Benchmark core wizards (or other casters)

[Gusmo]

Has anyone built a benchmark core wizard (with or without DMG PRCs) so that people can see the lunacy capable within core? Or cleric or druid, wizards just seem to get picked on the most for whatever reason. Like there was a this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512806-Can-a-fighter-take-off-a-mage-in-a-perfect-fight) recently, and countless others before it. After all these years, I had expected there to be builds that people could just immediately link to, handbook style, and say 'if it doesn't beat this, go back to the drawing board.' There are tons of non-core ones like Cindy, the Mailman, or Stutter Caster, but I'm not aware of any core options. If there isn't one out there, I'd be interested in making one. Maybe something a little out of the box, like wizard7/loremaster10/archmage3, (who completes loremaster?!), or maybe even wizard3/cleric3/theurge10/something3. Maybe an arcane trickster and eldritch knight build, too! Any of the builds would by default walk astrally projected around as a solar (via shapechange) with an AC of 60 or so. Combined with a solar's regeneration, should keep most of the riff raff away.

[Eldariel]

The best Core-build is probably Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10/Loremaster 1/Archmage 4. Loremaster mostly for UMD in class. Red Wizard/Circle Magic (use Simulacrums or such if you don't have a ready access to an order) is just leaps and bounds ahead of anything else in Core.

However, building a caster is easy. It's the spell selection, buff sequence, minionmancy and such that takes all the time.

[Cosi]

Building a crazy optimized caster is not that hard, really. You just use one of the four or five different tricks for gaining infinite power, then you walk around having infinite power.

The more interesting question is building a caster that is merely "pretty good". There are a bunch of different ways to do that, and benchmarking which ones you think are a good place for Wizards to be is potentially worth doing.

The peak core Wizard prepares planar binding and magic circle, calls an Efreet, makes two wishes on its behalf in exchange for a Ring of Three Wishes with infinite stored XP (or just a ring of infinite wishes), and then has all the possible power.

[Coidzor]

However, building a caster is easy. It's the spell selection, buff sequence, minionmancy and such that takes all the time.


The more interesting question is building a caster that is merely "pretty good". There are a bunch of different ways to do that, and benchmarking which ones you think are a good place for Wizards to be is potentially worth doing.

I'd certainly be interested to see someone walk through the process or the like.

[Cosi]

I'd certainly be interested to see someone walk through the process or the like.

Some notes:

First, the Wizard class is only 5th levels long.

1st: You get to specialize, and there are some nice ACFs.

Specialization:
Abjuration -- Almost everything you'd want Abjuration for is something the party Cleric can do. Don't specialize.
Conjuration -- This school is insane. You get low level options, high level options, and cheese. Specialize. Focused Specialist is also good.
Divination -- Specialization is good because you can drop only Evocation and get free spells, which you can fill with Divinations. Weakened if you can get Spontaneous Divination.
Enchantment -- Enchantment and Illusion are functionally very similar. They hose people with low will saves and bad defenses, and their utility is dependent on the DM. Enchantment has a higher ceiling (infinite charmed army), Illusion has a lower floor (shadow conjuration). Specialization would be fine, but Beguilers exist. Ban one, but not both.
Evocation -- There are spells there that are good, particularly in high OP games, but they're few and far between. Ban.
Illusion -- See Enchantment.
Necromancy -- Necromancy has everything. Save-or-Dies, Minionmancy, utility. You can find something to fill all the slots you get, but you can also find replacements. Also, Dread Necromancers exist.
Transmutation -- Also insane. Might not be worth it if you'd have to figure out how polymorph spells really work (seriously, it's like four layers of inheritance before even know which arguments you can have). Specialize. Focused Specialist is also good.

In summary, Conjuration and Transmutation are good, Divination is good (but less so if you have access to Spontaneous Divination), Illusion, Enchantment, and Necromancy are all good but generally if you want to cast a bunch of spells from one of those schools, you can just play a Beguiler or a Dread Necromancer.

The natural alternative to Specialization is Domain Wizard + Elven Generalist, which gets you two extra spells per day of your highest level for free. That's a good deal.

The familiar is good for random utility. The only bonus I remember standing out is the Hummingbirds bonus to initiative (if you go for that, Elf Generalist can double the bonus).

If you're starting at 1st level, you may want to put some thought into using your 0th level slots offensively. Gnome Illusionist, Eschew Materials + launch bolt, or Cloud Conjuration + caltrops all do work.

Good ACFs:
-If you're a Conjurer, Abrupt Jaunt is worth taking
-If you're bailing before 5th, want a second Fighter Bonus feat, or can chain into Spontaneous Divination, you can trade Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative
-Gnome Illusionist lets you cast silent image as a 0th level spell, which is great, especially if your DM rules favorably on Illusions or you fight a lot of mindless stuff
-If you want Augment Summoning, you can get it for free in place of Scribe Scroll as a Conjurer

5th: You get a bonus feat. You can either trade it for Spontaneous Divination, or spend it to get into a PrC you want.

6th: You get to take the first level in whatever PrC you want. Anything that gets you full casting and more than one feat every five levels is a win. Obviously Incantatrix is nuts, but even Mage of the Arcane Order is fine.

At this point you can just take levels in a PrC until the game or the PrC ends. If the PrC ends, you can jump into Archmage or something.

Feats
-Metamagic -- Mostly sucks if you pay full freight (Extend/Persist are okay for duration cheese, Sculpt is okay), but PrCs, feats, and rods let you get that down to free, and free is fine.
-Reserve Feats -- Not good, but if you're playing in a low OP group it can give you something to do so it looks like you're contributing
-Item Creation -- Fine, but nothing exceptional.
-Uncanny Forethought -- Spontaneous Casting + Casting Time Reduction. Both of those are good.
-Versatile Spellcaster -- Voltroning it with Spontaneous Divination makes Sorcerers cry.
-Improved Familiar -- Grabbing a Mirror Mephit gives you simulacrum at 7th level.

