Strange Spell Uses

[Korias]

My players want to know if casting shocking grasp on an ally who died last round will revive him, if he died from fear (Which can happen), as the Electricity would be simliar to an Automatic Electronic Defibrilator.

Also, they want to know if casting Burning Hands is a legitimate way to grill fish without a fire.

[Yechezkiel]

I guess that's up to you, but why would your players think defibrillating would revive anyone?

[Korias]

Cause he died of suffocation. They think they can bring him back to life if they cast it on him, as they have no more healing spells.

[Dark_Wind]

Burning hands might cook fish (it'll definitely start a fire if they cast it on the kindling, if they want to do it that way), but shocking grasp will function as a defibrilator no more than hooking someone up to a car battery would.

[Yechezkiel]

I just don't understand why a modern medical practice would come to mind to your fantasy setting players.

Then again, I don't understand players who get away with using magic to create things like titanium alloys.

[Douglas]

By RAW, it wouldn't work. D&D is, however, supposedly a simulation of the real world (plus magic) and in real world medicine an electrical shock is sometimes enough to revive someone. It's not an unreasonable house rule to let it work imo, but you should be careful what causes of death you allow it to work on and it should be uncertain (Shocking Grasp is hardly designed for this sort of thing) and have to be done very quickly.

[Yechezkiel]

Why not just say no?

"Defibrillation was first demonstrated in 1899..." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defibrillation)

[Korias]

Yechezkiel, My players are habitual metagamers. Its what they do. :sigh:

They think that they can revive an NPC who died from lack of Oxygen. And if Shocking Grasp doesnt work, they will probably move onto Lightning Bolt, or Chain Lightning.

The NPC Died 2 rounds ago (12 Seconds), so I think its within the required time limit.
I would say no, but I encourage Creativity. It keeps me and the players on our feet.

[Dhavaer]

I'd say it wouldn't work for the same reason throwing someone on an electric fence wouldn't work. The spell is designed to hurt people, you'd need to create a different, non-weaponised spell to try and revive someone.
Burning hands would probably just burn the fish. You want a lower temperature, longer duration fire to cook things; produce flame might be what they're looking for there.

[Douglas]

And if Shocking Grasp doesnt work, they will probably move onto Lightning Bolt, or Chain Lightning.
There is such a thing as too much, you know. How about it only works for death not due to hp damage, and even that is subject to chance and DM judgment, and the target still takes the damage. If they use too big a shock, they might get the heart started again for a moment only to simultaneously knock the person down to -10 hp and kill him again, this time in a manner not revivable at all by electric shock. Oh, and you might want to remind them that they can cast it at a lower caster level than they actually have as long as the level they pick is high enough to cast the spell in the first place. For a level 1 spell like Shocking Grasp, that means they can dial it all the way down to caster level 1.

[bugsysservant]

Watch it, a first level raise dead spell is a bit much. Especially for an arcane caster. Allowing this could lead to arguments about how the revived character doesn't lose a level, because people who are Defibrillated in real life don't abruptly forget major sections of their lives, and lose talents they once had. If it were up to me I would require a DC 30 heal check, and then only give it a small chance to function, on the order of 5%.

Edit: and while burning hands might be able to cook fish, more likely it would burn the outside to an unrecognizable crisp, and leave the insides raw.

[Korias]

Hes not dead yet. The character has -5 HP, and is Dying. Raise dead only works for -10 HP characters. Still, Would you as a DM let it work?

[Douglas]

Watch it, a first level raise dead spell is a bit much.
Following my suggestion, it would be a) uncertain, b) only work for save-or-die, and c) be rather hazardous to low level targets. Hmm, maybe you should make a and c linked by making the chance of success go up with the amount of damage they do. A big shock is more likely to jumpstart the heart, but it's also more likely to fry someone who's not tough enough to take it.

Also, for this particular case it sounds like they're high enough level that they should have access to Raise Dead if they really need it, so it's not that big a deal in this campaign.

[Jack Mann]

Why not just say no?

