Help with a Gish build for my campaign's Big Bad

[Buddy76]

(So, I might have gone a tad overboard with the backstory. If you don´t feel like reading the whole thing just skip to the last paragraph, where I discuss the actual build :smallsmile:)

I'm planning a campaign in a homebrewed world where only one nation has artificers. It is a militaristic empire where all the highest positions of government are filled with either artificers or wizards. The imperial artificers make magic itens that are issued to the military (every soldier, even the mooks with warrior levels, have the apprentice (spellcaster) feat).

The main villain of the story is going to be the lawful evil prince of the empire. The pcs all hail from nations threatened by this empire and they are tasked with guarding a peace deal between the remaining free nations and the empire. The current empress is not so bad (she's lawful neutral) and is open to negotiations, but her son is undermining the peace talks from behind the scenes, while planning to ascend to the throne.

The imperial family are all celestial athasian humans (from dragon 319), but they are not good aligned (the empire grew so powerful that they invaded the heavens and enslaved the angels. Now the children of the imperial household are born and spend their formative years in the upper planes). On top of that, long ago, the founder of the empire struck a deal with Primus (leader of the Modrons) and all her descendants carry his divine spark in their blood (they have the Divinity unique ability from DMGII and have the power of the warforged domain).

The evil prince's father is also a prismatic great wyrm (the imperial family likes to add powerful creatures to it's bloodline). So, we have a character with a very august heritage who grew up in Mount Celestia. He is very arrogant and despises the material plane as a chaotic mess full of inferior beings and wishes to impose order on it through conquest.

The prince was trained in both swordplay and magic by the best teachers across the planes. As the title implied, I want him to be the "final boss" of the campaign and very formidable.

He´s a male half-prismatic dragon celestial athasian human with 20 class levels. What do you guys suggest for those class levels? I want him to be both strong in melee and have access to 9th spells. I was thinking warblade/wizard/abjurant champion/jade phoenix mage, but that doesn´t get me 9th level spells. Suggestions? I´m using all the books and dragon magazine (also, he doesn´t need to be a initiator, it was just something that came to my mind). Thanks :smallsmile: !

[danielxcutter]

Google "gish handbook" and click the one on this forum for some nice solid advice on arcane gishes in general.

Yeah, I guess I'm being a bit lazy, but I don't have much to say that isn't on there.

[Buddy76]

Fair enough :smallsmile:. I have read the gish handbook but was hoping for some unorthodox builds. I figured that there is more wiggle room than usual, seeing as the character in question was an npc already at 20th level, meaning I could use builds that only come online at very high levels (also, since the character has good stats overall, it could even be MAD). However, judging by the lack of response, I guess there aren't many more ways to create a gish than those already extensively written about elsewhere (I myself am having trouble coming up with one).

[WhamBamSam]

Wizard 5/Warblade or Crusader 1/Abjurant Champ X/JPM Y would in fact get you 9th level spells. JPM only loses two caster levels.


Fair enough :smallsmile:. I have read the gish handbook but was hoping for some unorthodox builds. I figured that there is more wiggle room than usual, seeing as the character in question was an npc already at 20th level, meaning I could use builds that only come online at very high levels (also, since the character has good stats overall, it could even be MAD). However, judging by the lack of response, I guess there aren't many more ways to create a gish than those already extensively written about elsewhere (I myself am having trouble coming up with one).I do enjoy an unorthodox Gish. Gishing is, after all, all about style, so if you're doing it in an orthodox way, I sorta feel like you're missing the point.

I do have a few questions, however...

Do you want Wizard specifically, or would another LE arcane caster with 9ths (Sorcerer, Sha'ir, Wu Jen, Death Master, Nar Demonbinder with Versatile Spellcaster and a Bloodline Feat) also work? Wizard is probably the most powerful, but it's nice to know one's options.

What exactly does Athasian Human give you? Any interesting racial abilities?

Will he fight the party alone, or could he have some minions (even something like animated undead)?

[Buddy76]

Wizard 5/Warblade or Crusader 1/Abjurant Champ X/JPM Y would in fact get you 9th level spells. JPM only loses two caster levels.

Huh, that's true, I guess I did the math wrong on that one.


I do enjoy an unorthodox Gish. Gishing is, after all, all about style, so if you're doing it in an orthodox way, I sorta feel like you're missing the point.

My thoughts exactly :smallbiggrin:, I think gishes are among the coolest character concepts.


I do have a few questions, however...

