Healer options - Alchemist, Wizard, Cleric, Oracle - which one?

[Sparx MacGyver]

So my GM has asked me to take a level or two and be the parties healer. She is actually kinda liberal with healing items, but would still like a backup. She gave em the choice between Alchemist, Wizard, Cleric, and Oracle. I don't play spell casters. Ever. I know right now I am a gunslinger/rogue human combo, and I am more of a tank than the other players (Necromancer/Illusionist human, Druid Halfling, Rogue Halfling).

So Playgrounders, what do you recommend? I'm not meant to be dedicated healer, but more as a bonus/part time healer.

Dex and Int are my priorites, while Str is my meh stat, the rest are all decently OK.

[Tuvarkz]

Healing is not a character's primary job, ever. ((Unless you're a Vitalist, but a competent Vitalist does all kinds of of things on top of healing)) No spell with "Cure Wounds" on its name is ever worth spending a spell slot for.
Just pick any class that can cast Cure Light Wounds (Or better, Infernal Healing) and Lesser Restoration. Pack one wand of each (And if possible, convince the rest of the team to chip in), plus have Dispel Magic, Remove Curse and Break Enchantment or equivalents at hand as prepared spells or as scrolls, since those three can double as having other uses.
Otherwise, just focus on buffing your team/debuffing enemies, as a proper caster ought do. (Or if a Cleric or Oracle, self-buff and just get into the melee and smash with your deity's favored weapon. Alchemist can do this too with quite the efficiency.)

[ellindsey]

Rogue, invest in UMD, carry a few wands with healing spells.

[Geddy2112]

I find it hard to believe that a druid is not capable of being the party healer. As said above, cure wounds and lesser restoration are your bread and butter. Druids can also cure disease/poison, regenerate, break polymorph effects and cast dispel magic. Plus, wis based and heal as a class skill. Buy the druid a couple wands of CLW, 2-3 scrolls of lesser restoration and call it a day. Also if you have decent UMD just do it yourself. With a party druid and healing potions dropping frequently, I find it bizarre you need another healer, and stranger still the DM is insiting you multiclass into one.

I assume you are using INT instead of WIS for your grit stat? Wizard is an okay choice, but they don't have the healing juice of the other classes. Cleric and oracle both require stats you are not that great at, although the cleric's channeling and CLW will be more than the oracle can do, and more spell utility. You can also just go the mundane route- with only a few ranks, you will easily be capable of treating deadly wounds outside of combat. You need a 7 modifier, healers kit and surgeons tools. Take a 10, and then you hit the DC 20 to treat deadly wounds. Considering gunslinger has heal as a class skill, you get a +4 for having one rank, so you need 4 ranks and you have the +7, or less depending on your wis mod. Unless your wis mod is incredible, you don't need to shoot for the DC 25 to add your wis to the healing you do. Hell, you can even stop bleeding with your grit if need be.

If you insist on grabbing a healing class or having it forced on you, I would suggest alchemist because you can also whip up cure light wound potions en masse. The vivisectionist gives you more sneak attack dice, and you can use knowledge:nature instead of heal for heal checks at level 3 making it easier to treat deadly wounds. You will need infusion to give your cureXwound infusions to your friends, but it is a good discovery to hand out other buffs even with just 1-2 levels of alchemist.

[Pugwampy]

Why not ask your GM for priest class instead ? If Gm complains tell him he asked you to be a healer . 1D8 channel and more spell slots .

Personally i dont think its fair to ask a player to take a healer level or two especially if Gm is generous with potions .

[Sparx MacGyver]

Why not ask your GM for priest class instead ? If Gm complains tell him he asked you to be a healer . 1D8 channel and more spell slots .

Personally i dont think its fair to ask a player to take a healer level or two especially if Gm is generous with potions .
I'm gonna talk to her. She's a decent GM, but these other players are all new, and so aren't taking the healer role in any capacity. And we are going through potions like no tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion.


I find it hard to believe that a druid is not capable of being the party healer. As said above, cure wounds and lesser restoration are your bread and butter. Druids can also cure disease/poison, regenerate, break polymorph effects and cast dispel magic. Plus, wis based and heal as a class skill. Buy the druid a couple wands of CLW, 2-3 scrolls of lesser restoration and call it a day. Also if you have decent UMD just do it yourself. With a party druid and healing potions dropping frequently, I find it bizarre you need another healer, and stranger still the DM is insiting you multiclass into one.

I assume you are using INT instead of WIS for your grit stat? Wizard is an okay choice, but they don't have the healing juice of the other classes. Cleric and oracle both require stats you are not that great at, although the cleric's channeling and CLW will be more than the oracle can do, and more spell utility. You can also just go the mundane route- with only a few ranks, you will easily be capable of treating deadly wounds outside of combat. You need a 7 modifier, healers kit and surgeons tools. Take a 10, and then you hit the DC 20 to treat deadly wounds. Considering gunslinger has heal as a class skill, you get a +4 for having one rank, so you need 4 ranks and you have the +7, or less depending on your wis mod. Unless your wis mod is incredible, you don't need to shoot for the DC 25 to add your wis to the healing you do. Hell, you can even stop bleeding with your grit if need be.