"Defibrillation was first demonstrated in 1899..." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defibrillation)

Actually, a young girl was revived after a fall from a first-story (second, for us Americans) window through the use of electric shocks applied to the chest (most likely through a Leyden jar) in 1774, though it would be many years before it would be properly understood and used regularly.

[Roog]

Hes not dead yet. The character has -5 HP, and is Dying. Raise dead only works for -10 HP characters. Still, Would you as a DM let it work?
So I take it that they have failed their Heal checks?
I might allow the use of an appropriate spell to give a circumstance bonus to a heal check, but I would not allow more magic to devalue the Heal skill.

#Edit
So he is at -5 HP, not stabilized, and has been dead for the last 2 rounds?

I would make it a very difficult heal check (say DC 30 or more, for D&D type heal skill) that must be made within a very short time of death (if I was to allow heal to revive characters from some causes of death, which may open a can of worms), with some circumstance bonus for having an appropriate spell to help (+2 to +5).

[Douglas]

Hes not dead yet. The character has -5 HP, and is Dying. Raise dead only works for -10 HP characters. Still, Would you as a DM let it work?
For death due to hp damage, no. Restarting the heart is not going to save someone who's got massive cuts all over his body and has bled out.

For this case, if they don't have any cure spells available they need to start making Heal checks. Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/heal.htm) can be used untrained, and a DC 15 heal check as a standard action can stabilize someone. Even if no one has a single rank, if you have everyone Aid Another to help the person with the highest wisdom and retry until they succeed or he's dead, they have a very good chance of saving him. Once he's stabilized, they have all the time they could possibly need to get him some real healing as long as nothing happens to him in the interim.

[Mike_Lemmer]

Hes not dead yet. The character has -5 HP, and is Dying. Raise dead only works for -10 HP characters. Still, Would you as a DM let it work?

Why don't they just do a Heal check to stabilize her, then?

If she was dead, I'd give it a snowball's chance in hell (1-in-20 chance, first time they try it), but otherwise, it just kills her.

And Burning Hands is perfect for fish frying, although it'll be flash-fried and possibly burnt to a crisp.

[Korias]

So I take it that they have failed their Heal checks?
I might allow the use of an appropriate spell to give a circumstance bonus to a heal check, but I would not allow more magic to devalue the Heal skill.

They Have. The Cleric was killed last adventure. And nobody else bothered to take ranks in it. They Metagame and Powergame too much.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

They Have. The Cleric was killed last adventure. And nobody else bothered to take ranks in it.
So? Heal can be used untrained (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/skillsAll.html#heal).

[Douglas]

So tell them to retry and use Aid Another. You can retry a first aid check to stabilize someone every time you have a standard action available to spend on it, which is once per round. If he's at -5, that means they have 5 rounds to retry over and over again until they succeed. Unless everyone has absolutely abysmal wisdom, that's almost guaranteed to work.

[SadisticFishing]

No. There is no way their characters would think of this, it's completely ridiculous for them to think they can metagame this hard - tell them that.

My group metagames a lot with things like loot ("OH NO our cleric died. you grab his stuff!"), but they're generally good about most things (pretending not to know exactly how Beholders work, for example).

Also, 5d6 is a lot of damage, and would probably be way too much electricity to actually work without burning them - a lot.

Let them use heal checks, and that's it...

IMHO :P

[Roog]

They Have. The Cleric was killed last adventure. And nobody else bothered to take ranks in it. They Metagame and Powergame too much.

Then definitely don't let them replace the use of a skill with a low-level spell. Metagameing and Powergameing should not mean they can avoid taking the skills needed to survive, if they can do it this time then they will look for spells to replace other skills (e.g. Burning Hands instead of Survival or Profession:Cook).

[Anxe]

If the NPC was necessary for the plot I would say yes, it works. On a realistic thing, no. Shocking Grasp deals enough damage to be more harmful than good.

[JackMage666]

I doubt that Burning Hands would cook a fish, sorry. Think of it like tossing a fish over a fire for 3 seconds. It would warm it up a bit, but certainly not cook it. They could, however, start a fire with it and actually cook it over time.
Also, you'd need special equipment if you wanted to do anything but Char-grill the food. I suppose a well made preastplate or full-plate could be used as an open style stovetop, but it might also destroy the armor.
You'd need a specially made piece of equipment to grill anything in the modern, traditional sense.
If they're cooking Salmon, though, they can eat it raw. So long as it's cut properly, and clean, it's safe.

