Marvel hates Captain America

[Grod_The_Giant]

they do. Think about it- they demolished the Avengers, then killed him. In the middle of a street. By a sniper. (although I'm all but counting days 'tll he's revived). And I'm not even going to go into what they did to his supporting characters.

[Xuincherguixe]

I think the audience hates Captain America too.

If Civil War wasn't handled so haphazardly I'd have said it'd have been a great move. You've got to admit there's some real symbolism going on when the symbol of America gets shot because he gives in to people who find the idea of freedom to dangerous to tolerate.

I don't really like the guy either (I'm Canadian, I'm obligated to hate him :P), but he could have gone out better. Not really fair to the Cap fans out there.

[Gavin Sage]

Marvel didn't kill Captain America. Ed Brubaker did, and its the best comic Marvel is putting out. There is a subtle but extremely important difference, as the former is at its core a marketing ploy while the latter is an excellent piece of story telling under the theme the author has been using since his first issue.

I honestly don't think people who have issues with Cap's death have been reading his book, or much of anything dealing with the incident except by second hand.

[kpenguin]

Well, Canada has had a SHRA for some time now, so you should be on Tony's side, right?

Anyway, I don't think the audience hates Cap. I don't even think Marvel hates Cap. I think that Joe Quesada hates Marvel.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Anyway, I don't think the audience hates Cap. I don't even think Marvel hates Cap. I think that Joe Quesada hates Marvel.

Aahhh, that'd be it. Now I remember why I stick to DC.

[Rob Knotts]

they do. Think about it- Cap's portrayal in the Utimates is all the proof I needed.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think it's mostly Joe Quesada hates everyone.

[Wolfwood2]

I honestly don't think people who have issues with Cap's death have been reading his book, or much of anything dealing with the incident except by second hand.

But reading his book would be voting with our dollars in favor of the death storyline. Since sales are the only sort of fan-input Marvel cares about, not buying/reading a book is the only effective way to protest it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

and hasn't his book been canceled? Otherwise, he'll be back for sure. It worked with Superman, after all. Of course, Superman had a much better and simpler story.

[selfcritical]

But reading his book would be voting with our dollars in favor of the death storyline. Since sales are the only sort of fan-input Marvel cares about, not buying/reading a book is the only effective way to protest it.

Except that the story itself is VERY VERY good, in fact one of the BEST stories currently being published, so protesting it is counterproductive unless you really dislike people having the creative freedom to write good stories.

[selfcritical]

and hasn't his book been canceled? Otherwise, he'll be back for sure. It worked with Superman, after all. Of course, Superman had a much better and simpler story.

There is positively no way in which I would describe the Death of Superman as a better story than Brubakers Captain America run. And I LIKE superman.

[Hushdawg]

I think the reverent treatment of Cap through the "Fallen Son" books is simply amazing.

The America that Captain America stood for is gone; this new America that has been ushered in with the 21st century is something different.
Captain America has to change in order to clarify who and what he is. Remember that he has always been very conscious of what he stands for. This is why, in the 1970s, he took off the uniform and went by the name "Nomad" meaning "one without a country" because he was angry with the government of the day.
This is no different.

Marvel is using the platform to make a political statement about the ideologies of America that have made it great have been destroyed, silently yet in full view of the public and the perpetrators have gone unpunished.
It is brilliant storytelling if you look at everything that is being said.

I wouldn't compare the storytelling of the Death of Superman to the storytelling of Death of Captain America. The purpose and function of the two stories are completely different as are the circumstances of death.

Superman and Captain America are very similar characters and this is why every time DC and Marvel have run the merged characters these two have been combined. Even though the power sets are totally different, the ideals which they hold are completely alike.

[Gavin Sage]

But reading his book would be voting with our dollars in favor of the death storyline. Since sales are the only sort of fan-input Marvel cares about, not buying/reading a book is the only effective way to protest it.

I'm not talking merely about issue #25 but issues #1-24. In other words those who had been reading the book in the first place, or even given an issue or trade a through read.

Put simply you are unjustly protesting one of the best if not the best Marvel has been putting out for over two years.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I stand corrected on the Cap series. I didn't even know if it was still being published.

And when I said that The Death of Superman had better writing the the death of Captain America, I meant Civil War. And, of course, the circumstances of the death. Cap was randomly gunned down in the street, Superman fought to the death with a creature powerful enough to defeat the rest of the JLA and that quite possibly would, if he fell, destroy life as we know it on Earth.

[....]

I stand corrected on the Cap series. I didn't even know if it was still being published.

And when I said that The Death of Superman had better writing the the death of Captain America, I meant Civil War. And, of course, the circumstances of the death. Cap was randomly gunned down in the street, Superman fought to the death with a creature powerful enough to defeat the rest of the JLA and that quite possibly would, if he fell, destroy life as we know it on Earth.