If you insist on grabbing a healing class or having it forced on you, I would suggest alchemist because you can also whip up cure light wound potions en masse. The vivisectionist gives you more sneak attack dice, and you can use knowledge:nature instead of heal for heal checks at level 3 making it easier to treat deadly wounds. You will need infusion to give your cureXwound infusions to your friends, but it is a good discovery to hand out other buffs even with just 1-2 levels of alchemist.
In the case of the druid, she is a new player and is not particularly well versed in her characters abilities, even with regular coaching from myself and the GM to help her (and the others) learn the system as we go along. Alchemist might work, as it has that bomb feature, and my guy does tend to play with home made explosives. Crafting wands shouldn't be too difficult, right? I think it's a feat to pick it up.


Rogue, invest in UMD, carry a few wands with healing spells.
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.


Healing is not a character's primary job, ever. ((Unless you're a Vitalist, but a competent Vitalist does all kinds of of things on top of healing)) No spell with "Cure Wounds" on its name is ever worth spending a spell slot for.
Just pick any class that can cast Cure Light Wounds (Or better, Infernal Healing) and Lesser Restoration. Pack one wand of each (And if possible, convince the rest of the team to chip in), plus have Dispel Magic, Remove Curse and Break Enchantment or equivalents at hand as prepared spells or as scrolls, since those three can double as having other uses.
Otherwise, just focus on buffing your team/debuffing enemies, as a proper caster ought do. (Or if a Cleric or Oracle, self-buff and just get into the melee and smash with your deity's favored weapon. Alchemist can do this too with quite the efficiency.)
Nice, thanks for the heads up. Yeah, I'm definitely leaning more towards Alchemist. I think that would compliment my character more than others.

[Barstro]

If INT is one of your main scores, the Witch is not a bad option. Well, not worse than the others, I guess. They have Cure spells on their list, use INT for casting, use of a hex or two.

[Geddy2112]

In the case of the druid, she is a new player and is not particularly well versed in her characters abilities, even with regular coaching from myself and the GM to help her (and the others) learn the system as we go along. Alchemist might work, as it has that bomb feature, and my guy does tend to play with home made explosives. Crafting wands shouldn't be too difficult, right? I think it's a feat to pick it up.


Even if the druid does not understand all that well, you can always grab scrolls and wands and take matters in your own hands. The problem with bombs is that with a 1-2 level dip, they won't be worth your time(but making alchemical stuff is) and you need 4 levels to infuse them into your gun to shoot. You also can't make wands as an alchemist as you technically don't have a caster level, even with the feat. Brewing potions is free though.


If INT is one of your main scores, the Witch is not a bad option. Well, not worse than the others, I guess. They have Cure spells on their list, use INT for casting, use of a hex or two.
I agree witch is not terrible. You can get CLW as as a spell, and take the healing hex to provide some extra first aid. You can also take the cauldron hex, which is brew potion and a +4 to craft:alchemy which is a better potion brewer and alchemical stuff maker than a first or even second level alchemist. Whip up a ton of potions. The problem with witch is that your familiar is going to be weak and an easy target unless you just hide it on you all the time. You can take boon companion to get it to level 5, but that is still not all that great. Familiars are really good, but a single level dip does not get much mileage and depending on your DM your familiar might get attacked. Get a greensting scorpion for +4 initiative and the alertness feat, then just keep in in a box or something hidden on you.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One problem is that healing is kind of an all-or-nothing thing. You can get by pretty well with just wands and the occasional scroll of a higher-order restoration spell, but if you want to make casting healing spells profitable you're going to have trouble without devoting a lot of build effort. A Life Oracle/Paladin multiclass is the Pathfinder standard, I think; you use the Life Link revelation to draw damage to yourself, and swift action Lay on Hands it away.

If you want fantastic out-of-combat healing, though? One level of Oracle for Life Link, then put on a pair of Boots of the Earth. Drain all your allies damage onto yourself, while you heal via the boots. Slow, but infinite, and the boots only cost 5000 gold.

Alchemist wouldn't be bad, but that's more because Alchemist is absolutely fantastic than for the healing. I mean, you could drop a bit of healing, but you could also use the Vivisectionist to keep progressing Sneak Attack while augmenting it with all sorts of awesome Extracts.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Hmm. Some ideas to mull over. I know I'm trying to be the crafty guy. I've even been building up and working on creating a crafting empire, a whole slew of shops to help fund the party.

[The Random NPC]

I wanted to point out Celestial Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/celestial-healing/), it's strictly inferior to Infernal Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing/), but it's status as a [Good] spell may be useful depending on your GM and Alignment rules.

[Xar Zarath]

Well you could use Wizard and just arcane versions healing spells. Not all, talk to GM and see if you can talk with him and decide on what spells you want to put into healing. Healing can be put into necromancy school because the fluff fits.

[animewatcha]

Instead of a level or two. Why not a healer cohort with Leadership or something?

[Melcar]

Healing is not a character's primary job, ever. ((Unless you're a Vitalist, but a competent Vitalist does all kinds of of things on top of healing)) No spell with "Cure Wounds" on its name is ever worth spending a spell slot for.
Just pick any class that can cast Cure Light Wounds (Or better, Infernal Healing) and Lesser Restoration. Pack one wand of each (And if possible, convince the rest of the team to chip in), plus have Dispel Magic, Remove Curse and Break Enchantment or equivalents at hand as prepared spells or as scrolls, since those three can double as having other uses.
Otherwise, just focus on buffing your team/debuffing enemies, as a proper caster ought do. (Or if a Cleric or Oracle, self-buff and just get into the melee and smash with your deity's favored weapon. Alchemist can do this too with quite the efficiency.)