[Dervag]

They think that they can revive an NPC who died from lack of Oxygen.First of all, it would be extremely unlikely to work; give the caster a high DC Heal check to make, possibly combined with a high DC Spellcraft check. The Heal check is because a defibrillator is worse than useless if you don't know what to do with it, and the Spellcraft check is because you have to 'tune' the spell to a very unusual function.


And if Shocking Grasp doesnt work, they will probably move onto Lightning Bolt, or Chain Lightning.If they have Chain Lightning they should have Raise Dead, and Raise Dead would be a much better choice. I would personally rule that striking the body with a lightning bolt would have no use other than causing serious damage to the body.


Hes not dead yet. The character has -5 HP, and is Dying. Raise dead only works for -10 HP characters. Still, Would you as a DM let it work?No, and if he's not dead yet then these guys are insane to try it in the first place. They would be far better advised to use the Heal skill or a tiny amount of magical healing (Cure Minor Wounds, for instance) to stabilize him.

As it stands, I would rule that the magic-user has one chance at this, that it will almost certainly fail, and that if he fails then he will kill the guy with the damage from the spell.

I really can't overstate how stupid these guys' plan is. This isn't creative. It's just dumb.

And if they don't have the medical skills to restart someone's breathing by nonmagical means (such as squeezing the water out of their chest or trying artificial respiration), then they aren't going to have any real chance of making a defibrillator work, especially not an improvised one that shouldn't work by all sanity.

[Dhavaer]

If you really want to give them a chance that this might work, make it a coup-de-grace and say that if the guy saves on a 20, he stabilises and becomes conscious. Anything else, takes full damage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm sorry, but I lost count of how many catgirls died during this thread...

Say it with me people: Real Life Physics do not apply to D&D.

No, you cannot use a Shocking Grasp as an impromptu defibrulator. In the first place, no one has invented the concept of debibrulation yet. In the second, even if it had, it would certainly require ranks in Heal or some Knowledge (medical field) to be able to know how to use it properly. In the third, if there was no cleric, the party was dumb for continuing on without at LEAST a rogue with UMD and a CLW wand.

Sorry, this is munchkinning at it's most iconic. I would never let this fly.

And, as mentioned, for cooking a fish, you need low heat over great duration. Burning Hands would get you a raw fish with a shell of char around it, or just a burned cinder. Produce Flame would be better for this, but the best way would be to use the fire spell to start a fire to cook it over. If Continual Flame worked, it would be ideal... but since it's basically a conversion of Continual Light from 2e, it doesn't give off heat, so it wouldn't work.

This is what I call McGuyver'ing... taking a bit of this and a bit of that and comming up with a solution to your problem. It's another take on the 'Bounce a Graviton Particle Beam off the Main Deflector Dish' from Trek that let them continually win in the face of adversity.

[brian c]

If they're cooking Salmon, though, they can eat it raw. So long as it's cut properly, and clean, it's safe.

Thank you Bear Grylls.



I'd say it wouldn't work for the same reason throwing someone on an electric fence wouldn't work. The spell is designed to hurt people, you'd need to create a different, non-weaponised spell to try and revive someone.

That's what I was thinking; obviously this won't help them at the moment, but if someone wants to research a Defibrillate spell that should be fine. Something like "Returns a dead person to 0 hp; death must not have been a result of direct damage (or any indirect magic, such as Slay Living, wouldn't be fair to make a low level counter)"

[Neek]

I was a DM when my players wanted to do this. I ruled it this way (I think): If you do enough damage to NOT kill them, you stabilized the body. A heal check has a greater chance of success.

[tainsouvra]

Would you as a DM let it work? As long as they're metagaming, tell them to metagame right. :smalltongue:

Defib is high-volt, low amp. This causes a strong muscle response without causing major damage/burns.

