Planning a houserule - no starting gold

[Jon_Dahl]

"If you create a character that is at 6th level or higher, and you decide that your starting gold is 10 gp or less, you can add one extra level for your character. E.g. A 6th-level character with the starting gold of 10 gp would receive a level, thus becoming a 7th-level character."

I haven't spoken with my players yet, I want to speak with you guys first. (This houserule was inspired by the "No wealth PC = what CR?" thread).

I know that this would hurt the mundanes, but it's for those players who want to make escaped slaves...

[BearonVonMu]

As you said, it would hurt mundanes, the group of classes/characters who need all the help they can get.
One possible alternative for escaped slaves is that they stole something of value on their way out. A piece of art, a weapon from the guard they overpowered, or even possibly an expensive slave collar.
Otherwise, you might get close to a party full of characters that can operate without gear: casters, perhaps a soulknife...

[Fouredged Sword]

Maybe if you did a "start with NPC wealth, gain a free LA race or template bought off" rule would work better. You don't want zero wealth as that just makes some classes completly unable to survive such a restriction and others won't notice, nor do you want a party of mixed levels very much.

[Uncle Pine]

This sounds like a terrible idea: it doesn't only hurt mundanes more than spellcasters, it lures players into the illusion that they'll gain any benefit while hurting everyone in terrible ways (except for Druids, maybe). Even a mere blank spellbook costs 15 gp, unless you go for an Eidetic Wizard. The whole CR system, which already has its own share of problems, relies on players being appropriately equipped for their level to not die in horrible ways. Guess what happens when a character starts a game naked?

Realistically speaking, players who want to play escaped slaves already have various alternatives.
1) They're 1st- or 2nd-level characters and are actually naked. This sucks, but at these levels there wouldn't be much equipment to speak of anyway. It won't be easy to survive enconters of equal level if you're alone, but you can kill the first Commoner you see, steal his pitchfork and start anew reasonably easy. If you escaped with a few dozens slaves, expect to survive because others are killed first. If you escaped with hundreds of other slaves, then you've most likely been saved by someone else who will probably be able to make use of a trained (at least compared to a Commoner) fighter and will provide decent equipment in exchange for loyalty.
2) They're mid- to high-level characters who escaped but had to leave their equipment behind. In this case, it has to be somewhere, either locked away or in the enemy's hand. There is a limit on how much you can work out in prison, so if you're playing a 7th-level fantasy slave expect at least a 6th-level equipment stored somewhere in the bad guys' fortress. Your priority should be to either retrieve it as soon as possible, pledge allegiance to whoever rescued in order to be properly equipped or gank the first monk you encounter on the road.
3) If you somehow managed to be a high-level character that was either enslaved naked or gained 12 levels while standing in a 3-ft.-square prison cell with 3 other people for a few years. You escape alone and you know your stuff is nowhere to be found because you had none or the BBEG completely destroyed. You die alone in the wild as soon as you meet a hostile invisible/incorporeal/flying/spellcasting creature of your DM's choice.
4) They characters take Vow of Poverty, so they can more or less survive in the wild until they get back to a city but now they have Vow of Poverty.


Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong in wanting to play an escaped slave. However, "escaped naked slave" is as much of a gimped character concept as "blind archer", "95 years old human fighter", etc. If you want to play a character like that, you should work with your DM to tweak the concept so that you don't die in the first session of the campaign because you're terrible, or you will. The houserule you propose looks more like a trap than a solution.

[Zanos]

A spellbook is worth more than 10gp, and I believe spell component pouches are worth 15, so it hurts classes that need those two things pretty badly.

Clerics generally wear armor and use weapons, so it messes them up, but not too terribly.

Druids are probably fine.

[Westhart]

Yes, it also gives an edge to anyone who is starting say an unarmed build using either sword sage or warblade... minimum equipment needed at that level...
also how are you going to stop them from getting equipment from other party members?

[Fouredged Sword]

A spellbook is worth more than 10gp, and I believe spell component pouches are worth 15, so it hurts classes that need those two things pretty badly.

Clerics generally wear armor and use weapons, so it messes them up, but not too terribly.

Druids are probably fine.

An EZ bake wizard would hardly notice save for a lack of a +int item that they would purchase at the first opportunity. It would be easy enough to dedicate enough class features and feats to ignore the problem long enough to scrape up a few hundred gold selling spells and retrain the feats later. The point is that the classes who benefit most from +1 class level are least bothered by a lack of equipment.