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Considering all the possibilities of adding to the base healing, it is a phenomenal help. Consider halfway through your fight with the dragon, the dragon is at 50% party 100. Now I will say that it depends of optimization levels, but if your far away from tippy level optimizations healing is indeed a valid thing. At level 7 I can heal my whole party 14 every round, with hots or 17 rounds. Not many wizards can mass damage 14 flat for 17 rounds in a row. Just saying. And I consider this low-practical optimization. Pushing it would be allowing custom spells that would increase it a lot.

[Arkhios]

I'd say alchemist, due to dex and int priority. Plus, depending on what kind of firearm you use (preferably one-handed) at 4th level you could take the Discovery: Explosive Missile. It lets you shoot a bomb with a ranged weapon (if firearm, had to be one-handed, iirc). Applying the effects of both (the gun's damage and the bomb's damage and other effects if applicable). Although it takes a standard action so it might not be an every-round-option. But it's a cool and strong option nevertheless, in my opinion.

[Calthropstu]

Life oracle is the best healing class around.

[Pugwampy]

Life oracle is the best healing class around.

I crunched the numbers . Oracle is better than a cleric but priest class is the best of the bunch .

[Calthropstu]

I crunched the numbers . Oracle is better than a cleric but priest class is the best of the bunch .

Life oracle + fast healing = infinite free healing.

NOTHING can top that, except a full successful long term planar binding spell of a ghaele azata or an akhana aeon which can do the infinite healing faster.

[Tuvarkz]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Considering all the possibilities of adding to the base healing, it is a phenomenal help. Consider halfway through your fight with the dragon, the dragon is at 50% party 100. Now I will say that it depends of optimization levels, but if your far away from tippy level optimizations healing is indeed a valid thing. At level 7 I can heal my whole party 14 every round, with hots or 17 rounds. Not many wizards can mass damage 14 flat for 17 rounds in a row. Just saying. And I consider this low-practical optimization. Pushing it would be allowing custom spells that would increase it a lot.

Except that every action you spend healing is one action where you are either a)not damaging/debuffing the dragon, or b) not buffing allies. Which means that the enemy gets more actions, which means they damage your allies more.
If you are fighting a dragon intelligently, at most the melee characters will be taking some damage, and they should be running 14-16 CON with those d10 hit dies so they don't get instagibbed. And you can always bump their ACs, weaken the dragon's attack roll, haste them up, etc etc. ((Or outright aiming to deal DEX damage to the dragon so he goes down))
And you don't need that much healing unless the party is intently taking damage they shouldn't be-Out of combat healing with wands should be how you handle it.

And healing done is different than damage received. On the same APL vs CR, enemies and players have different amounts of HP and damage, plus the fact that for a fullcaster, dealing direct damage should only be a) AoE when there's no other spell that will do the trick or it's a swarm/bunch of minions that the fireball will oneshot, or b) last resort when the enemy is immune to all the other offensive spells you have and have no buffs left.
((And again, this is two levels higher, but by then Wizard gets Cloudkill, which can effectively deal a crapton of damage and lasts one minute per level))

EDIT: And then, you're being hyperbolical. Healing as a main role becomes useless by mid-Op because by this level your casters know their spells decently enough (Without abusing Illusions/Conjurations/Divinations/you name it) and the melees will deal enough damage to any CR-appropriate encounter so that any enemy won't get more than 2 rounds worth of actions.

[warmachine]

It seems the OP is primarily a roleplayer and not a spell-based tactician and his GM is trying to get the OP to be insurance against the new player's mistakes and inexperience. If the OP is a primary spell caster tactician, this would be fine but, instead, he would weaken the character concept he wants to play and have too few healer levels to effectively be the insurance the GM wants.

Instead, I vote for animewatcha's suggestion of Leadership cohort, probably a Cleric. The cohort mostly goes unnoticed, is assumed to be following, and doesn't do anything except when healing is needed. Don't bother tracking the cohort's resources, even the HP loss whenever the entire party gets hit by a fireball, except the slots for a small set of spells the GM expects for backup healer. This should impose little brain power tax on the OP.

Also, as cohorts are NPCs, the GM can have him speak if players are making a mistake. Better, Leadership has followers, which is an excuse for the OP to have a crafting empire.

[Tuvarkz]

It seems the OP is primarily a roleplayer and not a spell-based tactician and his GM is trying to get the OP to be insurance against the new player's mistakes and inexperience. If the OP is a primary spell caster tactician, this would be fine but, instead, he would weaken the character concept he wants to play and have too few healer levels to effectively be the insurance the GM wants.

Stormwind fallacy-A roleplayer can very well play a spell-based tactician and do both quite well. He mentioned wanting to be a part-time/bonus healer; not a dedicated one. Which means that suggestions of being a class that has the healing spells on list for wand use or enough UMD to use those wands are perfectly valid.

