Most broken build possible with no concentration rules?

[Tsubodai]

Hi all,

There is a group near me that I am looking to join, but one thing about them puts me off. They all seem to think that they shouldn't use the concentration rules. As such, in order to persuade them that the concentration rules are necessary for game balance, what is the most broken build you can come up with if concentration rules don't apply?

[PloxBox]

Anything involving Greater Invisibility. Sorc/Cleric multi-class with Spirit Guardians. Through in a Haste. Lets add a Faerie fire to help allies. Why not a Bestow curse? Some Eyebite or two. Start everything off with a Bane and Bless. I'm sure someone more creative/awake than I can think of more.

[Hawkstar]

Don't. Seriously, don't go into a game with the intention of screwing it up for everyone else because you believe people shouldn't be allowed to have nice things.

There are a lot of reasons some people feel concentration is a bad mechanic (It makes several spells a waste of paper, and gimps certain classes)

So, instead of being a jackass and going in with the idea of "I'm gonna break the system to prove it's broken!" go into the game and use the opportunity to NOT be a jerk and instead enjoy the freedom to use spells that are otherwise too risky to waste concentration slots on.

[Tsubodai]

Hawkstar,

I have no intention of actually playing any build suggested here, I only wanted to show them what could be done without concentration. Surely it is unfair on players who want to play martial characters if they do not use concentration rules?

[Ashuan21]

No Concentration = impossible to stop a crazily buffed Polymorph, which is quite terrifying at the right levels... A Hasted, Flying, Invisible T-Rex? God save your enemies.

The whole system is built on concentration, ignoring this is so silly that I have no words to describe how silly it is...
A Sorcerer with extended spells could buff himself for 24 hours, and with some Warlock levels it could even get its SP back after a short rest, with a net expense of 0 resources.

[rollingForInit]

Just imagine a Wizard with Fly and Windwall. No melee attacks, immune to all ranged weapon attacks.

[mgshamster]

Cast wall of force to pin enemies in. Cast cloudkill and kill them all as they can't escape.

Conjure up a bunch of creatures, and double the size of your party for hours at a time.

Be a paladin and bonus action cast multiple smite spells on yourself, so when you nova, you do 5-6x the damage you normally do in a single hit.

But really, who this helps the most is the DM. There have been many times I've wished I could do something with my bad guys and was limited to concentration. In our last session, the player's fought the Demon Lord, Graz'zt. He can cast Crown of Madness at will, and then dictate the movements of anyone he has charmed. If that spell wasn't concentration, I could be spam casting it until he mind controls every person on the battlefield. Along with dominate monster, charm person, and multiple other spells he has.

I could set up a high level wizard baddie who projects his image and then casts spells from a secret room.

The players may find some cool uses, and most likely will be just using it to buff multiple allies at once, or debuff multiple enemies. But really, it's the DM who has the most to gain from this house rule, and more often than not you'll be facing enemies who are substantially stronger due to the removal of concentration.

[Zene]

I'm sure there are lots of crazy things you could do, but in my opinion, the most broken thing woukd be a high-level land druid using all spell slots on simultaneous castings of conjure animals and conjure woodland beings. Each turn would take hours.

[Gignere]

Cast polymorph, haste, greater invisibility, on your party's pet. You will have a hasted invisible giant ape killing everything?

[mgshamster]

Edit: I got this combo completely wrong.

[MrFahrenheit]

No concentration? What is this, 3.5?!

[Byke]

***EDIT I'm assuming when you say no concentration rules you mean rolling conc checks when you take damage and not removing the limits on the number of spells you can maintain - Unlimited conc spells is 3.5 and breaks 5e. Not rolling conc checks or maintaining 2 conc spell is strong but not broken****

I have been at several different tables and played a variety of house rules.

Including no concentration, I asked for an explanation as to why and there response was does a fighter have to roll a morale check every time he get hit to run away or drop his sword :) I didn't find it broken in any way and really just saves casters a feat. One spell that would need to be looked at is Banishment, if the BBEG/key bad duded fails his save he is pretty much taken out for the entire fight since it can't be disrupted.

I was in another campaign where casters got two conc spell (1 defensive/self and one offensive/range other your / the focus maintained the defensive buff conc). But concentration rules still applied. This was a lot stronger and led to a lot more options for casters aside from the standard buff and then nuke the rest of the fight.

[Tsubodai]

Byke,

Sorry for a couple of things; not replying earlier first, and then not being clear. What I initially meant was in fact, that this table allowed unlimited conc. casting.

[Princess]

The main thing is that a sorcerer or wizard can out fighter fighter-types with greater invisible giant apes as a panic button. Sorcerer 9 can now twin greater invisibility, and then twin banishment, and then twin polymorph so ninja assassin invisible t-rexes eat most of the badguys while two of them are in limbo or outright removed if they're extraplanar. Suddenly a demon army is laughably useless. Multiple concentration combos are still amazing in normal play if you coordinate party members (Crusader's Mantle + Animate Objects), but sorcerer twin spells plus unlimited concentration spells could make a lot of other builds feel silly.

Idea that may or may not work - require a concentration check every round on at least one spell being concentrated on if there's more than one being maintained by a single caster. It introduces some risk to balance out the power nova.

Or, you know, just have a druid maintain all their highest level spell lots summoning as many velociraptor's as possible while the war cleric pumps out every group buff imaginable and see how many d4's you can slap something with in a single round. Bonus points if you need more d4's than are available in your entire region.

[Findulidas]

Just stack any spell that needs concentration on itself. Things like slow you enemies and haste your fighter. I mean there is a reason almost all these spells with concentration needs concentration. It was the problem of 3.5 that buffs could just get stacked until they went off.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

If no ones going to exploit it then what does it matter if people ignore a certain rule?

[suplee215]

If no ones going to exploit it then what does it matter if people ignore a certain rule?

I think "exploit" is subjective. At the very least no one will play a fighter or a barbarian because it boosts casters an insane amount.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

I think "exploit" is subjective. At the very least no one will play a fighter or a barbarian because it boosts casters an insane amount.

It didn't sound like the OP was implying that no one in the group is refusing to play martial classes but if that is the case I would probably agree

[suplee215]

It didn't sound like the OP was implying that no one in the group is refusing to play martial classes but if that is the case I would probably agree

Even if someone is playing a martial class they probably feel underwhelming as the major balancing part of casters was removed.

[Sigreid]

The main thing is that a sorcerer or wizard can out fighter fighter-types with greater invisible giant apes as a panic button. Sorcerer 9 can now twin greater invisibility, and then twin banishment, and then twin polymorph so ninja assassin invisible t-rexes eat most of the badguys while two of them are in limbo or outright removed if they're extraplanar. Suddenly a demon army is laughably useless. Multiple concentration combos are still amazing in normal play if you coordinate party members (Crusader's Mantle + Animate Objects), but sorcerer twin spells plus unlimited concentration spells could make a lot of other builds feel silly.

Idea that may or may not work - require a concentration check every round on at least one spell being concentrated on if there's more than one being maintained by a single caster. It introduces some risk to balance out the power nova.

Or, you know, just have a druid maintain all their highest level spell lots summoning as many velociraptor's as possible while the war cleric pumps out every group buff imaginable and see how many d4's you can slap something with in a single round. Bonus points if you need more d4's than are available in your entire region.

Or you can cast those same buff spells on the fighter and just wait outside the room for the screaming to stop. Any combination that will let the wizard out fight the fighter will turn the fighter into a GOD.

[JAL_1138]

Have a Palabard with PAM+GWM cast Bless, Elemental Weapon, Greater Invisibility, Haste, and Spirit Guardians, then Smite with every slot they have left. Nowhere near as broken as the rest, but plenty of really bonkers ones have already been mentioned.

Heck, just spam Hypnotic Pattern until everything on the board is staring slack-jawed at the pretty colors.

[fbelanger]

You can remove the concentration break on damage.
That would be a not gaming breaking change.

[Creyzi4j]

Any 3 spells with concentration is broken

[Vaz]

Any 3 rounds of combat and you've run out of spells and done sweet FA and the rest of the combat is over.

The duration on most spells is gone. Fly? Sure. You're flying for an hour.

[Cybren]

Even if someone is playing a martial class they probably feel underwhelming as the major balancing part of casters was removed.

Maybe at higher levels. At lower levels the limited number of spell slots probably means there won't be much difference and putting all your eggs in one basket that you can lose with a single hit makes it too fragile.

[Citan]

Hi all,

There is a group near me that I am looking to join, but one thing about them puts me off. They all seem to think that they shouldn't use the concentration rules. As such, in order to persuade them that the concentration rules are necessary for game balance, what is the most broken build you can come up with if concentration rules don't apply?

Hi!
Well then, any build providing you several buffs and enough slots to sustain it would be op, especially those with longer duration.
From memory, among the best (* denotes spells that are already non-concentration)...

Defense: Blur, Mirror Image*, Blink, Greater Invisibility, Armor of Agathys*, Fire Shield*, Warding Wind, Protection from Energy, Investiture of X, Shield of Faith, Circle of Power, Heroism.

