The Legalities of Wish

[Frauxst]

So I somewhat expect to get wish in our high powered campaign, or to stumble upon it in an item. My character is a barbarian but he's actually not stupid, has a pretty decent int score. So I've drawn up a wish he would make and I'd like you guys to read it over and give me feed back.

I, (Insert Name Here) wish for a magical weapon of my own custom design. This magical weapon will be created through the wish and not taken from another source or place and will appear right here for my taking at the end of my specifications, it will not be cursed, detrimental, or harmful to my person through a twisting of this wish. This magical weapon will be a Greatsword of average size, which cannot be wielded, used, or carried in any way shape or form except by myself, (Insert Name Here), though I, (Insert Name Here), may designate a person(s) to be able to touch or wield said weapon through my own verbal or mental cue. If any creature except myself, (Insert Name Here) attempts to wield the weapon, it will be immovable to them and continued efforts to wield the weapon will damage the unauthorized person(s). This does not apply to person(s) I, (Insert Name Here), have designated to be able to wield the weapon or touch it. As long as I am wielding this weapon, it cannot be disarmed or removed from my person unless through my will alone I allow it. While within one thousand miles of this weapon, on any plane of existence, I, (Insert Name Here), can summon it to my hand instantly with a command word I can change at any time I desire through my will and my will alone, summoning this weapon to my hand is a free action. This Greatsword can inflict four extra damage types of my choosing, added to its base damage. These damage types can be any that I, (Insert Name Here) designate during a short rest, and can be changed during any short rest I, (Insert Name Here) take. As a weapon created through wish, it will be of the highest quality, giving it the maximum bonus available due to its perfect magical craftsmanship. This Greatsword will be made of an alloy of blacksteel and adamantine, and it's weight while incredibly considerable (one ton) to other beings struck with it, will feel light as a feather in my grip or on my person and will not weigh down I, (Insert Name Here). As such, this Greatsword can be wielded as a one-handed weapon without impacting its statistics or effectiveness as a weapon. This Greatsword can be used as a thrown weapon with a range of 400/800 feet. This weapon will of course be classified as a magical weapon, as an action once per day, it can be empowered for three full minutes, which can be split up, allowing it to bypass any damage resistances or immunities, this empowerment being activated through a command word I, (Insert Name Here) will designate and can change during any short rest. All of these magical attributes do not require attunement. This, is what I, (Insert Name Here) wish for.

The insert name here is to omit my character's name in case anyone would recognize it. Does this seem like an air tight wish? No way it can be twisted? This is just a plan for something that may not even happen. And testing my hand at legal write ups, heh.

Edit: This is a very proto-write up that I made in about a protracted fifteen minutes. I'm very glad with all of the responses it's gotten. Talking with the DM definitely seems like the best bet. Keep in mind, the legalese is meant to be funny due to the hinted existence at the barbarian having a gem of inter-planar gnome lawyers. But this is mostly an experiment in writing legalese and it seems tenuous interpretations and other explanations are about. So for a new topic, what would be a good wish, beyond the usual capabilities, that can lead to fun twisting or be relatively safe?

[Potato_Priest]

The other people whom you designate to be able to move/wield it will have a lot of trouble, given that it still weighs a ton to them. Should probably specify that as well. Perhaps you should also put in a line that you can't give permission to others to use it while under any form of domination or charm.

[Potato_Priest]

What would you say is the likelihood that we're going to get another thread called "Need Help Finding Holes in a Wish" fairly soon?

[Frauxst]

What would you say is the likelihood that we're going to get another thread called "Need Help Finding Holes in a Wish" fairly soon?

I'm fairly certain my DM doesn't use this website. As for those little tidbits in your previous message, they did come to mind. I wrote that whole thing up in about a protracted half hour so it does need some work.

[Vogonjeltz]

So I somewhat expect to get wish in our high powered campaign, or to stumble upon it in an item. My character is a barbarian but he's actually not stupid, has a pretty decent int score. So I've drawn up a wish he would make and I'd like you guys to read it over and give me feed back.

I, (Insert Name Here) wish for a magical weapon of my own custom design. This magical weapon will be created through the wish and not taken from another source or place and will appear right here for my taking at the end of my specifications, it will not be cursed, detrimental, or harmful to my person through a twisting of this wish. This magical weapon will be a Greatsword of average size, which cannot be wielded, used, or carried in any way shape or form except by myself, (Insert Name Here), though I, (Insert Name Here), may designate a person(s) to be able to touch or wield said weapon through my own verbal or mental cue. If any creature except myself, (Insert Name Here) attempts to wield the weapon, it will be immovable to them and continued efforts to wield the weapon will damage the unauthorized person(s). This does not apply to person(s) I, (Insert Name Here), have designated to be able to wield the weapon or touch it. As long as I am wielding this weapon, it cannot be disarmed or removed from my person unless through my will alone I allow it. While within one thousand miles of this weapon, on any plane of existence, I, (Insert Name Here), can summon it to my hand instantly with a command word I can change at any time I desire through my will and my will alone, summoning this weapon to my hand is a free action. This Greatsword can inflict four extra damage types of my choosing, added to its base damage. These damage types can be any that I, (Insert Name Here) designate during a short rest, and can be changed during any short rest I, (Insert Name Here) take. As a weapon created through wish, it will be of the highest quality, giving it the maximum bonus available due to its perfect magical craftsmanship. This Greatsword will be made of an alloy of blacksteel and adamantine, and it's weight while incredibly considerable (one ton) to other beings struck with it, will feel light as a feather in my grip or on my person and will not weigh down I, (Insert Name Here). As such, this Greatsword can be wielded as a one-handed weapon without impacting its statistics or effectiveness as a weapon. This Greatsword can be used as a thrown weapon with a range of 400/800 feet. This weapon will of course be classified as a magical weapon, as an action once per day, it can be empowered for three full minutes, which can be split up, allowing it to bypass any damage resistances or immunities, this empowerment being activated through a command word I, (Insert Name Here) will designate and can change during any short rest. All of these magical attributes do not require attunement. This, is what I, (Insert Name Here) wish for.

The insert name here is to omit my character's name in case anyone would recognize it. Does this seem like an air tight wish? No way it can be twisted? This is just a plan for something that may not even happen. And testing my hand at legal write ups, heh.

This is multiple wishes and contains metagame language the character wouldn't know.

So I'd probably turn you into a ghost, and make you re-roll.

[Hawkstar]

As a DM, I'd have it ignore everything after the first six seconds of recitation. Or first sentence. All that legalese is wasted breath. Either you get the weapon you had in mind at the time of casting (Leaving the legalese useless anyway), or you get that "oh-so-cool" double-headed Glaive-flail you dreamed about one day using when you were 8 years old and didn't know how weapons worked. Either way, the legalese is a waste of your breath.

[Mhl7]

This is multiple wishes and contains metagame language the character wouldn't know.


Totally agree on the metagame language. I, as a DM, would never allow a character use metagame language in game.

As fare as loopholes are concerned, I understand that you want a:
- +3 Greatsword
- can do 4 extra points of damage, each of which of a different damage type of your choice
- can be wielded in one hand, while functioning as a Greatsword (I would argue that this means that you cannot use your other hand in any way while wielding it)
- has the Thrown property (400/800)
- can bypass resistance and immunity (almost every magic weapon can do that)

Is this weapon worth all the trouble? The +3 is the major feature and by the time you get wish, it is not that unlikely that your DM will provide you with such a weapon.

[Ninja_Prawn]

This is multiple wishes and contains metagame language the character wouldn't know.

So I'd probably turn you into a ghost, and make you re-roll.

Yeah, I'm not granting this Wish either. In general, non-standard wishes are a mug's game, since you'll never be able to close all loopholes and the DM isn't beholden to take what you say at face value anyway. It's better to view them as plot tokens, where some unintended consequences are acceptable.

If you want a custom magic item, pay a blacksmith to forge one!

[Terdarius]

Considering the wish spell description:


Example: You create one object of up to 25,000 gp in value that isn’t a magic item.


The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you.

I would probably rule the item in question is so far beyond these limits that the wish fails and kills your character in the process trying to draw the power needed to create said item.

[Contrast]

As others have said, I'd put the kibosh on this the moment you started using game terms.

As an immediate issue asking for something 'average' size is a mistake. You have also wish for it to have a lot of properties but only wishes for it to not have properties which curse or harm you. So casting a heal spell on everyone it hits or causing everyone in a mile radius to fly into a furious rage (but not targetting you) would still be fine. You're never going to be able to close all the loopholes so the real question is do you trust whoever is granting the wish. If you don't then consider if a high intelligence character would take them up on the offer of a wish :smallbiggrin:

[Aelyn]

DM: "You've said you want it to be 'average' size. Unfortunately, thanks to the long-standing faerie greatsword tradition of the Waddayano Isles, the 'average' (mean) size of a great sword is four inches. Have fun with you magic letter opener."


