Adventurer's League making special rules

[Dalebert]

AL already makes some rules specific to AL but usually it makes sense and something that's needed for organized play to prevent abuse like not allowing you to give thousands of gold to another PC and limiting how magic items are traded. I also understand why they restrict source materials, e.g. the PHB+1 rule for character creation.

However, I've just heard word that they've made a ruling that will soon be official that just changes the rules for attunement. There was a thread recently about putting magic items on your improved familiar. The rules are very clear that every creature has it's own three attunement slots. They're apparently about to rule that putting an attuned item on your familiar uses one of your own attunement slots.

How do people feel about this? It seems a very new direction. They've normally abstained from rulings on the standard rules. The common phrase you'll hear on Facebook groups regarding such rulings is "Expect table variation."

[rooneg]

AL already makes some rules specific to AL but usually it makes sense and something that's needed for organized play to prevent abuse like not allowing you to give thousands of gold to another PC and limiting how magic items are traded. I also understand why they restrict source materials, e.g. the PHB+1 rule for character creation.

However, I've just heard word that they've made a ruling that will soon be official that just changes the rules for attunement. There was a thread recently about putting magic items on your improved familiar. The rules are very clear that every creature has it's own three attunement slots. They're apparently about to rule that putting an attuned item on your familiar uses one of your own attunement slots.

How do people feel about this? It seems a very new direction. They've normally abstained from rulings on the standard rules. The common phrase you'll hear on Facebook groups regarding such rulings is "Expect table variation."

I don't care even a little bit. "I'll stick the item on my familiar" seems like such an edge case (and one that's open to abuse) that I have a lot of trouble getting excited about it.

Note that they already sort of do this with the ruling on the various Tomes. There's nothing in the rules that says I can't benefit from more than one Tome of Clear Thought, but to avoid the Dedicated DM award being used to spam them they're limited to one per character. This is also something I have trouble getting worked up about.

[mgshamster]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Seems like an edge-case rule meant to prevent jerks from abusing a rule just to get more magic items.

And ten-to-one, this is a reactionary rule; they probably already have issues with people trying to rules-lawyer themselves more magic items. "But it's for my PC's familiar, not my character!"

[Dalebert]

The tome one I understand probably specifically due to DM Rewards and the ability to trade. That's something where the nature of AL makes that item need to be treated differently. I'm not seeing the relevance of AL on this rule.


Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Seems like an edge-case rule meant to prevent jerks from abusing a rule just to get more magic items.

This isn't about magic item count. I verified that. I would understand if anyone was trying to claim items with their familiar as if it was its own character with it's own item count. Of course any items you give it to use are still part of your item count for purposes of new magic item distribution.

This is specifically about attunement slots, i.e. limit of three per creature. It's very strange to have a separate creature be treated as you for purposes of attunement slots.

[coredump]

I have attuned three items
My familiar has attuned 3 items
My awakened steed has attuned 3 items
My simulacrum has attuned 3 items

And away we go.....

And there is no rule in the rules that says a familar has *any* attunement slots....

[Millstone85]

The rules are very clear that every creature has it's own three attunement slots.
And there is no rule in the rules that says a familar has *any* attunement slots....I agree with Dalebert. A familiar is a creature, hence it can attune with three magic items as per the rules.

[Dalebert]

I have attuned three items
My familiar has attuned 3 items
My awakened steed has attuned 3 items
My simulacrum has attuned 3 items


I'm not seeing it.

Firstly, you're going to be limited in the items you can find and actually gain due to your magic item count. The more you have (and the ones on your minions are part of that count) the harder it is to get more.

Secondly, attunement restrictions are going to severely limit what your minions can attune to. Anything that requires any sort of class is probably right out with maybe a very few exceptions based on the attunement rules for creatures in the DMG.

This is a solution looking for a problem and making extra pointless AL documentation over it is quite silly.

[Wymmerdann]

Familiars do not operate as purely independant creatures, instead using the player's attack modifiers when delivering a touch spell cast by the player.