Mobility: Jump*, Longstrider*, Expeditious Retreat, Haste

Buffs: Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Flame Arrows, Lightning Arrows, Divine Favor, all smite spells.

Other: Spirit Guardians, Spike Growth, Command*, Compelled Duel, Enhance Ability, Enlarge, Darkness, Conjure spells, Animate Objects etc

Attack: Walls of X, Heat Metal, Telekinesis,

Basically, what I would do in your stead would be...
1. Choose the kind of brokenness you want: resilience? offense? utility? invocations? mix?
2. Pick a primary class to go with...
3. Just dip one level in 2-3 other classes to pick up some of their best buffs

From instinct I would probably choose a Lore Bard since he gets so many good options already and can pick up other spells early. I would plan to level it as high as level 10 minimum, probably more depending on whatever I have left after picking...
- 1 Life Cleric: Bless, Shield of Faith, Protection from Evil and Good.
- 1 Druid: Longstrider, Jump, Absorb Elements
- 1 Draconic Sorcerer: Shield, Expeditious Retreat

There are really many great things to do. In truth, it would be not efficient apart from those few fights when you have ample time to prepare before, but would be classy as hell.

1- The True Immortal: Lore Bard 10, the 3 aforementioned, Bearbarian 3, Draconic Sorcerer 3. Build Dexterity and Constitution, use Extended Metamagic to spend 2 full minutes buffing yourself.

2- The Undisputed Challenger: go Crown Paladin 9, pick up Sorcerer (Haste and Extended), stack Warding Bond, Shield of Faith, Haste, Magic Weapon and Elemental Weapon then compel everyone to fight you by stacking Compelled Duel and Channel Divinity. Or take Lore Bard instead for some other tricks.

3- The Blade of Divine Retribution: Vengeance Paladin + Sorcerer with Extended Metamagic: cast any and every weapon buff, Haste, all smite spells, and unleash a brutal surge of afflictions on your enemy.

4- The One that Grappled All: Lore Bard 7 (Expertise, Enhance Ability, Enlarge, Spirit Guardians, Greater Invisibility) paired with Land Druid 6 (Spike Growth, Haste, unpaired movement in plants), Swashbuckler Rogue 3 (better Initiative, Cunning Action), Life Cleric 1 and Open Hand Monk X for even extra mobility (or Bearbarian 5 for "just" 10 more feet but more resilience). The simplest overkill build: stack whatever move bonus you can (racial + class + Longstrider + Haste) with some defense (Greater Invisibility is best, but otherwise Blur + Shield of Faith is good) and finally Enhance Ability or Enlarge (former better because 1 hour). Now just go grapple 2 enemies at once and run around with them in Spike Growth. Bonus points if...
a) You Shoved them before (so they cannot even stand up)
b) You grabbed Spirit Guardians (so they suffer even more).
c) You picked up the Barbarian UA which deals auto damage to close enemies.
d) You grabbed Fire Shield to make them regret ever trying to disengage. XD
Technically this kind of thing works with all spells affecting environment (notably Walls spells) but Spike Growth has three advantages: low level, 10mn duration, easy to work with friends (technically since it's non-concentration yourself could cast several at once, or work with friends to make a larger area).

5. The Self-Sufficient Army: just pick Lore Bard, stack all Conjuration spells and go happy. Or mix and match any caster having Conjuration spells with Necromancer Wizard (just because you like having undead) or Warlock.
Wonder how the DM would rule: if you can cast several same Conjuration spells (technically they don't "affect" you or anyone else per se so they don't fit the basic rule which governs spell EFFECT stacking, and not spell CASTING), then you could go nuts.

In fact, there are really too many combinations that would utterly break the game once concentration is out of the equation... XD

[RSP]

I think the two best examples are: Extend spell on a Sorcerer to have multiple buffs up all day. And anything dealing with Project Image/Mislead/Invoke Duplicity. Especially ED, as that let's you cast spells out of the illusion while staying safely away (and Invisible?). Basically just have your Double cast Spirit Guardians and romp through the enemy lines without fear of getting attacked.

[Corran]

I think you need action surge for maximum efficiency, as even despite lifting the requirement on concentrtion, action economy is still a limiting factor. So I am suggesting fighter 2/ full caster X (more likely wizard).

An example that comes to mind, is for you to cast wall of fire followed by wall of stone, both in the same round, using action surge. Wall of stone surrounds wall of fire (which is cast so that it casts its heat inwards), and you roast the enemies. Medium rare or well done?

But there ust be other better tricks, especially once you start thinking into the possibilities when you can cast two spells per turn. Action surge will delay your caster levels, but with concentration not being a thing, my gut tells me it's pretty much worth it.