... As a DM, I would not let that Wish fly. Way too legalese-heavy and reliant on meta game knowledge. What I've put above as a wish-break is a quick and simple way of using the wording of the wish against you.

I would suggest something much simpler - "I wish that the most powerful greatsword in the planes would appear safely in my hands, with all beings accepting me as its rightful owner." Doesn't get you all the features you want, but it has a little anti-wish-break built in, is viable as a wish, and is less likely to male the DM search for ways to mess you up.

[Gawayne]

To be honest, I'm yet to ever see a DM let a player use a Wish to actually do something cool without being 100% screwed in the proccess. Unless that cool thing was the sole reason why the DM gave the player a Wish in the first place, therefore the "cool thing" wasn't made by the player at all. Using a Wish as a plot solving device, what a fun way to use the most powerful spell in the game.

I've played 4 Wizards powerful enough to use a Wish, with 4 different DMs, since 2nd Edition. Got a couple other people playing powerful Wizards in my groups also. And not even once saw anyone suceed in casting a Wish that wasn't either a complete let down, instant death for the Wizard or the DM making a complete joke of it. In fact I believe the single time I ever saw a Wish actually work as expected was when used to kill the Tarrasque.

The Wish spell is the most powerful spell available, spell wich only the most powerful spellcasters of the realm may ever dream of casting. But it feels like it's more of a tool for the DMs than the player. Be it to justify why that NPC/BBEG Wizard is so powerful, be it to have fun crushing the players hopes and dreams of being that cool and powerful because the Wish "wasn't worded carefully enough". And when the spell is carefully worded it just fizzles because "you took too long describing your wish, gotta keep within 6 seconds dude".

Sorry for the rant. I guess I just realized I got 20 years of pent-up Wish frustration in me.

Anyway, anyone got any story of an exciting and powerful 100% player designed Wish that the DM actually rolled with it?

[furby076]

I'm not sure if wish is something rare in your game, or if it's as common as getting a high level wizard to cast the spell on a regular basis. Is your wish a reward for an epic quest or is it something your DM hands out like candy at a candy store? This makes a difference. If this is a rare and once in a lifetime wish - then you can probably wish for something major. If it's common, then your DM may not want you to ask for anything mroe than minor items.

Another thing to keep in mind, the moment you start with your statement, your DM will feel challenged to find loopholes (as another mentioned). Just tell the DM what you want out of game, and wish for it in game "I wish for a powerful greatsword, that everyone agrees is mine, and i can hurl at people with it coming back to me"... There ya go. If your DM is a nice person, he/she will give you what you wrote.

Talk to your DM. It's your best bet. And realize, if your DM wants to screw with you, then no amounts of legalise is going to help you out.

Keep the game fun.

Oh, and a powerful creature coming to try and reclaim his family heirloom is not a bad thing. Kill this powerful creature and take the rest of his magic items. WIN

[Malifice]

So I somewhat expect to get wish in our high powered campaign, or to stumble upon it in an item. My character is a barbarian but he's actually not stupid, has a pretty decent int score. So I've drawn up a wish he would make and I'd like you guys to read it over and give me feed back.

I, (Insert Name Here) wish for a magical weapon of my own custom design. This magical weapon will be created through the wish and not taken from another source or place and will appear right here for my taking at the end of my specifications, it will not be cursed, detrimental, or harmful to my person through a twisting of this wish. This magical weapon will be a Greatsword of average size, which cannot be wielded, used, or carried in any way shape or form except by myself, (Insert Name Here), though I, (Insert Name Here), may designate a person(s) to be able to touch or wield said weapon through my own verbal or mental cue. If any creature except myself, (Insert Name Here) attempts to wield the weapon, it will be immovable to them and continued efforts to wield the weapon will damage the unauthorized person(s). This does not apply to person(s) I, (Insert Name Here), have designated to be able to wield the weapon or touch it. As long as I am wielding this weapon, it cannot be disarmed or removed from my person unless through my will alone I allow it. While within one thousand miles of this weapon, on any plane of existence, I, (Insert Name Here), can summon it to my hand instantly with a command word I can change at any time I desire through my will and my will alone, summoning this weapon to my hand is a free action. This Greatsword can inflict four extra damage types of my choosing, added to its base damage. These damage types can be any that I, (Insert Name Here) designate during a short rest, and can be changed during any short rest I, (Insert Name Here) take. As a weapon created through wish, it will be of the highest quality, giving it the maximum bonus available due to its perfect magical craftsmanship. This Greatsword will be made of an alloy of blacksteel and adamantine, and it's weight while incredibly considerable (one ton) to other beings struck with it, will feel light as a feather in my grip or on my person and will not weigh down I, (Insert Name Here). As such, this Greatsword can be wielded as a one-handed weapon without impacting its statistics or effectiveness as a weapon. This Greatsword can be used as a thrown weapon with a range of 400/800 feet. This weapon will of course be classified as a magical weapon, as an action once per day, it can be empowered for three full minutes, which can be split up, allowing it to bypass any damage resistances or immunities, this empowerment being activated through a command word I, (Insert Name Here) will designate and can change during any short rest. All of these magical attributes do not require attunement. This, is what I, (Insert Name Here) wish for.

The insert name here is to omit my character's name in case anyone would recognize it. Does this seem like an air tight wish? No way it can be twisted? This is just a plan for something that may not even happen. And testing my hand at legal write ups, heh.

'A sheet of parchment appears in front of you. On it are the words 'character sheet' and what appears to be some kind of game stats for your barbarian. You note in the weapon section he is noted to be wielding a weapon fitting the description above.'

Seeing as your character appears to have a worded the wish using game terms such as 'short rests' 'actions' 'free actions', 'magic bonus', 'range increments', 'damage resistance' and so forth, that's obviously what you meant. You get the exact weapon you wished for.

On the bright side, at least your barbarian character has a pretty kick ass barbarian character to play in game.

[Dr. Cliché]

My character is a barbarian but he's actually not stupid, has a pretty decent int score.

Unless your background is 'lawyer', there's no way this would fly with me.

[kladams707]

I, (Insert Name Here) wish for a magical weapon of my own custom design. This magical weapon will be created through the wish and not taken from another source or place and will appear right here for my taking

Either

A. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed, so the wish is null & void or
B. The sword appears in the ground, blade up and must succeed on a strength check (as determined by the DM, who is going to make it impossibly high) to remove it. As it is blade up and isn't actually doing you harm as a direct result of the wish, you take damage trying to pull it out. It meets all the criteria of appearing before you for the taking and it is not the blade harm through the wish but by your own hands.

[Malifice]

The long and the short of it OP is 'don't be a fool when using wish'

Personally, in my games I would go with the character sheet option above. Except you would be sucked into the character sheet so you can wield the weapon in a fantasy game of your own creation.

The text of wish is pretty implicit about what sort of thing it allows, and the consequences for trying to be too smart for your own good.

[ThisIsZen]

Y'know, I'm all for saying "no" as a DM, but gonna go ahead and say that I think arbitrarily killing a character for making a "bad" wish is... honestly, ridiculous. And the fact that the reaction to a Wish attempting to be foolproof is to immediately dissect the wording and come up for justifications as to why this Wish should catastrophically fail is, amusingly, the reason people try to make obscenely legalistic wishes in the first place.

It's an arms race that's always going to escalate, because the GM can always introduce an arbitrary fail point into a wish, since they're god and define reality according to whim. "Well, you see, in the old world legal code, AND technically has a different meaning, so therefore by that interpretation your wish sends you to the north pole naked." The player can't win, but still feels compelled to compete because in theory a GM shouldn't refuse a Wish with sufficiently airtight wording. Despite the fact that the GM can.

I think I'd rather just skip the antagonism and discuss a player's Wish frankly and equitably, and make them aware whether complications will arise or not so they can weigh that in the balance. Not necessarily an "in character" way to make a decision but, honestly, I don't care that much in this case.

[Frauxst]

Gosh I really kicked the hornet's nest of DMs with this one. If they weren't often spoken terms by our DM in game, I could and would avoid those meta words but they're rather available in game and help avoid further legalese. Besides, it's hard to avoid being too smart with a wish where as if I'm too dumb with it I could get abused in more ways then I imagine. I find a barbarian bursting out with proper syntax and such a well conceived idea to be hilarious, which is why I have it written in legalese and whatnot.

In reply to kladams, this is d&d we're talking about. I'm sure the laws of the universe such as the creation of matter doesn't apply. And with the sword sticking straight up from the ground. Just dig around the hilt and get it out. Didn't say anything about the ground being magically impenetrable.

Thanks for the feedback, I'd love to hear more. It's obvious DMs don't like being presented with an intelligent challenge. Can't make everything easy for you guys all the time, heh.

[Frauxst]

Y'know, I'm all for saying "no" as a DM, but gonna go ahead and say that I think arbitrarily killing a character for making a "bad" wish is... honestly, ridiculous. And the fact that the reaction to a Wish attempting to be foolproof is to immediately dissect the wording and come up for justifications as to why this Wish should catastrophically fail is, amusingly, the reason people try to make obscenely legalistic wishes in the first place.

