Temp hp vs con checks

[Lolzyking]

Okay I'm not sure if my Dm is being absolutely fair with asking for concentration checks with spells.

He often forgets to ask others to roll con checks, while I (playing a sorc/lock) am asked to roll con checks every time I take any amount of damage while maintaining concentration on Hex.

Now when I actually take damage from the damage I don't mind rolling, but while I either have temp hp from fiendish vigor Or Armor of agathys, I will be asked to roll to maintain concentration even if the damage did not exceed my temporary Hp.


I want to hear some opinions on who hear would also do this or not do this.

[Rysto]

You have to make a concentration save whenever you take damage, whether it's being absorbed by temp HP or not.

[RulesJD]

Okay I'm not sure if my Dm is being absolutely fair with asking for concentration checks with spells.

He often forgets to ask others to roll con checks, while I (playing a sorc/lock) am asked to roll con checks every time I take any amount of damage while maintaining concentration on Hex.

Now when I actually take damage from the damage I don't mind rolling, but while I either have temp hp from fiendish vigor Or Armor of agathys, I will be asked to roll to maintain concentration even if the damage did not exceed my temporary Hp.


I want to hear some opinions on who hear would also do this or not do this.

Two things:

1. It's a Constitution save, not a check. It's an important difference. For example, if your first level was in Sorcerer, you get to add your Proficiency Bonus to the save (along with things like Bless, etc).

2. Yes, Temp HP is still you taking damage. The only thing that "absorbs" damage to prevent a Concentration save is the Abjuration Wizard's ward.


From a personal play standpoint, just remind him each time someone concentrating on something is hit. Or do what I do, which is put a little magnetic token under players concentrating on something to remind myself with a visual clue. Often it's just the fact that Sorlocks are always concentrating on Hex, whereas other classes are concentrating on something less often.

[Lolzyking]

Alrighty, thats why I was asking here before complaining.

also I'm aware its a save, its just my dm is always calling it a check, I know I only add my Con bonus, not my proficiency, since I'm not proficient in Con Saves.

Slipped my mind RIP

[LordVonDerp]

You have to make a concentration save whenever you take damage, whether it's being absorbed by temp HP or not.

Proof?.....

[Rysto]

Proof?.....

The plain wording of the rules?

PHB p. 198: Temporary Hit Points

When you have temporary hit points and take damage, the temporary hit points are lost first, and any leftover damage carries over to your normal hit points.

PHB p203 Concentration

* Taking Damage. Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration.

(italics mine, for emphasis)

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Proof?.....
If Rysto's response (which is absolutely correct) needs any confirmation, check out Jeremy Crawford's tweet here: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/02/temporary-concentration-dc/

When temporary hit points absorb damage for you, you're still taking damage, just not to your real hit points.

[Lolzyking]

While I'm completely willing to accept making the save while I have temp Hp, could someone Tweet the devs to see if we can get Direct, Exact Sage advice, for the specific instance of temporary hp and concentration saves.

[LordVonDerp]

If Rysto's response (which is absolutely correct) needs any confirmation, check out Jeremy Crawford's tweet here: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/02/temporary-concentration-dc/

It just seems a bit weird is all, since casters seem to be the only ones who can reliably get temp HP. Then again I guess it would be treading on the abjuration wizards' territory otherwise.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

While I'm completely willing to accept making the save while I have temp Hp, could someone Tweet the devs to see if we can get Direct, Exact Sage advice, for the specific instance of temporary hp and concentration saves.Click the link in my post. That's exactly the question Crawford was answering; having temporary HP doesn't reduce the DC of a constitution save to keep concentration. Taking damage is taking damage.

[Lolzyking]

Oh sorry I assumed that the question was that Taking damage inflicted on temp hp counts as taking damage, for effects that trigger on taking damage, like hellish rebuke.


My only issue with the question is that the inquirer had 10 temp hp, took 30 total damage, blowing the entire temp hp and was questioning if they should take 30 damage or 20 damage's DC on the save.

This doesn't answer whether the author's support a different result if the damage does not exceed the temporary hp.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

My only issue with the question is that the inquirer had 10 temp hp, took 30 total damage, blowing the entire temp hp and was questioning if they should take 30 damage or 20 damage's DC on the save.

