Let's talk about gishes

[danielxcutter]

Gishes. They're fun, and they're a perfectly viable choice power-wise at well. But while I've seen lots of advice on how to optimize them, I haven't seen that many on how to play them or what people think about them, so I made this thread.

Imo, I think that arcane gishes are relatively more easier to actually play without either cheesing it up or torpedoing your build, compared to CoDzillas. There are plenty of arcane gish-friendly spells, feats, and PrCs, but they're rather spread out across lots of books, so making a really powerful one takes some effort - especially when compared to Druids taking Natural Spell. And unlike divine gishes, you probably aren't casting every spell on your list, so I don't think it's as easy to outshine the other players in mid-op or higher games.

What do you guys think?

[Gruftzwerg]

Let me first say that I really like gishes. I played mostly low to mid lvl gishes.
And here I would like to talk about the downsides of gishes, cause it's a mandatory one and many people forget about it when building their gish.

Action Economy:

Especially at lower levels when your buffs all have a short duration and you are forced to start fights without any buffs. Every buff you want takes a full round (1 standard action) where you didn't contribute to the fight. A Barb could have easily smashed 2-4 enemies in the time you want to buff up 2 spells.
This gets a lil bit better at later levels when your buffs have longer duration and you may start the fight with at least some buff up.
But there will always be short time buffs that you want and that will waste your action for a round. And this doesn't change at later levels. But what changes is, that at later levels more and more fights (may) turn into rockettag fights (depending on DM and party, but it seems to me that this is most common). And than it can get really iffy to justify buffing up if you can't do it right before you start an ambush.
There are some ways/builds that can compensate this to a degree, but for the most people and the most part of leveling even those special builds, you have to deal with this problem.
The only real solution would be "Time Stop", cause any other source of extra action would just intensify the problem. Other extra actions than time stop could be used to directly damage the enemy and would lead to the same situation/problem.

And that's the real difference between good & bad gishes. Some look good on paper but are awful to play. Others look to simple but work much better.

That's the reason why my vote for the best gish goes to:

Warlock (who would thought that^^ you should have guessed it @danielxcutter)
- many and mostly 24h buffs
- can be played as "gish-role" right from lvl 1 (weapon finnese, eldritch glaive, spiderwalk and you are set to go)
- access to (almost) his "own" max dmg potential even without prebuffing
- monk/warlock/enlightened fist splashes are fun to play^^

what do you others think about the action economy of gishes and how do you handle it?

[Nosta]

I love gishes and have played a Duskblade, A switch blade sorcerer , and now a Battle sorcerer and the only reason I am sticking strait to battle sorcerer and not advancing in to something like abjurant champion like I really want is cause my group agreed on what books would be used for the game and I agreed to them before I had my character concept down

I love the idea of gishes and love stuff like arcane strike or anything that allows me to take a spell and turn it in to physical prowess

The way of play them both in flavor and in terms of actual play style is for at least my last two gishes (Made them part of a Magical military)
I Normally use stuff like self buffing spells and arcane strike along with power attack


over all there my favor type of pc or npc and my go to build when I can't think of I go to gishes

[danielxcutter]

Eh, I wouldn't exactly call a Warlock a gish, but it's pretty close. Probably better for playing from earlier levels too.

[danielxcutter]

I love gishes and have played a Duskblade, A switch blade sorcerer , and now a Battle sorcerer and the only reason I am sticking strait to battle sorcerer and not advancing in to something like abjurant champion like I really want is cause my group agreed on what books would be used for the game and I agreed to them before I had my character concept down

I love the idea of gishes and love stuff like arcane strike or anything that allows me to take a spell and turn it in to physical prowess

The way of play them both in flavor and in terms of actual play style is for at least my last two gishes (Made them part of a Magical military)
I Normally use stuff like self buffing spells and arcane strike along with power attack


over all there my favor type of pc or npc and my go to build when I can't think of I go to gishes

Yeah, it might not be CoDzilla or god-wizard, but it's just so fun and cool.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I always thought Druids were the go-to choice if you wanted to melee as a full caster without too much effort or weird combinations. If you don't want to get too cheesy with a Druid, it's easy enough to stick to standard-ish options and tear things apart as a bear with a bear friend who summons bears. Gishes, to me, are the ones that require some combination of fine-tuning and cheese to make it work, as you want a combination of full casting, high BaB or equivalent, and immediate combat readiness.

Of course, they do work quite well with cheese. Incantatrix, for instance, is loads of fun to play as a gish, and you don't even have to give up caster levels at all.

[Gruftzwerg]

Eh, I wouldn't exactly call a Warlock a gish, but it's pretty close. Probably better for playing from earlier levels too.

why not?^^

- casting in light armor
- gets DR
- Fiendish Resilience and Resistance also fit the theme


sure, a pure warlock would be a gish more relying on the arcane part (e.g. compared to Duskblade). But as said, you can play a warlock as gish right from lvl 1 if build right.
Eldritch Glaive and Eldritch Claws enable a lot of possible gish builds.
And once you start to multiclass/prc, warlock gishes become very nice.

[Vaz]

Cleric, Divine Power. Easy.

Alternatively; Any Divine, Contemplative

[weckar]

Between danielxcutter & Gruftzwerg, can we for the purposes ofthis thread determine what a Gish is?

[danielxcutter]

Between danielxcutter & Gruftzwerg, can we for the purposes ofthis thread determine what a Gish is?

Eh... Yeah, I guess we should. For the purpose of this thread, a Gish is a class or combination of classes that is capable of and utilizes both physical combat and magic or a similar source of power, such as psionics, vestiges, or Incarnum.

So yeah, I guess a Warlock's a gish with the right build then.

[Kelb_Panthera]

My go-to for the last little while has been a simple paladin/ crusader/ ruby knight vindicator with battle blessing. It's not the most powerful but by the Stern Lady's bosom the synergies are awesome. The class' fluffs meld beautifully into a righteous zealot for an interesting deity and their mechanics mesh wonderfully with swifts mostly going to the very solid paladin list's spells while the standards are used for the devastation of crusader strikes.

Just wish there were a way to shoe-horn the special mount in there without screwing up the main ability progressions.

Anyway, plays like a dream as long as you and your DM are on the same page with the pally code.

[weckar]

Currently playing a Serenity/Zen Archery : Paladin of Freedom/Electrokineticist. I guess that's a Gish because his main attack method is semi-magical? The whole fire-whip thing but electric? I'm really abusing all aspects of it, let me tell you.

Other than that... I guess since a Paladin wields magic, even if not always offensive magic, that it's kind of a Gish-in-a-can? Not so much as a Duskblade, of course, but...

[Blu]

I might sound cheesy, but my go to gish would probably be cleric (even cloistered works) since Divine power really makes up for bad/medium bba and with divine metamagic to persist you always have your most important buffs online.
You can go cheesy with:
Cast & persist buffs before sleeping, you wake up with 16h left on said buffs plus all your turn and spell slots
Not so cheesy: wake up, cast & persist

[weckar]

You can go cheesy with:
Cast & persist buffs before sleeping, you wake up with 16h left on said buffs plus all your turn and spell slots
Not so cheesy: wake up, cast & persistI don't see how it matters, as you'll have to prepare the spells in the morning with the persist already in place?

[Blu]

I don't see how it matters, as you'll have to prepare the spells in the morning with the persist already in place?
Divine metamagic makes you able to aply persist on the fly, using turn or rebuke uses

[weckar]

Hm, I misread that feat then - I thought you had to expend the turns/rebukes as you prepared the spell.

[SirNibbles]

Gishes are fun to play because they're so much more self-sufficient than regular melee. You don't have to rely on allies for buffs because you are the buffs.
__

It's a bit of a feat tax but you can use God Touched and Divine Channeler (Dragon Magazine #305, page 43) to gain Turn Undead with any class. An Archivist with DMM:Persist can persist all sorts of fun Ranger Spells.

[weckar]

Is there any reason why people use DMM so much, but the Bardic equivalent that burns uses of music comes up not nearly as often? Is it purely because of nightsticks?

[Blu]

Is there any reason why people use DMM so much, but the Bardic equivalent that burns uses of music comes up not nearly as often? Is it purely because of nightsticks?

Because the only way to use high level metamagic is by reducing/avoiding the spell level increase. Most casters do it the way they can. Arcanes have easy metamagic/metamagic school/incantrix/ultimate magus, divines have DMM

It is used so much because it is easy to use. A normal persist costs +6 lvl's, so a DMM[Persist] costs 7 turn uses. A cleric starts with 3 + CHA uses of turn(let's assume 5 uses by day). So for persisting a spell, you only need 2 more uses. Extra turning gets you 4, nightstick gets you 4, a reliquary holy symbol can easily net you 2 more uses.
Assuming a human cleric with 14 CHA and normal WBL you can start persisting spells as early as lvl 3.
And if you put on 2 flaws on the game, cleric start DMM since lvl 1

[Necroticplague]

Is there any reason why people use DMM so much, but the Bardic equivalent that burns uses of music comes up not nearly as often? Is it purely because of nightsticks?

Well, for one thing, Bardic Music is actually useful, while Turn Undead is usually a waste of a class feature. So, most the time, DMM is trade nothing for something, which is a better trade than something for something.

[weckar]

Because the only way to use high level metamagic is by reducing/avoiding the spell level increase. Most casters do it the way they can. Arcanes have easy metamagic/metamagic school/incantrix/ultimate magus, divines have DMM

It is used so much because it is easy to use. A normal persist costs +6 lvl's, so a DMM[Persist] costs 7 turn uses. A cleric starts with 3 + CHA uses of turn(let's assume 5 uses by day). So for persisting a spell, you only need 2 more uses. Extra turning gets you 4, nightstick gets you 4, a reliquary holy symbol can easily net you 2 more uses.
Assuming a human cleric with 14 CHA and normal WBL you can start persisting spells as early as lvl 3.
And if you put on 2 flaws on the game, cleric start DMM since lvl 1 I get that, i do. I'm not saying NOT to use it, but Metamagic Song is nearly equivalent to it, is it not? Although I suppose your example tells us why DMM is so much better: MS cannot be used to cast a metamagicked spell you normally could not.

[Blu]

I get that, i do. I'm not saying NOT to use it, but Metamagic Song is nearly equivalent to it, is it not? Although I suppose your example tells us why DMM is so much better: MS cannot be used to cast a metamagicked spell you normally could not.

Yep, problem is MS is a somewhat balanced feat, while DMM is not...
Metamagic song could really get a little more love :smallfrown:

[weckar]

Here's a Gish Question: Assuming a prepared Vancian Caster Gish - how many caster levels can they reasonably lose and still be competent? Does it matter whether they are Arcane or Divine?

I had a build in my head something like Cleric(Spontaneous Domain: War) 1/Duskblade 3/Wizard X
Channeling and being able to drop any 4th level and higher Wizard spell for Divine Power seems like a decent start? Plus potentially casting in Heavy Armor if you take some Dragon feats...

[Uncle Pine]

Well, for one thing, Bardic Music is actually useful, while Turn Undead is usually a waste of a class feature. So, most the time, DMM is trade nothing for something, which is a better trade than something for something.
This. With DMM you expend 6 uses of <nothing> to persist a spell, but with Metamagic Song you're trading away 6 uses of something like +14d6 extra sonic damage to every attack to all your allies within d10 miles.

[Blu]

Here's a Gish Question: Assuming a prepared Vancian Caster Gish - how many caster levels can they reasonably lose and still be competent? Does it matter whether they are Arcane or Divine?

I had a build in my head something like Cleric(Spontaneous Domain: War) 1/Duskblade 3/Wizard X
Channeling and being able to drop any 4th level and higher Wizard spell for Divine Power seems like a decent start? Plus potentially casting in Heavy Armor if you take some Dragon feats...

Depends on the type of gish... For Duskblades for example, you can't afford losing caster levels.
For a Wizard/Martial gish, you can do with 7,8 lvl spells(maybe 6 even) and still be reasonably competent in the casting part. Altough a boost in caster level is good, the abjurant champion, for example, is one of, if not the best, PrC for gishes since your BBA becomes your CL, besides the other goodies in the Prc.

[Hiro Quester]

Yep, problem is MS is a somewhat balanced feat, while DMM is not...
Metamagic song could really get a little more love :smallfrown:

I played a bard/sublime chord/heartfire fanner Gish a few years ago, and had a lot of love for metamagic song. The limit is that you can't persist spells above 3rd level (or 4th level with easy metamagic).

Also some of the best persist-able spells are not on the bard list; requiring a custom runestaff to attune to right before casting morning buff spells.

The other good thing about a bard gish is that your early combat buffs are ones that benefit your whole party. With a custom magic item of harmonize (bardic music is a move action) and melodic casting feat, you use your first round to sing inspire courage and cast haste, your belt of battle to get an extra move action and sing inspire greatness. Then your duty to your party is largely discharged and you can snowflake wardance your way across the battlefield.

Generally, though one of the best things about playing a Gish is having options (a cha-focused one also has effective social options). You are more likely to have a tool that can contribute meaningfully to every encounter.

Especially if your DM forces you to be economical with spells by having an urgent deadline and so no time to rest between encounters, and many encounters each day. Being able to help a lot with an encounter by buffing the party (e.g. haste) then saving spells by cutting the enemy to pieces with your crystal echoblade is golden.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Is there any reason why people use DMM so much, but the Bardic equivalent that burns uses of music comes up not nearly as often? Is it purely because of nightsticks?
Because Metamagic Song explicitly can't be used to cast spells with an effective level higher than you can cast, so you can't Persistent even a 1st level spell unless you have 7th level slots. DMM can do that, though.

[Dagroth]

Because Metamagic Song explicitly can't be used to cast spells with an effective level higher than you can cast, so you can't Persistent even a 1st level spell unless you have 7th level slots. DMM can do that, though.