It's an arms race that's always going to escalate, because the GM can always introduce an arbitrary fail point into a wish, since they're god and define reality according to whim. "Well, you see, in the old world legal code, AND technically has a different meaning, so therefore by that interpretation your wish sends you to the north pole naked." The player can't win, but still feels compelled to compete because in theory a GM shouldn't refuse a Wish with sufficiently airtight wording. Despite the fact that the GM can.

I think I'd rather just skip the antagonism and discuss a player's Wish frankly and equitably, and make them aware whether complications will arise or not so they can weigh that in the balance. Not necessarily an "in character" way to make a decision but, honestly, I don't care that much in this case.
This is exactly how I feel. My GM definitely isn't a bad guy but he can be incredibly cheeky at times. I've avoided this cheekiness to a degree in our game. But if ever the moment arose to mess with us hard, a wish would definitely be the way. So I like your thinking, trying to hammer it out civilly out of character. As it is a rather sandbox campaign.

[Mhl7]

It's obvious DMs don't like being presented with an intelligent challenge.

On the contrary, it seems to me that tons of loopholes were found by the DMs on this forum. This is what I call 'accept a challenge'.

Anyway the right way to go is to speak to the DM out of character and ask him, as others have said.

[Malifice]

Y'know, I'm all for saying "no" as a DM, but gonna go ahead and say that I think arbitrarily killing a character for making a "bad" wish is... honestly, ridiculous. And the fact that the reaction to a Wish attempting to be foolproof is to immediately dissect the wording and come up for justifications as to why this Wish should catastrophically fail is, amusingly, the reason people try to make obscenely legalistic wishes in the first place.

The wish spell comes with inherent limits and risks. These limits and risks are explained to the player and are well-known in game.

The wish in the OP does everything but invite monkey paw. My players know me as DM. They would be aghast if someone attempted to use a wish for such an effect. It's tantamount to signing your own death warrant. Or worse.

In any event he is 17th level to be casting wish. With a party that level I'm sure they can find a way to get him removed from his new character sheet form. Heck I might even let them do it with a remove curse. Or maybe divine intervention or another wish.

Maybe that wish would be monkey pawed to have their characters turned into characters of their own. From there the only way of escaping is finding a way out of the roleplaying game they now find themselves in.

Bam Presto; ive now turned the use of a silly wish and monkey paw into an interesting adventure for higher-level characters.

I mean there is being a jerk DM and saying no to a perfectly reasonable wish request. On the other hand there is being a player who is wishing for something silly like infinite wishes or multiple artefact magic items.

If you're silly enough to fall into the second category, you get everything that is coming to you.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Can't make everything easy for you guys all the time, heh.

You do realise how hard DMing is, right?

Anyway. The core issue here is what Terdarius says:
far beyond these limits [of] the wish [spell]

So you want something that the Wish spell isn't powerful enough to give. Therefore, you are forcing your DM to come up with creative ways to stop you, directly adding to their workload for no reason. That's why we don't have much patience for this kind of thing.

By all means, speak to them OOC; you might find that they're happy for you to have the weapon you want, in which case they can just give you the weapon instead of using Wish as a middle-man.

[Gawayne]

...

Thanks for the feedback, I'd love to hear more. It's obvious DMs don't like being presented with an intelligent challenge. Can't make everything easy for you guys all the time, heh.

It's not that DM's don't enjoy a challange. It's that this is a challenge YOU can't win, unless the DM let's you, as you can see by the answers here.

No matter how carefully worded and airtight your Wish is, he will always be able to come up with a reason why it fails if he's not willing to allow it.

So your best bet, as others said, is talking to you DM out of character. He probably won't allow everything you want but, if he's a nice enough guy, he'll be open to balancing it properly with you, so you get your weapon without getting blown up in the proccess.

[Dr. Cliché]

This is exactly how I feel. My GM definitely isn't a bad guy but he can be incredibly cheeky at times. I've avoided this cheekiness to a degree in our game. But if ever the moment arose to mess with us hard, a wish would definitely be the way.

The thing is though, wording a wish like this seems like a direct challenge to him to mess with you.

[Aelyn]

The thing is though, wording a wish like this seems like a direct challenge to him to mess with you.
My thoughts exactly. As a DM, if a Wish is a quest reward I'll lean towards benevolence within reason; if it's a demonic deal I will happily weasel it to the worst possible interpretation; and if it's player-cast I'll play it literally.

I fully expect and encourage my players to use careful wording in the demonic-pact version, but for the other two, trust me as DM - my job is to keep things fun. Try to mess with me, I'll mess with you thrice over.

At some point, I want to run a bored, neutral genie who grants the party a wish apiece for helping him. He'll make it clear that he's giving the wishes as a gift, and that smart alecs annoy him.

His interpretation of the wishes will be directly influenced by the wording of the wish - ask to be rich? Bam! Bag of Holding filled to capacity with gold, platinum and gems, and tell you to enjoy it. Spend ten minutes phrasing it to minimise outs? He'll obey the letter but will do everything in his power to screw you over for not trusting his gift and wasting his time.

EDIT: And if the player doesn't know these baselines ahead of time and tries to pull the above without knowing my attitude to Wish, my response would most likely be "Dude, just say what you want. No need for all the legalese." Similarly, if someone made a terribly-phrased wish to a malevolent being ("I wish that all the money in the world was in this room!") I would ask the player if that's really how he wants to phrase it. Second try sticks, though.

[pwykersotz]

This seemed relevant:

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/labyrinth_puzzle.png

[Gawayne]

Reading some answers here, I gotta say I'm a bit surprised. I've said many times to fellow players that the DM isn't your enemy, they're here to make sure we all have fun, so don't treat them as such. But I'm feeling there are some DMs here who actually think the players are their enemies and are out to get him, and they're more than ready to accept the challange.

There's nothing a Wish can't achieve. The spell do have some base guidelines, so a player has an idea what he can do with it on a daily basis without being sucked in a blackhole in the proccess. But the description is pretty clear that the power of this spell can be stretched as much as your imagination and your DM allows it. It could be used to crush the entire multiverse and everything in it given enough freedom.

If a DM isn't willing to deal with it, just do the same you're suggesting the player should do: Talk to them OOC. Rule it out of the game if you feel like it, just do it before they have access to it. Or say that it can only be found in long forgotten scrolls or magic items, so you can control how and when the players will use it. Be straightforward with your players. Don't give your players a tool they'll be afraid to use and when they do leads to disappointment. And specially don't give it to players if there's a possibility of them botching the Wish and you justifying with "You guys just weren't smart enough with it".

One thing I learned being a DM is that the players will do the dumbest things when you're expecting them to be smart and be the smartest when you're expecting them to be dumb. And witnessing that is one of the many joys of being a DM, so I don't think we should punish them for it. Well, at least not too much.

[ThisIsZen]

But players only feel they need to word Wishes like that because GMs have a reputation for messing with Wishes.

It's just an endless circle of escalation, except like in all things the GM holds a disparate amount of power. A lot of the interpretations in this thread don't really follow from the logic of the wish itself, and are more a reaction aimed at the player.

For instance, if your issue is with the player using game terminology in their wish, tacitly acknowledging the existence of game terminology by magicking the player into a character sheet seems weird to me, since the game should just not exist at all.

I'm coming at this from a GM's perspective by the by, not a player's, although I'm also trying to be fairly neutral in my arguments.

[pangoo209]

The weapon is sentient and wants nothing more than for you to die. The weapon is fully aware of the world it lives in and everything in it, and gives you bad ideas constantly. Your character, of course, thinks this weapon serves you and you alone, and you are convinced that it gives you good ideas and will only try to help you.

[Verisichilli2de]

Gosh I really kicked the hornet's nest of DMs with this one. If they weren't often spoken terms by our I find a barbarian bursting out with proper syntax and such a well conceived idea to be hilarious, which is why I have it written in legalese and whatnot.

Now I'm thinking of starting a Wish Legal Advisory Firm, where the smartest lawyers in the realm help danger prone adventurers meticulously craft air tight wishes, for a premium of course.

[pwykersotz]

Reading some answers here, I gotta say I'm a bit surprised. I've said many times to fellow players that the DM isn't your enemy, they're here to make sure we all have fun, so don't treat them as such. But I'm feeling there are some DMs here who actually think the players are their enemies and are out to get him, and they're more than ready to accept the challange.

That's exactly what this wish does though, it strips out fun from the game. It's incredibly boring to read and parse, and it does nothing except tell the GM that he's obviously so much of a jerk that he'll definitely make this un-fun and legalese is needed to constrain him.

If a player came to me with this wish before game, I'd ask to see the final magic item writeup by itself, make any necessary tweaks, verify it with the player, then roll it right into game. But if they sprung this on me in character, I would twist the heck out of it. I'd probably still ultimately allow it, but not without some conflict first. I promise, no one else at the table is going to be on the edge of their seat when the GM says mid-game "So, what do you mean by that third paragraph? And how does it relate to the clause about..."