[Zanos]

Yes, it also gives an edge to anyone who is starting say an unarmed build using either sword sage or warblade... minimum equipment needed at that level...
also how are you going to stop them from getting equipment from other party members?
Other than druids, unarmed builds kind of suck anyway. The wealth loss isn't meant to be permanent from how I read OP's post, so the rest of the party giving the other PC basic equipment might be one way around it, but that's going to reduce their own wealth in turn.


An EZ bake wizard would hardly notice save for a lack of a +int item that they would purchase at the first opportunity. It would be easy enough to dedicate enough class features and feats to ignore the problem long enough to scrape up a few hundred gold selling spells and retrain the feats later. The point is that the classes who benefit most from +1 class level are least bothered by a lack of equipment.
"This is fine for wizards because of an obscure class feature printed in Dragon Mag that gives up scribe scroll, the familiar, requires a feat, and precludes having any extra starting spells at character creation?"

I think I'll just take the wealth rather than spending the equivalent of at least three feats on a class level advantage that I'd quickly lose because of how the experience system works.

[Hecuba]

What kind of feedback do you want?

Can the house-rule be exploited? Yes, absolutely - there are deliberately non-item dependent builds that can be taken for the 1 level benefit.

Will people take it? Depends on starting level and campaign length. It is far more lucrative at level 3 that level 8 and far more lucrative for a campaign running over 3-5 levels rather than 15-20.

Will it impact balance disproportionately? Yes, as you noted it will be very hard on most melee. It will also be very hard on many casters unless they build to avoid it, but it's fairly easy to avoid.

Will it be disruptive/un-fun? Depends on how many people take it and how liberal you are willing to be on facilitating your party of escaped slaves stealing\finding things like weapons, component pouches, and holy symbols.

[Fizban]

The solution to wildly imbalanced and dysfunctional parties is not more houserules to allow/incentivize/highlight ways to further imbalance and dysfunction the party.

[Zanos]

I know that this would hurt the mundanes, but it's for those players who want to make escaped slaves...
Also despite my previous comments that this system is fine except for some outlier characters, a character can be an escaped slave who then found [WBL] worth of equipment. It's not necessary to have mechanical consequences for everything.

[Grod_The_Giant]

There's a surprising elegance to this, actually-- both the wealth and level disparities will, with time, be undone by the normal process of gameplay. I'll assume that mundane equipment will be acquired shortly into your first session, because that kind of thing is dirt cheap past level 1 or 2. (At higher levels, this might well include some basic magic items as well). Meaning that, well... you get the usual caveats about mundanes being more gear-dependent than casters, and a level being worth more for a caster than a noncaster, and the higher the level the worse the disparity.

[Fouredged Sword]

Or they can send the DM a list of their equipment and that equipment can be added to the next few encounter wealth tables.

[Calthropstu]

To those saying it would be too much of a hindrance:

Challenge accepted. I could become decently equipped in the first session no matter what class I was. I'd take that level. Wealth can always be had. Levels and xp are easily better than treasure.

Within 3 sessions, I'd probably be caught up.

Of course, a sorcerer or druid would be pure win with this restriction, and someone mentioned a soulknife which would also be less affected. Same with Psion/Wilder.

But a PF magus, wizard, fighter, barbarian et al would all be horrendously affected. I'd still make it work though. Mooching off the other PCs would likely get you enough equipment to scrape together a reasonable AC and a weapon for a martial or cleric. Wizard is still kinda screwed though... which means likely having to perform services for another wizard to borrow a spellbook.

But still, I would make it work.

[Zanos]

Challenge accepted. I could become decently equipped in the first session no matter what class I was. I'd take that level. Wealth can always be had. Levels and xp are easily better than treasure..
They're both power, and I bet there's an amount of wealth in magic items I could trade you in exchange for a level. I'd probably take being level 19 with WBL than being level 20 without any items, for example.

[Calthropstu]

They're both power, and I bet there's an amount of wealth in magic items I could trade you in exchange for a level. I'd probably take being level 19 with WBL than being level 20 without any items, for example.

Agreed, there is a curve.

And yeah, the amount of power difference between lvl 19 and lvl 20 is insignificant. Sure, lvl 20 generally gets some sweet bonuses, but the overall power output increase is generally negligible. So in that case, I'd agree with you. But when we are talking lvl 6 or lvl 7, the wealth will ultimately fix itself very quickly... and it would be fun to roleplay.

[Quertus]

So, let me present two opposing points of view. Let's arbitrarily label them the Lawful and Chaotic PoV.

According to my Chaotic PoV, starting at below WBL should be treated like role-playing, arbitrarily giving your characters weaknesses for no mechanical gain, or any other self-imposed disadvantage: as something purely optional, with no mechanical benefit. It's the player choosing to play on Hard Mode. That's their choice. It has nothing to do with you, and you shouldn't interact with it.

