Hexbladelock Optimization advice requested

[Mikal]

So have an upcoming game soon, had the rolls all ready, when the UA came out. After my initial disappointment in that I can't truly be Link from LoZ since Curse Bringer forces me into using a Greatsword, decided heck with it and moved forward anyway.

Have the build mostly locked down, but have a few options I want to run by others, get their opinion.

Race and Stats are below. Stats were rolled and witnessed. Currently starting at level 1

Half Elf
Str 18 (+1 from Half Elf)
Dex 16
Con 16 (+1 from Half Elf)
Int 11
Wis 11
Cha 18 (+2 from Half Elf)

Plan to get Str to 20, maybe Cha to 20. Will either use heavy armor or medium armor with mastery feat for the extra AC I can squeeze out.

GWF with greatswords, obviously, to make the most out of Curse Bringer, with Great Weapon Master. Will be either single class Warlock, or have a dip in Fighter.

Ranged Option will be Hex+Agonizing Blast, yeah sword beams!


Question 1- Is it worth it to start as fighter to get the heavy armor proficiency, con save, and fighting style?


Question 2- If I don't start at fighter, when should I take fighter?
Question 2a- Should I dip fighter at all?


Question 3- For my first ASI, should I raise Str to 20, or take Great Weapon Master? I'll take both, but which one will give me the greater utility from Level 4 (or 5 if I Multiclass) to 8 (or 9)?

[Sir cryosin]

Why not just go sword and shield. And if you want you can still use the long sword two handed and still use char for attack and damage. You have smite spell.

[Mikal]

Why not just go sword and shield. And if you want you can still use the long sword two handed and still use char for attack and damage. You have smite spell.

Spike damage potential with Curse Bringer requires me to make the pact weapon a Greatsword, plus it's the only way to transfer the Curse during a battle.

If I was going more defensive minded I'd use longsword and shield, bump up AC, get shield master, etc. but since this is an offensive build the higher damage potential is a better choice.

Not to mention with the rolls I got I can make the GS version viable with the MAD. If I had worse secondary stats then the charisma only longsword wielder would be the better option.

[Sir cryosin]

Ok then start as fighter for the heavy armor, con save, and fighting style. Then just go hex blade from there. Or you can go stone sorcerer first lv for HP that gives AC, a few more spell slots.

[Mikal]

Ok then start as fighter for the heavy armor, con save, and fighting style. Then just go hex blade from there. Or you can go stone sorcerer first lv for HP that gives AC, a few more spell slots.

Well... that's where my three questions come in.

To paraphrase
1) Is it worth it to take the fighter level and delay the Warlock progression, or just go straight Warlock

2) If I do go fighter, start as it or MC into it.
--You answered this one tacitly talking about starting as fighter, which is how I'm leaning for the same reasons.

3) When I get my first ASI/Feat, boost Str to 20 or take GWM? Which one provides the best utility until my second ASI/Feat, where I'll do the other.

[jaappleton]

Well... that's where my three questions come in.

To paraphrase
1) Is it worth it to take the fighter level and delay the Warlock progression, or just go straight Warlock

2) If I do go fighter, start as it or MC into it.
--You answered this one tacitly talking about starting as fighter, which is how I'm leaning for the same reasons.

3) When I get my first ASI/Feat, boost Str to 20 or take GWM? Which one provides the best utility until my second ASI/Feat, where I'll do the other.

IMO the best Fighting Style to take for this is Defense. Rerolling 1s and 2s isn't really as great as it seems, to be perfectly honest. Remember you're a d8 HD class, not a d10. Sure, you regenerate some HP when your Cursed target dies. But if YOU don't get the kill, you can't move the Curse. So it's a bit limiting. Higher AC can be a literal lifesaver here.

[Sir cryosin]

Well... that's where my three questions come in.

To paraphrase
1) Is it worth it to take the fighter level and delay the Warlock progression, or just go straight Warlock

2) If I do go fighter, start as it or MC into it.
--You answered this one tacitly talking about starting as fighter, which is how I'm leaning for the same reasons.

3) When I get my first ASI/Feat, boost Str to 20 or take GWM? Which one provides the best utility until my second ASI/Feat, where I'll do the other.

