The Tekumel/Glorantha tradition of Fantasy

[Yora]

Tekumel and Glorantha are two fantasy settings that both reached the public in the mid-70s, just when RPGs became a thing. Tekumel by M.A.R. Barker is the world of Empire of the Petal Throne, which got published by TSR, and Glorantha is the setting of RuneQuest by Greg Stafford, but they had both been working on the worlds for a good time before turning them into game settings, and apparently completely independent of each other.

I am only passingly familiar with either of them, but they seem to have many similarities, both from brief looks and what people are saying about them. They also have an approach to fantasy that is distinctively different from the mainstream Tolkien tradition. Settings I am much more familiar with but go for a similar aesthetic are Planescape and Tamriel from The Elder Scrolls (the later of which being directly inspired by Glorantha). In Morrowind these "unconventional" aspects are by far the most pronounced. Dark Sun might be a borderline case, being almost a fantasy adaptation from the planetary romance world Barsoom by Edgar Burroughs.

It's hard to describe and more a case of "I know it when I see it", but I hope anyone familiar with three of these examples gets what I am talking about. I've seen all these settings described as "baroque". Which Wikipedia says is "a period of artistic style which used exaggerated motion and clear, easily interpreted detail to produce drama, tension, exuberance, and grandeur in sculpture, painting, architecture, literature, dance, theater, and music". Yeah, that's sounds about right.

What I am wondering is if there's any established term of the trade for this style or aesthetic of fantasy worlds? I know four pretty famous examples myself and there surely are a much greater number of obscure ones as well, so that'd be ground enough to have a collective term for them.

And what about the works of Clark Ashton Smith? I think Hyperborea might actually be the founder of this style but they are a relatively short body of work to say for sure. I have not read any Zothique stories yet; do they also follow this aesthetic?

[Ranxerox]

When Tolkien invented Middle-earth it wasn't mainstream. It was something new and different and very baroque in its level of complexity and detail. Just saying that it should not be excluded from this the conversation just because a gazillion writers since have copied it it.

[Lord Raziere]

If Tamriel counts, then I might know what your talking about:
-Lets see, magic being a mythical thing that while understandable as a consistent thing to an extent, has certain points where consistent understanding breaks down and it does things beyond our ability to comprehend in true mythic fashion?
-Diverse varied cultures with their own myths and beliefs, with little to no black and white morality, only different points of view?
-high powered, but very sober in attitude?
-dealing with spiritual entities with alien rules and desires that don't match humanities?
-Emphasis on actual politics and conflicts over any contrived cosmic clash of good and evil?
-despite it all, protagonist is still this heroic person with abilities beyond most mortals?

hm, I think the term is just straight up "Sword And Sorcery". the tolkien tradition is called "High Fantasy", as it emphasizes the conflict of cosmic good and evil, the hero being good for goodness sake, and so on.

[Fri]

How close it is to "Weird Fantasy?" You know China Mievill'es Un Lun Dun, Clive Barker's Abarat, maybe to lesser extent, Max Gladstone's Craftverse?

[Rakaydos]

Isnt Dark Sun pretty close to Tekumel in concept? Or am I confused?

[Lord Raziere]

How close it is to "Weird Fantasy?" You know China Mievill'es Un Lun Dun, Clive Barker's Abarat, maybe to lesser extent, Max Gladstone's Craftverse?

I only know of Abarat, and honestly Abarat seems TOO out there to be the genre of which Yora speaks. If the things of which Yora speaks has mythic tones in the form of say, rivers you wade through, then Abarat is going into the ocean and taking a full nose dive into the very bottom of the sea in terms of mythic weirdness. Myths can be weird, but not "the whole world is a bunch of islands that are always a certain hour of the day, with an island for each hour" weird. The genre Yora is talking about, while having its mythic weirdness, also has a certain grounding in stark realities of ancient politics and the nature of their cultures.

Basically it balances out meeting stuff like the Daedra or strange animal-headed gods who want you to do certain thing with facts like "your from this culture and everyone hates you for being sorcerers" or "your from this region which means you probably this, this and that." and so on. Which is why I say it has a sober attitude. It may dip into mythical weirdness, but the world in such a genre is one closer to A Song of Ice and Fire than anything else, with less grimdark and more Magic and The Hero Is An Exception.

[Yora]

When Tolkien invented Middle-earth it wasn't mainstream. It was something new and different and very baroque in its level of complexity and detail. Just saying that it should not be excluded from this the conversation just because a gazillion writers since have copied it it.
That's not what I want to talk about, though. Middle-Earth does have a good degree of complexity and mythology, but it's a world that is placed pretty much in the central European backyard with a very European culture and Christian theology (if you think of the gods as archangels).