Spells
-A decent list of spells (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=31962)
-Spells that reduce casting time can let you do some pretty good tricks. major creation is a good utility spell. Emulating major creation with Shadow Illusion (or whichever shadow conjuration spell does that) lets you create a adamantine cage full of lava or poison.
-A huge swath of utility spells (planar binding, wall of stone, fabricate, teleport) come online at 9th level.
-secret page can replace scribing costs.

PrCs
-S Tier: Incantatrix, Shadowcraft Mage, Red Wizard, etc (pretty sure these are mostly well known).
-As mentioned, anything that progresses casting fully is good.
-Theurges are okay if you only have to give up one level to get in.

Same Builds:
Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/Archmage 5 -- Pretty much a generic utility build. You can layer pretty much any Wizard options on top.
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 -- You get some Rogue stuff, and almost full casting. If the party needs a stealth type, this works pretty well.
Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 10/Incantatrix 5 -- You get two kinds of casting, and two kinds of free metamagic. With Illumain and Practiced Spellcaster you lose only a single caster level. Can also swap in other PrCs at the end (e.g. War Weaver).
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Primal Scholar 5/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 -- Again, the last levels are pretty variable. Mostly you're here for free metamagic and infinite low level spells.
Binder 1/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10/Incantatrix 6 -- Once more, the build runs less than 20 levels and you have free levels. You get some free metamagic, and random Binder utility. You can get in without Binder levels, but that arguably doesn't get you binding progression.

[Gusmo]

The more interesting question is building a caster that is merely "pretty good". There are a bunch of different ways to do that, and benchmarking which ones you think are a good place for Wizards to be is potentially worth doing.

The peak core Wizard prepares planar binding and magic circle, calls an Efreet, makes two wishes on its behalf in exchange for a Ring of Three Wishes with infinite stored XP (or just a ring of infinite wishes), and then has all the possible power.

That's pretty much where I'm at. I'm leaning towards making the build self-contained, so that every magic item can be crafted by the wizard on their own. Even if most arguments against getting wishes from outsiders are stupid, at minimum they still require the DM to come in and play the part of the outsider. I'd be looking to remove any such instance where the DM needs to come into the game, even if there are very explicit rules about how the character they're playing should act.

Astral projection allows for easy duplication, so this isn't hard to take to ridiculous levels. But I'd probably still adhere to WBL, basically on a volunteer basis, though even that requires figuring out the valuation of certain things. For instance, if you scribe up 5 scrolls of wish yourself, then reuse them via astral projection to get a full set of inherent bonuses, how should that count against WBL? The market value of 35 scrolls (30 for the inherent bonuses, then the 5 scrolls still exist afterwards)? The market value of 5 scrolls? The GP cost to create 5 scrolls? Personally I think the GP cost to create 5 scrolls, as exp costs for crafting only really start to set you backwards if you're doing tons of it - which I might be, with these builds, so I'd need to figure out how much exp can be sunk into crafting on a level by level basis before it might realistically start putting you behind the party.

Edit: yeah, if you figure you're spending 700,000 GP crafting stuff, that's 56,000 experience in crafting right there, and I hadn't planned on counting scrolls and other stuff you've created and consumed or discarded before reaching your zenith of power. You hit level 20 at 190,000 experience, for reference.

[Telok]

A nice PO build that I'm doing now is elan conjurer wiz 5, mage of the arcane order 10, whatever sounds fun 5. Ban enchantment and one of necro or evoke, take the abrupt jaunt acf, extend spell, metamagic school focus, and the feat tax for the prc, psionic body, and a bunch of psionic talent. You get abberation type, all simple weapons, immedate teleports, using power points to boost saves or ablate damage, and bonus hit points.

[Gusmo]

So for WBL, I think a reasonable approach, frankly even somewhat harsher than necessary, would be to adhere to a 760,000 GP market price limit for character wealth, with some exceptions. Stuff you get for free from class features would not count towards this, namely, your spellbook. The price for 5 scrolls of wish would count against the 760,000 GP limit, which would then be used to generate inherent bonuses for all stats via astral projection, retaining the scrolls at the end of the process of course. Once reliable astral projection is achieved (IE, you have shapechange), at that point all your scrolls would basically become reusable with each astral projection form, until someone finds and attacks your hideout or gets you out of it. Presumably a warrior in some sort of caster vs. warrior thread.

The inherent bonus/wish/astral projection bonuses are probably the biggest abuse of the rules I'll be committing, I think I'll stick to not getting anything more out of the infinite wish potential I've got going. I'll put craft wondrous item, forge ring (wizardy and evasion), and craft rod (absorption and metamagic rods) down for feats so that anything in the build not found in the course of actually adventuring could feasibly have been crafted instead.

A couple other miscellaneous issues: should I use the almost-certainly-not-RAI interpretation that loremaster and archmage grant 2 free spells per level to my spellbook? Per the PHB glossary, wizards have spells known, and get 2 per level. Also, I'll be making the character sheet in Excel, and will have different shapechange forms in a dropdown menu. What forms should I include? Should I use the Skip Williams interpretation on polymorph/shapechange where your new con modifier affects your HP appropriately for your new form? Or should I keep the HP running off of your base form's con? I firmly believe it's correct to use the con modifier of the form you're in currently as opposed to your base form (and felt that way even before I knew Skip's thought's, too), but I could also include both options.