Do you want Wizard specifically, or would another arcane full caster (Sorcerer, Sha'ir, Wu Jen, Death Master, Nar Demonbinder with Versatile Spellcaster and a Bloodline Feat) also work? Wizard is probably the most powerful, but it's nice to know one's options.

What exactly does Athasian Human give you? Any interesting racial abilities?

Any arcane caster with access to 9s is fair game, as long as the fluff of the class isn't "you have innate magical powers" (sorcerer, for example). This is a character who learned magic by discipline and a very privileged education (which is why my mind went to wizard). Also, I'm not familiar with the Nar Demonbinder with Versatile Spellcaster and a Bloodline Feat combo, that sounds interesting!

Athasian human is basically vanilla human on steroids, it gives you everything the latter does plus +2 in two abilities of your choice and a few bonus psionic power points, along with some low level powers from the psion list. My setting doesn't really have anything to do with Athas, I just chose the race to reflect the increase in power from baseline humans, brought about by generations of selective breeding by the imperial family.

He will not fight the party alone. He has a celestial phoenix that serves as his mount (transportation, really. He will probably dismount during combat, but the phoenix will also engage the pcs) and a necklace that controls a runic guardian, plus two ten hit dice constructs that he commanded using his warforged domain power (I'm still choosing which constructs). He might have other henchmen, depending on how strong the party is going to be when they fight him. Right now they are: a 3rd level fire elf wizard, a 3rd level spellscale cleric, a 3rd level human warlock, a 3rd level dwarf rogue and a 2nd level half-giant crusader. My plan is for them to fight him between 18th and 20th level.

Thanks for the input!

[WhamBamSam]

Any arcane caster with access to 9s is fair game, as long as the fluff of the class isn't "you have innate magical powers" (sorcerer, for example). This is a character who learned magic by discipline and a very privileged education (which is why my mind went to wizard). Also, I'm not familiar with the Nar Demonbinder with Versatile Spellcaster and a Bloodline Feat combo, that sounds interesting!Bloodline feats grant a spell known at each level you're able to cast, and Versatile Spellcaster lets you trade in two 8th level slots for a 9th level slot, so a Nar Demonbinder with both can cast a 9th level spell. Problem is, the 9ths from Bloodline feats tend not to be very good. You might be able to fix this with Apprentice (Spellcaster) which lets you swap a spell you know for another at each spellcaster level, assuming you can get a different 9th onto your Nar Demonbinder spell list (Arcane Disciple perhaps, though that requires a bit of a Wis investment in addition to the heavy feat investment).

My favorite example of such a build is this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286800-Merry-Gishmas!-19-BAB-9th-level-spells-and-full-attack-channeling) by Piggy Knowles, which also gets Duskblade Full Attack Channeling. It even already has Arcane Disciple baked in, so you might be able to jam Apprentice (Spellcaster) in there as well and convert your Draconic/Axiomatic/whatever Bloodline spells into ones that you actually want.

No Sorcerer then. That does eliminate Ghostly Tail shenanigans, which are a favorite JPM and Dragonblooded trick of mine, but in general a class that takes an extra level to reach 9ths is going to be more of a problem for a Gish build anyway.


Athasian human is basically vanilla human on steroids, it gives you everything the latter does plus +2 in two abilities of your choice and a few bonus psionic power points, along with some low level powers from the psion list. My setting doesn't really have anything to do with Athas, I just chose the race to reflect the increase in power from baseline humans, brought about by generations of selective breeding by the imperial family.Neat. A splash of psionics allows for some fun tricks. One of these is the spell Dweomer of Transferrence (XPH), which turns spells cast against the target psionic creature into PP for effective immunity to magic for rounds/level. Problem is, it has a 1 minute casting time, which makes it awkward to cast as a combat buff, but there are a few ways around that. One is the old stale cheese of abusing Uncanny Forethought's bad writing, but another, largely Gish-specific method exists. I learned about it through the fantastic Halfdan the Black (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17753279&postcount=312), again by Piggy Knowles, from the Iron Chef Spellsword round (who your BBEG feels vaguely reminiscent of due to both being jumbles of magical genes and having vaguely similar goals and motivations). The Channel Spell abilities of Ordained Champion and Spellsword can cast it into a weapon as a move action, which you can then stab yourself with to gain the effect at your convenience.

Sha'irs have enough divine casting to be advanced by divine casting PrCs if they can qualify. Sha'ir with Southern Magician into Ordained Champion 3 is among my favorite Gish bases to work from, though that might not fit the flavor you want.


He will not fight the party alone. He has a celestial phoenix that serves as his mount (transportation, really. He will probably dismount during combat, but the phoenix will also engage the pcs) and a necklace that controls a runic guardian, plus two ten hit dice constructs that he commanded using his warforged domain power (I'm still choosing which constructs). He might have other henchmen, depending on how strong the party is going to be when they fight him. Right now they are: a 3rd level fire elf wizard, a 3rd level spellscale cleric, a 3rd level human warlock, a 3rd level dwarf rogue and a 2nd level half-giant crusader. My plan is for them to fight him between 18th and 20th level.Constructs are non-living and hence ignored by Brilliant Energy weapons (such as those with the Brilliant Blade spell cast upon them), though I doubt my usual method of making use of that (Polymorphing into something big and Area Attacking) fits the flavor you're going for with this.

One of my favorite Gish spells is Whirling Blade, and one of my favorite combos with it is Cleave. By giving you a way to kill a far-off target with a melee attack, it helps to overcome the usual limitations of the Cleave feat. It even lets you use your casting stat on the attack roll for the cleave attack, since it has the same attack bonus as the original attack. It gets even more fun when you have disposable minions (like undead created with the Destructive Retribution feat) that you can kill yourself to get Cleave attacks. That was my main reason for asking about minions, but it's good information to know regardless.

[Buddy76]

Neat. A splash of psionics allows for some fun tricks. One of these is the spell Dweomer of Transferrence (XPH), which turns spells cast against the target psionic creature into PP for effective immunity to magic for rounds/level. Problem is, it has a 1 minute casting time, which makes it awkward to cast as a combat buff, but there are a few ways around that. One is the old stale cheese of abusing Uncanny Forethought's bad writing, but another, largely Gish-specific method exists. I learned about it through the fantastic Halfdan the Black (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17753279&postcount=312), again by Piggy Knowles, from the Iron Chef Spellsword round (who your BBEG feels vaguely reminiscent of due to both being jumbles of magical genes and having vaguely similar goals and motivations). The Channel Spell abilities of Ordained Champion and Spellsword can cast it into a weapon as a move action, which you can then stab yourself with to gain the effect at your convenience.
I wasn't familiar with any of those, that's exactly the sort of thing that I was hoping to get out of this thread. Haldand the Black is indeed a fantastic character and I might take a few tricks from him.


Sha'irs have enough divine casting to be advanced by divine casting PrCs if they can qualify. Sha'ir with Southern Magician into Ordained Champion 3 is among my favorite Gish bases to work from, though that might not fit the flavor you want. I might go Sha'ir. Maybe his magic tutor was a genie (he had a multiplanar education, after all), it would certainly give the character a more distinct flavor compared to wizard. Also, a ridiculously high diplomacy check is the sort of thing a scheming noble would have.


Constructs are non-living and hence ignored by Brilliant Energy weapons (such as those with the Brilliant Blade spell cast upon them), though I doubt my usual method of making use of that (Polymorphing into something big and Area Attacking) fits the flavor you're going for with this. He might not use that initially, but will certainly go for it out of frustration if the "inferior beings" start to get the better of him.


One of my favorite Gish spells is Whirling Blade, and one of my favorite combos with it is Cleave. By giving you a way to kill a far-off target with a melee attack, it helps to overcome the usual limitations of the Cleave feat. It even lets you use your casting stat on the attack roll for the cleave attack, since it has the same attack bonus as the original attack. It gets even more fun when you have disposable minions (like undead created with the Destructive Retribution feat) that you can kill yourself to get Cleave attacks. That was my main reason for asking about minions, but it's good information to know regardless. Well, disposable undead are not off the table, and I might also have him command lots of small constructs instead of two 10HD ones, creating even more throwaway minions.

Hey, thanks! That was a lot more help than I was expecting to get out of this thread.

[ShurikVch]

20th level game may be occasion to go a bit overboard, so - how about the Darklight Wizard PrC from Villain Design Handbook?
Brief description:
required Evil alignment, Human, Hobgoblin or Sil-karg race, and 5 in any Knowledge
full BAB, good Fort. save, d4 hp, and 6+ skill points
It's the only PrC which go from the 1st character level - because it's wipes away any previous classes (but keep skills, feats, and ability scores)
Animate Dead SLA at will
gets 9th-level spells at 9th level