Parallel choices

[Recursive]

I find it interesting that just about every major character on the good guys' side has faced the same tough[1] choice recently: whether to abandon someone or something they were trying to save, in favor of survival. Except for Roy, they've all chosen to flee and fight another day...but comparing the way they bowed to the inevitable says a lot about their characters:

Vaarsuvius: (abandoning the soldiers at the breach) *poof* "I am sorry."
Hinjo: (grudgingly abandoning his city) "Fine. We'll retreat."
Elan: (reluctantly abandoning the Redshirts) "But you two don't have names!"
Belkar: (abandoning O'Chul) "I nominate you, on account of you not being me."
Haley: (abandoning O'Chul) "Damn it! DAMN IT!"

and, of course, representing the opposite choice:

Roy: (not abandoning the fight against Xykon) "talk talk talk talk talk talk" *KABOOM!* "talk talk talk talk talk talk" *SPLAT!*

Durkon's the only one who hasn't had a memorable moment of decision yet on this issue (though, like everyone else, he helped talk Hinjo down from Heroic Last Stand mode). Maybe his moment is coming soon...


[1] All right, for Belkar it wasn't tough.

[Nomadic]

I have to disagree on the following grounds...*ahem*

:durkon: The trees be attackin, run for yer lives!!!

[Siwenna]

Well, Vaarsuvius has always struck me as pretty neutral. Yes, turning invisible wasn't the most brave/heroic/foolish thing to do, but it was the smartest. I do see what you mean, though.

Hinjo was doing what he had to do, putting what was good for the city above his own pride and sense of honor. He fought for the city and killed a bunch of hobgoblins, but Azure city fell anyways. He and the OOTS could have killed a couple hundred hob goblins, sure, but it wouldn't have made a difference. The city was destroyed, almost everyone not on a ship was killed. If they regroup and get some help from Azure City's allies then maybe they can get it back, but staying would have been futile. Hinjo was being Lawful Good instead of Lawful Stupid.

Elan's choice wasn't that big a deal, and he was just doing as he was told. He was also obviously familiar with idea of the brave-but-unimportant characters dying to save the hero. Again, I see what you mean, but I think Elan is the most good character.

As for Belkar, very true, and a good illustration of his alignment.

Haley's decision wasn't the most morally wonderful option, but it wasn't that bad. If she went back to get O-chul, everyone would have probably been killed, including him.

Roy, well, you can put his decision in a different light. Yes he went after Xykon. The extremely high level lich. By jumping on his dragon. It was, frankly, suicidal. Roy has been shown as fairly intelligent and wise. He should have known better, and stayed to fight the hobgoblins. Instead he jumped on the friggen' dragon's back to fight the sorceror with Meteor Swarm. And as much as Roy has been going on about not caring about the blood oath, I think a good bit of his motivation is wanting to please his daddy.

So, while everyone has had to decide whether or not to abandon something, I think most of them made the smartest, best decision. Belkar was certainly evil, but we know his alignment. (Another thing to keep in mind: Roy is dead with an arrow in his crotch. Everyone else is alive and reasonably well.)

[Recursive]

So, while everyone has had to decide whether or not to abandon something, I think most of them made the smartest, best decision. Belkar was certainly evil, but we know his alignment.
Oh, by all means. I wasn't at all trying to paint everyone as morally equivalent to Belkar.

They're all doing what they have to do. The real differences in their character are seen in the way they react to having to abandon what they'd tried to save.

It's the OOTS version of the Kobayashi Maru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru) scenario.

[Bocc Kob]

So even though everyone (except Roy) made the same choice, Belkar is the only "bad" one because he didn't rattle off a fake apology? :smallconfused:

[Aris Katsaris]

So even though everyone (except Roy) made the same choice, Belkar is the only "bad" one because he didn't rattle off a fake apology? :smallconfused:

He is the only evil one, not because he didn't rattle off a "fake apology" but rather because any apology from him would have been fake.

It's a subtle distinction, don't tire your mind. I don't expect you to understand the difference in characters that makes Haley feel the need to curse in frustration, and Belkar not even bat an eyelid. Haley is obviously being "fake" in her self-anger, and Belkar is obviously being sincere in his indifference, and that obviously makes Belkar the better of the two, right?

What is it with people that can only ever see regret or apologies as something "fake" or "sanctimonious"?

[Bocc Kob]

There is something very wrong with you.

[Twilight Jack]

There is something very wrong with you.

Wrong indeed. The capacity for finely nuanced rational thought is inadvisable, Aris. It is an anomaly and will bring you naught but trouble. Best to hide it away, lest you frighten and disgust the mass of humanity.