[Zanos]

Don't try to draft up tomes of legal documents for making a wish.


You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the DM as precisely as possible. The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance, the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish.
If you wish beyond the typical scope of the spell, even if your wording is ironclad, you're likely to trigger that partial fulfillment clause there. It's separate from twisting the wording. The DM can also simply say it fails regardless of wording.

[Quickblade]

Not bad for a first go but
1. As mentioned for anyone else it will weigh a ton
2. Designate powers on short rest. This could read that no extra damage can be selected until you have a short rest. Just remove this clause as the short test thing is illogical.
3. Too many commas opens up interpretation. Use full stop to make definite statements.
4. Just too powerful.

[Dr. Cliché]

By the way, if you want an analysis of potential loopholes:



I, (Insert Name Here) wish for a magical weapon of my own custom design.

Genie asks you for the design plans.

You'd better have both a scale replica and blueprints depicting the sword from multiple angles and with every measurement included.

If not, don't be surprised if you get a sword that's completely flat or the size of a toothpick.

Also, bear in mind that the genie could simply take this as the full extent of your wish and ignore everything said afterwards (save for that relating to the specifics of the 'custom design').


This magical weapon will be created through the wish and not taken from another source or place and will appear right here for my taking at the end of my specifications

If you're anywhere near stone/rock, then the sword will be embedded in it when it appears in front of you.


it will not be cursed, detrimental, or harmful to my person through a twisting of this wish.

The latter is a useless term. A genie may consider that a wish hasn't been twisted so long as they have enacted it to the letter. Any 'misunderstanding' or 'twisting' that occurs is on the person making the wish for not phrasing it properly.


This magical weapon will be a Greatsword of average size

"I regret to inform Sir that he may be in for a long wait. Now, if you'll excuse me, it appears that I must measure every greatsword that has ever existed and which will ever exist, in order to accurately determine the average length of one."


which cannot be wielded, used, or carried in any way shape or form except by myself, (Insert Name Here),

The blade appears before you, surrounded by a aura of disintegration that affects everyone and everything except you.

As you watch, it immediately disintegrates a hole in the ground beneath it and disappears deep into the earth.


though I, (Insert Name Here), may designate a person(s) to be able to touch or wield said weapon through my own verbal or mental cue.

If you don't specify the exact cue, you can be damn sure the genie will take liberties with it.


While within one thousand miles of this weapon, on any plane of existence, I, (Insert Name Here), can summon it to my hand instantly with a command word I can change at any time I desire through my will and my will alone, summoning this weapon to my hand is a free action.

The weapon is summoned to your hand, point-first and at-speed.

The Genie may also refuse to divulge to you what the command word is. He tells you to ask Will to change it for you. :smallbiggrin:


As a weapon created through wish, it will be of the highest quality, giving it the maximum bonus available due to its perfect magical craftsmanship.

The genie accepts neither your premise nor your conclusion.


This Greatsword will be made of an alloy of blacksteel and adamantine

Tragically, the alloy proves to be extremely brittle and liable to shatter on violent impacts.


and it's weight while incredibly considerable (one ton) to other beings struck with it, will feel light as a feather in my grip or on my person and will not weigh down I, (Insert Name Here).

The genie hands you a book on physics and begs you to read it before casting Wish again. :smallwink:

[Sariel Vailo]

i mean id allow the weapon but i want to clarify something the curse cant harm you. but if i give you the cuddelers curse after combat must awkwardly cuddle one ally equal to length of combat.its not harming anyone gives you everything you wanted,and you become captain cuddles only rping would be affected and if well played you could hug it out with the bbeg.
or the need to take a violent defecate after every single combat or poop thyne pantaloons

[Terdarius]

The problem I have with these kind of wishes is that it's always something overpowered and the player knows it, otherwise it would be no need for legalese.

Creating such an overpowered item would most likely ruin the fun of all the other players in the game because the power gap would be enormous. It's just a player being greedy to the detriment of the campagn and other players in it.

Why not just wish to be one-punchman and end the campaign right there if that's what you want to achieve.
DM:"congrats! your wish has come true! You are now so powerfull that all your foes fall before you and you achieve anything you want without any real effort!"
/campaign end.

[DanyBallon]

But players only feel they need to word Wishes like that because GMs have a reputation for messing with Wishes.

It's just an endless circle of escalation, except like in all things the GM holds a disparate amount of power. A lot of the interpretations in this thread don't really follow from the logic of the wish itself, and are more a reaction aimed at the player.

For instance, if your issue is with the player using game terminology in their wish, tacitly acknowledging the existence of game terminology by magicking the player into a character sheet seems weird to me, since the game should just not exist at all.

I'm coming at this from a GM's perspective by the by, not a player's, although I'm also trying to be fairly neutral in my arguments.

As a DM, my ruling regarding wishes is "don't try to break the game and I won't screw you". As a DM, I would prefer if a player would come to me and tell me what kind of weapon he would like to wish for. If it sound to over the top, I would negociate for some tweaking. But the way OP is wording his wish he's just aksing to be screwed by his DM.

[Hawkstar]

Either

A. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed, so the wish is null & void or1. That is not true in D&D.


Gosh I really kicked the hornet's nest of DMs with this one. If they weren't often spoken terms by our DM in game, I could and would avoid those meta words but they're rather available in game and help avoid further legalese. Besides, it's hard to avoid being too smart with a wish where as if I'm too dumb with it I could get abused in more ways then I imagine. I find a barbarian bursting out with proper syntax and such a well conceived idea to be hilarious, which is why I have it written in legalese and whatnot.The way to avoid getting screwed over by wishes is to not make wishes that the DM wants to screw you over with them. The problem is an unreasonable wish, not the wording. Also - your sword is not a well-conceived idea.


Thanks for the feedback, I'd love to hear more. It's obvious DMs don't like being presented with an intelligent challenge. Can't make everything easy for you guys all the time, heh.Preparing, Running, and Maintaining a game for 4-5 players without the same level of commitment is already a staggeringly difficult intelligent challenge without said players getting smartass about it.

[RulesJD]

*sigh*

You, like almost every person that thinks they know legalese, forgot some verrrry crucial details.

For example, you did not set a duration of the Wish. So the sword you want appears in all it's glory.

And then disappears 0.2 seconds later. Roll a D100, and hope you can still cast Wish after this.

[tieren]

*sigh*

You, like almost every person that thinks they know legalese, forgot some verrrry crucial details.

For example, you did not set a duration of the Wish. So the sword you want appears in all it's glory.

And then disappears 0.2 seconds later. Roll a D100, and hope you can still cast Wish after this.

I was thinking something similar.

I'd probably let the player have it for a day and enjoying feeling like the king of the world for a bit, but the next day it would disappear.

I would tell the player someone 3 planes over wished it was theirs now.

[Frauxst]

I am absolutely loving the responses this thread is getting, and I agree with a lot of them. Though I must say, the point of a wish is that it's a pretty much an endgame spell. Endgame means it's time to get a little crazy, in my opinion. So I was thinking, if wish ever does come along, why not think of an endgame weapon? It's definitely overpowered but it won't instant kill a lot of high power enemies like terrasque or trolls or elder elementals. I'm all for simplifying the wish and leaving it to my DMs discretion, or talks about it with him out of character. My main reason for all the legalese is because it'd be rather funny for my character. It's hinted, even by the DM, that he has an inter-planar team of gnome lawyers to help with certain legal matters. So this big half Orc barbarian just sitting down at a table, pulling out a stack of papers and flipping on a pair of glasses to legal speak himself an amazing Greatsword through a wish, however he may gain it, just seemed like such a funny idea.

Any who I agree with a lot of you, simplifying it and leaving it to interpretation or just talking to my DM. I just found this would be a very funny way to approach it because of the relatively goofy nature of the campaign interposed with serious/logical yet funny moments. Another idea was just wishing for the regenerative power of a troll, short and simple, which would definitely lead to some fun interpretation.

[Sariel Vailo]

I am absolutely loving the responses this thread is getting, and I agree with a lot of them. Though I must say, the point of a wish is that it's a pretty much an endgame spell. Endgame means it's time to get a little crazy, in my opinion. So I was thinking, if wish ever does come along, why not think of an endgame weapon? It's definitely overpowered but it won't instant kill a lot of high power enemies like terrasque or trolls or elder elementals. I'm all for simplifying the wish and leaving it to my DMs discretion, or talks about it with him out of character. My main reason for all the legalese is because it'd be rather funny for my character. It's hinted, even by the DM, that he has an inter-planar team of gnome lawyers to help with certain legal matters. So this big half Orc barbarian just sitting down at a table, pulling out a stack of papers and flipping on a pair of glasses to legal speak himself an amazing Greatsword through a wish, however he may gain it, just seemed like such a funny idea.