Ok so if your taking a level of fighter you always take fighter as your first level. Because of muilticlass rules if you start as any other class and muilticlass in to fighter you don't get con saves, or heavy armor.
2. I'm debating myself if I want to take great weapon Master with my hexblade. Because with the invitations in the hex in the spell hex there's a lot of things already competing for your bonus action so with that bonus action extra attack when you kill something or crit you won't be getting or using a lot you can get the burning hex or the chilling hex and do consistent damage as a bonus action. The negative 5 for a plus 10 to damage is nice and all. But your lowing your to hit and you won't be using it all the time. So most of the time that hole feat is going unused. You can off set the -5 with the +X invitations or the Spells Elemental weapon and magic weapon. Actually thinking about that that is so f***** up to put those two spells on that list because you can't use those if you go pack of the blade because your pact of the blade weapon is considered magical and to cast a spells on that weapon it has to be not magical.

[Mikal]

IMO the best Fighting Style to take for this is Defense. Rerolling 1s and 2s isn't really as great as it seems, to be perfectly honest. Remember you're a d8 HD class, not a d10. Sure, you regenerate some HP when your Cursed target dies. But if YOU don't get the kill, you can't move the Curse. So it's a bit limiting. Higher AC can be a literal lifesaver here.

I was considering Defense, like you said flat AC is always a plus, but I figured the reroll 1 and 2, while not overwhelming for the blade itself, really helps with the Curse Bringing damage. To my reading, you reroll all damage dice done with the attack if it's a 1 or 2, so if you're rolling 12+ dice, that can be a nice chunk of damage you're potentially increasing by.


Ok so if your taking a level of fighter you always take fighter as your first level. Because of muilticlass rules if you start as any other class and muilticlass in to fighter you don't get con saves, or heavy armor.
2. I'm debating myself if I want to take great weapon Master with my hexblade. Because with the invitations in the hex in the spell hex there's a lot of things already competing for your bonus action so with that bonus action extra attack when you kill something or crit you won't be getting or using a lot you can get the burning hex or the chilling hex and do consistent damage as a bonus action. The negative 5 for a plus 10 to damage is nice and all. But your lowing your to hit and you won't be using it all the time. So most of the time that hole feat is going unused. You can off set the -5 with the +X invitations or the Spells Elemental weapon and magic weapon. Actually thinking about that that is so f***** up to put those two spells on that list because you can't use those if you go pack of the blade because your pact of the blade weapon is considered magical and to cast a spells on that weapon it has to be not magical.

Yeah, I agree with the bonus action. I figured that would allow me flexibility- when I'm not spiking damage or want to hit multiple people reliably, i.e. when cursing, use the burning or chill.

When spiking whether during a curse or not, as a finishing blow, save the bonus action as my cleave. The good thing about it is that I can choose the bonus action after my weapon damage is calculated and I can confirm whether the person is down. If anything, it means my bonus action will be used more often and more tactically, rather than on lucky kills or only during curse timing.

I feel you on the magic and elemental weapons. At first I was "Elemental weapon is awesome for the hexblade" until I remember the non-magic weapon caveat.

Yes, I know non pact of the blades can take hexblade and it's more for them. Still... kinda weird.

[Xethik]

I was considering Defense, like you said flat AC is always a plus, but I figured the reroll 1 and 2, while not overwhelming for the blade itself, really helps with the Curse Bringing damage. To my reading, you reroll all damage dice done with the attack if it's a 1 or 2, so if you're rolling 12+ dice, that can be a nice chunk of damage you're potentially increasing by.

I believe that has been clarified to not work in SageAdvice, using Divine Smite as the example.
That being said, rerolling 1s and 2s is pretty nice on a Greatsword. Not an easy choice between that and +1 AC.

[jaappleton]

I believe that has been clarified to not work in SageAdvice, using Divine Smite as the example.
That being said, rerolling 1s and 2s is pretty nice on a Greatsword. Not an easy choice between that and +1 AC.

This is correct.

It was errata'd to only interact with the damage of the Greatsword itself. And judging from my table, most often it turns a 1 into a 3. Ok, so two extra damage here and there... Is that really better than a flat, constant, +1 to AC? Remember you aren't using a shield with a Greatsword.