This doesn't answer whether the author's support a different result if the damage does not exceed the temporary hp.I think it's pretty clear. If you take X damage and had Y temp HP, you still took X damage for purposes of concentration. There's no reason Y being greater than X would change that. Like the tweet said, you're still taking the same amount of damage.

[DivisibleByZero]

Oh sorry I assumed that the question was that Taking damage inflicted on temp hp counts as taking damage, for effects that trigger on taking damage, like hellish rebuke.


My only issue with the question is that the inquirer had 10 temp hp, took 30 total damage, blowing the entire temp hp and was questioning if they should take 30 damage or 20 damage's DC on the save.

This doesn't answer whether the author's support a different result if the damage does not exceed the temporary hp.

How much damage did he take?
30
Damage is damage, so it's 30. Just because 10 of them came from temp HP doesn't mean that the attack only did 20 damage. The attack did 30 damage, 10 from temp and 20 from HP. 30 damage.
So the save DC is based off of that 30 damage.

[Dalebert]

This doesn't answer whether the author's support a different result if the damage does not exceed the temporary hp.

Yeah, it did. You don't like his answer but the answer is crystal clear.

"When temporary hit points absorb damage for you, you're still taking damage, just not to your real hit points."

A concentration check is triggered whenever you take damage, not whenever your real hp are reduced.

[Lolzyking]

Then shouldn't they have gone with

"whenever you are hit" and "whenever you fail a damaging save" or "have damage inflicted on you"

and not something vague like take damage, because until you hear from the horses mouth that damage to temporary hp somehow counts as being hurt enough to flinch, you'd feel like you had an argument to make a case against it.


Because it seems more focused on the act of inflicting damage, than whether or not the damage actually hurt you.


I mean it feels perfectly logical to expect my magical barrier from whatever feature that grants me temporary protection, some even going so far as to inflict damage back at my attacker, if not fully penetrated would mean that I had not infact suffered any damage at all, my barrier was simply grazed.

[Addaran]

Then shouldn't they have gone with

1) "whenever you are hit" and 2)"whenever you fail a damaging save" or 3)"have damage inflicted on you"

and not something vague like take damage, because until you hear from the horses mouth that damage to temporary hp somehow counts as being hurt enough to flinch, you'd feel like you had an argument to make a case against it.



1) If you have resistance or HAM, you could be hit but take no damage. But would still need to do a check
2) If you fail a damaging save that does a type of damage you have immunity to, you'd still need to do a check.
3) If you are taking damage it's because damage was inflicted on you. Both phrasing means the same thing.

No matter how they write it, there will always be different interpretation or grey areas. They went with the shortest and simplest sentence.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I mean it feels perfectly logical to expect my magical barrier from whatever feature that grants me temporary protection, some even going so far as to inflict damage back at my attacker, if not fully penetrated would mean that I had not infact suffered any damage at all, my barrier was simply grazedThat may apply to magical barriers (like an Abjurer's Arcane Ward feature) but temporary hit points are not a magical barrier. They are hit points, just like any others except for a few special rules (allowing you to go above your normal hit points, not being restored by healing magic, etc.) Having a Battle Master use Rally to "bolster" your "resolve" doesn't create a magical barrier. Having an ally use the Inspiring Leader feat to give a pep talk to "shore up" your "resolve" doesn't create a magical barrier. Even spells that give you temporary hit points don't generally create a magical barrier; False Life works by "bolstering yourself with a necromantic facsimile of life" and Heroism leaves you "imbued with bravery". A magic barrier is usually something like a bonus to AC (Shield, Shield of Faith or Mage Armor) or an effect that keeps attacks from reaching you at all (Wall of Force, Resilient Sphere) and those, by keeping you from being hit with an attack/damaged/however you want to word it in the first place, keep you from making a concentration check.

If you don't agree, that's your prerogative and you're of course free to have a conversation with your DM but I'm not sure what more you expect people here to do or say for you. People have showed you the rules, linked you the answers of designers and explained the logic of both the rules and the ruling. You are wrong. I'm sorry.