Any who I agree with a lot of you, simplifying it and leaving it to interpretation or just talking to my DM. I just found this would be a very funny way to approach it because of the relatively goofy nature of the campaign interposed with serious/logical yet funny moments. Another idea was just wishing for the regenerative power of a troll, short and simple, which would definitely lead to some fun interpretation.

firstly if your dm has a army of intraplanar gnome lawyers in that sense the legal things make more sense secondly fairpoint tougher enemies wont just get one hit. thirdly dont forget a well placed set of traps can end an adventurer. final question does that mean you can get subpeona'd for things you did wrong iin another plane.

[Frauxst]

firstly if your dm has a army of intraplanar gnome lawyers in that sense the legal things make more sense secondly fairpoint tougher enemies wont just get one hit. thirdly dont forget a well placed set of traps can end an adventurer. final question does that mean you can get subpeona'd for things you did wrong iin another plane.
(Insert Name Here)'s legal council has advised him to deny any questions or claims of any illegal or malicious activity he has allegedly committed in this plane of existence or any other. But (Insert Name Here) does assert that he will decapitate anyone who brings such baseless accusations up against him.

That would be my character's reply in the campaign.

[Sariel Vailo]

(Insert Name Here)'s legal council has advised him to deny any questions or claims of any illegal or malicious activity he has allegedly committed in this plane of existence or any other. But (Insert Name Here) does assert that he will decapitate anyone who brings such baseless accusations up against him.

That would be my character's reply in the campaign.

insert name here can you pm me his name i need to use him in a campaign as actual barbarian legal council.and a stat sheet or a list of scores i need to use him

[pwykersotz]

My main reason for all the legalese is because it'd be rather funny for my character. It's hinted, even by the DM, that he has an inter-planar team of gnome lawyers to help with certain legal matters. So this big half Orc barbarian just sitting down at a table, pulling out a stack of papers and flipping on a pair of glasses to legal speak himself an amazing Greatsword through a wish, however he may gain it, just seemed like such a funny idea.

Oh my gosh! Don't wish for that sword, wish to become a client of these gnomish lawyers! Have them justify all your actions legally and serve your enemies with cease and desist letters!

[Frauxst]

So with wish on the table, does anyone have any good recommendations for a wish? Such as something a DM could exploit for fun, or just generally something interesting for a character to wish for?

[RickAllison]

Pro tip for Wishes: Never wish for something that will be the most powerful of anything, by any interpretation. Because as soon as some other adventurer inevitably wishes for the most powerful weapon to be theirs, it becomes your Wish vs theirs (assuming you put in a clause preventing it) and theirs did not waste Wishing power on creating it. Second most powerful is still risky (you risk the first being unavailable at the time), but seventh still gives you a powerful weapon without leaving it subject to such problems.

Here is one Wish that could work: "I Wish for the fourth-most powerful sword in the planes that is capable of changing size to fit its owner and being called to its owner's hand across the planes to be acknowledged as mine by the sword."

I am sure that said wish is prone to DM twisting (as normal), but being ranked lower means that the DM has the freedom to give the sword at a power level that will not break the game (and so not care to twist from that), hits the major limitations of size and location, and doesn't directly call the sword so it won't come with an... unfortunate guest. And it is one sentence. Just enough legalese to cover for obvious problems, but you leave the DM as power arbiter and without enough legalese to make him/her want to smite you.

[Sariel Vailo]

well it depends on a lot. someone wished for an item out of the dmg and i "gave"it to them....... i had them fight a big boss who was using it and an artifact they couldnt attune to unless they were evil they tried they died i laughed they cried

[Battlebooze]

I'd have to give them a great sword that functions exactly as they ask.

Well, aside from being possessed by an arch devil lawyer that requires 5 pages of hand written legal paperwork that has to be properly signed and filled out for each use of the sword. And since most of that wish was meta, I'd require that the player write this out long hand himself, and then I'd check for spelling and grammar, forcing him to start over with any errors. FOR EACH AND EVERY USE.

:D

[Dr. Cliché]

I'd have to give them a great sword that functions exactly as they ask.

Well, aside from being possessed by an arch devil lawyer that requires 5 pages of hand written legal paperwork that has to be properly signed and filled out for each use of the sword. And since most of that wish was meta, I'd require that the player write this out long hand himself, and then I'd check for spelling and grammar, forcing him to start over with any errors. FOR EACH AND EVERY USE.

:D

You're a monster. :smallbiggrin:

[Socratov]

My tip, wish for a sandwich.

Really.

The funny part is that a spellcaster could cast Wish for a sandwich, a simple sandwich, and lose the ability to cast wish forever.

Wish for a sandwhich and hope for that 33% chance of ruining the spellcaster's power forever.

As for a weapon, I support Ninja Prawn, commission one from a famous blacksmith (maybe even use the wish spell to have it point your way and secure the means neccessary to have it commissioned) and be done with it.

Or those lawyers, they sound really, really useful, just be on the lookout for that bill. That won't come cheap...

[Sariel Vailo]

I'd have to give them a great sword that functions exactly as they ask.

Well, aside from being possessed by an arch devil lawyer that requires 5 pages of hand written legal paperwork that has to be properly signed and filled out for each use of the sword. And since most of that wish was meta, I'd require that the player write this out long hand himself, and then I'd check for spelling and grammar, forcing him to start over with any errors. FOR EACH AND EVERY USE.

:D

first rule about making a deal with a devil DON'T

[Frauxst]

I'd have to give them a great sword that functions exactly as they ask.

Well, aside from being possessed by an arch devil lawyer that requires 5 pages of hand written legal paperwork that has to be properly signed and filled out for each use of the sword. And since most of that wish was meta, I'd require that the player write this out long hand himself, and then I'd check for spelling and grammar, forcing him to start over with any errors. FOR EACH AND EVERY USE.

:D

Funny joke.

[Addaran]

So with wish on the table, does anyone have any good recommendations for a wish? Such as something a DM could exploit for fun, or just generally something interesting for a character to wish for?

Check with your DM if the Wish is supposed to be a reward like when you find a +1 sword, a wand of fireball, etc or if it's supposed to be some kind of challenge/game to carefully word a wish.

If it's the first, you can just talk with your DM about what you'd like and if X is too strong. Then in-game your character will just say: "I want a super kick-ass sword to be created"

If it's a game-challenges, best bet is to go with something that already exist: Create an holy avenger greatsword in front of me.

(stolen from a post about epic fail) Or you can say: "I wish we were all fishes." Then watch the DM's expression as you've just TPK his campaign. =P

[Vogonjeltz]

Y'know, I'm all for saying "no" as a DM, but gonna go ahead and say that I think arbitrarily killing a character for making a "bad" wish is... honestly, ridiculous. And the fact that the reaction to a Wish attempting to be foolproof is to immediately dissect the wording and come up for justifications as to why this Wish should catastrophically fail is, amusingly, the reason people try to make obscenely legalistic wishes in the first place.

It's an arms race that's always going to escalate, because the GM can always introduce an arbitrary fail point into a wish, since they're god and define reality according to whim. "Well, you see, in the old world legal code, AND technically has a different meaning, so therefore by that interpretation your wish sends you to the north pole naked." The player can't win, but still feels compelled to compete because in theory a GM shouldn't refuse a Wish with sufficiently airtight wording. Despite the fact that the GM can.

I think I'd rather just skip the antagonism and discuss a player's Wish frankly and equitably, and make them aware whether complications will arise or not so they can weigh that in the balance. Not necessarily an "in character" way to make a decision but, honestly, I don't care that much in this case.

The spell specifies that the DM has great latitude, and the greater the wish the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong.

With a wish that convoluted the absolute best the player can hope for is that nothing happens, and death is definitely on the table. (PHB 289)


But players only feel they need to word Wishes like that because GMs have a reputation for messing with Wishes.

Wish has 6 explicit uses that can't be messed with, and only one of which is totally safe:
1) Cast any spell 8th level or lower. (only totally safe use)

Less safe uses:
2) Get 25kgp wealthier in non-magic items.
3) Make up to 20 people healthy.
4) Give up to 10 people resistance to a damage type (permanent).
5) Give up to 10 people Immunity to a specific spell or effect (temporary).
6) Undo a single event within the last 6 seconds.

Those are all extremely powerful effects.


So I was thinking, if wish ever does come along, why not think of an endgame weapon?

Because that's explicitly outside the scope of the spell.

[Squibsallotl]

If a player presented that Wish to me, I would transform them into the specified weapon.

[RickAllison]

Another option if the Wish is given by a powerful being: "I Wish that you would help me to be worthy of calling you my friend." It would either earn you a powerful ally who could help you in far greater ways, or you end your life in a VERY amusing fashion.

[Frauxst]

If a player presented that Wish to me, I would transform them into the specified weapon.

The legalese presented in the wish omits such an occurrence. Please advise your own inter-planar legal team to buff up on their comprehension.