Look, I get it. Defense style isn't sexy. It's not more damage. It's not some nice trick up your sleeve. It's... boring.

But it's pretty damn good.

[Mikal]

Well seeing as how I was considering Defense style even when I thought I was rerolling 10+ dice vs. 2, yeah Defense is good and more attractive now.

Still taking the GWM feat though.

[Mikal]

All right, made a few tweaks, since after level 12 you really don't care too much about Warlock even with the new features. Only thing really shiny was the invocation or mystic arcanum and the unlimited Curse ability, which is really the biggest one for me.


As such, decided to do the following. Let me know your opinions. I'm still open to taking Warlock to 14 for the unlimited Curse, so just want to hear arguments one way or the other.

Right now it's
More spell slots for smite
Charisma to damage
Charisma to saves
Second fighting style

-vs-

More Arcanum
Few more spells
Few more invocations (non particularly appealing)
At-Will Curse vs. 1/short rest.
1 extra Feat/ASI


Fighter 1/Warlock (Hexblade...blade) 12/Paladin (Oathbreaker) 7
Half Elf
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 18
Armor use- Heavy when affordable, middle until then if better.
Weapon use- Greatsword.
Fighting Styles- Defense (level 1), GWF (level 15)


Level 1-
Defense Fighting Style

Level 2-
Cantrips: Greenflame Blade, Eldritch Blast
Spells: Hex, Shield

Level 3-
Invocations: Agonizing Blast, Chilling Hex
Spells: Armor of Agathys

Level 4-
Pact of the Blade
Spells: Mirror Image

Level 5-
ASI/Feat- Great Weapon Master or Str to 20
Spells: Hold Person

Level 6-
Invocations: Thirsting Blade, Cursebringer (swap Chilling Hex)
Spells: Fly

Level 7-
Shadow Hound
Spells: Blink

Level 8-
Invocations: Improved Pact Weapon (unless better option available) -or- Relentless Hex
Spells: Hellish Rebuke

Level 9-
ASI/Feat- Str to 20 or GWM
Spells: Staggering Smite

Level 10-
Invocations: Relentless Hex -or- Otherwordly Leap. Swap Improved Pact Weapon if in use for Superior Pact Weapon -or- Otherwordly Leap -or- Ascendant Step.
Spells: Destructive Wave, swap Hold Person for Hold Monster

Level 11-
Armor of Hexes
Mystic Arcanum: (not chosen yet)

Level 12-
Spells: Branding Strike

Level 13-
ASI/Feats: Blade Mastery (+1 hit, +1 AC using reaction, Advantage to opportunity attacks)
Invocations: Lifedrinker

Level 14-
Divine Sense
Lay on Hands

Level 15-
Fighting Style: GWF
Divine Smite
Paladin Spellcasting

Level 16-
Paladin Oath: Oathbreaker
Control Undead
Dreadful Aspect

Level 17-
ASI/Feat: Lucky or Alert

Level 18-
Extra Attack

Level 19-
Aura of Protection

Level 20-
Aura of Hate

[Saggo]

I feel you on the magic and elemental weapons. At first I was "Elemental weapon is awesome for the hexblade" until I remember the non-magic weapon caveat.

Yes, I know non pact of the blades can take hexblade and it's more for them. Still... kinda weird.
It's considered magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance or immunity, it isn't strictly speaking magical.

[Mikal]

It's considered magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance or immunity, it isn't strictly speaking magical.

True, but if you don't have a magic Pact weapon you're going to likely use the invocation to make it such anyway, and use your spell slots for something better than that, not to mention your concentration slot.

[Submortimer]

I'm not even gonna lie: forget about paladin. The boost from Oath breaker is gonna come so late, and that's only getting you an additional 10 damage a turn at most.

You're getting fighter at level 1, so you have Heavy armor and defensive. You'll be sithing at 19 AC as soon as you get plate, and you'll have the shield spell when you need it. As far as feats go, only two really stick out: GWM and War Magic.

You want those 15 levels in warlock, if for no other reason than free +3 weapon. This will do wonders for negating the penalty from GWM, and will make you experience the same kind of thrill Sharpshooter Archers feel.