From a structual perspective Tolkien and Barker did very similar things but using drastically different aesthetics. It's this different aesthetical tradition that I want to talk about.


If Tamriel counts, then I might know what your talking about:
[...]
-high powered, but very sober in attitude?
[...]
-Emphasis on actual politics and conflicts over any contrived cosmic clash of good and evil?
-despite it all, protagonist is still this heroic person with abilities beyond most mortals?
These elements I don't really see myself. I guess you could do it, but Smith's Hyperborea or Planescape are both good examples where this isn't the case. The last two items are also mostly about plot and I think not something that is built into the setting.

Worlds of this style are popular in Sword & Sorcery, but Jirel of Joiry and The Witcher don't have it, and I think Fafhrd and Gray Mouser don't really have it either.


How close it is to "Weird Fantasy?" You know China Mievill'es Un Lun Dun, Clive Barker's Abarat, maybe to lesser extent, Max Gladstone's Craftverse?
Perhaps there's some overlap, but intuitively I'd associate Weird Fantasy with Lovecraftian themes and disturbing horror.


Isnt Dark Sun pretty close to Tekumel in concept? Or am I confused?
Barely familiar with Tekumel, but I think it's the case.

Dark Sun is a bit simple and straightforward compared to the other works I mentioned, but I think it does go for a similar style without much doubt.

[endoperez]

It's very heavy reading so I still haven't gotten into it, but Malazan (books of the fallen) might be this. I'm only working on my own hazy understanding so it's probably better to research it on your own.

In Raymond E. Feist's books, there's an alternate world, Kelewan, beyond a portal. Kelewan was inspired by Tekumel. In the two-parter Magician: Apprentice & Magician: Master (sometimes published as a single book) the later book takes place partly in Kelewan. There's also a single trilogy that is set in there written by Raymond E. Feist and Janny Wurts, starting with Daugher of the Empire.

That's all I can think of, though. Maybe Warhammer Fantasy world applies?

Dark Sun is in some ways a fantasy version of John Carter / Barsoom / Mars series by Edgar Rice Burroughs. Once upon a time, there was an adventure subgenre known as sword & planet, similar to sword & sorcery but it takes place in an alien planet. It inspired many other things that later influenced D&D, like Jack Vance. It's more or less post-apocalyptic fantasy world with emphasis on non-human races & cultures, which has some similarities to Glorantha, but those are mostly superficial. Other sword & planet books might have approached it differently, and if the focus was on world development, it might be close to what you want. TvTropes lists something similar under "Planetary Romance".

Speaking of Glorantha, there's a cool game based on the setting called King of Dragon Pass. It's a unique visual novel / strategy / tribe simulation game. The only game of its kind, as far as I know, and could be an interesting introduction to Glorantha for people who are interested to learn more.

[Hiro Protagonest]

King of Dragon Pass is the only way I know of Glorantha. It's a good way to learn about the Orlanthi Barbarians, but otherwise it doesn't shed much light on the setting at large. Lunar Empire to the north, Pharaoh to the south, a northern people similar to the Orlanthi, Mongolians who worship the sun, bunch of different pantheons, bunch of different magics.

Also I know it takes place in the "past," and later the creatures of chaos actually evolve into something civilized. But the game itself doesn't tell you that.

There's also some history about Dragon Pass itself and a couple other things that the tribe you play never actually learns, it's just kinda... there, in the main menu.

[tensai_oni]

My experience with Glorantha is limited to King of Dragon Pass too.

I wouldn't really call it baroque. Rather, it's a highly mystical setting, where the sphere of the divine, supernatural and the mythological interacts with everyday life, and I don't mean the fact that magic and weird creatures exist, but rather that actions of normal people can influence or be influenced by the divine. Vision quests, deeds strengthening or weakening clan magic, and so on.

I can see how Glorantha was an inspiration for Elder Scrolls, but I also see similarities with Earthdawn, the old tabletop RPG setting. In Earthdawn, everything (people, objects, even places) has its own individual Pattern which is the more complex the deeper its history, and you could attune to it or manipulate it which often required knowledge of history and past deeds, or recreation of those. It's less divine-centric, but focus on in-universe legends and vision quests is there too.

[Cespenar]

The closest thing is High Fantasy, but especially Planescape and Morrowind certainly do have a certain "know it when you see it" feel outside of your typical High Fantasy examples.