[Frauxst]

Another option if the Wish is given by a powerful being: "I Wish that you would help me to be worthy of calling you my friend." It would either earn you a powerful ally who could help you in far greater ways, or you end your life in a VERY amusing fashion.

That's is a very intriguing wish.

[RickAllison]

That's is a very intriguing wish.

May have stolen it from the Magi manga/anime...

[kladams707]

Gosh I really kicked the hornet's nest of DMs with this one. If they weren't often spoken terms by our DM in game, I could and would avoid those meta words but they're rather available in game and help avoid further legalese. Besides, it's hard to avoid being too smart with a wish where as if I'm too dumb with it I could get abused in more ways then I imagine. I find a barbarian bursting out with proper syntax and such a well conceived idea to be hilarious, which is why I have it written in legalese and whatnot.

In reply to kladams, this is d&d we're talking about. I'm sure the laws of the universe such as the creation of matter doesn't apply. And with the sword sticking straight up from the ground. Just dig around the hilt and get it out. Didn't say anything about the ground being magically impenetrable.

Thanks for the feedback, I'd love to hear more. It's obvious DMs don't like being presented with an intelligent challenge. Can't make everything easy for you guys all the time, heh.

Perhaps in your D&D world, but in mine (if this wish were made and I used A)...well, even the arcane leylines, which would be used in order to manifest the powers of a Wish spell, are simply another form of energy with which to transform into other energy or into matter.

And I also never said the ground was soft enough to dig around or capable of being manipulated by magic.

[Frauxst]

Perhaps in your D&D world, but in mine (if this wish were made and I used A)...well, even the arcane leylines, which would be used in order to manifest the powers of a Wish spell, are simply another form of energy with which to transform into other energy or into matter.

And I also never said the ground was soft enough to dig around or capable of being manipulated by magic.

You also never said it wasn't. So your mistake ;3

[pwykersotz]

I figured out what has been bugging me about this wish (other than the obvious). The base item is WAY too complicated. I tried to make a list of the properties and got lost.

Try this:

I wish for an indestructible Blacksteel/Adamantine alloyed Greatsword of supreme magical enhancement (+3), that can inflict any type of damage I choose (fire, lightning, acid, cold, thunder, poison, force, radiant, necrotic), that is neither Heavy nor Two-handed but is Light instead, and that allows me to treat all foes I can perceive and have line of effect to as within 5' for the sole purpose of me striking them with this blade. All who try to grasp the sword who I do not willingly allow as an item interaction cannot do so, and I can rescind my permission at any time as another item interaction. If ever this blade and I are separated, no matter the distance or plane, I can recall it to me with but a thought.

Still crazy complex, meta, and OP, but much more understandable. After all, if you're getting this weapon, no one is going to care about you needing a short rest to swap damage types, and tracking throwing ranges is for chumps. Also, that line about bypassing resistance or immunity is useless given that you can freely alter the damage type and that the weapon is magical. Sprinkle legalese to taste, probably including that line about it not being cursed.

[Malifice]

I figured out what has been bugging me about this wish (other than the obvious). The base item is WAY too complicated. I tried to make a list of the properties and got lost.

Try this:

I wish for an indestructible Blacksteel/Adamantine alloyed Greatsword of supreme magical enhancement (+3), that can inflict any type of damage I choose (fire, lightning, acid, cold, thunder, poison, force, radiant, necrotic), that is neither Heavy nor Two-handed but is Light instead, and that allows me to treat all foes I can perceive and have line of effect to as within 5' for the sole purpose of me striking them with this blade. All who try to grasp the sword who I do not willingly allow as an item interaction cannot do so, and I can rescind my permission at any time as another item interaction. If ever this blade and I are separated, no matter the distance or plane, I can recall it to me with but a thought.

Still crazy complex, meta, and OP, but much more understandable. After all, if you're getting this weapon, no one is going to care about you needing a short rest to swap damage types, and tracking throwing ranges is for chumps. Also, that line about bypassing resistance or immunity is useless given that you can freely alter the damage type and that the weapon is magical. Sprinkle legalese to taste, probably including that line about it not being cursed.

DM: 'You die. Whats your next character going to be?"

[pwykersotz]

DM: 'You die. Whats your next character going to be?"

Oh, most certainly. But Frauxst has been quite clear that he believes the DM will play this game, so I'm approaching it from that angle. I already mentioned my opinion on the whole thing upthread.

[Malifice]

Oh, most certainly. But Frauxst has been quite clear that he believes the DM will play this game, so I'm approaching it from that angle. I already mentioned my opinion on the whole thing upthread.

If the OPs DM is willing to play the proposed game, and let the OP's wish fly, (and these kind of antics havent already been reigned in) then I can only imagine the campaign as a whole.

One of those ones you get invited to, sit down at, and then have to leave urgently because... you forgot your mother is sick. Best case scenario, you grit your teeth and play it out.

That may sound condescending to the OP, but I'm old and experienced enough with DnD now not to really care.

Seen it before over the long years of playing. Usually you can iron it out in session one as a DM. Either they learn fast, or they dont come back.

[furby076]

Gosh I really kicked the hornet's nest of DMs with this one. If they weren't often spoken terms by our DM in game, I could and would avoid those meta words but they're rather available in game and help avoid further legalese. Besides, it's hard to avoid being too smart with a wish where as if I'm too dumb with it I could get abused in more ways then I imagine. I find a barbarian bursting out with proper syntax and such a well conceived idea to be hilarious, which is why I have it written in legalese and whatnot.

In reply to kladams, this is d&d we're talking about. I'm sure the laws of the universe such as the creation of matter doesn't apply. And with the sword sticking straight up from the ground. Just dig around the hilt and get it out. Didn't say anything about the ground being magically impenetrable.

Thanks for the feedback, I'd love to hear more. It's obvious DMs don't like being presented with an intelligent challenge. Can't make everything easy for you guys all the time, heh.

This to me sounds like you are looking to pick a fight, either with your DM and/or the "DM" community. It's coming off prickish, actually it just is. Here is an intelligent summation of what the other people here said
1) A DM, can and will screw with you, if said DM wants to screw with you. No amounts of technical babble, from you, will override it
2) Talk to your DM about what you want, and get your DMs feedback if that is a reasonable ask (in his/her mind)
3) Play on

[Hawkstar]

There are three variations from the original with that interpretation of the greatsword:
1. It can't benefit from GWM
2. It never makes opportunity attacks - if you threaten everywhere, you threaten nowhere.
3. The damage implies you change the type of damage dealt, instead of adding it.

[Dr. Cliché]

I think the thing that keeps bugging me is this:


and it's weight while incredibly considerable (one ton) to other beings struck with it, will feel light as a feather in my grip or on my person and will not weigh down I, (Insert Name Here).

Wouldn't that mean that, whenever you hit a creature with it, the sword would have two contradictory weights? It would be trying to weigh 1 ton whilst also being as light as a feather in your grip.

Either it's weight would increase (to be impactful to the target), which would subsequently weigh you down (possibly even breaking your arms). Or else it would continue to be as light as a feather in your hand, and so wouldn't weigh a ton on impact (to the point where it might actually prove ineffective).

[Frauxst]

Oh I guess I didn't address that. I wrote this whole thing up in about a half hour and that's a hold over note. At this point, I've realized things with the wish and I'm working over it. So yes, the weight is contradictory, but I'm going with what m DM has said. We've stumbled upon a blacksteel weapon before. To the user, it weighed the normal weight of a great sword (6 pounds if I remember). To everyone else, it weighed 50 pounds. As is the nature of magic. The one ton thing was just a ridiculous little line I typed out in a hurry, it's definitely a point of contest.

As for the picking a fight with DMs, I forget the word but, excessively colorful with my language. I love DMs and all the work they put into campaigns and players. My statement was supposed to be... Facetious? But I did come off strong with it. And yes, that's the summation of this thread so far furby.

[RulesJD]

I figured out what has been bugging me about this wish (other than the obvious). The base item is WAY too complicated. I tried to make a list of the properties and got lost.

Try this:

I wish for an indestructible Blacksteel/Adamantine alloyed Greatsword of supreme magical enhancement (+3), that can inflict any type of damage I choose (fire, lightning, acid, cold, thunder, poison, force, radiant, necrotic), that is neither Heavy nor Two-handed but is Light instead, and that allows me to treat all foes I can perceive and have line of effect to as within 5' for the sole purpose of me striking them with this blade. All who try to grasp the sword who I do not willingly allow as an item interaction cannot do so, and I can rescind my permission at any time as another item interaction. If ever this blade and I are separated, no matter the distance or plane, I can recall it to me with but a thought.

Still crazy complex, meta, and OP, but much more understandable. After all, if you're getting this weapon, no one is going to care about you needing a short rest to swap damage types, and tracking throwing ranges is for chumps. Also, that line about bypassing resistance or immunity is useless given that you can freely alter the damage type and that the weapon is magical. Sprinkle legalese to taste, probably including that line about it not being cursed.