Moreover, they are not physical beings per se, but spirits that take on the form of a celestial animal.

The shared perception, abilities, and attacks of the familiar and their master make it clear that the relationship between the two is essentially unique, and does not lend itself to analogies with other examples [such as henchmen].

I acknowledge that none of this explicitly sets the familiar outside the low bar for attuning [being a creature and meeting item-specific requirements], but I think there's substantial justification for placing limitations on it.

Personally, I think the developers could have put a thought into how they could use the attunement rules to fine-balance summoned minions and action economy, but alas, it was not to be.

[Dalebert]

Familiars do not operate as purely independant creatures, instead using the player's attack modifiers when delivering a touch spell cast by the player.

The RAW disagrees. The familiar per RAW can attune to three items. This is a change to the rules specifically for AL.

Anyway, this isn't a rule just for familiars. They're applying it to any minions no matter how you got them--undead, beast companions, henchmen. That's right. if you hire a henchman and loan him a ring, he's somehow using one of your attunement slots.

[NecroDancer]

Is there a list of the rules on WotC's website? I'm thinking of joining the AD but I have no idea what I need to know.

[Wymmerdann]

What in my previous post does the RAW disagree with, specifically? I see now that I referred to celestial, rather than celestial, fiendish etc. forms, but that doesn't seem relevant. The rules that I referred to were intended to outline how a DM might justify their decision that a familiar does not constitute a "creature" as referred to in the attunement rules [which admittedly applies a narrower definition of that term than is commonly used], and thereby does not benefit from independent attunement slots. Realistically speaking, the line between creative interpretations of rules and the invention of new rules is paper thin, as any legal professional operating in a common law jurisdiction can tell you.

Nevertheless, your point about this applying to henchmen etc makes it clear that this rule is being implemented on the basis of balance, which seems fair enough. Are there any builds that rely on the use of attuned items in the hands of familiar, steeds or henchmen? You mention the Tomelock, and I imagine that's the kind of subclass where this kind of ruling might seem punitive. Frankly, the attunement rules are clearly designed to limit the options of players as much as of characters, and adjusting the rules to fit makes a good deal of sense, regardless of how one feels about the "right" of AL to do this [I don't bother with AL, personally].

Cheers.

EDIT: One might note that the rules for short rests refer to characters rather than creatures, and that attuning to an item requires specific activity to be undertaken during a Short Rest. If a DM were to rule that familiars were not "Characters" as referred to in the rules for short rests, a familiar might have slots but be unable to attune to items [and thereby effectively have 0 slots].

[Naanomi]

I understand the AL stance on this... jockeying around magic items is a much bigger part of the AL 'metagame' than it would be in a standard campaigns (in a normal campaign I can't say 'hey lets kill the Dragon Queen because there is a cool mask one of her minions has!). Probably bothers beastmasters more than anyone with a familiar though

[rooneg]

Is there a list of the rules on WotC's website? I'm thinking of joining the AD but I have no idea what I need to know.

You can download the current season's player's guide here: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/events/adventurers-league-resources

[Deleted]

I agree with Dalebert. A familiar is a creature, hence it can attune with three magic items as per the rules.

Familiars are spirits of creatures and they are considered a celestial, fey, or fiend but not beasts.

While they have stat blocks of a creature, they are not that specific creature (as they are not a beast).

So, do spirits get to attune to magic items? If they say no, that makes sense.

I mean, this spirit already can't attack, so what else can't this spirit do?

[mgshamster]

Where can I find this discussion?

I don't see it on Twitter or Google+. Just signed up for their Facebook group to see if it's there. And it's not on their blog.

Does anyone have a link?

[Millstone85]

Familiars are spirits of creatures and they are considered a celestial, fey, or fiend but not beasts.

While they have stat blocks of a creature, they are not that specific creature (as they are not a beast).A familiar is not the specific creature it has taken the form of, but it is still a creature.

Or are you saying familiars can't provoke opportunity attacks or be targeted by spells like magic missile?