[warmachine]

Stormwind fallacy-A roleplayer can very well play a spell-based tactician and do both quite well. He mentioned wanting to be a part-time/bonus healer; not a dedicated one. Which means that suggestions of being a class that has the healing spells on list for wand use or enough UMD to use those wands are perfectly valid.
I am aware of this but to quote the OP.
I don't play spell casters. Ever. This strongly suggests the OP lacks the ability and/or inclination to be the tactical and contingency planner against new player mistakes. None of his subsequent posts suggests a tactical mind.

This doesn't mean backup wands are a bad idea but that's because it's burning resources given by the GM, rather than the player anticipating and choosing spells. I still vote for Leadership as it better suits his crafting empire idea.

[Swaoeaeieu]

maybe if DSP products are allowed a few levels in the medic class, or get some maneuvers from Silver Crane for some combat heals?

[Calthropstu]

Stormwind fallacy-A roleplayer can very well play a spell-based tactician and do both quite well. He mentioned wanting to be a part-time/bonus healer; not a dedicated one. Which means that suggestions of being a class that has the healing spells on list for wand use or enough UMD to use those wands are perfectly valid.

My suggestion is best: Life oracle, Lifelink revelation + boots of the earth = near full heal after each battle for zero additional cost. Only takes a one point level dip (assuming he can find some natural earth.)

[Melcar]

Except that every action you spend healing is one action where you are either a)not damaging/debuffing the dragon, or b) not buffing allies. Which means that the enemy gets more actions, which means they damage your allies more.
If you are fighting a dragon intelligently, at most the melee characters will be taking some damage, and they should be running 14-16 CON with those d10 hit dies so they don't get instagibbed. And you can always bump their ACs, weaken the dragon's attack roll, haste them up, etc etc. ((Or outright aiming to deal DEX damage to the dragon so he goes down))
And you don't need that much healing unless the party is intently taking damage they shouldn't be-Out of combat healing with wands should be how you handle it.

Why do you assume the DM is not fighting us intelligently thus leveling the palyingfield? A dragon is very capable of damaging more than just the melee characters you so blatantly state should be the unly one who takes damage. Well that's not always up the PCs. I dont know what DM you are used to, but mine is not just pummelig at the melee like a fool. Our dragons can fly, thus completly eliminating melee... unless they have the ability to fly.

Its true we can bump AC, like the Dragon can bump attack, who also hastes and outright aims to deal dex damage to us. So when all that is added, we do take masses of damage. Because we have a healer we can refrain from playing character which "[...] should be running 14-16 CON". That's not to say we do, but it opens up otherwise impractical builds.

Also, whose to say I don't buff and then heal? Which I do by divine metamagic AOE spells and stuff like interfaith blessing, Healthful Rest, etc. How short are your fights normally? I hope you read that my 14hp/round in 17 rounds (EDIT: 19 rounds), were by a healing over time, which then leaves me to buff, and debuff.



And healing done is different than damage received. On the same APL vs CR, enemies and players have different amounts of HP and damage, plus the fact that for a fullcaster, dealing direct damage should only be a) AoE when there's no other spell that will do the trick or it's a swarm/bunch of minions that the fireball will oneshot, or b) last resort when the enemy is immune to all the other offensive spells you have and have no buffs left.
((And again, this is two levels higher, but by then Wizard gets Cloudkill, which can effectively deal a crapton of damage and lasts one minute per level))

EDIT: And then, you're being hyperbolical. Healing as a main role becomes useless by mid-Op because by this level your casters know their spells decently enough (Without abusing Illusions/Conjurations/Divinations/you name it) and the melees will deal enough damage to any CR-appropriate encounter so that any enemy won't get more than 2 rounds worth of actions.

Why do you assume we play CR appropriate encounter when you yourself say that a fight is over in about 2 rounds? We don't think its fun to have a fight last 2 rounds. We want our fights to last longer. Both in the games where we play Tippy level optimization and in lover. No fun for the DM spending hours on his NPC for them to die in the 2nd round. We usually play encounters that are 3-4 ECL higher, that seems to work for us. Especially because of my healbot character.

I would also like to know what kind of damage your melee does since its well enough to take any CR-appropriate enemy down in 2 rounds.

Finally so at level 18 giving the whole party 42hp/round as a HoT or mass healing for 216 per spell is not keeping up with damage or other spellcasters? (not considering what an optmized cleric can do on the side) Sure at that level your could shapechage to a Zodar or gate in a massive army of solars... but lets assume breaking the game is not the goal.

On a last note. I had pretty much the same view on healing as you did, until I created a healbot. Its fun to have different priorities than always just who has the highest dps. And I have to say in our game with our particular players and DM it is very valid option which more times than not has saved the party. So I still wholeheartedly disagree to your "the best defence is an offence" line or thought. There are more ways of playing the game!

[Tuvarkz]

Why do you assume the DM is not fighting us intelligently thus leveling the palyingfield? A dragon is very capable of damaging more than just the melee characters you so blatantly state should be the unly one who takes damage. Well that's not always up the PCs. I dont know what DM you are used to, but mine is not just pummelig at the melee like a fool. Our dragons can fly, thus completly eliminating melee... unless they have the ability to fly.

Its true we can bump AC, like the Dragon can bump attack, who also hastes and outright aims to deal dex damage to us. So when all that is added, we do take masses of damage. Because we have a healer we can refrain from playing character which "[...] should be running 14-16 CON". That's not to say we do, but it opens up otherwise impractical builds.


Because fundamentally, the dragon has 1/4 of the Action economy a 4-man party does (This comes in particular when buffing), and about the same difference in wealth, feat allottance, and all such. (particularly for scouting ahead) To boot, dragons have fixed spell lists and such, limiting their range of moves. It's obvious that the spellcasters should be ready to grant the martials a fly spell cast if they don't have their own means of doing so. Also, I specified Dex damage because dragons tend to have at most 8 to 10 DEX, and have no way to easily recover it once they are rendered down to 0. If the dragon debuffs one party member to 0 DEX, then just one of the casters needs to run lesser restoration/restoration and bam, the ally is back and ready to fight once more.


Also, whose to say I don't buff and then heal? Which I do by divine metamagic AOE spells and stuff like interfaith blessing, Healthful Rest, etc. How short are your fights normally? I hope you read that my 14hp/round in 17 rounds (EDIT: 19 rounds), were by a healing over time, which then leaves me to buff, and debuff.

If you are buffing, debuffing and healing, then you aren't a primary healer. You are a primary buffer/debuffer that also provides healing support. Also, Divine Metamagic is 3.5, as a minor nitpick.


Why do you assume we play CR appropriate encounter when you yourself say that a fight is over in about 2 rounds? We don't think its fun to have a fight last 2 rounds. We want our fights to last longer. Both in the games where we play Tippy level optimization and in lover. No fun for the DM spending hours on his NPC for them to die in the 2nd round. We usually play encounters that are 3-4 ECL higher, that seems to work for us. Especially because of my healbot character.

I would also like to know what kind of damage your melee does since its well enough to take any CR-appropriate enemy down in 2 rounds.

I'm not? My groups generally end up going well past the CR-appropriate, particularly because at high levels each of the damage dealers easily smacks 500 damage on a round without burning significant daily resources (Meaning the party onerounds a CR 30 encounter w/no problem); on the WotR game DM's just forgoing CR and balancing around us since I can easily churn out 1500+damage in a round, minor resources burned, and double that in a nova, and that's not counting the fact that the DM has decided that bosses auto-nope any debuffs I can place alongside that damage, even when my character has invested into no-save debuffs and immunity-piercing abilities.


Finally so at level 18 giving the whole party 42hp/round as a HoT or mass healing for 216 per spell is not keeping up with damage or other spellcasters? (not considering what an optmized cleric can do on the side) Sure at that level your could shapechage to a Zodar or gate in a massive army of solars... but lets assume breaking the game is not the goal.

On a last note. I had pretty much the same view on healing as you did, until I created a healbot. Its fun to have different priorities than always just who has the highest dps. And I have to say in our game with our particular players and DM it is very valid option which more times than not has saved the party. So I still wholeheartedly disagree to your "the best defence is an offence" line or thought. There are more ways of playing the game!

Agreed that chain-gating and similar gamebreaking is not the goal. My line of thought is not "The best defense is an offence", I've well learned to keep my AC on line after the DM started to get a lucky string of nat 20s on those attack rolls and the crits were auto-hits (And even so, that character death involved tanking 5 crits before going down). My line of thought is instead: "Make the most efficient use out of limited resources (spells/action economy) that have better value being used otherwise."

[Bucky]

Clerics are nice as healers because their healing is incidental; they prepare spells for other circumstances and use wands for bread-and-butter healing, but also have spontaneous cures in a pinch. Then they get Channel Energy on top of that without spending spells for when the party doesn't have enough time between encounters to break out the wand.

So pick Cleric if you want to convince the GM you're playing a healer while actually building something else.


Later, clerics can pick up Selective Channel and channelling boosters and come out ahead on action economy for in-combat healing by fixing the entire party at once.

[Geddy2112]

Finally so at level 18 giving the whole party 42hp/round as a HoT or mass healing for 216 per spell is not keeping up with damage or other spellcasters? (not considering what an optmized cleric can do on the side)

The thing is, healing is generally a waste of action economy. I don't care if you can heal the entire party to full in one round, it is generally a waste. Waiting around to top off PC's the first time they take damage is pointless. A character at 1HP or full HP is still equally dangerous. They have the same number of actions. Healing them does not increase action economy in the favor of the party, or decrease action economy of the enemy.

Healing in combat has a place, it is when a healing spell or action will throw action economy back in favor of the party. Say your fighter has 150 max hp, and you are a 15th level cleric with heal prepared. You can heal the fighter to full with a single action. The fighter takes 149 damage-should you heal?

-If you know the fighter is going to get hit again with enough damage to be killed outright, then yes healing is good because it protects your action economy. Losing a full BAB martial is going to rob the party of action economy. Note, if the fighter is incapacitated but not killed outright you can heal them THEN and spend your current action on something else.
-If the fighter is under a disabling condition that you can remove, or one that greatly hinders their combat ability. Stagger, stun,unconscious/dying etc anything that causes loss of action should be broken to keep action economy. Also, if they are heavily debuffed with negative modifiers or miss chances so their actions are de facto lost then healing said conditions swings action economy in the party's favor. In these scenarios, you can throw out a mass cure spell, channel, etc: the intent is to restore party action economy, but if you are going to bother then topping off your allies is acceptable in these scenarios as it is icing on the cake.

Otherwise, do not heal.

[Calthropstu]

The thing is, healing is generally a waste of action economy. I don't care if you can heal the entire party to full in one round, it is generally a waste. Waiting around to top off PC's the first time they take damage is pointless. A character at 1HP or full HP is still equally dangerous. They have the same number of actions. Healing them does not increase action economy in the favor of the party, or decrease action economy of the enemy.

Healing in combat has a place, it is when a healing spell or action will throw action economy back in favor of the party. Say your fighter has 150 max hp, and you are a 15th level cleric with heal prepared. You can heal the fighter to full with a single action. The fighter takes 149 damage-should you heal?

-If you know the fighter is going to get hit again with enough damage to be killed outright, then yes healing is good because it protects your action economy. Losing a full BAB martial is going to rob the party of action economy. Note, if the fighter is incapacitated but not killed outright you can heal them THEN and spend your current action on something else.
-If the fighter is under a disabling condition that you can remove, or one that greatly hinders their combat ability. Stagger, stun,unconscious/dying etc anything that causes loss of action should be broken to keep action economy. Also, if they are heavily debuffed with negative modifiers or miss chances so their actions are de facto lost then healing said conditions swings action economy in the party's favor. In these scenarios, you can throw out a mass cure spell, channel, etc: the intent is to restore party action economy, but if you are going to bother then topping off your allies is acceptable in these scenarios as it is icing on the cake.

Otherwise, do not heal.

Bull****.

You're in the middle of a fight and your fighter is down to 1hp from 230... 1 more hit is going to KILL YOU. You go down, the party has no front line defense. Healing is the only viable action in that happenstance. Likewise if party members are down but not dead. Likewise if a downed party member is near death. I can think of tons of scenarios where healing has saved the party from certain doom that I have personally experienced.

If you're never needing a healer, your gm is pretty much lax and isn't challenging you much. I would never go into battle without a healer at my back.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The issue is that for a long time, from maybe ~3rd level until Heal comes online, in-combat healing trails way behind damage. A 6th level Cleric casting Cure Serious Wounds is only going to restore around 20 health, while the Fighter is, oh, getting mauled by a brown bear for 36 damage. Spending one turn to undo one turn's worth of damage is a losing proposition unless you have a major action economy advantage over the enemy. And it only gets worse; healing spells do 1d8/2 spell levels, +1/level, while in the same span characters gain 2dsomething and 2*con, which is almost certainly more than +1. And then of course the progression stalls completely and you switch over to Mass Heals.

[Gnaeus]

Well you could use Wizard and just arcane versions healing spells. Not all, talk to GM and see if you can talk with him and decide on what spells you want to put into healing. Healing can be put into necromancy school because the fluff fits.

For healing wizards take "summon good monster" most angels heal better than an equal level clerics cure wounds slot, they have lots of condition cures, and you can summon them before combat for in combat healing

[noob]

T1 classes(full casters mostly in pathfinder) are good at preventing allies from taking damage and then at healing them if they ever start being seriously wounded and at solving adventures and breaking settings with one or two casts of teleport or of simulacrum.
If you only want to heal and not want to be omnipotent then take any other class and use some items for healing.

[Melcar]

Because fundamentally, the dragon has 1/4 of the Action economy a 4-man party does (This comes in particular when buffing), and about the same difference in wealth, feat allottance, and all such. (particularly for scouting ahead) To boot, dragons have fixed spell lists and such, limiting their range of moves. It's obvious that the spellcasters should be ready to grant the martials a fly spell cast if they don't have their own means of doing so. Also, I specified Dex damage because dragons tend to have at most 8 to 10 DEX, and have no way to easily recover it once they are rendered down to 0. If the dragon debuffs one party member to 0 DEX, then just one of the casters needs to run lesser restoration/restoration and bam, the ally is back and ready to fight once more.



If you are buffing, debuffing and healing, then you aren't a primary healer. You are a primary buffer/debuffer that also provides healing support. Also, Divine Metamagic is 3.5, as a minor nitpick.



I'm not? My groups generally end up going well past the CR-appropriate, particularly because at high levels each of the damage dealers easily smacks 500 damage on a round without burning significant daily resources (Meaning the party onerounds a CR 30 encounter w/no problem); on the WotR game DM's just forgoing CR and balancing around us since I can easily churn out 1500+damage in a round, minor resources burned, and double that in a nova, and that's not counting the fact that the DM has decided that bosses auto-nope any debuffs I can place alongside that damage, even when my character has invested into no-save debuffs and immunity-piercing abilities.



Agreed that chain-gating and similar gamebreaking is not the goal. My line of thought is not "The best defense is an offence", I've well learned to keep my AC on line after the DM started to get a lucky string of nat 20s on those attack rolls and the crits were auto-hits (And even so, that character death involved tanking 5 crits before going down). My line of thought is instead: "Make the most efficient use out of limited resources (spells/action economy) that have better value being used otherwise."

See that is both a character level and optimization level, which is not even on the table, neither for me or the OP, if I read correctly. Not saying my level 31 wizard cant contend with your damage shenanigans, but as I pointed out earlier medium - practical optimization healing works. If each of your PCs are doing 500 damage per round one of three things is going on: 1) You are all playing a high optimizations game (still well below TO), your DM is not very good, (which seems unlikely considering the level you must be playing at to achieve that amount of damage) and your level is well above 30.

I haven't build an epic level healer, but I assume that I would just make an epic spell that fully healed my party members each round, and make it a permanent emanation. Seems healing is pretty good at high level! :smallwink:


The issue is that for a long time, from maybe ~3rd level until Heal comes online, in-combat healing trails way behind damage. A 6th level Cleric casting Cure Serious Wounds is only going to restore around 20 health, while the Fighter is, oh, getting mauled by a brown bear for 36 damage. Spending one turn to undo one turn's worth of damage is a losing proposition unless you have a major action economy advantage over the enemy. And it only gets worse; healing spells do 1d8/2 spell levels, +1/level, while in the same span characters gain 2dsomething and 2*con, which is almost certainly more than +1. And then of course the progression stalls completely and you switch over to Mass Heals.

Hmm... Lets consider Augmented Healing, and the spell Soul of Light

A level 6 cleric would be with and item or two able to be caster level 8 for Conjuration (Healing) spells. With that in mind a level 3 Cure Serious Wounds heal: 3d8 +20 = 33 average damage healed.

EDIT: I checked in the beginning not seeing anything, but now realizing this is a pathfinder thread! Was that added later, I swear I checked? Any who, all my comments have been directed towards 3.5 which still stands. I assume most things cross over to PF, but unsure about it all!

[Tuvarkz]

See that is both a character level and optimization level, which is not even on the table, neither for me or the OP, if I read correctly. Not saying my level 31 wizard cant contend with your damage shenanigans, but as I pointed out earlier medium - practical optimization healing works. If each of your PCs are doing 500 damage per round one of three things is going on: 1) You are all playing a high optimizations game (still well below TO), your DM is not very good, (which seems unlikely considering the level you must be playing at to achieve that amount of damage) and your level is well above 30.

It was two out of four characters in the party doing 500+ damage per round at levels 18-20 (Incidentally, both the damage dealers while the support characters did their thing. One could do damage too, but not upwards of 200-250 per round), and from a check and memory of the stuff that was available back then, we'd made plenty of suboptimal choices (Including me burning feats that I could've made my mount burn instead, as an example, and taking a weak archetype on my class while the other guy went for a suboptimal class for TWF) and were more adapting to what the DM had been throwing at us more than intent on optimizing hard. In hindsight, that game went onto the rocket tag rollercoaster after the near-TPK.

[Coretron03]

My suggestion is best: Life oracle, Lifelink revelation + boots of the earth = near full heal after each battle for zero additional cost. Only takes a one point level dip (assuming he can find some natural earth.)

To be fair though that takes forever as its 1HP a round to one party memeber and you cant move while its in use. If people are at the level where Heal is available a average fighter with 18 con (10+66+52=128) thats lost half his hp is gonna take just over 6 Minutes to heal and needing to be standing still, a bit annoying for most parties even in a scenario where only the fighter took damage. Oh, and I think you could do the same thing by giving someone else the boots. I prefer a Oradin build/wands of infernal healing(Which for the OP i think is best) myself.

Oh, and your next post, If something takes the fighter goes down from 230 to 1 the first response should be to find a way to GTFO as even heal at 150hp isn't gonna let the fighter survive the mext hit. Notice he mentioned healing someone down but not dead is a pretty reasonable idea because it restores action econmy loss.

Oh, and melcar, Pathfinder doesn't have feats like augmented healing, though clerics channel (replaces turn undead) gives 1-10d6 healing 3+cha times per day to everyone aroundwhich is pretty good for single class healing although it takes a feat not to heal your enemies making it better for out of combat.

[Psyren]

Alchemist fits your stat priorities and also allows your allies to heal with their own actions instead of yours (thanks to Infusion) so that would be my recommendation

[Calthropstu]

To be fair though that takes forever as its 1HP a round to one party memeber and you cant move while its in use. If people are at the level where Heal is available a average fighter with 18 con (10+66+52=128) thats lost half his hp is gonna take just over 6 Minutes to heal and needing to be standing still, a bit annoying for most parties even in a scenario where only the fighter took damage. Oh, and I think you could do the same thing by giving someone else the boots. I prefer a Oradin build/wands of infernal healing(Which for the OP i think is best) myself.

Oh, and your next post, If something takes the fighter goes down from 230 to 1 the first response should be to find a way to GTFO as even heal at 150hp isn't gonna let the fighter survive the mext hit. Notice he mentioned healing someone down but not dead is a pretty reasonable idea because it restores action econmy loss.

Oh, and melcar, Pathfinder doesn't have feats like augmented healing, though clerics channel (replaces turn undead) gives 1-10d6 healing 3+cha times per day to everyone aroundwhich is pretty good for single class healing although it takes a feat not to heal your enemies making it better for out of combat.

If you buff the spirit link with feats, you can get 4-5 healing per round instead of one... which basically means you can grant fast healing 5 at no cost. There are also other ways of enhancing it as well and alternate methods of stacking or getting fast healing. (does fast healing and regen stack?)

My point is, a life oracle with the life link revelation can take advantage of it in multiple ways, and fast healing tricks can restore the entire party quickly.

Another trick, once heal becomes available, is to transfer all the damage of the party to the life oracle and cure it all in one fell swoop.

[Coretron03]

If you buff the spirit link with feats, you can get 4-5 healing per round instead of one... which basically means you can grant fast healing 5 at no cost. There are also other ways of enhancing it as well and alternate methods of stacking or getting fast healing. (does fast healing and regen stack?)

My point is, a life oracle with the life link revelation can take advantage of it in multiple ways, and fast healing tricks can restore the entire party quickly.

Another trick, once heal becomes available, is to transfer all the damage of the party to the life oracle and cure it all in one fell swoop.
How must investment though? In a normal build you could but likely not in a one level dip which is the topic of the thread. The easiest way to do it I know is to pick up the feat that increases healing received by 1/2 con mod though that has some steep Preqs of endurance and diehard.

It is a good revelation though purely for the ease of heals but its better when you have swift action heals like lay on hands.

[Calthropstu]

How must investment though? In a normal build you could but likely not in a one level dip which is the topic of the thread. The easiest way to do it I know is to pick up the feat that increases healing received by 1/2 con mod though that has some steep Preqs of endurance and diehard.

It is a good revelation though purely for the ease of heals but its better when you have swift action heals like lay on hands.

Yeah, that was the feat support I was talking about. You can also stack a ring of regen later and the feat will work with both. If you can pump your con to 26 somehow, that's fast healing 10 to 2 different party members, switchable with a single standard each with no resorce cost.

Of course, an evil psion could one level dip oracle and mindswitch +lifelink...

And a wand of infernal healing would also trigger the extra healing feat as well. And I think there's more tricks to heal/round. This fast healer + oracle life link can get quite ridiculous.

Is there some ability that will heal you the first time you take damage each round?
Yeah, even with just the 1 level, the shenanigans can get pretty ridonkulous really quick.

[Sparx MacGyver]

maybe if DSP products are allowed a few levels in the medic class, or get some maneuvers from Silver Crane for some combat heals?

DSP is allowed, although it's just from Psionics unleashed (or the new version).


Wow guys, lots of stuff to read over, thank you all. Will reply as I can.

[EldritchWeaver]

If you buff the spirit link with feats, you can get 4-5 healing per round instead of one...

Can you please expand on that? Which feats do you mean?

[Calthropstu]

Can you please expand on that? Which feats do you mean?

Fast healing combined with a (very)high con. If you manage to get a 26, any fast fast healing will heal 5. And since ring of regeneration is separate, you heal another 5.

Each 5, you can link to another person granting them the fast healing 5. You can link to another as well, taking the damage as normal, and once your targets are full on hp, you will heal up as normal.

[Malroth]

Witch 1 with the healing hex and a wand of hex vunerability, heal everyone a little for free and if it's not enough use a lv 1 wand charge to allow you to repeatedly heal them even when they're otherwise not valid targets. Grab extra Hex for Slumber, Cauldron or Fortune so your witch level continues to benefit you even after you swap out to a different class. Life Oracle is better when you're CHA based or plan on going all into the class but A witch dip has some pretty good utility outside healing.

[EldritchWeaver]

Fast healing combined with a (very)high con. If you manage to get a 26, any fast fast healing will heal 5. And since ring of regeneration is separate, you heal another 5.

I can't find any rule which details any interaction of Fast Healing with Con score. Do you have a link?

[Coretron03]

I can't find any rule which details any interaction of Fast Healing with Con score. Do you have a link?
He is talking about the benefits of the feats fast healer healer here which when combined with fast healing effectively increases it by half your con mod. Steep preqs though, however a dip in unbreakable fighter gives you endurance and diehard in exchange for the feat.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fast-healer/

[Calthropstu]

I can't find any rule which details any interaction of Fast Healing with Con score. Do you have a link?
The feat fast healer as noted by coretron.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Thanks for all the advice. After getting together with the GM, we were able to come to an understanding. Basically, she will toss out a few more healing supplies and take it a bit easier in combats to compensate. I am picking up a cohort in a couple levels (2 to be exact), so that character will become a sub-crafter/healer.

[Morphic tide]

Given your current build, you go either Alchemist or don't heal. That's it. You have no other good options because of the severe MAD that going into a proper healing class would cause you. Wizards don't heal and the other options are adding another stat. Granted, Alchemist offers a lot of non-healing stuff, but it's not great for healing and the stuff you'd get that synergises with the rest of your build is mutually exclusive.

Be mad at the DM for telling you to go into a healing class as a Gunslinger/Rogue, you have a Druid that can do it for you. You already have two stats to focus on, with the standard Con score focus of every good character making it worse on you. Seriously, your build cannot handle the stress of being a primary healer because all the classes that would let you heal either add MAD or offer nothing more to your build.

Edit: If your build were redone from the ground up, you'd be quite well off as a Warpriest/Gunslinger, as you can get ahold of damage dice increases from Warpriest at high enough levels and you get a class feature for somewhat useful healing that is also usable as an emergency damage boost when your party is being screwed over.