Yet again, no duration. You get it for 0.2 seconds, then it disappears. Not to another plane, just poof, gone.

[Zanos]

You can't really cheese the wording since the spell also says that effects beyond the listed ones may grant partial fulfillment or simply not work at all. It's right in the spell.

If you're committed to attempting to cheese the wording then just have your first wish be "I wish that all my wishes were interpreted according to my intent, rather than their particular wording." There. It's self-reinforcing.

[Asmotherion]

How are you going to say all that in 6 seconds? Remember that Wish is supposed to be cast in 1 action and you should finish your wishing in 1 turn aka 6 seconds. Unless you're under the effects of a haste spell, wile someone has already cast a time stop spell on you, and at the same time, you are the fastest speaker in all existance, you'll probably not have more than a sentance or two to phrase your wish, and that's already a lot (though realistic, based on other spells that have you speak aloud.).

As a DM, to punish metagaming thinking and wishing for so many things in a single wish (aka abusing mechanics), I would create said weapon, only to spawn a CR30 evil twin of your character created by the wish whose name would be "Eye (you character's name)". who would proceed in picking it up, and cutting you to pieces with it.

I and Eye sound the same after all. :P

[Dr. Cliché]

How are you going to say all that in 6 seconds? Remember that Wish is supposed to be cast in 1 action and you should finish your wishing in 1 turn aka 6 seconds. Unless you're under the effects of a haste spell, wile someone has already cast a time stop spell on you, and at the same time, you are the fastest speaker in all existance, you'll probably not have more than a sentance or two to phrase your wish, and that's already a lot (though realistic, based on other spells that have you speak aloud.).

It's fine, just say that your character can talk like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzbUPfoveok

:smallbiggrin:

[pwykersotz]

Yet again, no duration. You get it for 0.2 seconds, then it disappears. Not to another plane, just poof, gone.

That's why I said "sprinkle legalese to taste" at the end, I was just paring down the function of the weapon to be understandable, not recreating an airtight wish (since that way lies madness).

[KorvinStarmast]

First Principle: Be careful of what you wish for as you are sure to get it.

Second Principle: danger in proportion to cheese
State your wish to the GM as precisely as possible. {this you are trying to do} The GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. The game's basic rule is that the more powerful the effect desired the greater the chance something goes wrong.

Even without that basic point, you really can't out-rules-lawyer a power as broad as "great latitude in ruling" ....although what you and your DM appear to be doing is engaging in "a game within a game" because ... well, it can be fun. It can be hilarious fun, if approached with a playful spirit.

Bottom Line:
DM rulings run the game.
Make the best wish you can within spell description limits, and then put on the big boy pants and accept the DM's ruling with good grace.
Have fun.

[Frauxst]

One action means it takes six seconds to cast Wish not how long the spell lasts, as for the actual duration nothing is listed. And again, my character is a barbarian. So if he ever gets a wish, this whole things has been an if, it would likely be through an item or entity.

I'm glad this topic is so interesting but I'm hearing a lot of repetition at this point.

[KorvinStarmast]

And again, my character is a barbarian. So if he ever gets a wish, this whole things has been an if, it would likely be through an item or entity. What you'll want is a Luck Blade.

+1 bonus to attack and damage rolls
+1 bonus to saving throws.
Luck.

call on its luck (no action required) to reroll one
attack roll, ability check, or saving throw you dislike. You must use the second roll. (One charge, recharges at dawn each day).
Wish.

The sword has 1d4 – 1 charges.
expend 1 charge and cast the wish spell from it. This property can’t be used again until the next dawn. The sword loses his property if it has no charges.
Note that it does not recharge.

[Gryndle]

Thanks for the feedback, I'd love to hear more. It's obvious DMs don't like being presented with an intelligent challenge. Can't make everything easy for you guys all the time, heh.

this doesn't seem like an intelligent challenge though. I am a pretty liberal DM, and I wouldn't let this fly. It stinks of playing the system instead of playing the game.

[Hobbo Jim]

If a player presented this to me I would think of it this way: this is a large vast material plane. You aren't the first to cast Wish, you won't be the last. You also aren't the most powerful or the smartest to have cast it. Now obviously Wizards who are smarter than you and can legalese things don't have endless power because they cast Wish (and only wish) every day. What stops them? Different DMs could have different ideas about it, some because anything beyond the basic wish kills people. I could say that a god gets upset for abusing the arcane in such a way, and you can bet whatever casts your wish won't stop him from picking up your sword, despite not being designated. Or maybe there is a god who actually regulates the use of Wish, even if you aren't using divine magic.

So basically my problem with allowing this kind of legalese is you then allow NPCs to use legalese, in which every wizard that puts all their points into intelligence (Every wizard ever) and reaches level 17 suddenly becomes absurdly powerful, so long as they cross their 't's and dot their 'i's. Especially the ones that aren't adventuring anymore.

Come to think of it this could be a pretty amusing campaign, where the wizards have figured it out and start running rampant. Mission from the gods to end all abusers of wish.

I apologize if this is not the most coherent, I would edit more but my lunch break is ending :smallannoyed:

[Doug Lampert]

So with wish on the table, does anyone have any good recommendations for a wish? Such as something a DM could exploit for fun, or just generally something interesting for a character to wish for?
Stay withing the limits given in the spell, if you do that then it's ONLY the most powerful and versatile spell in the game.

If you're going outside the limits in the rules, make it something that FITS the current adventure! The GM is a lot more likely to go along with something extra if it goes in tune with the rest of the game and makes sense conceptually with what has been happening.

If a Genie gives you a wish because you saved his life, "All I want is your friendship" is likely to work fine (as long as what you want a friend rather than an infinite wish bank), even though it's not on the safe list.

[kladams707]

You also never said it wasn't. So your mistake ;3

I'd argue it's your fault for trying to outsmart/annoy the DM, which is exactly what you're trying to do with all this legalese.

You also never mentioned at what point in time the sword would be yours for the taking, just that it would be there.

Look, as others have said, wish is a volatile spell. You can wish beyond the parameters set, but in doing so you run the risk of all sorts of bad things happening. When you make a wish, if you break the limits, twisting becomes fair game. It is just the nature of the mechanics and was put there to keep players from wishing for (impersonates genie) "phenomenal cosmic powers!".without some sort of drawback

And again, as others have said, the legalese is simply going to be seen as a challlenge to the DM to find a way to mess with you even if your magic weapon isn't all that powerful. It makes it seem like you're trying to get away with something gamebreaking even if it really isn't.

[Frauxst]

Gosh people really do need to read the forum before posting, or realize we've moved beyond that. The repetition is getting boring.

[pwykersotz]

Gosh people really do need to read the forum before posting, or realize we've moved beyond that. The repetition is getting boring.

If you want to move on, then you should post an updated wish so that it can be discussed, and you can add that wish to the OP as well. You can also clarify why this isn't just antagonistic in the OP. Otherwise, you'll get more of this.

[Asmotherion]

First Principle: Be careful of what you wish for as you are sure to get it.

Second Principle: danger in proportion to cheese The game's basic rule is that the more powerful the effect desired the greater the chance something goes wrong.

Even without that basic point, you really can't out-rules-lawyer a power as broad as "great latitude in ruling" ....although what you and your DM appear to be doing is engaging in "a game within a game" because ... well, it can be fun. It can be hilarious fun, if approached with a playful spirit.

Bottom Line:
DM rulings run the game.
Make the best wish you can within spell description limits, and then put on the big boy pants and accept the DM's ruling with good grace.
Have fun.

Basically, this. Wish is like a chance your character gets to make up something cool (either for himself or his party), and yet balanced enough so that the DM will accept it.

"the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong" is at least implying, if not directly saying "The more balanced you make your wish, the less consequences you'll face" or, in other words "The more unbalanced, overpowered and game breaking you try to make the wish, the more the DM will screw you up for it".

[Vogonjeltz]

I think the thing that keeps bugging me is this:



Wouldn't that mean that, whenever you hit a creature with it, the sword would have two contradictory weights? It would be trying to weigh 1 ton whilst also being as light as a feather in your grip.

Either it's weight would increase (to be impactful to the target), which would subsequently weigh you down (possibly even breaking your arms). Or else it would continue to be as light as a feather in your hand, and so wouldn't weigh a ton on impact (to the point where it might actually prove ineffective).

Feeling like a feather, yet still shattering his wrists when it hits, they'd snap off like fragile twigs. Ew

[Squibsallotl]

The legalese presented in the wish omits such an occurrence. Please advise your own inter-planar legal team to buff up on their comprehension.

I disagree.



I, (Insert Name Here) wish for a magical weapon of my own custom design. This magical weapon will be created through the wish and not taken from another source or place and will appear right here for my taking at the end of my specifications, it will not be cursed, detrimental, or harmful to my person through a twisting of this wish.