The point you make clarifies to the most casual of observers your ability to distinguish amongst shades of meaning and to dismiss fallacious arguments with an elegance bordering on instinct.

Unless you desire to be feared and hated throughout your life, it would be best for you to suppress this ability. Since it is so incomprehensible to the majority, it jars them and communicates only a sense of "wrongness." Of course, they do not recognize except on the most internal level that it is their own "wrongness" which they sense. Instead, they subconsciously project their cognitive dissonance onto you. In this way, you create a portrait of yourself as "the Other" in their minds. "The Other" is then perceived as a threat, not only to their persons, but to their very conception of reality. It must then be silenced, suppressed, or eradicated in order to rid the community of that dissonance.

It's a good way to get yourself run out of town or lynched, Aris.

[Bocc Kob]

Heh, irony. :smallbiggrin:

[mockingbyrd7]

Wrong indeed. The capacity for finely nuanced rational thought is inadvisable, Aris. It is an anomaly and will bring you naught but trouble. Best to hide it away, lest you frighten and disgust the mass of humanity.

The point you make clarifies to the most casual of observers your ability to distinguish amongst shades of meaning and to dismiss fallacious arguments with an elegance bordering on instinct.

Unless you desire to be feared and hated throughout your life, it would be best for you to suppress this ability. Since it is so incomprehensible to the majority, it jars them and communicates only a sense of "wrongness." Of course, they do not recognize except on the most internal level that it is their own "wrongness" which they sense. Instead, they subconsciously project their cognitive dissonance onto you. In this way, you create a portrait of yourself as "the Other" in their minds. "The Other" is then perceived as a threat, not only to their persons, but to their very conception of reality. It must then be silenced, suppressed, or eradicated in order to rid the community of that dissonance.

It's a good way to get yourself run out of town or lynched, Aris.

You win an internet.

[Twilight Jack]

You win an internet.

Can I just get the cash?

[Arnen]

Wrong indeed. The capacity for finely nuanced rational thought is inadvisable, Aris. It is an anomaly and will bring you naught but trouble. Best to hide it away, lest you frighten and disgust the mass of humanity.

*snip*

It's a good way to get yourself run out of town or lynched, Aris.

Well, don't I know the feeling.

The fact that it took me so long to read that post is testament to what prolonged, forced contact with blithering idiots for hours at a time for months on end can do to one's ability to function mentally. I blame high school.


And, on topic, I agree that it's not so much what they do, but how they do it that's important. Belkar has proven (once again) to be a jerk, whereas the rest of the Order have at least acted... not so jerkishly in the same situations.

[Deme]

Vaarsuvius: (abandoning the soldiers at the breach) *poof* "I am sorry."

I think that V's is the hardest for me to interpret, partially because I find the specific words "I'm sorry" (or I am sorry) very cheap words. I can't wholly explain why, but they always strike me as cheap; not insincere, but certainly less sincere than cursing in raw frustration or making a final plea. On the other hand, looking at it from V's angle, they might have been the easiest words to find to express how he felt about the matter, charisma not being his strong suit, and all. Without a facial expression, it's pretty hard to tell. I'm trying to imagine how a sort of generally-stoic-with-regret might look on a stick figure. It's pretty hard, but it's kinda what I imagine.

[evileeyore]

I think that V's is the hardest for me to interpret, partially because I find the specific words "I'm sorry" (or I am sorry) very cheap words.I felt more moved by Vaarsuvius' three words than any of the others cursing or heartbreak.

Why? V never just says anything simply. To be so disappointed in onesef as to be rendered almost speachless (and certianly pendatless) was to me very powerful.

Haley curse in frustration.
Belkar almost gloats.
Elan frets and worries and gets all worked up (moving but expected).
Hinjo stoic and leaderly.

Vaarsuvius for once is rendered useless and unable to contribute in any fashion. Leaving self-serving cowardice as the only retreat. I can see V having a long moment of introspection before V shows back up.

[Evil DM Mark3]

V is clearly upset by his choice. Have you never been in a situation where you had the choice of a long, involved and detailed explation that would vidicate you but help no one, or just saying sorry? Sorry means that V (Who in my opinion made the correct choice, no doubt.) is willing to admit that his choice is neither noble nor heroic. It is in fact cowardly. It is also logical. It is depressing how often cowardly=sensable and brave=down right stupid. But V had done all he could, in very interesting and creative ways, he had helped hold the breach for a lot of the battle but now it is too late, game over man.