Shocking Grasp is very high amp, low/undetermined volt. This causes possibly-fatal damage without necessarily causing a strong muscle response.

Shocking Grasp would basically be a coup, killing him instantly with no hope of reviving him.


Say it with me people: Real Life Physics do not apply to D&D. Even if it did, this wouldn't work. The RL physics don't work that way. :smallsmile:

[The_Werebear]

I say let them try on a tuned down version of the spell, but only have it give them a +5 on the heal check to stabilize.

[FoxHush]

As far as the burning hands they can't use it to start a fire?
For it working on a fish i think it could it would chare the outside, it be tasty if they did it on something larger.



Magical blacken salmon.

[Yiel]

I am not sure about the medical safety of trying to revive someone with shocking grasp. :smalleek:

As for the fish? Well I guess if the fish had no spell-resistence, failed its saving throw, and was wrapped in some medieval foil with a slice of lemon... it could be quite nice :smallbiggrin: If not, feed it to the fighter and tell them its a delicacy!

[PsyBlade]

Shocking Grasp is not a viable means of healing. Now I can see an adaptation of the Daze Spell working. Change it to a lightning type spell, say 'Spark of Life', still has combat uses but now provides a +3 circumstance bonus to Heal Checks. They have to first understand Volts and Amps though.

Also, I think Burning Hands is best used for lighting the fire to be used to cook fish, not cooking fish.

[Serpentine]

Right. I would've thought that if they're only at -5HP, their heart would still be beating, and so there'd be no point. Also, you wouldn't want it to work like a defibrillator anyway - a defibrillator stops fibrillation (thus the name), in which each fibre of the heart fires independently of the others (which would look like a whole lot of random zigzags on the screeny-whatsit), while what they're trying to do is start a stopped heart (*beeeeeeeeep* _________). Whether or not a burst of electricity would work for that... I don't know, but I'd probably try to think about it the same way I'd consider whether a fireball would set things on fire.

[CASTLEMIKE]

This is a classic case of Player versus PC knowledge. Until the last century CPR wasn't common knowledge much less a specialized trained healing check for first aid.

CPR and Electroshock have only become Common Knowledge in the last several decades. Just because you are aware of CPR or Electro shock it doesn't mean you are qualified and able to perform it correctly and improperly performed it can do much more harm than good. It is not unusual for properly performed CPR to break ribs.

Unless a PC can make a healing knowledge check with a DC 15 for the First Aid check to do CPR. Why would the PCs think damaging the body more would save the PC's life? Statistically between several PCs one of them should make the check particularly if you roll the dice and choose to fudge the roll for one of them if all of them fail.

If they cast Shocking Grasp on the body instead of making first aid checks have the PC roll for damage.

The cantrip Electric Jolt would be a better spell to use as to much electricity to the body just damages it further.

If you stuck the two leads of a stripped Plug wire into a hot dog and then insert the plug into an electric outlet with the hot dog in a hotdog bun on an insulated board or rubber mat it normally cooks in about 15 seconds. Current cooks which is why the Shocking Grasp spell does damage. .1 amp for 1 second is all it takes to kill someone stopping your heart. Shocking Grasp does more

[AslanCross]

I'd say even physics-wise (I hear Catgirls being smote by heavenly wrath) that the Shocking Grasp would burn the recipient more than it could start a heart.

[Roupe]

CASTLEMIKE beat me to it... to some extent. If the player uses his off-game knowledge to influence his character , thats almost another issue.

But nevertheless here is some of my views .

It needs the appropriate skill check for the desired result. Using spells would affect the skill for example as a improvised tool penalty. there would be a trade off with The penalty vs the benifital modifier, ill leave that for now

For example
A success in heal skill could grant the player to have & use the spell as a succesful tool to stabalize the victim. where as a failure & botch wouldnt.

Oh and just because the someone has seen that a thing/spell (etc) can be done (or that it is benefitial for the task), doesnt mean that said someone can do it as well, or get a postive modifier for using it untrained. Especially if he doesnt have the skill to start with.

or knowledge that it can be done, isnt the knowledge on how to succesfully do it

Theory vs Practice

[Overlard]

How I'd do it:

DM: So you cast shocking grasp.
*rolls a dice behind the DM screen, disregards the result, winces*
DM: Unlucky. Roll damage.