So, do spirits get to attune to magic items? If they say no, that makes sense.

I mean, this spirit already can't attack, so what else can't this spirit do?The familiar can't do what find familiar says it can't do.

I mean, what's next? Familiars can't be healed? Familiars can't use the Dash action?

[Deleted]

A familiar is not the specific creature it has taken the form of, but it is still a creature.

Or are you saying familiars can't provoke opportunity attacks or be targeted by spells like magic missile?

The familiar can't do what find familiar says it can't do.

Find Familiars actually says that your familiar is a spirit that transforms into a creature's form. It doesn't become the crearure, just takes its form.

The spirit may be a creature but its a special creature type (specific to the spell, but maybe beyond it at some point) that isn't fully explained.

Can you OA it? Aparently

Can spirits attuned to magic items? Aparently not.

Can spirits attack? No.

Now why wouldn't the magic items be in the spell description? Because magic items aren't a player option. Haveing a player option give the player rules on non-player options, especially low level options, is a bit silly.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Aren't there plenty of beings in the MM that are clearly creatures while not being regular corporeal entities? I think it's a case of slots more than creatureness.

"I let my owl attune to the Helm of Smashing."

"No."

"Then I turn it into a rat and attune it to the Necklace of Worms."

"No."

"Then I turn it into a dog and attune it to the Red Cape of Krypto."

"No... wait, where did you get that? You explode!"

(I like saying no to things)

[Millstone85]

Find Familiars actually says that your familiar is a spirit that transforms into a creature's form. It doesn't become the crearure, just takes its form.I never said otherwise. The rules on magic item attunement don't refer to a specific creature type, just a creature.

If anything, that spirit business should make it easier to justify the attunement.
- You want an owl to attune to a magic ring? I don't think a beast would be able to do that.
- Ah but it only looks like a beast! A fey spirit should be able to bond with magic gear.


Can spirits attuned to magic items? Aparently not.Except that, as noted above, the AL ruling isn't about spirits. It is about all minions, including hirelings.


Now why wouldn't the magic items be in the spell description? Because magic items aren't a player option. Haveing a player option give the player rules on non-player options, especially low level options, is a bit silly.And yet, there are class features that refer to magic items. There is even at least one spell that does it. You can't activate a magic item with mage hand.

[Naanomi]

No one is saying they can't attune stuff, just that for purely logistic reasons associated with group play that it counts against your total. No one is trying to justify it fluff, just like they Lore is no fluff justification in why there cannot be a triton storm-Sorcerer

[Dalebert]

I mean, this spirit already can't attack, so what else can't this spirit do?

Chain warlock familiars can attack in place of one of their master's attacks.


Where can I find this discussion?

It was an active conversation on Facebook just last night but I'm having trouble finding it right now. Conversations get pushed way down pretty fast on FB. It was in D&D Adventurer's League or D&D Dungeon Master's League.

FWIW, the admin said they had made a ruling like this and that it would get added to documentation. Until then, it's not really official.

EDIT: Found it.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DMsLeague/permalink/1387384668001114/


Find Familiars actually says that your familiar is a spirit that transforms into a creature's form. It doesn't become the crearure, just takes its form.

None of this matters. Why are people obsessing about exactly what type of creature it is? A spirit is a creature. A beast is a creature. A celestial, fey, or fiend is a creature. Creatures can attune to magic items. The rules are very clear on this. It's only a rule for AL and even that is not official yet. I only have a heads-up from an admin that it's coming down the pipeline.


Can spirits attuned to magic items? Aparently not.

*facepalm* Citation needed to show a spirit is not a creature.


Can spirits attack? No.

I'll be sure to show this to my DM next time he has a spectre or ghost attack the party. Any more new rules you're planning to make up while we're at it?

[Wymmerdann]

Source for a Familiar being a "Character" as per the short rest rules?

[DracoKnight]

And yet, there are class features that refer to magic items. There is even at least one spell that does it. You can't activate a magic item with mage hand.

Also, the identify spell is for magic items. :smalltongue: