Twinning Planeshift

[Dalebert]

EDIT: It's been resolved to not work. I am still looking for suggestions for a 7th level spell. Leaning toward Teleport.

I'm trying to pick my 7th level sorcerer spell. Suggestions? Whether I pick Plane Shift may depend somewhat on whether it's sometimes twinnable.

Plane Shift has the option of being a single-target banish. It seems to me that if you're using this version of the spell, it would be twinnable. This use of the spell is not capable of more than one target (normally).

For comparison, it's been clarified (I think even in the errata) that spells like Hold Person can be twinned unless you cast them at a higher level when they allow more targets. So this is another case where there is a single-target version of the spell and a multiple-target version.

Thoughts?

[Armok]

Sounds fine to me, I don't see any reason why I wouldn't allow this at my table.

[Erys]

My thinking is, as soon as a spell fails to met the Twin Spell criteria it can no longer be Twinned. So, with Hold Person, the spell is legal until you up cast it; whereas Plane Shift is ineligible right out the gate.*

Similar to how you can't Twin a Scorching Ray, even though you only targeted one dude with it.

But that's just me, YMMV.*

[Dalebert]

My thinking is, as soon as a spell fails to met the Twin Spell criteria it can no longer be Twinned. So, with Hold Person, the spell is legal until you up cast it; whereas Plane Shift is ineligible right out the gate.*

Similar to how you can't Twin a Scorching Ray, even though you only targeted one dude with it.


I don't see the difference between casting the single-target version of Plane Shift and the single-target version of Hold Person. And Scorching Ray doesn't have a single-target version. It has one way you can cast it and that way allows for multiple targets.

It's not just that Plane Shift can be cast on multiples but you can choose to just cast it on one target. There are two completely different uses of it, one of which only allows one target. That should be the only way that's twinnable.

[Erys]

I don't see the difference between casting the single-target version of Plane Shift and the single-target version of Hold Person. And Scorching Ray doesn't have a single-target version. It has one way you can cast it and that way allows for multiple targets.

I feel, to reiterate, once a spell invalidates itself to be twinned- it stays invalid.

In the case of Hold Person, it is legal to twin until you try to up cast it. Once you cast it from a higher level spell slot it becomes ineligible to Twin.

In the case of Plane Shift, it is invalid because you can cast it on your teammates. Narrow casting it offensively doesn't suddenly make it legal to Twin, just like how casting Scorching Ray on one target doesn't allow Twinning.

Edit: typo

[Deleted]

Plane Shift is not twinnable for the same reason Magic Missile or Scorching Ray isn't able to be twinned. Yes you may target only one creature with Plane Shift, but you can target more than one creature with Plane Shift.

Your ability to choose more than one target is the issue.

Twinned Spell

When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).

To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.

Planshift

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a forked, metal rod worth at least 250 gp, attuned to a particular plane of existence)
Duration: Instantaneous

You and up to eight willing creatures who link hands in a circle are transported to a different plane of existence. You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells, and you appear in or near that destination. If you are trying to reach the City of Brass, for example, you might arrive in its Street of Steel, before its Gate of Ashes, or looking at the city from across the Sea of Fire, at the GM’s discretion.

Alternatively, if you know the sigil sequence of a teleportation circle on another plane of existence, this spell can take you to that circle. If the teleportation circle is too small to hold all the creatures you transported, they appear in the closest unoccupied spaces next to the circle.

You can use this spell to banish an unwilling creature to another plane. Choose a creature within your reach and make a melee spell attack against it. On a hit, the creature must make a Charisma saving throw. If the creature fails this save, it is transported to a random location on the plane of existence you specify. A creature so transported must find its own way back to your current plane of existence.

====

That being said, a DM may allow you to twin the second, more offensive, part of the spell (I would). But the spell at its base level is castable on more than one creature and so invalidates itself from Twin spell.

[Dalebert]

To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.


Okay. I should have looked at the exact wording. It does make a specific exception for those cases that doesn't apply to Plane Shift.

This makes Plane Shift a little less appealing as my 7th level choice.

[Deleted]

Okay. I should have looked at the exact wording. It does make a specific exception for those cases that doesn't apply to Plane Shift.

This makes Plane Shift a little less appealing as my 7th level choice.

Ask your DM first about Twin Plane Shift.

What metamagic do you have outside of Twin?

I've always like the Etherealness spell. Lots shenanigans with that one.


Random Note: Reverse Gravity should have a lower level spell version that effects one creature.

[Dalebert]

Ask your DM first about Twin Plane Shift.

I play AL so DMs are constantly changing. I'm going to assume it will usually not be allowed.


What metamagic do you have outside of Twin?

Subtle and Quicken.


I've always like the Etherealness spell. Lots shenanigans with that one.

I was discouraged because you can't pop back and forth at all but I suppose it would be amazing for scouting or even sneaking into somewhere.

I hate Reverse Gravity. Seems very over-rated.

[Deleted]

I play AL so DMs are constantly changing. I'm going to assume it will usually not be allowed.



Subtle and Quicken.



I was discouraged because you can't pop back and forth at all but I suppose it would be amazing for scouting or even sneaking into somewhere.

I hate Reverse Gravity. Seems very over-rated.

I always saw Ethrealness as a good trap setting spell.

Action: Pulls lever to release the kraken (and lock the doors)... Bonus action quicken Ethrealness.

At higher levels you should be able to motivate bad guys to come get you.