It wasn't random. He was assassinated for doing what he believed was right.

Not only that, but before that Cap had to do something harder than dying for what you believe in; giving up for it.

[UglyPanda]

There was some lead-up towards Captain America's death, while Superman's death just happened and the explanation for it was given much later. I personally think that Doomsday doesn't make much sense, how can a kryptonian bodybuilder (Superman) defeat a kryptonian abomination (With enough power to wipe out the kryptonian dinosaurs)?

Anyway, you're comparing apples to oranges. Captain's death was meant to prove a point, be an ending to a major story arc, and be symbolic of America's state of mind. Superman's death was meant to be temporary, set up its own story arc, and show the reliance of the DC universe on Superman.

[kpenguin]

Actually, he was assassinated by someone who's hated him long before the events of Civil War. The recent event simply gave him the window of opportunity.

[....]

Actually, he was assassinated by someone who's hated him long before the events of Civil War. The recent event simply gave him the window of opportunity.

Well yeah, but Skull hates Cap for, you know, fighting for American Values. Which is what he was doing in CW.

[psycojester]

I think he means Joe Quesada not Red Skull.

[kpenguin]

I think he means Joe Quesada not Red Skull.

Nope, I meant Red Skull.

[psycojester]

Oh well, it works for both

[Hushdawg]

True enough. Red Skull has been fighting Captain America for over 60 years.

I feel better about Cap being killed by a long-time villain than a new guy that comes out of nowhere.

Or Tony Stark... If Iron Man had actually killed Cap with his own hands then I would have totally stopped reading Marvel.

Not kidding.

[Blue Paladin]

I personally think that Doomsday doesn't make much sense, how can a kryptonian bodybuilder (Superman) defeat a kryptonian abomination (With enough power to wipe out the kryptonian dinosaurs)?Well the Kryptonian bodybuilder now has yellow sun superpowers. So now he's able to take on the Kryptonian abomination (who got his superpowers differently, through a series of deaths/rebirths). Ergo, Superman can wipe out the Kryptonian dinosaurs. Not that that has anything to do with anything, but whatever :P

[Gavin Sage]

Regarding Supes bout with death, I'll only say that Doomsday should have been left without an origin and never have been seen again. His origin is completely underwhelming as well as the story that introduced it. For the Death of Superman in general the stories are radically different and I hesitate to pass judgement on any comparasion, save that Supes was more about doing the unthinkable/impossible.

While Cap's death is more of an American tradgedy. He did not go out unheroically, but yes it wasn't a glorious battle either. I'd say blazes of glory are rather cliche for comics though. Cap being shot suddenly.... the whole thing has been enough to make one want to cry and that's a good thing.

[....]

Just off-topic...

I was never really clear on how Supes came back... whats up with that?

[Lord of the Helms]

I was never really clear on how Supes came back... whats up with that?

He's got Super-Coming Back From the Dead among his powers.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Just off-topic...

I was never really clear on how Supes came back... whats up with that?

he never technically died, according to comics. He went into a coma or something where Earth medical examiners couldn't find any life signs. Then the Eradicator took his body and put it in some machine that bathed it in concentrated sunlight. I think. Still, the whole thing (based on a combination of bad sales and TV show continuity worries) worked.

[Gavin Sage]

I was under the understanding its more like he was dead in the same way anyone can die when their heart stops, only Kryptonians have reaalllllyyy good defibrillators.

Gets into how one defines "death" when you get down to it. They did have a comic of Clark flying around with the dead people though if I remember right.

[Hushdawg]

I was under the understanding its more like he was dead in the same way anyone can die when their heart stops, only Kryptonians have reaalllllyyy good defibrillators.

Gets into how one defines "death" when you get down to it. They did have a comic of Clark flying around with the dead people though if I remember right.

Superman died.

His spirit went out of his body and was forced back by his ancestors.

The Eradicator was the only one of the four pseudo-Supes that even cared about getting the real Superman back. What he did was to reconstruct Superman and then they went off to fight the Cyborg. Well, Hank Henshaw (the Cyborg) used a powerful weapon against Superman and the Eradicator stepped in-between them. The weapon destroyed the Eradicator and bombarded Superman with the irradiated remains which ultimately gave Supes his powers back and augmented them with several others.

This culminated as Superman became a pure energy being and split into Superman Red/Superman Blue. Following this convaluded storyline, however, Superman finally returned to normal.

[....]

So......

Superman died... but he got better?

[RandomNPC]

So......

Superman died... but he got better?

that about sums it up.

[horseboy]

Frank Castle is the new Captain America :smallcool:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Frank Castle is the new Captain America :smallcool:
The scream:
:eek: AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

[kpenguin]

I agree with Grod, but I do request he change his post as to not stretch my screen.