Obvious invocation choices: thirsting Blade, lifedrinker, +1/+2/+3 pact blade (only need one of those, just swap when you get to the appropriate level), curse bringer (moving the curse and smiting are super awesome, as is stopping movement).

Less obvious choices: Devil's sight (for interaction with darkness), relentless hex (teleporting movement as a bonus action is AMAZING)

I would, quite frankly, never take agonizing blast with this build, and maybe not even Hex. Also, you don't want booming blade:

In a given fight, your first turn should be Cursing a target, casting darkness on your belt, and getting right up next to them; you now have advantage on attacks against that target, while they have disadvantage against you. When they try to escape your darkness Murder Ball(tm), you hit them with greenflame blade boosted cursebringer and make them stay put. Once they die, you heal, auto-move the curse to the next victim, bonus action teleport to them, and attack, hopefully killing them and moving the curse to the third target. You do NOT smite unless you crit, which you will likely do very often.

Assuming you take the fighter dip, this is a tactic you can use from around level 6 on.

[Mikal]

I'm not even gonna lie: forget about paladin. The boost from Oath breaker is gonna come so late, and that's only getting you an additional 10 damage a turn at most.

You're getting fighter at level 1, so you have Heavy armor and defensive. You'll be sithing at 19 AC as soon as you get plate, and you'll have the shield spell when you need it. As far as feats go, only two really stick out: GWM and War Magic.

You want those 15 levels in warlock, if for no other reason than free +3 weapon. This will do wonders for negating the penalty from GWM, and will make you experience the same kind of thrill Sharpshooter Archers feel.

Obvious invocation choices: thirsting Blade, lifedrinker, +1/+2/+3 pact blade (only need one of those, just swap when you get to the appropriate level), curse bringer (moving the curse and smiting are super awesome, as is stopping movement).

Less obvious choices: Devil's sight (for interaction with darkness), relentless hex (teleporting movement as a bonus action is AMAZING)

I would, quite frankly, never take agonizing blast with this build, and maybe not even Hex. Also, you don't want booming blade:

In a given fight, your first turn should be Cursing a target, casting darkness on your belt, and getting right up next to them; you now have advantage on attacks against that target, while they have disadvantage against you. When they try to escape your darkness Murder Ball(tm), you hit them with greenflame blade boosted cursebringer and make them stay put. Once they die, you heal, auto-move the curse to the next victim, bonus action teleport to them, and attack, hopefully killing them and moving the curse to the third target. You do NOT smite unless you crit, which you will likely do very often.

Assuming you take the fighter dip, this is a tactic you can use from around level 6 on.

If you look at the spoilers in my previous posts, I have a lot of that laid out as a level by level break down (at least of the Paladin build.)

I was thinking Green Flame Blade regardless. EB and Agonizing Blast is essentially for three reasons
1) Don't really need other invocations
2) Ranged option for oh crap moments
3) Fun visual of shooting fricken laser beams out of my bad a** sword ala Link from LoZ.

Honestly, I don't see a lot of use out of Hex or any spells. Those slots are meant to fuel Curse Bringer. Main benefit I think of Paladin is extra slots to feed to Curse Bringer smite damage.

Still, you make good points on the +3 pact weapon helping with GWM. Plus that curse at will itself is very tempting.

Would you say fighter 1/Warlock 19, then, or another class progression after Warlock 15?

My thoughts on when to smite align with yours- only for crits, or in emergency situations. Still, extra smite gives me flexibility there.

As for Darkness, I wanted to also make sure I wasn't screwing over the party too much which is why I ignored the darkness/devils sight combo.

If I go more heavy into Warlock vs. Paladin or something else, is the spell slot for darkness worth it vs. the extra smite damage potential, especially if I'm cutting off allied attacks?

Also, will actually be at 20 AC without Shield most of the time at higher levels.
Taking Blade Master feat and don't have much to spend my reaction on, so free +1 AC sounds nifty.

[Asmotherion]

So have an upcoming game soon, had the rolls all ready, when the UA came out. After my initial disappointment in that I can't truly be Link from LoZ since Curse Bringer forces me into using a Greatsword, decided heck with it and moved forward anyway.

Have the build mostly locked down, but have a few options I want to run by others, get their opinion.

Race and Stats are below. Stats were rolled and witnessed. Currently starting at level 1

Half Elf
Str 18 (+1 from Half Elf)
Dex 16
Con 16 (+1 from Half Elf)
Int 11
Wis 11
Cha 18 (+2 from Half Elf)

Plan to get Str to 20, maybe Cha to 20. Will either use heavy armor or medium armor with mastery feat for the extra AC I can squeeze out.

GWF with greatswords, obviously, to make the most out of Curse Bringer, with Great Weapon Master. Will be either single class Warlock, or have a dip in Fighter.

Ranged Option will be Hex+Agonizing Blast, yeah sword beams!

Are you playing to playtest or to optimise. If the first, I suggest against multiclass. If the second, yes, go Figher 1, or even 2 if you start at a level higher than 1, and then go Warlock 2. From here, you can go back to Figher, to save yourself one Invocation spent for your 2nd attack. Go fighter 6, to get an ASI, and then full Warlock X.

Your ASI should be Cha>Str>Con>everything else, since you go for Full Plate, don't waste ASI on Dex. Take the Two Weapon Fighter FS and use ASIs on Dual Wielder (+1 on AC) and Heavy Armor Master for DR. This way you stack more attacks for your Hex+Hexblade's Curse to stack Damage on. You do use your Cha on them after all.

Your Str would be just fine with a +3 modifier anyway, you only need it for your Eldritch Smite Weapon (I'm borrowing the term from an other source, as I loved it). It's enough to hit everything, and a +2 damage on a hit that deals 10d8 is not that much of a big deal. If you feel you want an even better chance to-hit, you can always get Faerie Fire by going Drow Half-Elf Variant (from scag) and get Drow Elf racial spells including Faery Fire.

[skaddix]

Not sure I see the point of going 5 Levels Fighter just to save burning one Invocation on Extra Attack. Especially since the poster isn't going to be abusing Darkness and thus doesn't need Devil's Sight.

Suggest a Comparison beyond 1 because you need one to get Heavy Armor and a Fighting Style, probably Defense or Great Weapon Master.

I say viable Level Dips after 1 are 2,3 and 5. Obviously more Fighter gets you a slight boost in HP.

2: 8 Invocations, 9th Level Spell (Foresight is Great), An ASI, Action Surge
3: 7 Invocations, 9th Level Spell (Foresight is Great), Then you have a choice EK or BM? EK for 3 Cantrips and 2 1st Level Spell Slots or 4 Combat Superiority Die to Spend on 3 Maneuvers which recover on short rest which you will be taking as a Warlock. Action Surge, Lose the ASI.
5: 7 Invocations, No 9th Level Spell, Keep The ASI, IF EK get Another 1st Level Spell Slot, Lose a 5th Level Spell Slot as Warlock, Action Surge.

I think that is right. Personally I am partial to the EK 3/Warlock 17

Plus you can save another Invocation if your DM is generous with the + Weapons.
I second the use of Drow Half Elf Variant though that is a nice move. And yeah CHA > STR > CON. Drow Magic lets you get Darkness and Faire Fire. Darkness saving you a Spell Known. Granted you can only use it once a day but if you don't plan to be abusing Darkness on the Regular that is not a bad option.

Invocations Varies but you will have 7 or 8: Agonizing Blast, Curse Bringer, Pact Weapon, Relentless Hex, Life drinker, Thirsting Blade, Devil Sight, Fiendish Vigor

[Sir cryosin]

If your taking the first level of fighter and don't want to say full warlock. Go warlock tell level 15 and finish in Eldritch Knight for a few extra spell slots and action surge.

[jaappleton]

Hexblade 5 / Sorcerer 15

Hexblade 5 gets you third level Warlock slots. Two per short rest.
Take the Curse Bringer and Thirsting Blade invocations.
You're at two attacks, and can 'Smite'

Now, why Sorcerer?