The magic of Wish re-writes your personal history, such that you were not born to mortal parents, you were created in this moment (by your future self, casting this Wish), as a babe X years in the past, whose destiny is to contribute their life experiences, goals and aspirations to a new sentient artifact.

The magical weapon you become therefore was created by the Wish and not taken from another source or place, and appears right here for your "taking" (your becoming).

It isn't harmful or detrimental to your person, as your mind continues to live on within it. In fact you've achieved immortality and cannot be destroyed except via means that would destroy an artifact.


This magical weapon will be a Greatsword of average size, which cannot be wielded, used, or carried in any way shape or form except by myself, (Insert Name Here), though I, (Insert Name Here), may designate a person(s) to be able to touch or wield said weapon through my own verbal or mental cue.

Your new form weighs a ton, but you can designate a wielder who can lift you normally.


As long as I am wielding this weapon, it cannot be disarmed or removed from my person unless through my will alone I allow it. Sure, you can't be disarmed of yourself or removed from yourself.


While within one thousand miles of this weapon, on any plane of existence, I, (Insert Name Here), can summon it to my hand instantly with a command word I can change at any time I desire through my will and my will alone, summoning this weapon to my hand is a free action.

Your handle is etched and caved with the image of your mortal form's hand. You always have it "in hand".

The logic may be tenuous, but that's how the god of magic (or the weave, or whatever other overarching sentience or purpose your magic system has) has chosen to interpret it.

[Frauxst]

I disagree.



The magic of Wish re-writes your personal history, such that you were not born to mortal parents, you were created in this moment (by your future self, casting this Wish), as a babe X years in the past, whose destiny is to contribute their life experiences, goals and aspirations to a new sentient artifact.

The magical weapon you become therefore was created by the Wish and not taken from another source or place, and appears right here for your "taking" (your becoming).

It isn't harmful or detrimental to your person, as your mind continues to live on within it. In fact you've achieved immortality and cannot be destroyed except via means that would destroy an artifact.



Your new form weighs a ton, but you can designate a wielder who can lift you normally.

Sure, you can't be disarmed of yourself or removed from yourself.



Your handle is etched and caved with the image of your mortal form's hand. You always have it "in hand".

The logic may be tenuous, but that's how the god of magic (or the weave, or whatever other overarching sentience or purpose your magic system has) has chosen to interpret it.
Well, how you've chosen to interpret. Rather tenuously indeed.

[Squibsallotl]

Well, how you've chosen to interpret. Rather tenuously indeed.

That's the benefit of being a DM when a player tries to pull something meta and OP. "A rock falls, you die".

"But I'm outdoors!"

"A couple of stone giants are having a friendly throwing contest a mile away, and one just happens to fall right where you're standing".

"Can I make a Dex save, or move out of the way?"

"The boulder has a diameter of 120ft, and you're directly underneath. Even with a Dash you can't clear the impact zone in time."

"Can I..."

"Nope, no you can't."

[RickAllison]

Well, how you've chosen to interpret. Rather tenuously indeed.

And yet that fits the spirit of Wish! Devils and genies are prone to twisting wishes for their own amusement or benefit, while forming the weapon out of a powerful life-force may be more efficient or the only possible way to create such a magic item. A wish-giver specifically looking out for you wouldn't be as likely to do so, but may find it necessary to have you amend it so it would be possible.

[Frauxst]

That's the benefit of being a DM when a player tries to pull something meta and OP. "A rock falls, you die".

"But I'm outdoors!"

"A couple of stone giants are having a friendly throwing contest a mile away, and one just happens to fall right where you're standing".

"Can I make a Dex save, or move out of the way?"

"The boulder has a diameter of 120ft, and you're directly underneath. Even with a Dash you can't clear the impact zone in time."

"Can I..."

"Nope, no you can't."
That's very unfun and lacking in creativity. Would hate to meet that DM.

[Frauxst]

And yet that fits the spirit of Wish! Devils and genies are prone to twisting wishes for their own amusement or benefit, while forming the weapon out of a powerful life-force may be more efficient or the only possible way to create such a magic item. A wish-giver specifically looking out for you wouldn't be as likely to do so, but may find it necessary to have you amend it so it would be possible.

You're right, though something I'd like to point out. The wish does specify the weapon appears in front of the character for his taking. If he turned into the weapon, it can't particular appear in front of him for his taking. A tiny loophole.

[RickAllison]

That's very unfun and lacking in creativity. Would hate to meet that DM.

So is suddenly pulling out a extended legalese segment to attempt to bypass fundamental restrictions of an already powerful spell. Would hate to meet that player. Am also sometimes that player, though I am not proud of it.

EDIT:
You're right, though something I'd like to point out. The wish does specify the weapon appears in front of the character for his taking. If he turned into the weapon, it can't particular appear in front of him for his taking. A tiny loophole.

I think it still works. It appears in front of him as his soul becomes the weapon, and it is taking him. Rather than being his taking the weapon, it is fulfilling his taking by the weapon, that the weapon is taking him. Certainly an archaic way of using the sentence, but referring to something that is happening to someone as theirs is not unknown even in modern English.

[rollingForInit]

It seems to be that it is never specified in the original wish that the greatsword must actually be usable in combat. It's stated that it should be of the highest quality ... but it could be the highest quality decorative greatsword. It's said that it should be able to deal extra damage types, added to its base damage. But it might just be a blunted greatsword that does 1 bludgeoning damage.


may designate a person(s) to be able to touch or wield said weapon through my own verbal or mental cue.

It doesn't specify which mental cues. The weapon could be created with the cue being "Any creature that the owner has blinked at will be allowed to wield it".


can summon it to my hand instantly with a command word I can change at any time I desire through my will and my will alone, summoning this weapon to my hand is a free action

... but this incredible magic runs the risk of cutting through the Nine Hells to reach your, so anytime you use this feature, there's a 25% chance that you'll attract 4d4 random devils. The weapon itself is not harmful to you; just using this extra feature.

Also, using any of its magical abilities will draw the attention of all beings of power. You are duly informed of this on the item's creation, so that the weapon isn't innately dangerous to you.

[Hawkstar]

Gosh people really do need to read the forum before posting, or realize we've moved beyond that. The repetition is getting boring.The repetition will continue until you get the point.

[Contrast]

Well, how you've chosen to interpret. Rather tenuously indeed.


That's very unfun and lacking in creativity. Would hate to meet that DM.

Every person in tales getting screwed over by djinis has always cried 'No, thats not what I meant!' as the wish took hold. Good to see you're keeping up the tradition :smallwink:

...you do remember you started this thread asking people to rip apart the wording of your wish right? Can't be grumpy when people do just that. Squibsallotl was just pointing out that with the way you're approaching Wish you're choosing to engage in a wording argument with the person who chooses who wins the argument.

If I was a DM and trying to screw you over I'd just try to work my way around the 'curse' clause. Is it a curse to be friendly and happy? You constantly count as charmed by everyone you meet while wielding the sword. Think thats 'detrimental'? Having a sword on you could be detrimental at times as well but you clearly wanted to ignore that as part of the wish. Oh, maybe the sword is a sword when you're alone but whenever anyone else is around it transforms into something totally inoffensive to those nearby!

Alternatively make the sword incorporeal and invisible to all beings except squirrels. You can use it fine (with disadvantage due to the size issues obviously) while you're polymorphed into a squirrel against other squirrels. Otherwise its useless. Though ownership could still prove detrimental if you're trying to negoiate with a group of awakened squirrels. Hmm, seems the wish is unfulfillable, guess the spell fails.

You could try and improve your wish by including a clause saying the sword should have no other properties than those mentioned but then you have to try and mention all the properties of the sword or it will suddenly be frictionless or something.

Don't think thats in the spirit of the wish? Neither is using game terms to try and close potential misunderstandings and, even more than normal, wish very explicitly puts the power in the hands of the DM. As I said previously - its a fools errand to take a wish from a being who will intentionally subvert your wish. If the being isn't attempting to subvert the wish theres no point to the careful wording and if the DM doesn't want you to have what you're asking for the wish will likely just fail or be partially fulfilled (this part of the spell immediately stops anything like what you're trying), as the wish spell explicitly outlines will happen.

If you say your DM is onboard for the challenge, just go into it with your eyes open that the DM will win (unless they want you to win...which is still the DM winning).

[Frauxst]

The repetition will continue until you get the point.

I do get the point, I've stated multiple times that I get the point. I just need to edit the original post.

[Frauxst]

Edit has been made on the original post.

[endur]

I wouldn't overstress wish. Sure write it down, but keep it short and succinct.

Just the other day, I saw a player try to kill himself by adding three extra words to a suggestion. Shorter would have been much better for him.

I'd ditch the command words idea. Have you ever had a password you couldn't remember? Sure you mentioned in your wish that you could change the command words, but what if changing the command word requires you to remember the old command word?

Here's my version of your wish, "I'd like a Great Sword that is as powerful as the Hammer of Thunderbolts." Many other versions are possible (as powerful as xyz famous weapon in your realm).