Maybe we can make something up, like Mystic Fantasy? Or Higher Fantasy? :smalltongue:

[tantric]

from literature, books with Tolkien style non-humans, a pseudo- Mideval setting and/or wizards are fantasy. a decade or so back, a group of authors started writing books that were fantastical in nature, but had none of those things and their sub-genre came to be called 'new weird'. the epitome of this is china mieville's 'Perdido St. Station' - the main character is, basically, a mad scientist. his lover is a khepri, a race with human bodies and giant beetles instead of human heads. the mad scientist is contract to make a flying machine for a garuda=bird person whose wings have been cut off (but he doesn't know they were cut off because he raped someone). while this is going on a crazy drug dealer name mr. motley who is a 'remade' meaning a person who is punished by the courts in the city by have hateful biomancy transformations done on him (this is standard in that city) has acquired these hideous psychic vampire monsters called 'slake moths' that actually drain your INT because after they eat a mind they **** out this really fun drug (called 'dream ****'). one of the slake moths gets free and is terrorizing the city, so the city leaders first try to make a deal with hell and when that doesn't work, make a deal with the 'handlingers' which are hideously magically power parasitic beings shaped like hands - that attach to their host like a hand stuck on the victim's back......throughout the book, there's a strong pro-revolutionary socialist theme. just because.

to me, dark sun and tekumel are new weird, not fantasy.

[Closet_Skeleton]

All I know about Empire of the Petal Throne is a story from a old RPG magazine my father once read.

One of the player characters insulted a town guard by mooning him, leapt onto his slain beast and rode off.

The DM then informed the player that a slain beast was a bizarre beast of burden equivalent to an oxen and therefore was probably extremely slow. The town guards then caught up with the player's character and arrested him.

The point was apparently that strange and unfamiliar settings are not necessarily good environments for jumping into.

[Yora]

When using them as campaign settings, there are some additional considerations to be taken into account, which you don't have with standard fantasy settings. That doesn't make them any more or less suited for that purpose, it just takes a little extra effort and time. Which can very much be worth it if you intend for the players to encounter surprises about the world

And I think if it's presented well, it also becomes more attractive for people to get deeply invested into it because it's something new to them.

I had not really thought about this part, but Mystic/Mythic Fantasy might not actually be that bad, as the majority of these settings do have a strong supernatural element and very blurry lines between the mundane and the divine.Dark Sun would be the outlier here, and it might actually be the reason why I wasn't fully sure if it's really part of this group.

[Cespenar]

from literature, books with Tolkien style non-humans, a pseudo- Mideval setting and/or wizards are fantasy. a decade or so back, a group of authors started writing books that were fantastical in nature, but had none of those things and their sub-genre came to be called 'new weird'. the epitome of this is china mieville's 'Perdido St. Station' - the main character is, basically, a mad scientist. his lover is a khepri, a race with human bodies and giant beetles instead of human heads. the mad scientist is contract to make a flying machine for a garuda=bird person whose wings have been cut off (but he doesn't know they were cut off because he raped someone). while this is going on a crazy drug dealer name mr. motley who is a 'remade' meaning a person who is punished by the courts in the city by have hateful biomancy transformations done on him (this is standard in that city) has acquired these hideous psychic vampire monsters called 'slake moths' that actually drain your INT because after they eat a mind they **** out this really fun drug (called 'dream ****'). one of the slake moths gets free and is terrorizing the city, so the city leaders first try to make a deal with hell and when that doesn't work, make a deal with the 'handlingers' which are hideously magically power parasitic beings shaped like hands - that attach to their host like a hand stuck on the victim's back......throughout the book, there's a strong pro-revolutionary socialist theme. just because.

to me, dark sun and tekumel are new weird, not fantasy.

New Weird fits Mieville's or Gaiman's works, but not Dark Sun, Planescape or Morrowind, in my opinion. They lack the intentional existentialist unease that those guys' works bring. Dark Sun is closer to post-apo if anything.


I had not really thought about this part, but Mystic/Mythic Fantasy might not actually be that bad, as the majority of these settings do have a strong supernatural element and very blurry lines between the mundane and the divine.Dark Sun would be the outlier here, and it might actually be the reason why I wasn't fully sure if it's really part of this group.

Wikipedia puts Dark Sun as Dying Earth fantasy, for what it's worth.

Also, Mythic fiction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythic_fiction) apparently already exists. But Mystic Fantasy is still free. :smalltongue: