Would telling my players the best way to proceed be too rail-roady?

[heavyfuel]

My players are soon to face the BBEG of the campaign. And, honestly, it'll a 100% be a TPK if they're not fully prepared. Fortunately, they have time to do so, I just don't think they have the brains.

So what I had in mind was to have an oracle they befriended give them hints on how to prepare for the BBEG. If you ever played Chrono Trigger, you know how after you use the Chrono Trigger, the Guru of Time shows the party some side-quest hooks that will help you? Exactly like that. Nothing too specific, just some nods

I fear, though, that this might be way WAY too much rail-road.

Opinions? Suggestions? All are welcome!

[Kelb_Panthera]

You're not forcing them to do anything and you're trying to facilitate a good time without bailing them out with a deus ex machina. Doesn't sound like raiilroading to me. As long as they're free to ignore the advice and it's not -too- detailed, you're in the clear from where I sit.

[J-H]

Use leading questions:

Do you want to attack now, gather some allies, try to get some better gear, do some research about your foe, or something else?

You want some better equipment and spells... Okay, do you want to check out the oracle at Delphi, visit the Dwarves, talk to the king, or something else?

Gather Info? Ok... (roll)... you hear a rumor that a flaming rock fell from above a week east of here. The guy with K:Arcana knows that meteors can sometimes yield metal that makes especially potent weapons and armor. Do you want to check it out?

[Lormador]

Have the BBEG brutally kill an NPC they respect and admire, and send some minions to take down their cohorts.

They'll be a lot more cautious once they feel like they're losing.

[heavyfuel]

You're not forcing them to do anything and you're trying to facilitate a good time without bailing them out with a deus ex machina. Doesn't sound like raiilroading to me. As long as they're free to ignore the advice and it's not -too- detailed, you're in the clear from where I sit.

Alright, makes sense. They can go poke the BBEG with a stick +2 adamantine bastard sword any time they want, so they have the option to prepare and the option to leeroy jenkins him too.


Use leading questions:

Do you want to attack now, gather some allies, try to get some better gear, do some research about your foe, or something else?

You want some better equipment and spells... Okay, do you want to check out the oracle at Delphi, visit the Dwarves, talk to the king, or something else?

Gather Info? Ok... (roll)... you hear a rumor that a flaming rock fell from above a week east of here. The guy with K:Arcana knows that meteors can sometimes yield metal that makes especially potent weapons and armor. Do you want to check it out?

Do you mean to have me as the DM do this, or have some NPC ask these leading questions?

And "go ask the oracle" is basically what I had in mind in the first place hahahaha


Have the BBEG brutally kill an NPC they respect and admire, and send some minions to take down their cohorts.

They'll be a lot more cautious once they feel like they're losing.

This has already happened. They are quite hopeless about the whole thing actually

[Bronk]

Maybe throw in the opinions of some additional NPCs. Change things up by having some of them lie, and set their sense motive checks very low.

Toss some gather information checks in there too, give them some specifics.

[Pleh]

If the fight is truly so one sided, consider having the bbeg throw down a power play. Killing someone close to the party is a good idea, unless it provokes them to aggressive response.

If they attack unprepared, instead of a tpk, consider having the villain spare them with the whole "you're not worth the effort to kill you" speech.

[Fizban]

Hmm, I wonder. Could crush them, capture them, and inflict some sort of curse/torture/procedure/whatever that is intended to convert them. It has never failed on previous subjects, because NPCs are vulnerable to skill checks and do whatever the DM says, but PC's can't be Intimidated or coerced. So they come out the other side with their minds intact and are in a prime position to start plotting again since they're powerful "pawns" under "complete" control.

Conflicts with PCs who insist on escaping/refuse to be taken alive, not suitable for players that aren't up for that sort of thing, replaces Deus ex Machina with Deus ex Player Character.

[heavyfuel]

Maybe throw in the opinions of some additional NPCs. Change things up by having some of them lie, and set their sense motive checks very low.

Toss some gather information checks in there too, give them some specifics.

Could work. Maybe even in conjuction with the side-quest hooks, as I intend to make them as vague as possible. Make the players work a little more for those sweet rewards


If the fight is truly so one sided, consider having the bbeg throw down a power play. Killing someone close to the party is a good idea, unless it provokes them to aggressive response.

If they attack unprepared, instead of a tpk, consider having the villain spare them with the whole "you're not worth the effort to kill you" speech.


Hmm, I wonder. Could crush them, capture them, and inflict some sort of curse/torture/procedure/whatever that is intended to convert them. It has never failed on previous subjects, because NPCs are vulnerable to skill checks and do whatever the DM says, but PC's can't be Intimidated or coerced. So they come out the other side with their minds intact and are in a prime position to start plotting again since they're powerful "pawns" under "complete" control.

Conflicts with PCs who insist on escaping/refuse to be taken alive, not suitable for players that aren't up for that sort of thing, replaces Deus ex Machina with Deus ex Player Character.

This BBEG isn't the power play type. He's not the "you're too inferior to even bother killing *evil laughter*". He's the embodiment of Chaotic Evil and crossing him even once means you're dead. The type of character that levels a city because he's bored. No big speeches, no threats, just tramples whatever's in his way to get to his next objective.

A Deus ex machina isn't saving anyone here.

[Zanos]

Have the players informed by knowledge checks, rumors, etc. that the BBEG is tough and plays for keeps.

Maybe they here that the villain straight up slaughtered the last adventures that came after him, and those adventurers were widely renowned for, say, slaying an ancient red dragon. Or whatever power level you want to play the BBEG up to.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Personally, I don't think there's any harm to telling the players "you're not strong enough to do this yet; if you try you will almost certainly all die." (At least, assuming such encounters aren't being used to force players onto a single path). Communicating encounter expectations clearly is important enough to be worth cutting through some of the mystery.

[heavyfuel]

Have the players informed by knowledge checks, rumors, etc. that the BBEG is tough and plays for keeps.

Maybe they here that the villain straight up slaughtered the last adventures that came after him, and those adventurers were widely renowned for, say, slaying an ancient red dragon. Or whatever power level you want to play the BBEG up to.

Like I said, the players are already very aware of the BBEG's power. The problem I believe is they don't normally plan things, they just try to hit the problem until it's gone.

I like the idea of telling that he plays for keeps. That there will be no second chances. But I'm also a big fan of "show, don't tell". Any idea on how to demonstrate such disposition to the players?


Personally, I don't think there's any harm to telling the players "you're not strong enough to do this yet; if you try you will almost certainly all die." (At least, assuming such encounters aren't being used to force players onto a single path). Communicating encounter expectations clearly is important enough to be worth cutting through some of the mystery.

You mean saying this as the DM, or through an NPC? Because they are very different.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I like the idea of telling that he plays for keeps. That there will be no second chances. But I'm also a big fan of "show, don't tell". Any idea on how to demonstrate such disposition to the players?
There's always the old "have them play random kooks for a bit and get steamrolled, then come back later with their real dudes."


You mean saying this as the DM, or through an NPC? Because they are very different.
Both. I mean, try NPCs first, but if they're going to severely screw things up because of faulty communication (ie, "Bob said he was strong, but he said the same thing about those trolls and that was a combat encounter!"), I think it's your duty to correct that. A little word-of-god clarification is by no means game-destroying railroading.

[Dagroth]

If all else fails...

Remember that the villains are just as susceptible to the "Nobody could have survived that!" trope as the heroes are.

Villains (even Chaotic Evil ones) are also susceptible to the "I have things to do, so I'll just leave you to die at the claws of my (insert pet monster)" trope.

[heavyfuel]

There's always the old "have them play random kooks for a bit and get steamrolled, then come back later with their real dudes."


Both. I mean, try NPCs first, but if they're going to severely screw things up because of faulty communication (ie, "Bob said he was strong, but he said the same thing about those trolls and that was a combat encounter!"), I think it's your duty to correct that. A little word-of-god clarification is by no means game-destroying railroading.

Can you elaborate on the first part? I honestly dont know whats "play random kooks"

Alright, will try the npc -> world of god approach.

[Zanos]

He's suggesting they play as another group of characters who's purpose is to get crushed by the villain to show off how tough he is.

Pretty common trick in other media, not sure how well it would work here.