Someone at -5 isn't dead. Using shocking grasp on them is like hooking up someone to the mains when they've been injured, but are still alive and breathing. Of all the things it's going to do, helping them isn't going to be one of them.

[draca]

Hes not dead yet. The character has -5 HP, and is Dying. Raise dead only works for -10 HP characters. Still, Would you as a DM let it work?

Oi, what in interesting dilemma. I’d call this a longshot at best, but I encourage creativity.

So which is it? Is he dead and in need of reviving, or is he dying and in need of stabilization?

If he’s at -5 and falling and went down due to suffocation, and you want to metagame using real life medical knowledge/ideas, then he needs CPR not a defibrillator.

Defibrillation ONLY works to restart the heart, and it very dangerous, even when used correctly. If he is suffocating, then he needs AIR not shock. It’s been a while since I had my first aide/CPR class at the Red Cross but I do remember clearly that if you defib someone who is not in cardiac arrest, then you will cause it. It will stop a healthy heart.

Let them make a heal check, and lock lips with the poor guy, then stimulate the heart and the diaphragm through chest compressions (which can break ribs if you do them wrong). Anyone can attempt a heal check untrained.

If his heart is stopped, then well, sure why not let them try to zap him. I’d allow any strange use of a spell, as an on-the-fly modification of a spell. Since whoever your caster is doesn’t have time to research the variant version of socking grasp that will act as a defibrillator, then perhaps a high DC Spellcraft check would be in order for them to try to think of a way to channel the energies differently then they were originally learned.

[Bender]

I'd probably give it a chance, just because it's fun. If it fails, I'd have the corpse rise and run around like a beheaded chicken for a while. Makes absolutely no sense, but can be rather funny.

For the cooking with burning grasp, I'd require a cooking skill check. Essentially the same as normal cooking, but faster without the need to light a fire.

I'm in favour of allowing these kind of things, as long as it's not abusive. In these two cases, the problem is easily solved otherwise, they just chose a more risky approach. Why not?

[Ethdred]

I'd probably give it a chance, just because it's fun. If it fails, I'd have the corpse rise and run around like a beheaded chicken for a while. Makes absolutely no sense, but can be rather funny.

Yeah, I think I can go with that. I mean, obviously it's a bloomin' stupid idea and not related to powergaming or metagaming - it's just stupid. It's like hitting someone with a sword to stop their nosebleed. But I probably would have cracked up at the table if one of my players had suggested it and given it a chance of success directly equal to the amount I laughed. And the headless chicken idea would have been the ultimate - especially since I would have played it at first like the idea had worked.

[magicwalker]

No, that's a bit much of a metagame. Unless the world is advanced medically, the characters _should_ have no idea that electricity can be used to restart someones heart. It would make more sense for them to use CPR, but even that is a stretch.

NPC is dead, lets see them work around this.

[Virgo]

Well, if they're only suffocating, then they shouldn't really need CPR at all; the airway needs to be unblocked. So your players could try to intibate or even rig a dagger into the proper setup for an emergency tracheotomy. I think that would be a Perform(Minor Surgery) check. :smallsmile:

[valadil]

Even if your characters have knowledge of defibrilation, what gives them the idea that that is what this person needs? Did he have a heart attack? Are they aware he had a heart attack? What if he's just suffering a concussion.

IMO I think you should decide how to handle this and NOT tell the players. This is a risky improvisation at best and they need to understand the risk part of it. If they want to do it, make them commit to it and then tell them the results. If I were GMing I'd make them roll damage and if that didn't outright kill the other PC I'd consider letting him get revived on a nat 20, depending on my mood.

Also for those of you debating whether or not a level 1 arcane spell should be able to duplicate the effects of a raise dead, I think there actually is a 5th level divine spell called revive which lets you bring someone back with no ill effects provided they died one round ago. I'm guessing it's in complete divine. Might be more accurate to compare against that than against raise dead itself.

