What if... magic missiles would require Ranged Attack Roll....

[TekTek]

Hello everyone. Let me first apologize if I posted this rather simplistic question in the wrong section of the site. I be new so hopefully I be forgiven. Anyway, as the title states, what if magic missiles, and possibly other auto-hit and no- save spells, would be required an attack roll to succeed or the target given a form of save to mitigate damage? How would you level it out or "balance" the change? Would you add more damage per level?

Now before people start pounding me with RAW power, please understand that this is more of homebrewing something that I have always felt was needed to standardized similar bolt like spells across the board. I mean fighters follow the same consistency of the rules when it comes to martial combat. Now you could say that once a wizard reaches X level then using magic missiles would be not so important against appropriate level opponents. True. But then again... what if... :smallwink:

Thanks to anyone who would provide constructive feedback/suggestions. Cheers!

[JNAProductions]

You'd have to up the damage considerably. Its whole schtick is not rolling to hit or saves or anything, and its damage is consistent with that.

[Cl0001]

If magic missile required an attack roll, I'd say it'd be a cantrip. It'd basically do the normal 1d4 +1 damage per missile and get 3 of those per time the cantrips scale. I think this would lead it to be pretty annoying though, as you'd be rolling tons of dice every time you roll for attacks or damage.

[JNAProductions]

If magic missile required an attack roll, I'd say it'd be a cantrip. It'd basically do the normal 1d4 +1 damage per missile and get 3 of those per time the cantrips scale. I think this would lead it to be pretty annoying though, as you'd be rolling tons of dice every time you roll for attacks or damage.

3d4+3 per cantrip scale? You do realize that averages to 10.5, equal to Eldritch Blast WITH Agonizing Blast?

[DragonSorcererX]

I prefer the normal way because you can make an Infinite Wishlacrum Army and make all of them use all of their slots from highest to lowest targetting anything within range with Magic Missile (so, if you manage to meet Lord Ao...) and dealing thousands and thousands of damage in one turn (while it is not as accessible as the Commoner Rail Gun, it is much more powerful).

[Silavor]

Page 283/284 of the DMG will be your friend here. Magic Missile is on par with where its spell damage should be. Changing it to an attack roll, where the spell does no damage on a miss, just requires you to bump the damage up by 25%. Giving it a fourth dart is probably the easiest way to boost the average damage to the recommended amount.

Numbers, for those who care:
3d4+3 averages out to 10.5, pretty close to the recommended 11 damage of a 1st level spell that always deals some form of damage.
4d4+4 averages out to 14, which is also pretty close to the recommended 13.75 damage of a 1st level spell that can miss.

[TekTek]

You'd have to up the damage considerably. Its whole schtick is not rolling to hit or saves or anything, and its damage is consistent with that.

Agree and thanks for the direction.


I prefer the normal way because you can make an Infinite Wishlacrum Army and make all of them use all of their slots from highest to lowest targetting anything within range with Magic Missile (so, if you manage to meet Lord Ao...) and dealing thousands and thousands of damage in one turn (while it is not as accessible as the Commoner Rail Gun, it is much more powerful).

Love this answer. :smallcool:


Page 283/284 of the DMG will be your friend here. Magic Missile is on par with where its spell damage should be. Changing it to an attack roll, where the spell does no damage on a miss, just requires you to bump the damage up by 25%. Giving it a fourth dart is probably the easiest way to boost the average damage to the recommended amount.

Numbers, for those who care:
3d4+3 averages out to 10.5, pretty close to the recommended 11 damage of a 1st level spell that always deals some form of damage.
4d4+4 averages out to 14, which is also pretty close to the recommended 13.75 damage of a 1st level spell that can miss.

Thank you for pointing DMG reference and an even bigger thanks for providing a concrete perspective. Could this be applied as...
1) multiple missiles, multiple Ranged Attack Roll for each missile? (dramatic but dice heavy)
2) single missile, single Ranged Attack Roll (one shot deal)

I shall try the first option out and see how my players react on the mechanics on both sides of the fence.

[Squiddish]

1. The point of magic missile is that it always hits. Period. To compensate, it does minuscule damage.
2. If you make a magic missile that requires an attack roll, increasing the damage to compensate, you have... a completely generic blasting spell.

It would also remove the wizard's "backup spell", and means that wizards could become less useful in the mid-level range, or against heavily armored enemies.

Also, I really don't like having to roll that much dice, but that's just me.

[Cl0001]

3d4+3 per cantrip scale? You do realize that averages to 10.5, equal to Eldritch Blast WITH Agonizing Blast?

I said if it were to require an attack roll I'd move it down to being a cantrip. With how it would work, it would look and feel like a cantrip. Yes, I do realize it has a high damage output, but that's assuming all missiles hit. You also don't take into account the fact that this would probably just stop casters from picking up EB through feats or multiclassing, which in my opinion is good as it stops people from taking the spell with a charisma >14. But fine, drop the extra +1 to all hits and it's back down quite a bit. Furthermore, without changing the actual spell effects how could you consider it a first level spell? It's damage would be abysmal and would in general be a waste of a spell slot.

[Vaz]

I prefer the normal way because you can make an Infinite Wishlacrum Army and make all of them use all of their slots from highest to lowest targetting anything within range with Magic Missile (so, if you manage to meet Lord Ao...) and dealing thousands and thousands of damage in one turn (while it is not as accessible as the Commoner Rail Gun, it is much more powerful).

Yeh this never happens in a game.

[JNAProductions]

I said if it were to require an attack roll I'd move it down to being a cantrip. With how it would work, it would look and feel like a cantrip. Yes, I do realize it has a high damage output, but that's assuming all missiles hit. You also don't take into account the fact that this would probably just stop casters from picking up EB through feats or multiclassing, which in my opinion is good as it stops people from taking the spell with a charisma >14. But fine, drop the extra +1 to all hits and it's back down quite a bit. Furthermore, without changing the actual spell effects how could you consider it a first level spell? It's damage would be abysmal and would in general be a waste of a spell slot.

You'd be giving any caster with Magic Missile an option equal to a Warlock. Compare it to other cantrips-they deal, at best, 5.5 per scale, where yours does 10.5. (Acid Splash being the exception, of course.) And to-hit should be the same on Eldritch Blast or Magic Missile. I'd actually give the edge to MM-with three attack rolls per scale, you're more likely to deal SOME damage, rather than none.

[Deleted]

4e did this and people lost their damn minds.

It was shameful how upset grown men got over this aspect.