Well, Easy Metamagic (Dragon Magazine), Practical Metamagic (Races of the Dragon, needs Dragonblooded), Halruaan Elder 1 (Shining South... needs some dumb feats), Metamagic School Focus (Complete Mage, only 3/day though).

Now you can Persist up to 5th level spells... Arcane Thesis if you've got a specific 6th level spell you really like...

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, Easy Metamagic (Dragon Magazine), Practical Metamagic (Races of the Dragon, needs Dragonblooded), Halruaan Elder 1 (Shining South... needs some dumb feats), Metamagic School Focus (Complete Mage, only 3/day though).

Now you can Persist up to 5th level spells... Arcane Thesis if you've got a specific 6th level spell you really like...
You've also spent eight feats, by my count-- the three you mentioned above, plus Halruuan Adept, Spell Thematics, an item creation feat, Extend Spell, and Persistent Spell. Even Spelldancer only takes six to Persist spells.

[Canine]

I ran a Psychic Warrior in a Pathfinder game for a while, which I enjoyed immensely. There are a variety of swift and immediate powers, combined with longer lasting buffs even at low levels, and psicrystal/vigor/share pain for fun times. Move action to recover focus plus the Vital Strike chain works well together, plus Expanded Knowledge can cherry pick useful powers from other classes, and they gain the ability to manifest a small number of powers as part of melee attacks.

In general I think Dreamscarred Press has done a good job at making a variety of flavorful psionic classes and archetypes that balance powers with physical combat. Tactician and Dread are 9th level manifesters that still have respectable combat , Psychic Warrior is a 6th level manifester more focused on directly integrating combat with powers, and the Marksman is basically a psychic archer Ranger that gets powers at 1st level. The Aegis and Soulknife don't have powers by default, but are a good way for people to dip their toes into the psionic flavor, and they have some archetypes or abilities that open up powers.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Here's a Gish Question: Assuming a prepared Vancian Caster Gish - how many caster levels can they reasonably lose and still be competent? Does it matter whether they are Arcane or Divine?

I had a build in my head something like Cleric(Spontaneous Domain: War) 1/Duskblade 3/Wizard X
Channeling and being able to drop any 4th level and higher Wizard spell for Divine Power seems like a decent start? Plus potentially casting in Heavy Armor if you take some Dragon feats...Generally speaking, the more caster levels you lose, the less competent you're going to be. That build at 5th level, for instance, has level 1 spells along with 3 or 4 BaB depending on whether you're using fractional bonuses. A Duskblade 5 gets more HP, higher level spells (oddly enough), more gish-y features, and an extra attack. A Wizard 5 gets level 3 spells (including level 2 staples like Alter Self and Wraithstrike) to compensate for its slightly lower BaB and HP.

At higher levels, though, wizards have plenty of competence to lose, so to speak. A Wizard/Fighter/EK/Abjurant Champion might lose one or two caster levels and curiously focus on hitting things rather than winning the fight before it even starts, but it merely moves the character from "D&D win button" to "quite good." In your particular example, losing four caster levels clearly isn't optimal, but if a wizard who starts off four levels lower than the party can remain a competent PC, so can the same wizard with four extra hit dice and a couple of useful class features.

I would also say that heavy armor, and casting in heavy armor, is overrated. If you're wearing armor at all instead of replicating its effects with spells, it's for the armor enchantments, not the raw AC bonus. 0% ASF armor exists, so there's little need to burn class features just to cast in heavy armor. Not to mention Polymorph, an arcane gish's best friend, puts a damper on armor dependence in general.

[Particle_Man]

One nice gish is the cleric 3/incarnate 1/Sapphire Hierarch 10. You lose one caster level and gain 11 levels worth of incarnate soulmelds. If you are then allowed to take legacy champion and still dual advance SH levels (and thus cleric/initiator caster/incarnate levels) it can get pretty sick.

On the arcane side, I suppose it depends how much magic you want in your equation. Duskblade seems alright. I wonder if that might become an interesting green star adept, but then you are pretty much leaving the magic behind.

On the psionic side, psychic warrior does a pretty good job right out of the box. War mind is a good prestige class for that.

The paladin/crusader/ruby knight vindicator above has the added advantage that, if you fall from grace hard and become a blackguard you can remain devoted to Wee Jas (in your Mordru way). ;)

On the low tier side, you could be hexblade or soulborn if the party are all very low tier and the DM takes into account that the party is very low tier. Did I mention that this would be low tier? :smallsmile:

[Dagroth]

You've also spent eight feats, by my count-- the three you mentioned above, plus Halruuan Adept, Spell Thematics, an item creation feat, Extend Spell, and Persistent Spell. Even Spelldancer only takes six to Persist spells.

Obviously much easier to do as a Wizard (get Scribe Scroll off the bat and a free Metamagic Feat at level 5)... but it is possible.