[Xuincherguixe]

The Punisher as Captain America is a real statement too. Think about it, guy who goes around murdering people left right and center is "more fit" to wear the colors of the American flag than a guy who wants to protect civil rights.

Well, maybe or maybe not more fit. A gun totting psychopath as a symbol of America on it's own is saying something.

If only I could believe Marvel was saying that it isn't necessarily something good, kind of lost a lot of faith in those guys.

[....]

I thought the Punisher just got dressed up as Cap by Hatemonger as some sick joke?

[T.Titan]

I can't remember for sure, but i think Frank made the suit after seeing Hate-Monger in his Cpt America with Nazi insignia imitation suit.

[Vuzzmop]

Captain America has no universal relevance, so he was bound to be killed off once someone in the USA discovered that there are other countries. He's been going down slowly since the Vietnam War. The idea (no offense to any united statesians out there) of an uber patriotic American who fights for freedom and equality while wearing an american flag seems contradictory to most people at this time. I don't think they will bring him back in this continuity, because he wasn't killed in a fight with a super-villain, he was shot by a sniper. It just seems like a perfect move by Marvel to kill him off, and do it in a politically significant way, being destroyed by those who are afraid of freedom.

[Rob Knotts]

Captain America has no universal relevance, so he was bound to be killed off once someone in the USA discovered that there are other countries. He's been going down slowly since the Vietnam WarMarvel is an American company, and the majority of thier market is still U.S. customers, so for all intents and purposes Captain America has very strong universal relevance. No offence to Marvel fans outiside the U.S., they're just not the primary audience.
The idea (no offense to any united statesians out there) of an uber patriotic American who fights for freedom and equality while wearing an american flag seems contradictory to most people at this time.There's a flipside to that, however. Captain America was/is an uber-patriotic American who fights for freedom and equality even when his country doesn't. He represents the qualities Americans want to see in thier country, whether the country is living up to them or not. Now Ultimate Captain America, that's a little different...
I don't think they will bring him back in this continuity, because he wasn't killed in a fight with a super-villain, he was shot by a sniper. It just seems like a perfect move by Marvel to kill him off, and do it in a politically significant way, being destroyed by those who are afraid of freedom.There really isn't a question of him not coming back. Fundamentally the Marvel Universe (as well as DC) is a marketing brand, and Captain America is one of the most iconic properties of that brand. His death might fit into Marvel's current storyline, but in the long run Captain America is a product Marvel can't afford not to bring back.

Even if Joe Quesada makes the decision to leave Captain America dead, the next editor-in-chief will just dig him up and be congratulated for bringing back a classic Marvel character (and leaving Cap dead might get Quesada replaced that much sooner).

[horseboy]

I can't remember for sure, but i think Frank made the suit after seeing Hate-Monger in his Cpt America with Nazi insignia imitation suit.

Yup, Punisher War Journal 8. (Apparently they started over, again :smallfurious: ) Must say I like the new outfit. :smallsmile:

[Scientivore]

Captain America has no universal relevance, so he was bound to be killed off once someone in the USA discovered that there are other countries. He's been going down slowly since the Vietnam War. The idea (no offense to any united statesians out there) of an uber patriotic American who fights for freedom and equality while wearing an american flag seems contradictory to most people at this time. I don't think they will bring him back in this continuity, because he wasn't killed in a fight with a super-villain, he was shot by a sniper. It just seems like a perfect move by Marvel to kill him off, and do it in a politically significant way, being destroyed by those who are afraid of freedom.

Actually, we call ourselves "Americans", not "united statesians". Now you know! :smallcool:

[Turcano]

Actually, we call ourselves "Americans", not "united statesians". Now you know! :smallcool:

And knowing is half the battle.

[Vuzzmop]

"The more you know", ding! Anyway, I just think it's a little odd that you call yourselves "americans" when so are Brazilians, mexicans, canadians etc. Anyway, heres to CA staying dead until they truly run out of ideas.

[Mysteryman64]

Well, technically the full name of the country is the United States of America. Which is really confusing if you think about it too long, because the name implies that it's just a compilation of states, and not necessarily a country. Regardless, Americans does fit if you use the proper name of our county. After all, we're Americans as well as North Americans. Canada can only claim one of those.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Anyway, heres to CA staying dead until they truly run out of ideas.

But killing Cap' was their last idea.

[horseboy]

Well, technically the full name of the country is the United States of America. Which is really confusing if you think about it too long, because the name implies that it's just a compilation of states, and not necessarily a country. Regardless, Americans does fit if you use the proper name of our county. After all, we're Americans as well as North Americans. Canada can only claim one of those.

Well, we are a Federated Republic.:smallamused: At least until the American Civil War.