The Lawful PoV contends that each party member should be able to contribute approximately equally. It holds that this should be treated like requiring everyone to be the same level, upper (and lower) bounds on optimization, and treasure placed to buff up weaker party members. Anything which throws this balance out of whack needs to be addressed to optimize party balance, and that's (primarily) your job to handle.

In this case, I'm going to advocate the Chaotic PoV. Why? Two reasons.

The first reason is that, 10 levels from now, even assuming equal treasure distribution, that wealth gap will have approximately equaled out. So, you're giving someone a permanent bonus for a temporary penalty.

The second big reason is because it gives your players the opportunity to practice working together as a team, to divide equipment and funds in a tactically optimal way.

Then there's all the little reasons, like how this penalizes martial characters :smallyuk:, while doing little to optimized eidetic eschew wizards.

[Zanos]

XP normalizes. Lower level characters receive more XP for the same challenges, and require less experience to level up. If you get an extra level at level 6, it's not likely to matter for all that long.

[Jon_Dahl]

What kind of feedback do you want?


The kind of excellent feedback that we have in this thread.

[Duke of Urrel]

"If you create a character that is at 6th level or higher, and you decide that your starting gold is 10 gp or less, you can add one extra level for your character. E.g. A 6th-level character with the starting gold of 10 gp would receive a level, thus becoming a 7th-level character."

I haven't spoken with my players yet, I want to speak with you guys first. (This houserule was inspired by the "No wealth PC = what CR?" thread).

I know that this would hurt the mundanes, but it's for those players who want to make escaped slaves...

There cannot be a general rule whereby a certain amount of gold is worth a certain amount of experience, given that experience means something different for every class and equipment is more important for some classes than it is for others.

However, I think it's very interesting to have players start a game under unusual circumstances, such as finding themselves in a strange city in a strange land with no money and no equipment at all – and to be fair, "no equipment" should mean: no armor, no weapons, no spellbooks, no spell component pouches, and no divine symbols as well as no money. To round out the list, what about a healthy dose of amnesia?

If this is your idea of a fun challenge and your players like the idea too, then why not go for it?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wizard is a bit of a weird case because your class features are sort of expressed in wealth (spellbook), but generally I think building specifically to take advantage of that session or so with no items will hurt you for the rest of your career.

[Coidzor]

"If you create a character that is at 6th level or higher, and you decide that your starting gold is 10 gp or less, you can add one extra level for your character. E.g. A 6th-level character with the starting gold of 10 gp would receive a level, thus becoming a 7th-level character."

No, just no, this is a terrible idea. Especially with your group. You guys need to learn how to play the game with the base rules before you make more missteps, like allowing 1.5 levels of Expert for every level of ECL allowed for a character.


(This houserule was inspired by the "No wealth PC = what CR?" thread).

That is so *not* what your takeaway from that thread should have been, dude.


I know that this would hurt the mundanes, but it's for those players who want to make escaped slaves...

Is this really so common an issue for you? Do they really have their suspension of disbelief ruined by the idea that an escaped slave could have been adventuring for a while to get those levels and that gear?



There cannot be a general rule whereby a certain amount of gold is worth a certain amount of experience, given that experience means something different for every class and equipment is more important for some classes than it is for others.

However, I think it's very interesting to have players start a game under unusual circumstances, such as finding themselves in a strange city in a strange land with no money and no equipment at all – and to be fair, "no equipment" should mean: no armor, no weapons, no spellbooks, no spell component pouches, and no divine symbols as well as no money. To round out the list, what about a healthy dose of amnesia?

If this is your idea of a fun challenge and your players like the idea too, then why not go for it?

That *can* work, if it applies to every character and the group all buys into the idea and wants to do it.

[Zanos]

There cannot be a general rule whereby a certain amount of gold is worth a certain amount of experience, given that experience means something different for every class and equipment is more important for some classes than it is for others.
The rules for creating NPCs do just that, with a 1 CR adjustment for NPCs with NPC vs PC wealth.


Wizard is a bit of a weird case because your class features are sort of expressed in wealth (spellbook), but generally I think building specifically to take advantage of that session or so with no items will hurt you for the rest of your career.
There's a good selection of classes/builds that do just fine without items for a bit, but don't really have to pay for it. Most spontaneous casters, clerics can summon a holy symbol or just carve one, I think Bards can summon an instrument, and druids of course never really need items. None of that really handicaps you later.