Quickened Hold Person
Attack, smite, double all damage dice. And remember, your Smite is VERY different from a Paladins. You get +2d8 per spell level. So here's the math of a level 5 Hexblade attacking, and smiting, the target of Hold Person, assuming 18 Strength. Both swings, both Warlock slots being used for your smite.

8d6 + 8 + 24d8 = 144 on average

That's not incorporating Hexblade's curse. That's just you, at level 5, hitting a paralyzed target.

Sorcerer gets you more than Metamagic. It gets you more spell slots, Haste, gets you great AoE spells, etc.

Lets say your Wizard friend casts Hold Person. Now you can run up to the target, quicken Eldritch Blast, and then unleash your sword swings.

Hexblade / Sorc is so damn good its ridiculous. In my mind its very superior to the PalaSorc. Curse Bringer >>> Paladin Smite. Of course, if you're in an Undead heavy campaign, its another argument, but overall? Yeah, give me the Hexblade.

[Dr. Cliché]

Why not just go sword and shield.

Bear in mind that sword and shield will prevent you from casting any spells with somatic components, unless you drop one of them.

[jaappleton]

Bear in mind that sword and shield will prevent you from casting any spells with somatic components, unless you drop one of them.

Plus doesn't let you use Curse Bringer. Which then makes Hexblade the ONLY Warlock type (since it seems Undying and Undying Light have been abandoned, as they were ignored in the UA) that can't use a 'smite' like Ability.

[joaber]

I like hexblade 17/ samurai 3
Samurai gives you 3x short rest advantage in all attacks for total 6 rounds + resistance to most common damages for 3 rounds with works freat with armor of aghatys.
Advantage in all attacks is amazing with double chance of crit or GWM. And a samurai hexblader looks fun to play. I would go as aasimar

Hexblade 3 / old favored soul 17 too, pick extra attack as sorcerer, plus spells in cleric list, but the extra attack with hexblade fluff only come in level 9, what sucks when you start at 1.

[Sir cryosin]

Why don't we just play a full hexblade first to get better understand for the class. On Tuesday I got to roll up my hexblade. I went vhuman feat for heavy armor. We roll stats and I got good one in order 16,14,17,10,10,18. At lv 4 I picked up tough feat. I'm lv 5 I have burning hex, Cruse bringer, thirsting blade.

[Mikal]

Why don't we just play a full hexblade first to get better understand for the class. On Tuesday I got to roll up my hexblade. I went vhuman feat for heavy armor. We roll stats and I got good one in order 16,14,17,10,10,18. At lv 4 I picked up tough feat. I'm lv 5 I have burning hex, Cruse bringer, thirsting blade.

I'm sure plenty of people are doing regular playtests. I'm not wanting to playtest it, just play, and get the best I can, hence the title and tag for optimization.

Otherwise I'd just go straight HB.

[Sception]

Playtests based on rolled stats that are dramatically above any spread possible under standard point buy are going to dramatically undersell any MAD problems the tested content has.

four stats at or above 14 before racial mods just isn't something most players will get to enjoy, and in particular isn't even possible under the default stat method. Which is a problem for the hexblade, because, as written, that's exactly the kind of stat spread they need to function, given their dependence on moderate-to-high scores in Strength (for Curse Bringer, curse shifting is too essential for the hexblade to consider it optional), Dex (need that +2 mod for AC, really can't skimp since even with it your AC isn't going to be great for melee, and you don't have the fiendlocks prickliness to make up for it), Con (you're a melee class, gotta have those hitpoints), and Cha (you don't need it maxed, but a lot of your invocations and subclass features still depend on it).

In a regular game, with a regular stat spread, you just can't do that all the time. You need to drop one of those stats, and str, con, and cha can't really be dumped, so basically you need heavy armor from somewhere in order to ditch Dex. A fighter dip just happens to be, by a wide margin, the least costly way to get it.


Now, in OPs game, where they DO have that many high scores? Skip the fighter dip, you don't need it, just play straight hexblade. But I wouldn't consider that to be a meaningful test of the hexblade's functionality more generally.

[Mikal]

...Except again, this is about optimizing the Hexblade's power.
So unless straight Hexblade is arguably more powerful than multiclassing... straight Hexblade is actually bad advice for this thread, since it's not about playtesting.