[Elana]

Sure it works.

it revives him, set his HP to -9 and then delivers damage :)

[cody.burton]

Cause he died of suffocation. They think they can bring him back to life if they cast it on him, as they have no more healing spells.

If they're going to try to use player knowledge and metagame and bring RL physics into DnD, they should at least do it right. Defibrillation only works in two cases: ventricular fibrillation or ventricular tachycardia. Neither of these are caused by suffocation.

Also, if they are at -5 hit points, they are still alive and their heart is still working. When they get to -10, their heart will stop because of lack of oxygen and since it will be completely stopped, defibrillation will not help.

If you think it would be fun or funny, by all means, let them try, but if it were me, I would rule that there is no actual chance of it working. In game terms, it makes no sense that they would know the first thing about defibrillation or that they can use a damage spell to heal. In RL, defibrillation wouldn't help - they would need rescue breathing and possibly CPR.

[Kryzilya]

I doubt that Burning Hands would cook a fish, sorry. Think of it like tossing a fish over a fire for 3 seconds. It would warm it up a bit, but certainly not cook it. They could, however, start a fire with it and actually cook it over time.
Also, you'd need special equipment if you wanted to do anything but Char-grill the food. I suppose a well made preastplate or full-plate could be used as an open style stovetop, but it might also destroy the armor.
You'd need a specially made piece of equipment to grill anything in the modern, traditional sense.
If they're cooking Salmon, though, they can eat it raw. So long as it's cut properly, and clean, it's safe.

A sudden blast of heat might be able to cook it, if it was hot enough. Also, there's no way a breastplate or any other crafted metal item would be ruined by a minor fire spell. Casting a spell directly on the armor in order to cook the fish would simply heat up the metal to a point of scalding heat, which would be plenty to cook a fish. Fish only needs to be cooked until it reaches 135 degrees in its core...not a really long time. Versus a piece of metal, which has a much higher melting point than anything a minor fire spell could do. At most it would probably form a black film over the armor and keep anyone from wearing it until it had cooled down.

To put it simply, putting a pot or pan over a fire (or even into a 450-degree oven) doesn't ruin said pot or pan...why would it ruin a piece of plate armor?

[Inyssius Tor]

It would be greasy, and smell like fish, and have melted-on bits of fish all over it forever after.

And... if a sudden blast of flame was hot enough to cook the inside properly, it would be hot enough to ruin the outside.

[Kyace]

Thank you Bear Grylls.
I have nothing of use to say about the OP other than I think the players are nuts, but I must say brian's quip made me smile.

[Thurge Of Ages]

Why use a spell to cook the fish when you can just have sushi :smallbiggrin:

[Hyfigh]

I'm always up for letting my players be creative. I'd say give this to them once but make them aware that it was just by sheer luck that it worked.

I like to see people use the normal, mundane spells in extraordinary ways.

[redwood]

My players want to know if casting shocking grasp on an ally who died last round will revive him, if he died from fear (Which can happen), as the Electricity would be simliar to an Automatic Electronic Defibrilator.


I think it's a great question. Although I interpret the question as "Does the arcane caster know whether any of his spells (e.g., shocking grasp) could help stabilize this dying NPC?" After all, the caster has studied these spells enough to master their offensive use. Perhaps s/he also knows of (or has been taught) such beneficial side effects.

With that assumption--as a DM--I'd rule that by using up the spell, he could add the spell level as a bonus to a heal check. With a failed heal check (or maybe missed by 5 or more) causing the spell to do damage rather than helping stabilize.

Hmm. Also might require an initial Knowledge (arcane) check to know how to use spells to aid in a Heal check.

[BardicDuelist]

The only way that burning hands could damage the breastplate is to possibly distemper it. It could lose carbon and thus become less strong as the metal expanded. It wouldn't melt, just have the iorn crystaline structure expand enough to let the cabon atoms out.

Really though, in a fantasy setting where a fireball and heat metal have not lasting effects on armor, this wouldn't happen.

The shocking grasp idea is dumb.

[Wooter]

Using a breastplate and heat metal to make a frying pan would be a good idea.