No, just no, this is a terrible idea. Especially with your group. You guys need to learn how to play the game with the base rules before you make more missteps, like allowing 1.5 levels of Expert for every level of ECL allowed for a character.
Er, yeah, I forgot about this. OP's group is dysfunctional as hell and should probably work on that first.

[Calthropstu]

So, let me present two opposing points of view. Let's arbitrarily label them the Lawful and Chaotic PoV.

According to my Chaotic PoV, starting at below WBL should be treated like role-playing, arbitrarily giving your characters weaknesses for no mechanical gain, or any other self-imposed disadvantage: as something purely optional, with no mechanical benefit. It's the player choosing to play on Hard Mode. That's their choice. It has nothing to do with you, and you shouldn't interact with it.

The Lawful PoV contends that each party member should be able to contribute approximately equally. It holds that this should be treated like requiring everyone to be the same level, upper (and lower) bounds on optimization, and treasure placed to buff up weaker party members. Anything which throws this balance out of whack needs to be addressed to optimize party balance, and that's (primarily) your job to handle.

In this case, I'm going to advocate the Chaotic PoV. Why? Two reasons.

The first reason is that, 10 levels from now, even assuming equal treasure distribution, that wealth gap will have approximately equaled out. So, you're giving someone a permanent bonus for a temporary penalty.

The second big reason is because it gives your players the opportunity to practice working together as a team, to divide equipment and funds in a tactically optimal way.

Then there's all the little reasons, like how this penalizes martial characters :smallyuk:, while doing little to optimized eidetic eschew wizards.

Actually, it hurts wizards more than anyone else. It is sorcerers, druids, clerics and psions who are least affected... but a wizard without his spellbook may as well be a commoner. And spells are really expensive.

[Flickerdart]

Why would an escaped slave have more levels than a regular guy?

[Kelb_Panthera]

"If you create a character that is at 6th level or higher, and you decide that your starting gold is 10 gp or less, you can add one extra level for your character. E.g. A 6th-level character with the starting gold of 10 gp would receive a level, thus becoming a 7th-level character."

I haven't spoken with my players yet, I want to speak with you guys first. (This houserule was inspired by the "No wealth PC = what CR?" thread).

I know that this would hurt the mundanes, but it's for those players who want to make escaped slaves...

I don't think this will have any -good- usability.

No non-caster will -ever- take this if he knows what he's doing. The clothes make the man with non-casters. WBL is just too important to them, well in excess of a single, temporary level. Seriously, look at what VoP gives you and remember that it's generally considered inadequate. One level gives you a -lot- less than even that.

On the flip-side; except for the archivist, wizard, and wu-jen who need their spell-books, this is a no-brainer. Their spells can make up the difference until they catch up on wealth and if the bump pushes them into the next level of spells, that's quite powerful until they level out. Worse, spellcasters can grab craft wondrous item and catch up the wealth literally -twice- as fast as their melee counterparts. At best it's a minor bump, at worst it's a wash.

You're giving melee's a hard button and casters a "meh, it could be useful" button.

[dhasenan]

However, I think it's very interesting to have players start a game under unusual circumstances, such as finding themselves in a strange city in a strange land with no money and no equipment at all – and to be fair, "no equipment" should mean: no armor, no weapons, no spellbooks, no spell component pouches, and no divine symbols as well as no money. To round out the list, what about a healthy dose of amnesia?

The DM asks people what sort of role they want to play. The DM makes character sheets. The players show up, and the DM hands out blank character sheets.

You woke up in a strange room with only basic clothing. You remember nothing. Figure out who you are. Learn what your abilities are. Escape. The campaign unfolds from there.

Not necessarily a bad idea for this group. They get the rules doled out to them a little at a time over several sessions. They can't build silly characters for themselves. They don't know whether they're powerful or weak, and a bit of forewarning will have them exploring cautiously.

[Fizban]

There's a surprising elegance to this, actually-- both the wealth and level disparities will, with time, be undone by the normal process of gameplay.

XP normalizes. Lower level characters receive more XP for the same challenges, and require less experience to level up. If you get an extra level at level 6, it's not likely to matter for all that long.
Xp normalizes, but there are no rules regarding the division of treasure. That's up to the group, and the most common method is to divide everything evenly regardless of what each person currently has, especially in the sort of groups that would make every new character start at a lower and lower level, where being the only person to survive and loot the bodies of your teammates makes you a "success." Even without that, a hard division means that you are X gold behind forever.

The rules for creating NPCs do just that, with a 1 CR adjustment for NPCs with NPC vs PC wealth.
Not in 3.5, that's a Pathfinder rule. In 3.5, PCs don't have CR, and NPCs already include the wealth reduction in CR (or rather, they are assigned CR without any regard for class or wealth).