuing) with notably lower wealth, and they're starting (or continuing) with ridiculously higher wealth.

[WbtE]

the DM was new to DMing.

You mentioned earlier that the DM was considering balancing things out a bit. Unlike people telling you to quit now, I think it's worth hanging in to see what they offer. Everyone makes mistakes, especially when they're new, so if you're having a reasonable time maybe you should treat the campaign more as an opportunity to help your DM learn?

[Fizban]

Player characters don't have CR. That said, if you wish to evaluate combat effectiveness as if they were foes rated by CR, you have to define what that means. As written an NPC with NPC wealth is CR=level, while NPC wealth is significantly lower than PC WBL. In actuality, bruiser NPCs are already worth at least one or two CR less than their level due to lack of actual monster comparable stats (humanoid NPC Warriors with full NPC wealth are basically CR 1/2 their level), while casters range from CR=level to CR=n/a due to glass cannon syndrome. You're running a Mystic Theurge buffer, which makes you personally CR*, since your effectiveness is entirely dependent upon whoever you're buffing and how good you actually are at it.

Newness of the DM is irrelevant. If they're throwing around +5 weapons and artifacts at 7th level they clearly haven't paid the least bit of attention to standard balance. The fact that they force you to come in at a lower level than everyone else, without comparable equipment, means that you're screwed until they get a clue. This needs more than "a bit" of balancing out, and somehow I doubt the group is going to abandon their oh so cool characters to start a new game with some sanity.

[Blu]

Newness of the DM is irrelevant. If they're throwing around +5 weapons and artifacts at 7th level they clearly haven't paid the least bit of attention to standard balance. The fact that they force you to come in at a lower level than everyone else, without comparable equipment, means that you're screwed until they get a clue. This needs more than "a bit" of balancing out, and somehow I doubt the group is going to abandon their oh so cool characters to start a new game with some sanity.

Not even attention... DM didn't think about it.
Let's give this lvl 7+ party some incredible equipment while the new guy starts a lvl behind and needs to beg for the basic stuff.
I'm really exaggerating but your DM really needs to think on what he's doing. That's why i would recommend bailing out. You basically depend on him having some good sense to have it fair for you, while finding a new DM wich already unlocked that skill sounds more easy.

[Starbuck_II]

Out of curiosity and to put things into perspective, I'm wondering what my 6th level (Mystic Theurge) with nothing more than +2 armor, a non MW weapon, and 300gp to his name is actually the equivalent to in terms of CR? I should have had at least 13k worth of gear. So I'm curious what a weak class with barely half of the appropriate wealth would be the equivalent to in character level.

I joined a game where everyone else is much more powerful than I am with multiple +5 items and artifacts and a few higher class levels. A run of bad saving throw rolls in round 1 of my first fight put me out of the game for the rest of the night. So I kept track of initiative and watched everyone kill stuff and take their loot.

I realized when driving home that I just spent 7 hours not playing D&D, earned no treasure, got a mere 350 XP for my 1 round of combat, and had to endure listening to players brag about how great, powerful, and wealthy their PCs were and what they were going to do if/when they found my petrified body that was teleported into a random room. After we joked about whether or not they would find me in the next session and if I should show up to play or not, I got the impression the DM was going to throw me a bone somehow so I could continue playing.

I don't blame anyone, cause it's a rookie DM who means well, and I don't even think having better gear could have helped make my saves due to my somewhat "weak" build and low rolls. Plus, I like a good challenge. I do know the adventure is for character levels 7-9 and I'm wondering just how underpowered I was for this adventure.

Well, levels 2-7 without any magic items is 1 CR lower; Level 8-13 without any magic items is 2 CR lower; and Level 14-21 without any magic items is 3 CR lower.

So you are basically, since this a level +8 adventure it sounds like, 2 CR lower (since only a +2 armor is seriously as bad as no magic items). So treat yourself as level 4 EL.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The rest of the party is using artifacts. There are single artifacts more powerful than you are*. There is nothing you can do to bridge that gap. Talk to the DM, and get them to fix this, by giving you additional loot, or maybe by giving you an additional template or special race (aasimar, for instance), or even by putting you levels ahead of the party.


*In the hands of an able wielder, that is: psicrown of the crystal mind and staff of the magi. Some intelligent artifacts may qualify even without a wielder.

[Fizban]

The rest of the party is using artifacts. There are single artifacts more powerful than you are*.
The Shield of Prator gives the wielder the spellcasting of a 20th level Paladin. Despite duplicating a barely-there caster, this spellcasting is better than his character at 6th level.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The Shield of Prator gives the wielder the spellcasting of a 20th level Paladin. Despite duplicating a barely-there caster, this spellcasting is better than his character at 6th level.
Well now I feel stupid. I was reading the DMG list of artifacts just now, and stopped looking when I got to swords and shields. Bad mistake. If I recall correctly, the shield even stacks with (potentially doubles!) your regular paladin casting, if you have any.

[Oryan77]

Everyone makes mistakes, especially when they're newYeah that is how I see it. This is not by any means my regular D&D group. I DM for a really great group of players in my own campaign and I started playing with this new group just to take a break from DMing. I don't mind being the guinea pig so the DM can learn some mistakes. I just may have to bail on the group though if I continue sitting out an entire session watching everyone else breeze through the encounters and easily advancing while I'm struggling to earn an XP point and my next meal. I really don't mind being less powerful than other players, but I don't want to be screwed over and not playing in the process.


Player characters don't have CR.Ok, ECL then if that helps clarify what I am referring too.


Let's give this lvl 7+ party some incredible equipment while the new guy starts a lvl behind and needs to beg for the basic stuff.I believe the PCs received their epic gear from wishes granted by the Deck of Many Things. Which is a classic rookie DM mistake. I think he was trying to spread the wealth and cut down on individual PC wealth by hoping they would pay for my 13k worth of gear out of their own pockets. Another DM mistake. This isn't the teamwork kind of group. As soon as one player heard I needed a loan, he pounced on the chance to abuse his power and take advantage of my situation by attempting to make my PC his peon. That ain't gonna happen. In fact, I'm the type of player (especially with the PC I am playing) that will hold a grudge and will plan out the perfect plan of revenge regardless of how long it takes my character to execute it.


or maybe by giving you an additional template or special race (aasimar, for instance)I am actually playing as an Aasimar :smalltongue: He eventually waved the level adjustment earlier on, but he also did the same for a Drow PC and just let a new player create a Centaur PC (I am sure he started out with 6 class levels which puts him around ECL 12). I am not much invested in the game/group, so we'll see what happens. I was mainly just curious how my PC stacked up against the other PCs and the level of the adventure.

[Blu]

I believe the PCs received their epic gear from wishes granted by the Deck of Many Things. Which is a classic rookie DM mistake. I think he was trying to spread the wealth and cut down on individual PC wealth by hoping they would pay for my 13k worth of gear out of their own pockets. Another DM mistake. This isn't the teamwork kind of group. As soon as one player heard I needed a loan, he pounced on the chance to abuse his power and take advantage of my situation by attempting to make my PC his peon. That ain't gonna happen. In fact, I'm the type of player (especially with the PC I am playing) that will hold a grudge and will plan out the perfect plan of revenge regardless of how long it takes my character to execute it.

Well, in the end of the day it's you call. If you want to, you can help him become a better DM, be giving tips about this situations. And i know about the teamworks problems :smallfrown: one the current table im DMing, the barbarian found a chest while alone, and tought that 70% of the loot for him was fair.(the player thinking that too)